Episode 9 - Dr. Chibunna Nwaobia - “Nurses Eating Their Young”

Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast with this week's guest, Dr. Chibuna Wabia. Chibuna is a nursing leader and professional development expert, and also the founder of Nurses Bond, a platform that combines professionalism and networking to bring about positive social change. I have had the pleasure of working with Chibuna over the last few years, and I can attest that he is a force to be reckoned with in the nursing profession. And if you want to learn something, Chibuna has the answers. So let's welcome Chibuna Wabia to the show. Welcome to the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast, brought to you by The Nurse Speak, a show where we rally some of our nation's greatest nurse leaders, educators, experts, and advocates to tackle some of our greatest challenges that the nursing profession faces.

My name is Damion Jenkins, and I'm your host for this show. So sit back, relax, and get ready to learn that nurses can do anything. Okay, Chibuna, thank you so much for being on the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast. Why don't you just take a moment and introduce yourself to the listeners? Let them know a little bit about your nursing career, where you started and where you are today.

Hi, thank you so much, Damion Jenkins, um, for having me here. Um, My name is Chibuonamobie. Some people call me Chibu, others call me Dr. Chibu, you know, as a professor. So I go by whatever makes you happy as a happy person. Well, I, um, I started my nursing career in, you know, in my country in Africa, and I just wanted to, you know, have that sense of caring, you know. How can I you know, use my sense of caring to help, you know, the larger community. And I, you know, I found myself in nursing. I know I would have been a medical doctor, I had all the opportunities, but I decided that, you know, nursing is more caring, you know, to the patient's bedside. And that's how I started.

Awesome. So you mentioned your country in Africa, what country?

I'm from Nigeria, and I started nursing back then.

Awesome. And so you've obviously come a long way in nursing. You started off in Nigeria, um, and then you came here and then you continued your education, correct?

Correct, yes. So I finished my bachelor's in Nigeria, no, came over here, just wanted to know the reason why people behave the way they do. That was my, my original one, you know. Back there we hear about rat race and everything. I said, okay, I'm just gonna know the reason why people behave the way they do. And, um, I had my master's in counseling and psychology, trying as much as possible. Then after that, I headed to get my master's in nursing. And from there, I started growing, you know, with my counseling background, caring background, and the master's in nursing. I jumped right there into the workforce, you know, from one to another. And as a leader, I started seeing some things based on what I have learned. And you know, started trying to fix some of the things that I, you know, I saw that were— let me call them some gaps. So from there, I remember one nurse manager saw me when I made a statement in a meeting, and she said, you're smart. And that was it. And later on, few weeks, so she called me, said, hey, there is assistant nurse manager position. And I said, oh, I'm practically new. She said, no, go and apply for it. So that was how I started from assistant nurse manager to nurse manager to nurse director to senior director and chief clinical officer right now. So, you know, it has been a journey of over 10 years in nursing leadership, and I can tell you that I have really, really enjoyed it. You know, there have been obstacles, but, you know, the greatest joy is how many people, how many lives I have, you know, affected positively.

Wow. Yeah, so you said 10 years of leadership experience from that first assistant manager position all the way to chief nursing officer, right?

Correct.

So in— that's just 10 years of leadership. So how many years of nursing altogether did you have before?

I have been in leadership— I've been a nurse now for 18 years, so since 2003. Yeah, that doesn't mean I am old. No, no, but I just, I just, I started, you know, young and, you know, just jump right into it and, you know, having the passion and trying as much as possible to leave healthcare better than I met it. So I wanted to make a change. And you know, when you have that burning sensation to make a change, you grow, you keep on growing from one step to another, to another. And, um, I can tell you I am proud of all the successes, all the accomplishments I've got so far.

