If we practised emotional intelligence like a skill, what would change at work?

Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Holding It Both Ways, the podcast for leaders that looks at the intersection and difficulties around the idea between leadership and humanities. And today, as we always have, an amazing guest for you. Now, This guest, I will tell you, is not only an amazing guest that I hope you enjoy, she is an amazing friend. And if you have ever read any of my content, whether it be any of the 4 books that I've read, the one published, still giving away 100 first free copies, or all the regular publications, newsletters and so forth, or the 18 million words about leadership, inclusion, gender, and everything about societal socialization, you have this lady to think about why I write so avidly. It's my dear friend Amanda. Hi, Amanda.

Hi, Cynthia Fortlage.

Thank you so much for being here with me today. I really appreciate it.

Pleasure.

I wonder if you could let the audience know a little bit about who is Amanda. Like, why would Cynthia want to hang out with this really amazing person?

I'm still asking myself that question. Good. Well, asking myself who is and why. Um, so I am first and foremost an executive coach. That's who I am currently. And I've been, um, coaching for 13 years, a trained coach for 13 years. Before that, I had an almost 20-year career in digital media. And, um, so I have built businesses, run businesses. I've been an entrepreneur my whole career, and I had the opportunity to switch careers, like I said, into coaching about 13 years ago. So I am now co-CEO of a coaching company called Equal Talent. We specialize in coaching for inclusion, for belonging. We champion the, the minority groups in organizations, um, which means for the most part we do lots of women's coaching programs, um, and we're perhaps best known for a program called She Has No Limits, which helps women to design the careers that they deserve.

Love it, love it.

Yep.

You're also a wonderful mom to two amazing boys.

So thank you. Yeah, yeah, very much work in progress.

Progress, always, always. But you're doing an amazing job, at least from my point of view. Um, let's start with where we met, because it wasn't specifically in She Has No Limits, but that was really beyond our casual acquaintance. That's really when we started to get to know each other. Was through that aspect as I was participating in the She Has No Limits community that you invited me to join. How did that come about?

So, um, when the pandemic hit in 2020, as a coaching business, we lost around 80% of our sales pipeline. Um, pretty much all the organisational conversations we were having at the time dried up because organisations were worrying about bigger, more urgent problems than how to develop their talent and their leaders. Um, so we very quickly realised that we needed to do something fairly drastic and different. And so our pivot was that we created an online community for women. And you'll remember, Cynthia, at the time that everybody, of course, was, was struggling in their own different way, but we were starting to see some very worrying statistics coming out about the gender disparity of of redundancy, who was picking up the slack with the homeschooling. And, you know, I, I always hesitate to generalize and to be gendered because, mm-hmm, there are some amazing dads out there who are very hands-on, and there are some amazing inclusive leaders out there who really look out for their women and, and other minority groups. So Um, there were lots of women needing help at the time, lots of women who were finding themselves feeling stuck, undervalued, and very fearful for their future careers. So we started to offer coaching through Zoom. Um, prior to the pandemic, I think the coaching industry were the only people using Zoom, so that was, that was a fairly seamless transition for us. Um, so we were running group coaching sessions coaching webinars over a period of 18 months. We did 2 annual conferences online. We attracted over 800 women on those conference days and put on for them a whole suite of experts to help them to regain the confidence that they need to be able to carry on, pick themselves up, and, um, you know, keep focused on their careers.

Yeah, that's amazing. I mean, but I mean, when I look at as a friend is that we've talked about, you know, kind of your journey through the organizations that you were building and part of in your early career cycle. But even back to schooling, from what I know about you and some of the amazing other friends I've met, that you've had a very strong group of women around you, at least through your latter school years and really through your whole life. Has that been an influence for you in terms of the work you're doing?

