Small Teams, Big Culture — Leading Well in SMEs (with Heather McDaniel)

Hello and welcome to another episode of Holding It Both Ways podcast. My name is Cynthia Fortlage, she/her, and I am your host. Uh, today we have a fabulous guest. You're going to love them. But just to remind you why you're here, this is Holding It Both Ways. We are for leaders that are navigating the paradox where inclusion, identity, and impact meet. So through real human stories and lived experience, each episode offers the reflections and insights to help lead with greater depth, courage, and care. And today I am absolutely delighted to welcome Heather. Welcome, Heather.

Thank you so much for having me on, Cynthia Fortlage.

Heather, I would love it if you could tell the audience a little bit about who you are and what you're about.

Sure. I'm Heather McDaniel, and I am the founder of the Life Love Leadership Project. And what I do is leadership development and facilitation. So I work with leadership teams at small to midsize enterprises. And basically, I work with the teams to help them collaborate, see strategic opportunity, build trust, and navigate uncertainty.

That's amazing. And as we discovered in our pre-conversation, we share a lot of similar aspects to the way we do business. Now, as people say to me, those that are smart, they go, well, that sounds like a North American accent. So for our audience, that is a North American accent, but you're not based in North America, are you?

No, no, I'm not. So I'm American by birth, and I was born and raised in New Jersey. I've lived all over the US, from Hawaii to Portland, Oregon, to everywhere. Just make it easy. I'll just— I'll spare you the details. It's all good. And I'm now based in Valencia, Spain. And I've been in Spain, so I've been in Spain for the last 3 and a half years. I started out in Santiago de Compostela in the north, and I just got to— so if you're familiar with the Camino de Santiago, I live at the end of it. Um, and I came to Valencia about 3 months ago.

Oh, brilliant, brilliant. I— and again, we share a travel history as part of our squiggly careers and lives. Ja. Now, today is the day we're recording is September 11th, which, you know, being two gals from North America is a very impactful day. But, you know, unfortunately overnight as we woke up here in Europe and the UK, we heard some, you know, very troubling news from North America. So I guess I wanted to start and ask you, Heather, How do we find you today?

You know, I, I woke up, I was in a very good space, and then I went on online as I started my day, and things shifted very quickly. Um, you know, today is obviously September 11th, as you mentioned, and so I already started this day with a bit of a heavy heart. Um, it's, you know, for me it's usually a day of reflection because For me, September 11th is a day that changed everything, um, in so many lives, and we're still feeling the reverberations of that. Um, and for me, it was very personal, um, in terms of how it was experienced. I was in New Jersey at the time, so very close enough to see the smoke from the Twin Towers and, um, just the stories that came out of that. Um, so today I usually use as a day of reflection. Um, and then on top of that, the disturbing news from last night, yesterday. I don't even know the timing. I just, yeah, woke up to it, uh, with Charlie Kirk. Yeah, and that creates another layer because for me it's heaviness with reconciliation. Yeah, um, it's— I guess the best way to put it is, you know, loathe the man, loathe the policies and what he stood for, disagreed with them 100%. Yeah, at the same time the violence is not right, the violence is wrong, you know. And there's this reconciliation happening where it's just like, how, how do you reconcile the, the loathing and the peace, right, that is, that is desired? Um, and there's also fear that comes up because there's also a sense of, okay, What's next? How is this going to escalate? Will this get used to silence people who now disagree, or will this get used in a way that brings us further from a democratic nation? So there, there's a lot happening there. So today is a is a day where it's like I have something to say, but at the same time, I also know I need to stay off of social media. So yeah, yeah.