And yeah, and you should be. And I'm sure everyone that works with you, your friends, your family, your colleagues, are also very proud. Um, I'm proud to know you because I see how ambitious and caring you are. And this is why I have you in my own network, because I want to be paired up with individuals like yourself. And so, you know, I want to get into, you know, what the topic of this podcast is, which is nursing strategies for success. And you have lots of experience, so you've seen how healthcare has transformed over the years. Our, you know, our experience in healthcare is a lot different than some of the more experienced nurses that I've had on the show or that I work with who have 30, 40 years of experience who have come out and just plain right said that we've had a pretty difficult run, um, since we've been nurses. And just in the, you know, 18 years that you've seen in nursing, things have changed. And then in the 11 years that I've been a nurse, I've seen things get worse. When I came out, I was like, this isn't how things are supposed to be, and I've seen it get worse. So let's Talk about the problem, the one thing, the issue that you have identified. Um, tell me how you identified that and then we'll get into some of the strategies that you've developed to fix that problem.

Okay. I have several of them. I will start from, um, you know, um, one of the challenges I have seen or the problems is, you know, nurses helping the younger ones. So that is number one. I don't know why I chose that.

But no, that's a great one. No one has brought that up on the show so far. So thank you for mentioning that. And some people might know that as the statement of nurses eating their young, right? We've heard that before. And so this is a huge topic, a big problem that we need to definitely address. So when, when was the first time you saw that problem?

Oh, it's not even— well, prior to, you know, coming to America, I think You know, I saw that in my country, but I kind of like— because then it was considered nursing, you know, a female profession, so to speak, in my country. But with me going into nursing and choosing a specialty which is midwifery, like delivering babies, it was a kind of like— it was like fun because all the, all the ladies, you know, the women, they were just— they were interested in me and some other guys, you know, wanting to know the reason why we chose you know, that specialty, you know. I just want to tell you, maybe this you don't know about me, I used to deliver babies, okay?

I mean, that's great because that's not very common. That's not common for male nurses to go into that.

Exactly. So from there, I was like, everybody was like, hey, um, they used to call us mid-husbands, you know. Why do you choose to do this? Why do you choose to do that? No, by the time we explain ourselves, that one is gone. Fast forward to coming to America and seeing things, and you know, like you asked me today the first thing that people ask you is that, how many years have you been a nurse? How many years have you been a nurse? And I just want to tell you and tell your audience today that it doesn't matter how many years you have been a nurse, it's the expertise that you have. You can be a nurse for 2 years and still be an excellent nurse. You can be a nurse for 30 years and still be an excellent nurse. So, um, I know, I get it, I know experience is there But a nurse is a nurse. It doesn't matter how many years you've been a nurse. So I just want to, um, you know, I just want to bring that out there and let people know. So that comes to, you know, you know, what we are talking about— nurses eating their young or not being able to support, you know, their younger ones because they just want to see this, you know, quote-unquote seniority, right? Seniority does not take care of patients. What takes care of patients is the passion that you have.

Right.

As in us.

Right. So I want to just elaborate on that a little bit. And so, you know, back in Africa, you had the same issue, people kind of being like, hey, you know, you're brand new, you don't know anything. And then you also saw the same thing here. So you're seeing that lack of accountability by the more experienced nurses to embrace and empower and guide the newer nurses. To come up to the same level of expertise and confidence that that individual has. And you're right, coming in at various levels, whether you're a new nurse or an experienced nurse as far as years of experience, that doesn't matter because you're right, we all come in at different levels of experience. And even for myself, nursing was a second career for me. And so I came in with 15 years of food and hospitality industry experience where I opened up restaurants and was one of the lead trainers for a multi-million dollar chain restaurant corporation. And so I had a lot of people skills, a lot of, you know, soft skills, interprofessional skills. I had good communication skills. I knew how systems should run. And, you know, when I was met with a lot of the challenges that I consider to be not nursing, but plague nursing so greatly. And when I would bring up, you know, recommendations for resolution, I was always met with resistance, basically being told, you're a new nurse, you don't know anything, you know, this is the way it's always been, or just wait, you'll get used to it. And I'm just like, no, this isn't, this isn't correct. It should be changed because this is not even a nursing-specific problem, it's a systems or operational problem and has nothing to do with nursing. And so clearly you see that that's a problem today even, or you wouldn't have brought it up. And you're in a position of leadership, so you must be seeing, uh, the nurses in your own facility having the same issues.