Absolutely. And I don't think I really realized that, you know, until a few years ago. Okay. So I went to a girls' grammar school. And so team sports was all girls, everything was all girls. And I am a sporty kind of gal, so I played netball and hockey. And then when I went to university, I was very excited that they had a women's rugby club because I'd watched my brother play rugby, my dad follow the game and go to all the internationals, and I felt sidelined. So I grabbed that opportunity and joined the Sheffield University Ladies Rugby Club, and oh my goodness, those girls, they are still my, my scaffolding in life. They really are. And there's something about the game of rugby, and I'm so, so happy that so many women are experiencing this now. That gives us a physicality to that connection and trust and relationship, um, because we are literally trained to physically protect one another on the pitch. And so the bonds that we develop are so close. And don't get me wrong, you know, we had our spats down the pub, we've had lots of tears over the years, but we've really, really invested interested in our, um, in our sisterhood. So yes, by the time I finished university, I'd done 10 years of, um, learning how to bond with other women in team and group environments.

Yeah, I mean, it shows when I'm with it. And, and I don't know how you do this But if there's a secret, please tell us. But I never feel like an outsider when I'm with that group. I feel very included. And I mean, I know that one of your core values is inclusion, but oh my gosh, this group of women, they do it amazingly well. But is that attributable to something? Was there a magic formula you were given that you can share?

We were a diverse bunch. Again, rugby— another great thing about the game of rugby is that there is a position on the team for everyone. It doesn't matter what your shape or size is, it doesn't matter whether you can run fast or slow, it doesn't matter how strong or less strong you are, there is a position for you in rugby. And so it attracts, um, in the case of the women's game more so, I think, lots of different kinds of women. Women start playing rugby, um, uh, the men's game I think has a more elite history to it. It was taught more in private schools, still is today. I know, you know, from my kids' PE journey so far that, you know, it's— you have to look harder to find the rugby opportunities than you do football.

Okay.

But in our group, we had lots of LGBTQ, not as much as the women's football team, by the way, which still stands true to this day in terms of all the differences in the sports. We had one of my, one of my close friends decided to transition from female to male towards the end of our university career, and we had players of color, and for, for many of us, that was our first experience of diversity. 18 years old, a lot of us came from, you know, very parochial or, um, you know, didn't, didn't necessarily come from, from the big city.

Yeah.

So we, we learnt acceptance from a formative age, and we learnt the value of difference from a formative age.

I, I know that you know that acceptance is a big word for me, and I really appreciate you using it. How does, for you, how does acceptance become real? Like, how is that the right word for you to use in that moment? I appreciate you're using it because it's a word I use, but I know you've used it other times when I've been listening in on, you know, on a Zoom call or something, and you're using it without necessarily acknowledging or recognizing that I'm in the room. So I know we've spoke lots about it. Why does it resonate and anchor that it's a word that you use in your vocabulary?

So I think from my, um, team sports playing, rugby playing days, um, it was an unconscious understanding of what the word meant, a felt sense, an experiential sense. It wasn't until I trained to become a coach that I really started to understand the, the shift required in mindset and belief systems if we want to practice acceptance. I do think it is a a really valuable trait and a really important skill in leaders today. And for me, it's— it goes hand in hand with non-judgment. Um, actually, when you asked me to introduce myself, I, I failed to mention that I am now, training people to be coaches as well. So an organization called The Coach House, and, um, we are, um, facilitating the accreditation of the next generation of coaches. And it's amazing work, and I love doing it. Very, um, privileged work. And when you train to become a coach, you learn so much about yourself, why you are who you are. And it's not an easy journey, you know. We discover blind spots, we discover things about ourselves that we don't like and that we want to change. And then of course, no, change is really hard, and you know, change has to come from within. But one of the skills you're taught when you learn to become a coach is to practice non-judgment. There is no judgment allowed in a coaching space. We talk about, um, the phrase unconditional positive regard. The coach must keep the coachee feeling safe, able to do their best, and uninhibited thinking.

Yeah.

And they also need to feel not judged. In that intimate space. So I have learned and now train other people to practice the skill of non-judgment and acceptance, and it is really hard, okay, because the way that our brains are designed and, um, the most primal part of our brain, the amygdala, um, is still there to this day to keep us safe and to protect us from harm or potential harm. And one of the indicators of potential harm is difference. Yeah. So, you know, this is why— and he's not gonna thank me for sharing this— but my 11-year-old still doesn't really hang around with girls because they're still so different to him. He has a wariness to them. They're just so different to him. Yeah. Uh, so we see it very obviously in children, that kind of caution, precaution, and that wariness. And of course, we see it every day in adulthood as well. Um, you know, whether it's, um, glances on the street or whether it's, um, a, an, a lack of capacity to trust in the workplace.