I mean, you know, as I shared with you, um, after waking up to, um, again, also the reflection of 9/11, um, I remember my parents always talked about they could remember the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. Um, and Everybody you talk to says, I remember what I was doing. My father, I talked about, he was on a ladder. He was painting the living room, you know, in the home. I remember everything about September 11th. It fundamentally changed the way we live and think about our existence. And I think for so many, and it's not that it was 20 odd years ago in the past, it still feels like it was yesterday that it happened. But, you know, I absolutely agree with everything you said about, you know, Charlie Kirk. And while I did not agree with his politics and I did not agree with his stance on pretty much anything, I think that when I talk about— and I know that, again, you work in leadership— that we need to, we need to make it acceptable to have conversations in what I describe as the messy middle. That's the really difficult place. And we need to talk about our differences with words, not bullets.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yeah. So, thank you for raising that. And I'm glad that you were still here today to be able to share with everyone. Um, when we kind of go back and kind of look at where we started, you know, we had talked about— well, you and I met through, um, a leadership, uh, event from We Create Space, wonderful organization. They're doing great stuff. They have very large global presence. And when we met through there, it was, at least for me, instantaneous, in the under 5 minutes, where it was like Oh my gosh, like, we got to talk more because there was so much. I guess what was, what was that moment like for you?

It was the same. It was just like this. It was just like, oh, this is great. You know, I think it was initially the discovery of, you know, we both do the same work.

Yeah.

And then we started to dig a little bit deeper into our philosophy and how we do it and how we approach things. And I think it was just like this instantaneous, like, boom, like synergy, right?

Yeah.

And it was just like, oh, fabulous. And we just hit it off in terms of, you know, like, there's a lot of crossover. Yes, we do things slightly differently. But, you know, I think for me, what came across is that it's— we care so deeply about how people show up. And, you know, it's not necessarily about the titles or anything like that. It's more about the presence and the resilience and the ability to stay connected to each other, to what's going on around them, but to themselves as well.

Yeah, absolutely. And it was intriguing because neither of us started in this work as part of our professional career.

No.

As I use the phrase, and it describes many women's lives and careers, that They're squiggly. So do you want to give us kind of a high-level squiggly path of your career journey that's led you?

It has to be high level because if I get into the details, it's just going to confuse the heck out of everybody. But I've never really had the classic leadership path, if that wasn't already obvious. I wasn't, you know, my career did not really consist of climbing towards the C-suite.. And it, it wasn't necessarily managing a team of hundreds. For me, I became a student of leadership, um, not because of titles, but because I saw what happened when leadership was either absent or really, I guess, misused would be, would be the best way to put it. Um, So for me, I had to learn how to lead myself. And how do you— so I had to really ask things like, you know, how do you hold steady when things are uncertain or in some instances in certain parts of my career, unhealthy? And that ended up shaping my approach to leadership. And, you know, for me, a lot of that, a lot of that happened early in my career. I had already started coaching, so I was, became a certified coach, gosh, in like 2003. And so like I already had some of that experience and I was also working in sales organizations. And what that did was teach me about pressure and performance. And sometimes we get so lost in the numbers that we forget about the people.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and for me, and seeing both really good management and really poor management, you know, where it's just like you have, you know, and I've experienced both in, in those early stages of my career where, you know, I really found that leadership was about people.. And I found that the managers who treated, you know, who really took people into account and who really cared, those performances were through the roof. Whereas the leaders who kind of treated the sales organization kind of like, you remember that movie Boiler Room?

Yeah.

Yeah. You know, that treated it like that. Yeah. The results weren't there.

Okay.

And so for me it was, leadership really became about how can you create those conditions of care where people can really show up and be themselves and thrive.

Right.

That—

it's intriguing to me that that's where, you know, you, you came from. And, and I, we're not going to unpack the, the detail of it, but I'm familiar with some of the organizations you've worked with, which were very large organizations, but your focus isn't there. And it— I find it intriguing because I worked in the midsize of kind of the SMB space and, you know, grew. It was, you know, a $5 billion company. I had a $3 million budget I was responsible for, you know, it was about 150 employees, North American-based. And I work and have worked for the last 10 years with more corporates, you know, 1,000 employees and above kinds of size. You, on the other hand, have found the sweet spot as we were talking about it. You focus on the other part of business. I don't. In fact, there's many more of them than there are the corporates. How did you get there? How did you go, that's a group that really needs what I've got and I know I can help them?

Yeah. Yeah. And that's a great question because I think for me, I found that small to midsize businesses, the— that for me has always been like a draw to me.

Okay.