Correct. Yes. And, um, like I said, I don't know why I brought it up. And, um, I know this might help someone. Okay. It might help those that, you know, that have been in nursing for so, so long. And also the upcoming ones. Okay, and, um, I teach in school. I, I have— I know I've taught— I've been teaching in nursing school for 9 years now in America here. So I have seen how I have empowered nurses. I have seen nurses from day one till when they graduate, and still I hire them to work with me. Okay, so now, you know, when you go through all those processes, and I teach in an actual nursing university, seeing nurses go through school for 4 years and 5 years and they come up. So when they come up, you know, based on my experience, I don't consider them as novice nurses because through those 4 years they have gone through trainings, you know, they have done clinicals, they have done all those things to pass their NCLEX. So when they got there, I, I believe during those training years, those are the time they were getting their experience. So when they come to workforce, I don't consider them as novice. If they are novice, so what have they been doing for 4 years in school? Exactly, learning, right? So, but this is why I said when you come into workforce and the first thing you hear is, how many years have you been a nurse? You know, you don't know anything. You know, that kind— that is it. Before these people, that stigma of new grad, brand new nurse, before they wake up from it, they are like 5 years and 6 years, and you will still— 10 years, you still agree with me today that even you'd have been in us for 11 years, people consider, oh, you are young and nothing. What else do you want? You know what I mean?

You're right. You're absolutely right. And I've always thought coming out of nursing school and comparing, you know, my profession against other professions. My husband, for instance, he came out of school 5 years, no on-the-job training, just the schooling that he went through. 5 years, came out with a master's degree in electrical engineering. And he's treated like he's a master's-prepared electrical engineer. Comes in at a much higher level than someone with a lower degree or less years of schooling. And so he was rewarded for his additional degree and all of that coming into the profession. Whereas nurses, if you have an associate degree or a master's degree, but no clinical experience, they start you at the same place.

Great.

And I've always had a hard time understanding why that is.

So that's why when you ask me about the challenge, that's number one challenge. So it's still us. We have to, you know, we have to put a lot of confidence in ourselves. In our dear profession. Okay, so if somebody is, for example, at my role, is saying that, oh, this is a novice nurse, pay him or her something like this— what about you? What about when you started? Even if you started and you were treated the same, is it the reason why you're still going to treat other people the same way? Like I said, me, I have a lot of experience because I teach in school, I teach nurses, and I'm also pure firsthand clinical in the hospital. So I, I have seen it both, you know what I mean? I have seen it both. And I have also— I've not been a nurse for 30 years, but, you know, getting to 20 years now, I can also say that, you know, I've had, you know, experience in nursing. So I am talking from experience in all levels. So what we need to do is, um, is a great challenge that this is a burden that we brought to ourselves as professionals, and which I know that other professions don't have so much. Like you have just mentioned about your husband now.

Right.

So this is a challenge and I can tell you what we can do to get out of this challenge and move on.

So, so let's get into that. So we've identified that challenge of nurses eating their young, not expecting, you know, them to be proficient at anything they do practically. It's, it's almost like, um, we have this learned, um, doubt of ability or this learned cautiousness. And I understand for safety reasons, we have to double check everything and until someone proves proves that they can do a skill, that we shouldn't just assume it. And I get that, but we don't have to be mean about it. We don't have to be, you know, we don't have to be off-putting about it. So what are your recommendations for correcting, you know, this issue, this barrier that we have?

Okay, first I just want to clarify something. It came up to me now. You see, nurses eating their young is completely different. From nurses not supporting, okay, their fellow nurses or their younger nurses. You know what I mean? Because now eating their young is like bullying, if I might use that word.