Yeah, I have to say, and this has not happened on the more than half a dozen shows that we've recorded so far, but you just gave me an aha moment and I want to share it very quickly. But as you well know, and the audience wouldn't, but for about the first 8 years, I mean, I've been doing inclusion-related work for almost a decade now, and for about the first 8 years, I did not work with men in men's groups. Not that men weren't in a group, but specifically men. I wasn't advocating for men. I wasn't including men in the inclusion work that I did because they scared the bejesus out of me. And it was because I recognized the difference. I've always said it was because I understood how they were socialized and what, quote, the identity difference meant. My one leader with two genders experience. But I think it was actually coming from my amygdala that was now switched, that, if you will, biologically switched and said, well, hang on, you're not that group anymore. You need to protect yourself. You need to be careful in that space. Until I leapt through that, which took me 2 years of work. So to your point, yeah, it takes a while when you realize a block. It can take For me, it's measured in years sometimes to get through this particular kind of block. I don't know if that's a surprise to you because usually you go, "Man, I'm glad she finally got it." But do you see that kind of aha moment happening when you're teaching others to be coaches and building these skills? Because you also use some of these skills outside of teaching other coaches. You do it within organizations and so forth. I know from some of the work you've done. Uh, did, did something different just happen, or is this— you're going like, oh yeah, it happened again, because this happens all the time for you.

It's very hard to find courageous leaders who will do this kind of work. Who want to do this kind of work. So, you know, taking the horse to water is hard, and, and it's because it's fear-based work. Okay, so I have had the privilege of facilitating confidential spaces for leaders coming together as a team or as a board to look themselves in the eye, to look in the mirror, and to ask the question, how can we do better?

Yeah.

However, often the intervention or the activating event that causes them to pick up the bat phone to someone like me for external help is when— and you'll excuse my French because I know how fluent you are these days— when the shit hits the fan. When the shit's— okay, so something's happened in the organization and someone's been accused of discrimination or prejudice, um, etc.

Yeah.

And so I commend those leaders who are courageous enough to do this work. Um, but it does, like I said, it starts with the self and looking at ourselves and understanding why we are who we are and why we have bias, because we all have bias. We do.

I do too.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we all have all kinds of bias, you know, hundreds of different—

and we may not even know what bias we have, right?

Exactly. Yeah. And we're never going to know until we look in the mirror and do that work one-to-one with a coach or a therapist. Is really hard to do that work in the context of being a leader and leading a team of leaders. Um, you have to have a lot of vulnerability, and you have to have a high level of motivation to want to better yourselves as human beings and leaders for the benefit of the organization.

Yeah, I— and you're absolutely right. And I love in that point, whether you realized it or not, you made a very clear differentiation because I talk about it, you know, as a certified mentor. I always make sure people don't confuse that I'm a coach. And you talked about that idea of that work that's either done with the coach or a therapist to do it. That's not a work a mentor would do. A good mentor would go, "Hang on, you need somebody else to take you through that part. And then, once you're kind of through that part, you can come back and I can mentor you. But I can't mentor you through that because that is very much a trained skill that's not experientially based as a mentor and the depth that I bring to that conversation." That becomes a very clear space where when you need a coach versus when you might need a mentor. And even though there's bits of crossover, I think in some of the work we end up doing with people, that is a very clear indicator for me of something I would never venture to try and do with somebody. I mean, I still run to my therapist to help me at times or go for a walk with you. So, um, I love kind of, you know, where we've been, but I guess how did your work in being an entrepreneur early on in the organizations and, um, you know, at least one of the organizations, I believe, in the, the digital space was not a small company, um, that you had built. It was I mean, many small entrepreneurs wish they could build a business to that kind of— what did you learn about leadership that perhaps shaped the journey that you're on today, um, from that early experience?