I think experiencing corporate. Yep. I think for me, like, I love dealing with more agile businesses. Yep. And, you know, I think one of the, you know, when I also have experiences working in startups as well, you know, whether it's as a consultant, and I think one of the first jobs I had out of college was working for a startup during like the dot-com boom. Okay. And so, you know, and I loved the, the energy of it and I loved the agility and it was more personal.

Okay.

To me. And the decisions had more impact. And you can see and experience that impact more quickly. At least that's, that's how I experienced it, you know, comparing the two. But in terms of how I apply my work now, SMEs face really unique challenges because they don't necessarily have the big budgets, right? And they don't necessarily have, you know, a leadership and development plan. Yeah. Um, and so leaders tend to learn, you know, it's trial by fire, right? A lot of the time where they're learning in the, in, in real time, um, without training, without a safety net. And so they're trying to sort out, okay, like, how do I lead, but how do I do it without the safety net? And how do I balance, you know, the growth that I'm responsible for with the people that I'm responsible for and for the culture of the organization. Um, and so for me, it's also an opportunity, and I think this is what excites me, is just having that opportunity to work with these businesses and organizations and help shape those cultures at the root level.

Okay.

You know, and, and really coming in at a point before the bad habits take hold and they become the norm.

Yeah.

So, you know, and that's the danger is when, you know, you don't have that sort of safety net, you don't have that support. Mm-hmm. That ultimately is what happens. And then it just cycles into a potentially toxic, toxic environment over time. And that leads to high, high turnover and Lots of other negative consequences.

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I mean, I think just for the sake of the audience, is I've worked with solo entrepreneurs as well, so I cover the spectrum, and there is no limit to the size of company that you could work with either, I would assume, correct?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Now, one of the other interesting aspects that I, I thought we shared, and you touched on it on your introduction, was We're not exactly in the country we were born or that we grew up in. And even within that, you didn't necessarily live in one place. Um, I always describe— people go, oh, so you live in London? I go, well, I'm in London right now, but I actually consider myself pretty much a nomad these days. This is where I'm at right now, and wherever I'm at, I call home. Is that any different for you? And In that journey, what have you learned about leadership and resilience through that journey?

Oof. You know, it's funny, the concept of home, right? For, you know, and how we define it. For some people, home means stability and security. You know, for others it's wherever my bag's at, wherever my stuff's at, that's home, right? For me, I think for me, I've been on this journey to just finding home in here, no matter where I am.

Yeah.

And I think that's kind of part of it. Um, while there is at the same time to have to this desire of just being feeling settled in place, um, you know, settled in environment. Um, I think that there's also that Um, yeah, but as far as the different experiences, um, of moving about and moving to another country, um, how that's taught me a lot. I mean, when I moved here, it's not like, you know, I moved here by myself.

Okay.

Um, and so you think you have everything lined up, you think you have your plan But as we all know, things might not necessarily go according to plan, right? So what happens when Plan A doesn't work? What happens when Plan B doesn't work? What happens when you're on like Plan C and you don't have Plan D, right? Yeah. So it was, it was a lot of learning. It was learning how to be okay that I didn't have all the answers.

Okay.

I think that was probably one of the biggest lessons, and being okay and just accepting myself and where I was at, because there were challenging times. And, you know, so that time, you know, and even now is, you know, still a bit challenging because I'm in a new place. I've only been in Valencia for a few months, um, and I think that It's also helped me realize, like, the old stuff I was carrying, like the old ways of, of being, um, you know, like you don't have those old identity markers, you know, when you— right? And so, you know, you get to decide, like, okay, who am I outside of what I do, outside of the networks, outside of language? Who am I? And so, you know, I think all of those learnings not only made me more resilient and made me realize that, wow, I can take on a lot. Yeah. You know, and I can handle a lot. But it also, I think, made me a lot more empathetic as, as somebody in leadership because I know what it feels like to be disoriented. I know what it feels like to live without a roadmap. Um, and I think that that's something that many of us are feeling right now.

Yeah.