So that's a part of it. I will say, I will say, when you dissect the whole kind of statement, it's not just the bullying aspect, it's also the lack of support. Um, because again, it's the assumption that they don't know anything, and it's the assumption that until they've put in the time, that they're not worth anything. So it's more than just the bullying aspect. And I think many people only speak to it on the bullying aspect because it's the easier part to dissect, to talk about. But I think it's holistically not supporting both on the emotional side, the mental side, and the, the resources that they need to flourish in their new career, even in the financial side.

Yeah, because you, uh, You know, I think we have talked about this before. You know, the cost of going to nursing education now, going through the BSN, is on the roof. You know, I know one of the school here— I know one of the school here, you pay over $130,000.

And how much does the average nurse in your area make?

So when people come and they make $34, $35, you see, when are you going to make enough money to pay your student loan and also fend for your family? Correct. You know what I mean? So this is one of the areas. Number one thing, like, we have identified number one thing is we need to first, um, protect our dear profession. We need to believe in our profession. I am a nurse tutor, I'm a nursing professor, I love nursing, and I, I know what I teach my students. So coming to workforce and said, oh, you're a novice, is contradictory to what I've taught them for 4 years. You are not a novice if you go through my school. I teach at Cal State, you know, California State University San Bernardino. If you come out of those 4-year programs, you're not a novice. You have gone through processes. We have put you through a lot of processes, clinicals, and everything to get you out. So number 1 is for our nurses, even those in leadership, to believe that yes, these people have gone to school they have something in their brain, they have something, they are ready to work, they are ready to go. First of all, when you have that confidence in them, you will see them, you will see these brand new nurses bringing out the best in them. But if you hush them, oh, you're brand new nurse, everything will now reset. Oh, I don't even know anything.

Yep.

Okay, so that's number one thing. I no longer, you know, since I got to know all these things, I know, love, I said, yes, you are new. If you are new, what are you supposed to do? Give them a preceptor. For 12 weeks. In my, my hospital, we have 12 weeks program. If somebody came out of— nursing is a science and art at the same time. If you have gone to school to learn the science, you, you come, you know, you come to the clinical side and have a preceptor for 12 weeks, for 16 weeks, you are good to go. If you don't know, that's why we have charge nurses, we have nurse managers or assistant nurse managers that you ask questions. From there, gradually you grow. But when you just come out and what you hear every day is, "You're a novice nurse, you're a new grad, a new grad, a new grad," you know, so in the brain, it's not telling you that you can do something. It's just making you remain where you are. So I don't know who needs to hear this.

Okay, you are getting me. I can say for certainty, I can say for certainty that this actually starts in nursing school as well. It comes from the professors to the students. For majority of my nursing training and then so many of my other students who I have had maybe after they've been with other professors, I constantly hear the same story that the fear of God is being put into these students and that they feel intimidated and they feel small and they feel scared. We emphasize safety to the fullest extent that everyone's afraid of making a mistake and killing a patient. Yes, that's important. And we should be cautious of those things, but we shouldn't be so afraid to do anything and feel so small that we can't advocate for ourselves, that we can't advocate for our patients, that we can't speak up, that we can't ask questions, and that we can't be bold and learn and explore, you know, the art and the science of nursing. And so it does start in school, these behaviors that are imparted into our start from the classroom even.

Who are the professors in school? Who are the professors in school?

Trust me, there's too many to list, and if I listed them all, I would lose my reputation in the nursing community.

No, no, no, no, no. What I, what I, what I mean by that, I still, I still the same people, you know what I mean? So now what?

Yes, these are people who have been around for a long time and they have changed.