Gosh, what a question. I was very fortunate to have some fantastic role models. Um, they were entrepreneurs themselves, and they wanted to bring about change. They were very innovative. You know, at the time, it was, um, we were just going into the dot-com boom, and this, this new fandangled thing called the internet— everybody was trying to make money out of it. Yeah, we would use metaphors or analogies like, you know, it's the Wild West and we're all digging for gold. So, um, you know, there was lots of opportunity, um, to make money and to innovate and create with tech.

Mhm.

And so this attracted the, the bold and the brave. Yeah. And those capable of adapting and being comfortable with change. And I think it's, it's that— it is, um, the skill of managing, leading, being comfortable with the uncomfortable. And the, um, that is the, this, the, the golden thread through my career. Yeah.

Wow. So what does the future look like? Because obviously the world's very different today, has been the last couple of years, right? It's been changing quite a bit. We seem to come out of the idea of the pandemic and everybody thought, oh well, it's like the roaring 1920s, we're all going to be, you know, just having, you know, a high time of life. Life is going to be good, it's going to be plentiful. Hasn't exactly been like that, and certainly not for everybody. What are the common themes that you're seeing come up? And I don't know if you have gazed into your crystal ball, but based upon what you're seeing, what people— is there trajectory you're kind of watching? Like, and I'm not talking politics, I'm not talking, you know, I'm really talking these broad ideas as leaders leading people, what is it that, you know, we need to be aware of, that we need to be plugged in, or we need to get educated about?

So I have a perhaps biased view of what, um, what it is to be a good leader. And that view is that the, the toolkit of a successful leader is emotional intelligence. So when I use the phrase emotional intelligence, I'm referring to a toolkit that has about 10 skills in it. So for those who have up until this point um, when they use the phrase emotional intelligence, think it's one skill— empathy. It's not. It's much more complex than that, and fascinating. So emotional intelligence are the skills of, um, how we become aware of ourselves, recognize ourselves, manage ourselves, Mm-hmm. Also the skills of being able to understand, empathize with, and support and influence others.

Mm-hmm.

If we break it down into specific competencies or skills, we're talking about self-awareness, self-confidence, self-reliance, self-actualization, straightforwardness, adaptability, optimism, empathy, relationship skills, and probably a couple more that I can't grab at the moment. And so within that kit you have, um, skills that if you can practice and master them as a leader it will put you in a really good place to be able to lead people. Mm-hmm. And despite all of the complexity, ambiguity, uncertainty, volatility in this world today, and in, in, in the economy, You're able to lead them with confidence and to make them feel safe or safer, um, to reassure them that whilst you don't have all of the answers, that somehow together we will work it out and find a way. You have the skills to be able to understand what they're going through emotionally psychologically, mentally. And mental health, it, you know, is, is the biggest— you know, the decline in mental health is the biggest pandemic of our lifetime. And one of the trends that we're seeing is that for all of the benefits that the hybrid and distributed workplace gifts us.

Mhm.

It is making so many of us feel lonely, isolated, cut off.

That's interesting because you don't read about that often.

No, there are studies out there. They're coming from the field of psychology more than they are from business schools. There's some coming from business schools. A lot of leaders, Cynthia Fortlage, don't want that narrative out there.

Yeah.

Because if they're running tech companies, for example, and tech drives growth, of course it does, then as long as people are doing the work and they can work from anywhere, but I don't think we're really paying attention to psyche of the modern-day worker, and we're not really focused enough on what their emotional needs are in order that they can thrive and perform well in their jobs. And, you know, one— many of those needs pertain to their social needs, being around people Feeling part of a team, um, receiving regular positive encouragement and, and critical feedback as well in order to grow. Knowing that somebody has their back, and also just having that sense of team or family or belonging, you know. I had that in my 20s and 30s and, you know, going into my— well, way up until the pandemic, right? And, um, it, it's, it's one of the reasons we get out of bed in the morning and go to work. Yeah. To be with others, to learn from others, to build with others and grow with others.