You know, in, you know, whether you're, you know, no matter where you are on the, the, the ladder, you know, in, in our professional lives, there's a lot of uncertainty and we're, you know, flying without a roadmap right now. And, and even personally, you know, you go home and you turn on the news and there's just, it, it can be overwhelming.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I, I, I love that analogy, um, the way that you talk about it because again, it very much mirrors, you know, a lot of what I had when we talk about home. I go, What I have come to learn was where I am, I am home. And that was learning to center in me, right? Not a place. And so that very much became it. And then this whole idea of— I love the phrase you hear in the news all the time. This is such unprecedented times. I don't think we haven't not said that. That's like the the hipster leadership word for the last decade, you know, because it has been nothing but unprecedented for pretty much close to more than a decade. And you're right, a lot of that became— began to become unglued since, as we began our talk about 9/11, at least from a North American perspective and both our backgrounds, it was like, Okay, hang on, the world's not as we thought. And even navigating the world outside the bounds of, quote, your nation, it is completely an experience to me that's centered in— I recognize that I need to grow as a human being and Resilience comes from the experience of knowing there's something to be afraid of but moving forward, you know, despite it, right? Um, they always use that as the definition of courage and so forth, which, I mean, trust me, as a trans woman, I hear all the time, and I appreciate that people see it that way. I'm just being me, right? So it, it's the idea is we're all leaders of our own life. And we all need to grow to be the best human we possibly can. And that the exercise of growing creates the resilience through life. Now, I know that in our— I'm sorry, I just don't know what's going on this morning with my voice. We talked a little bit here that we end up having these contrasts similarities. And I loved you pulled that word from the '90s, synergies. That was such a leadership word, such a management word, right? We have synergies. But it's a really good word and it absolutely applies. What can you give us an example of something you have learned in your experience that has the kind of synergy to it that you've been able to bring across common leadership challenges and/or lessons that transfer regardless of really the size of business?

Yeah, I think that, you know, at the end of the day, it's always going to be about people. Yeah, right. And that's going to be the same no matter what size the company is. Right. And it doesn't matter if you're a multinational, a 20-person company, a solopreneur. We all have the same fears, the same hopes, and we all have our blind spots, right, that we just don't know about. I think that there's also, um, issues with, you know, trust, communication.

Mhm.

Still experience challenges with those. So those don't matter, you know, I mean, not that they don't matter, it's just that, um, they you still see them in those companies, right?

Right.

Across the board. Yeah. They're constants.

Yeah. It usually just becomes a question of scale.

Exactly. It's scale and visibility.

Yeah.

That's really what it is. You know, like, that's like the key difference.

Yeah. I know that, you know, one of the things that, that you lead with is, I mean, I always talk that I'm a consultant that you talk that, you know, you, you facilitate. Which almost feels like a more action word. I do a lot of thinking. You do a lot of doing. That's just simply how I process it, I guess. Is there a commonality that you encounter? And I'm thinking, is there a common starting point where people go, oh, I got this problem? And they go, we got to bring Heather in to talk about this. Or in the work, you always end up working on this kind of problem. And I know, I mean, you talked about the people. You've talked about communicating. Are those the kind of key issues that usually are the initiative, or is there something else?

I think it's— no, no, usually it's more surface level. Yeah. And it's usually we can't seem to collaborate. Okay. Or we can't seem to come together as a team. Okay. In some cases, you know, people are looking at numbers. Why is turnover so high? Or why is— why are we having this disconnect between our leadership and everybody else? Yeah. Or why can't we come to an agreement on a strategic vision? Yeah. And find new opportunities in the marketplace.

Right.

Those typically are the leading questions that clients will have. And usually it comes down to something a little bit more deeper, which can be trust, which can be communication issues, which can be, uh, you know, uh, I think it's a just a different dynamic in terms of how people operate and just a lack of understanding in terms of how people operate.

Yeah.

Um, and trying to get different personalities to be in this on the same page. And not understanding, say, learning styles or communication styles.