Yes, things have changed. You know, when people look at you as a professor in nursing school, you're like, oh, they don't pay well. People don't want to— I'm, and I'm using this opportunity to tell, you know, our nursing colleagues, go— if you know that you know how to teach, go to community colleges, go to schools and teach and contribute. That is where to catch them young. I know it's hard over there because there are some people that have gained the, you know, the territorial, you know, zone of that place. Go and contribute your own quarter. You know, what happens here is that, you know, there are certain people— no, go over there. We have a lot of adjunct, you know, faculty everywhere. Now go there, teach one class a week so that, you know, these people, this younger generation will see you and they look up to you. And like you say, there are some nursing schools when you go there, you don't even want to be a nurse or you don't want to be a professor at all because of the quality of people that are there. Okay, so that's why I, I know I love teaching. I, I go there The only reason why I teach is to go and empower people. Yeah, I tell them, I go there to empower these young people. I said, I am young, I am a healthcare leader, executive for that matter. You can be that. Imagine seeing someone like me being young, and when you enter the first nursing school, you know, the first year of nursing school, you see somebody your age and he says, hey, he's an executive director or chief clinical officer of a hospital. Oh, that means that I can still be there. You see that? So let's not just go and just hide in the hospital alone. Let's also try to go and give back, you know, to these nursing schools so that our younger ones coming up, we have things to look up to. We have us to look up to. Like you said, some nursing schools are not promising because they don't have people like them that look like them that they can look up to. So when they come to the workforce Things are completely different, right? So that's one thing, you know, that you said it started in nursing school. Yes. And one of the solutions is to encourage people, these younger leaders or people that know that they can do some changes, you know, they can help teach, go over there and offer something. And that's what I did. That's what I started. And I can tell you, I have blessed— not even help— I have blessed so many nurses. My students will tell you that when they graduate, I hire them. I tell them to go to master's, I tell them to go to leadership. I have met people like nurse managers and even directors, and I said, hey, you can do it from this time to this time. But if they don't have people like that that can show them how it's done, okay, so they, they have low morale, and it's also affect— it affects nursing care, right?

Absolutely.

So starting in the classroom is important, and then also you mentioned with having all of the additional resources in your facility, like the charge nurses, the nurse managers, the assistant nurse managers. One thing I didn't hear, and I'm sure you have them on your team, is nurse educators as well, right? Because we're a huge part in that onboarding process, that annual competency, you know, regulations, making sure the nurses have the skills that they need, um, validating preceptors. Even there, even with the educators, the managers, everyone has to go through through a very similar process of making sure that we are embracing our nurses so that we are empowering them and making them confident in their skill set so that we can then in turn be confident that they're doing the best work that they can to drive patient outcomes, to improve job satisfaction, and to, like you said earlier, protect our profession.

Great. You see, you mentioned something here. You mentioned empowerment, you know, transform people. See, when you empower people, they will go above and beyond. So today, you know, maybe one of the reasons why we're doing this is to let our dear nurses know how to empower, you know, the younger generation coming. When I mean younger generation of nurses, I'm not talking about age here. I'm just talking about those that are new in, in the healthcare, in nursing. How do you empower them? Instead of telling them, oh, there is burnout, there is stress, just tell them, yes, you have taken this profession to heart. Because I used to ask my students, okay, what is the reason why you join nursing? If you take them back to the reason why they join nursing, you will see them— because, you know, you see them bringing out the best in them. And guess what? In 2, 3, 4, 5 years, you'll be surprised what they would do and how they will become the best nurses ever.

Absolutely. So, okay, so we've identified that one, you know, major barrier to nursing success. So thank you for that. And so I, I have the pleasure of working with you, and I know that your mission goes beyond being a chief nursing officer, and it goes beyond, you know, educating nurses at the academic level., and you're also the director over at Nurses Bond, right? So Nurses Bond does exactly what we just talked about, and that's empowering individuals, bringing people together so that they can, you know, improve their own, you know, career pathway to improve healthcare as a whole. And so why don't you just take a moment and let everyone know a little bit about Nurses Bond?