Yeah, I mean, that makes complete sense, and certainly It's not a topic that I've written about. I mean, I talk about psychological safety. I talk about the fact, you know, some of the pros of quote distributed work where there are aspects of marginalized communities. I'm thinking, you know, perhaps those that have various neurodiverse challenges, those that might have physical challenges and even other marginalized community members who might be amazing employees. But for some reason, they don't look or fit in. But in a distributed work environment, they can. And therefore, we're able to kind of address, you know, if you will, the chronic underemployment through remote work of many communities. But, you know, I've also written about why companies do this. There's lots of reasons, including the fact that certainly in corporate office space, most companies are writing 10-year or longer leases on spaces. They're committed. They have a hard cost. They need people in the office. They can't just repurpose it to housing or something else. And commercial buildings are not designed for housing needs. So there's all of that. But I have not written about that specific topic. It's not a specific area of focus of mine. So I'm glad that you you have that capability. And I'm glad that, um, you know, as a part of the cooperative work that we talk about and that we share, that, um, that, that resource is there, um, you know, that people could tap into. So whether they're working, you know, with me, that I can still get them to connect with you and to tap into all of that depth of knowledge, which is amazing. If that's the case with kind of what we're missing, and that obviously speaks to the going forward that we need to be looking at this really almost as a third element beyond the aspect I talked about in kind of the hard financials that companies talk about. There is this aspect of community and organizational culture development. Although many executives, including myself, we kind of cringe when we hear that phrase. Because it usually comes with a lot of dollar signs and is nebulous at times to deal with. Is there any other aspect that you commonly find you're having to address that if we don't start getting on top of it now, it's going to become a major future problem? I don't know if you look at some of the challenges in that way. You know, I try and work in kind of 5, 10-year windows, trying to anticipate where things might lead. Um, is there anything that stands out for you from that space? I, I don't know that there may be, but—

so I think the other one that, um, I wanted to speak to is, um, this idea of, um, a need for control and letting go of that, balancing that need for control. So, you know, if we think about it, when, when the world is so chaotic and there are so many things that we're worrying about that are outside of our control, You know, whether that's global politics or pandemics, whether that is, um, you know, business strategy, or indeed other people. You know, we cannot change other people. We can influence them, but we can't change them. So what happens is when, when that the more that we feel out of control, the human mind tries to control. And that's the reaction. And so what we see in our day-to-day working lives is lots of micro examples of people trying to control. Whether that is controlling the narrative or whether it's controlling the project, whether it's trying to control others and what they— how they think and what they do. Micro-management. So whilst it's completely understandable that we're all grasping for more control, It's not healthy.

Mm-hmm.

We also need to understand that it's fairly futile, um, when we try, and we can probably make ourselves quite ill trying to. So the only things in life that we can control are our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.

Mm-hmm.

And just knowing that is quite liberating because it's an invitation to stop worrying about all the rest of it. Just hone in on what we're thinking, what we're feeling, what we're believing, what the story that we're telling ourselves, and how that influences behavior. And often the thinking in, in, in these crazy times is fear-based. And so the challenge that we have is to change the thinking, change the beliefs, reframe them, rewrite them to more positive thoughts so that we can change our behaviors to be more forward-focused, more about what's possible, about, about how we can build and achieve and grow together.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it reminds me of a friend of mine early in my career, and unfortunately he had a heart attack and he was in the hospital. I went to visit him and I said, you know, John, this is, you know, like, what have you learned from this experience? Like, you're gonna have to take it easy. He goes, well, What I've learned is 90% of things I can't control anyway. And I go, good, good. I go, what about the other 10%? Goes, doesn't matter. And that whole idea was like, yeah, like we have this perception that comes with a title that all of a sudden has responsibility, but One of the things that I know that I did that I believe kind of speaks to what you're doing is I re-engineered a $3 million acquisition budget. And I moved the point of decision closer to the person that was actually impacted. So, I mean, it was in tech. So, for instance, the person who most was impacted by having to buy PCs and replace you know, desktop equipment was the help desk lead. So, we gave them that authority. I can tell you it was really hard. It was easy to engineer on paper how that was going to go. And I would give them responsibility. But you see, here's the kicker. And I don't know if you would agree is I can give them the authority to do that. But as the leader in that department and for that budget, I always hold responsibility. I'm always accountable. And that's something that only comes with trust. And I always said, well, if you don't trust the employee to make that decision to do their job, why are they in the job? Like, you don't even trust your employee. And that for me was a hurdle I really had to work hard to get over to give trust without expecting anything to happen. It— like, some people talk about earning trust, like you start with zero and you earn trust. I, I start with trust and you do things to lose my trust. But if you don't do anything, you don't lose my trust. You still implicitly— that was a fundamental shift for me. I, I mean, is that along the lines of what you're talking, or did I miss it?