Yeah, no, I mean, that really resonates. And in my experience, I, I talk about, um, some of the work I did with what's called, um, 3L Leadership. It was a training program, and it's one that I have incorporated the components that worked into some of the training that I deliver for leaders. And what is intriguing that really relates to what you were talking about was the idea that we had this idea as a team, we weren't coalescing. I mean, there was 8 of us. So, it wasn't a huge team. But it was kind of we were all used to being more entrepreneurial in our role. And it was like, well, no, hang on. We're more than 100 employees when we started this work.. And it's like, no, we need to coalesce as a team. And so, we kind of started there. But what was intriguing that once we unpicked those layers to what you said is the first thing we had to work on was a cultural element of, "That's not my job." That was pervasive in the company. And we spent 2 years developing the framework and training everybody on the language and the technique of creating this culture that we wanted and what we called an intentional culture. And being able to do the work to deal with it. Now, the nice thing was that once all that groundwork was laid, we worked on the next challenge, if you will, in under 6 months. Oh wow! Because all the work was done. So, there's a lot of groundwork to kind of deal with the first problem. But then things get to go faster and faster and faster as you iterate because you're using all the same techniques, all the same approach, and everybody has kind of— they are now belonging to the company and everybody's working together from staff, you know, right up through the management and leadership teams. Does that resonate with experiences you've had with your clients?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So for example, there was a client that I worked with recently where they had their leadership team. It was relatively new where they— and plus they were remote. And so what we ended up doing was I facilitated a workshop for them just to help them build trust among each other and to help them see some opportunities and what was working within the business and what wasn't. And it was really interesting because this is a team of doers. Okay. And, you know, getting them to pause and just listen to each other without having to fix things, right? That was actually one of the biggest things was just like, I want to sit and be present and hear what's needed without fixing it. Right. Because I'm so used to doing— wait, I can't? Wait, what?

Yeah, absolutely. It's so intriguing that I find, and I love that you touched on in that example, the idea of remote work. And again, we hear lots of different labels, you know, for that— the future of work, remote work, digital nomad, work from home. Does that come up for you a lot? Because it's something that's quite pervasive in my work. It's always, if you will, one of the difficult conversations a lot of companies struggle with. What do you see, and do you kind of have a an approach that you kind of work with people to help them find their answer?

In terms of helping them decide if it works for them or not, or just how do they manage it?

Well, I guess, I mean, as a consultant, you can go in and say, well, here's what you should do, or, you know, let me take you through a journey to find the answer that works for you. Right. Because it's a difficult conversation.

Right.

What I find is they don't want to have the conversation because all that is is butting heads.

I, I don't find that actually. I find that there's an openness to it. They just aren't sure if it's the right thing for them.

Okay.

Um, that is what I find. And there are companies I worked, worked with that are purely remote.

Okay.

And that seems to be okay with them. Um, and that works for them, right?

No, that's good. Yeah, it's one of those kind of challenges that seems to come up. And with the nuances of what I work on within the idea of gender impacts leadership differently, you end up finding a totally different perception because traditionally, women are much more impacted by these decisions than any other part of the workforce. And so, you know, we kind of look at it and that's why I focus on inclusion because inclusion for everyone means we have to look at all of the nuanced issues that might be impacting communities, you know?

Right.

I remember somebody describing it and I don't know if this relates to work that you do, but somebody talked about, they went, "Oh, you're in that inclusion business? Oh." Like, I hate those inclusion people. And the idea was, okay, well, you know, if you end up having all of the staff that you bring into the company, you do all this effort, you recruit and you bring them in. And let's just say you happen to get the formula right and you have the perfect balance of gender and race and everything else. As you look through each layer of the organization, does that mirror? Does it actually carry through? And when it doesn't, have you ever stopped to ask why? You know, there is typically a systemic barrier in the way your organization and your policies and all the pieces have been put together that seems to only at certain points elevate certain kinds of people into those roles. So you start to get an imbalance as you kind of move through it. Have you seen that within the clients you work with? And is there normally a way that you kind of direct people to, you know, look at this as a challenge?

Yes, um, I have seen it come up with a few clients, and what I have done in those situations is, is just asking questions. You know, like, is that working for them, right? And do they— a lot of the times they think that they're doing the right things, right? They think that they are being more inclusive. Yeah. And they have that intention.

Yeah.