Thank you so much for that. When you mention Nurses Bond, it goes directly to my heart because that's my love. I love, I love Nurses Bond, you know. Nurses Bond was created to fill in that gap, okay, which we have already talked about now, you know, but taking it to another level, not only to nurses but to the healthcare profession, you know, as a whole, and other people, other professions. So you see that bonding, that's why we call it Nurses Bonding with other healthcare professionals. So how was Nurses Bond created? Looking at nurses working in the hospital, struggling as much as possible to help not only, you know, their patient, but what about themselves? And here comes multidisciplinary team, and how do you relate with them? How do you work well with them? Minus taking care of patients, what else do you do? Okay, how do you relate with these people in the hospital? Some people spend 14 hours By the time you are driving and coming, you know, those that I know, even in federally, um, in the VA, some people work 16 hours. So your second home is in that hospital. And who are your parents and your family members? They are fellow nurses, right? So this is what Nurses Bond is all about— building a community of healthcare professionals that come together to share values and ideas together. At professional levels and beyond. What does that mean? What does that mean at professional level?

I was gonna say, for me it means like the sky's the limit, really. That's what that means to me.

Yeah, so you, you come together to talk about issues affecting healthcare, issues affecting your patient. How can you be a better nurse? How can you be a better healthcare professional? Minus taking care of patients, how can you take care of yourself? We talk about burnout, we talk about pre— um, Stress, we talk about depression. Who do you talk to when you leave work? Okay, or let me ask the other question: who is the best person to talk to? Your fellow nurse, a doctor, you know what I mean, another healthcare professional. Where do you get these two, these people? Nowhere. Do you know that we don't have time? We started Nurses Born and we added comedy to Nurses Born so that we can help, you know, when we do our social night healthcare professionals networking event, which I'm going to talk about We bring comedians so that we can just loosen up, you know, unwind, you know, because of the stress of school, because of the stress of work. It's now difficult to even make healthcare professionals laugh. Nothing make them, you know, nothing make them laugh anymore. So this is why we, you know, we, um, we try to create— we created this Nurses Bond to help to form a community of healthcare professionals aimed at empowering each other. Do whatever you want to do. Self-care, okay? Go back to school, get into leadership, meet friends and family, talk about real estate, you know, talk about things about life, talk about life insurance, you know, live as human beings. Other than you are just there to provide help for people and you don't have help for yourself, right? So that's what Nurses One is all about.

Awesome. And, you know, I know from firsthand experience that you also offer a variety of different avenues to help individuals in their career or in their ability to bond with other healthcare professionals or even other professionals in leadership, for instance. And so you have a lot of programs that Nurses Bond offers. You have the annual conference, which we're coming up on the third annual conference conference. Um, I believe it's— what is it, the 23rd, 24th?

23rd and 24th.

23rd and 24th. And then you also have a leadership program, correct? Aspiring Leadership or Aspiring Leaders Club?

Aspiring Leaders Institute. Yes, Aspiring Leaders Club, now Aspiring Leaders Institute. Let me talk about the, um, the conference now that you have mentioned it. See, Nurses Bond, like you said, we have a variety of programs that we bring. Number one is annual conference. And what happens with this annual conference is bring in industry leaders, healthcare professionals to talk, to come and talk about their life stories, you know, success stories, challenges, what they have faced, and how they have been able to navigate, you know, a kind of networking organization. And I know people want to say, people usually say, what am I going to learn? What am I going to learn? This is just for your professional and personal growth. So that's what it is. And this year, our Um, thought this is going to be our third annual conference, which we tagged Collaborative Efforts, okay, or Innovative Strategies, Leadership, you know, Education and Entrepreneurship in the Virtual Space. We want to empower people, okay, to get into leadership. We want to empower people to get into, you know, you can be whatever you want to be. You want to be a master, you want to go back to master's, nurse practitioner, um, what's it called DHD, um, right, become a CNO, become a CEO, whatever you can be is there. Let's say you want to start your own business, there are other healthcare professional businesses, you know, someone like you that are over there that I can also show them that yes, you can start. If you see any gap, you can fill it. So this is what this, um, conference is going to look like. We have made it in a way that there is nobody that will come to this conference without learning everything. And one good thing is it comes with a guarantee. At the end of these 4 hours each, you will get 10 CEUs, which is, you know, continuing education credit. And at the end of it, if you think that you did not learn anything, we give you back your money. It's money-back guarantee because we are not playing. Our goal is to make sure that you grow both personally and professionally. At the end of the conference, let's say you register and you didn't learn nothing, you get your money back. And I assure you that when you even attend, you will ask us for more programs and you will join us. Um, you know, this opportunity for your audience to look into, um, nursesbond.com, you know, under events, click on, um, our annual conference and just come and see for yourself. If it doesn't work for you, just take it as, you know, you know, just laying down on the couch and watching TV. But I guarantee you that is going to be— you're going to be pleasantly surprised. Yeah.