Yeah. So for me, the, the connection there is, um, in order to trust or build trust, we have to take risk. We have to take personal risk. Um, and that is what we're losing in business, is this, um, practice of taking risk. And that's why— and, and and partly because we're trying to control so much. Okay. So much out of our control that what we can control, we're really honing in on. But it means that we are less confident or capable or practiced in taking risk. So even things like networking, you know, lots of people nowadays won't go out and network. And they'll tell themselves it's too cold, it's too dark, I'm too busy, I can't afford it, networking's boring, nothing ever comes of it. So 101 reasons not to network. But the reality for a lot of people since the pandemic is that they— again, it's fear-based thinking, fear-based behavior— is that, um, you know, what if nobody talks to them? What if they don't come across as an expert? What if they, um, are called out in a situation. What, you know, there's the— there are so many risks to networking, putting yourself out there, showing that vulnerability, showing up.

Yeah.

And that we're losing that capability. So, yeah, you know, um, Mel Robbins's bestselling book, The Let Them Theory. Yes. You know, every week I under— I open my, um, Sunday Times magazine. It tells me what the top 10 best-selling books are in the UK. And every other week she's back at the top of the charts again. Her, her version of this is, you know, it's, it's about letting go, the practice of letting go. Let them, in her case, you know, you can't change other people. Let them do them. And you and I have talked about, um, you know, interpersonal, personal relationships that we have in our lives, um, and, and you know that I've been practicing very hard and I'm just letting them be them and I'll do me.

Yeah.

So it's, again, it's this, um, we have to get comfortable with the discomfort of not being in control, of being uncertain, because that's where the growth happens. Yeah, get yourself to the office, get yourself to a networking event, try something different, go and volunteer in a local shop. All of these things are scary, but if we don't put ourselves outside of our comfort zone, we are not going to grow and we're not going to improve as leaders and human beings.

Yeah, I mean, so true. And the, the aspect of safety, as you know, plays very large in my life and my decision to step out into spaces. And really, the only fundamental difference is I haven't changed my informal measure. It's formal in that I track it every month, but I want to grow, for instance, my LinkedIn connections, which pretty much only happen if I've met you or we've been you know, on a Zoom call together, something where we've actually gotten to know each other a bit. And I want to do that 100 people a month, um, and I'm outpacing that this year, um, and I've been doing this for a number of years, um, it just means statistically the number goes down. The bigger my community grows, the less growth that 100 makes, but, um, You know, at this point it still shows up as a nice like 1.6, 1.8% growth depending upon the month. But the only thing fundamentally that changed was, is I do a safety assessment of do I feel safe putting myself out there in the world today because of my identity to do that. But fundamentally, networking has been an incredible point. And I always use the analogy, I had a 40-year career in Canada. I did not have a corporate career in the UK. The only way I am going to grow my business is to get out and network no matter how scary it is or how cold it is or how rainy it is. Networking is the only way. And yes, sometimes it's digital, which I think was originally how we met. And then, it was a matter of making the intentionality to connect. And the only other thing was that, as a tidbit for anybody, was that when I meet people digitally and you're in a group, I think of it as a speed networking kind of session. I make the intention where there was a feeling of connection in the 5 or 7 minutes that you have in some of these events, I end with, can we connect on LinkedIn? And would you be interested in a follow-up call? And for that, we schedule 30 minutes to just talk about and get to know each other. That's it. And that's how I build 100 people a month.