They just don't see which pieces are missing, you know? And so like, they have their own blind spots about it. And so For me, in those situations, it's coming in and pointing out the blind spots. Right.

Great. Great. I appreciate the depth that I took you into on that. And I know that we hadn't pre-talked about it. So thank you.

Of course.

I just thought it was really important to have the audience kind of hear from you how we kind of address some of these kind of key aspects that keep coming up. So I guess, what drives you now? What message do you want leaders to take away? And maybe this conversation is their first step towards collaborating with you. So let them know what drives you, what message you want them to take away, and we'll get into how they can get a hold of you in a moment.

Sure. Um, what drives me is the belief that leadership, you know, like, you don't have to have the superhero cape to be a leader, right? You don't have to have the title. Um, it's really about everyday people making very small, seemingly insignificant but yet courageous choices that take them out of their comfort zone.

Okay.

Right. That to me is, hey, when that, that's what drives me. Um, you know, for me, I see myself as a bridge. So I help leaders, you know, hold on to their values while navigating, while everything is, you know, circling around, the storm is brewing and everything around them is telling them that they need to panic. It's like, how do you hang on to those values? How do you not abandon yourself in those moments? How do you not abandon your team? How do you not abandon your values in those moments? That's what drives me. And we are living through an interesting time when we're seeing these old systems break down and collapse and the new ones aren't fully here. And you, you, you talked about it as the messy middle. Yeah, that's That's where we're at. And the beauty of that is that there's possibility exists. And we all know that the anxiety exists.

Mm-hmm.

So how do you see past the anxiety to see the possibility?

Absolutely. There's always opportunity. You just have to see it.

Yeah. And believe it. And believe it. Yeah.

Absolutely. What are you working on next? What's any, you know, projects you're working on you want to tell people about? You know, what's kind of coming up for you that you'd love folks to, you know, be aware of?

Right now, writing has been coming up for me.

Okay.

Yeah, actually a couple of fun writing projects that are coming up for me. And yeah, so I'm not going to get into detail with them yet. They're not at that place yet. They're like those little seedlings, you know. One of the projects I'm just putting out to beta readers. So yeah, so I'll keep you posted on that. And in the meantime, yeah, it's just, you know, it's just enjoying the day. You know, it's really just, you know, for me, it's being focused on what's happening here and now. Yeah. And just appreciating and just having deep appreciation for that.

Yeah, no, that's brilliant. And, you know, I mean, I just completed my 4th manuscript and published my first, self-published, but I published my first just recently. Nice. Congratulations. Thanks. I still have 5 more to write because I took those seeds and what I found is I never remember the seeds.

Yeah.

So what I did is I've got a process. When I get a seed, I actually start the germination process. I break it down. I write out sample chapters. What would I want to talk about? Whatever is kind of in my head that's spurred that thought, I capture it, and then I plant it.

Yeah.

And then I wait for it to grow accordingly. Um, if you're beginning that journey, uh, congratulations, and can't wait to see what you come up with.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, how do people get a hold of you, Heather?

Okay, um, first off, um, easiest way would be email. Okay, Heather at HeatherMcDaniel.com. Um, you can find me on LinkedIn at Heather McDaniel, and, um, Yeah, those are, those are two very simple ways to get a hold of me.

Great, great. We'll put those in the show notes to make sure that people are able to find you accordingly. Uh, Heather, thank you so much. I, I'm pretty sure I can say this is not the last time we will collaborate and work together.

I, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure about that as well. Yeah.

Uh, so absolutely love it. And I'm glad that the world has brought us together in the way it did. And I'm so looking forward to what the journey holds. But from behalf of me, thank you so much for making the time today. We could have easily rescheduled this, but thank you so much. And I really mean that.

Thank you. No, seriously, thank you. Really appreciate you taking the time and for opening the space up to have me on.

Great. Folks, if you love this conversation with Heather, it's been amazing. Please make sure you hit the subscribe button. Follow along to hear all our other previous guests and future upcoming guests as we're continuing to book and to build out new episodes, probably moving from monthly to much more biweekly publishing given the current pace. So please follow along and thank you for joining us today on Holding It Both Ways.