Yeah. And that's what I'm talking about with the distributed workplace. I'm not working from home bashing, okay? It's about that deep enough connection. 30 minutes is all it takes. We used to get that 30 minutes in the kitchen or at the water cooler or down the pub after work. We need to deepen the connections beyond a bit of rapport. Yeah. How we move towards trust.

Yeah, love it, love it. I know we're getting up near the top of our hour, believe it or not, but then you and I have been known to talk for a while. Um, what haven't we talked about you would love to talk about for this audience?

I want to talk about you.

Oh no.

Okay, okay, there's a, there's a segue here. So, okay, putting ourselves out, out there, that's the segue. Okay, I feel so grateful that you and I met one another. I do recognize that I have curiosity as a strength. I have empathy as a strength.

Yes.

And so for me, it was easy to ask you 101 stupid questions about you, about your way of being in the world, about the transformation you've been through, and about how challenging it can be in this biased, prejudiced world. Yeah, that came easy enough for me with my strengths. And to be able to then put myself in your shoes, to really emotionally, empathically feel like I, I, I can at least in my head understand what that's like. And so I guess my invitation to the leaders listening is to follow their curiosity and allow it to take them into places of understanding and acceptance that they're not yet in by asking the questions, no matter how vulnerable and embarrassed they might feel, to understand that there are other different, sometimes better ways of being, and that in finding those people, in collaborating with those people, that is how we role model inclusivity, and that is how we show our people in our organizations what it is to be an inclusive organization.

Love it. You almost had me in tears again, by the way, but that's okay. That's okay.

No, I'm trying to.

Yeah, you didn't tell me you were going there. Um, no, uh, thank you. I think that, uh, You know, that is really, you know, part of what people just don't get is we are stuck so often these days on, well, I don't know. And look, I mean, I had 30 years in the executive suite and it was politically risky, even in an organization with 8 leaders, it was politically risky to be vulnerable as a leader. And it's one of the reasons why I've specifically extended my mentoring to mentoring one-on-one with executives because I know you can. But I have never been able to, as well as I would like, create a large group space where everybody breaks down and And it's a kumbaya moment. And so, I help them find that safe space to do it individually. So when they go into a group and we do group work, they feel much more comfortable. We'll talk about that on a walk one day. There's obviously something I need to learn. But I think that that's how we keep pushing ourselves when it feels uncomfortable, when it feels vulnerable. I think the one thing that I've learned is to be okay with that feeling because that's the body's physical reaction to growth. That's the moment of growth. And if we're trying to be better leaders to build better organizations that serve our customers better, that create greater loyalty with our customers, with our shareholders, with our employees, and all other stakeholders. And ultimately, they want that to translate into more business, more revenue. It takes having to go through some of those growth moments in order to get there. Well, we're right up at the top of the hour. Thank you so much for being here. I think you just dropped an amazing truth bomb for everyone out there if they aren't already thinking about someone that can help them transform their organization. How do they get a hold of you to help them on this journey?

Through you, Cynthia.

But you also have a website, so feel free to be able to promote it, please.

Okay, thank you. Humility. EqualTalent.com, or you can find me on LinkedIn.

Yeah, and Equal Talent is a collaborative partner with the Fortlage Collective, so we absolutely invite you to contact either of us, but As you can see, we collectively have a lot of skills to help leaders in organizations these days. So, thank you again. I can't wait till we go on our next walk on the heath and elsewhere. Tell Barker to get ready. I will look forward to it. But let me just thank our guests for being with us today. Everyone, I hope you found this as amazing as I know Amanda is. I hope that you now see, uh, what a privilege it would be to be able to work with her and to learn from her. Um, I'm fortunate to do it on a whole different level and be able to share knowing her a bit with you today. And I really appreciate you being here for today's episode. Please make sure you hit that subscribe button so you can be aware of when This and other great content continues to drop with other guests as we continue to record and publish about once every 2 weeks. So thank you again. Thank you, Amanda. And everyone stay safe and have a fabulous day.

Bye.

Bye.