Well, I can attest that the lineup is stellar, and I appreciate you mentioning that if no one learns anything or feels like they didn't learn anything, that you will refund their money. I think that's awesome. It's really a no hassle to get in there and watch it. And then people have how long to access the content if they're not able to attend like during the day?

Okay. Oh, 30 days. So we start in the morning and end at 12 on Saturday, on 23rd, and on 24th again. We start from 7:30 Pacific time because, you know, we are mostly in California, and I just want people in the East Coast to also have, you know, get the morning, you know, part of it. So if you are not able to attend and you register, at the end, shortly after the conference, you get the, the link and you can watch it. You have 30 days to complete because of the CEUs and just turn it to us. And once we see that you are done, then we can give you your continuing education credits if you're a nurse. Unless you just want to learn, there is also a survey at the end of it that you can be able to give us feedback on what you learned. And that is, from that feedback, we will know when you say you didn't learn anything and get ready. So I challenge you know, listeners today. Okay, come and prove us wrong. Okay, come and prove us wrong with this great lineup of speakers. And, um, thank you so much.

Yeah, my pleasure. So, you know, you have a lot going on. You have your hands on a lot of pots. You have lots of resources out in the community in nursing, um, lots of people that you're connected with. Um, you have so many opportunities for nurses out there to engage with you, to, to work through some of the programs that you have, or even connect with some of the people in your network. So why don't you take a minute and just share how individuals can get in touch with you so that they can learn from you, collaborate with you, or even be one of your next business partners, perhaps? How can people get in touch with you?

Thank you so much for that. I used to tell people that, um, you know, I'm not money-driven. I, I just want to empower you to grow. And if you want to talk out, you know, get in touch with me. I am everywhere. You can see me on LinkedIn, you know, my name is Chibuna, C-H-I-B-U, and, and it's probably the only Chibuna you're gonna see there. And, um, any social media handles, you see me. Or you can just go to nursesbond.com and, um, you know, look at filling the forms there. You will see me. Another way I love so much is my Aspiring Leaders Institute at nursesbond.com too. So this is an area where, you know, I help facilitate the program where we help people to get into leadership, know what, you know, they need to do to be a leader, how to walk, talk, dress like leaders, and how to get to that leadership position they want, you know, how to celebrate baby steps and so on. So if you think that, okay, you want to get into our programs, reach out, reach out to any of us, you know, at nursesbond.com and fill out the little form there. And, you know, one of our associates will get in touch with you. And that's how to get me. Everyone knows that, like you said, I am very accessible and approachable. That even though some of us don't have that 6 to 8 hours, but you sleep 6 to 8 hours, then what do you do with the whole other hours? You work, you come home, you help people. That's just how it is. And, uh, I know I forgot who made this statement, said, be ashamed to die until you have done something for humanity. So my goal is to do, give, give back to the community.

Awesome. So thank you so much, Chibuna. I will have all of your contact information in the show notes of this episode so that everyone can get in touch with you. I want to thank you so much for spending the time with me to talk about one of the big problems that we have here in nursing. And I'm going to call it for what it is. It's a problem and we have to fix that problem. So, you know, thank you for identifying that problem. Thank you for the recommendations that you've shared with us today. And thank you for continuing to be an awesome force within the nursing profession. We are so grateful to have you. Until next time, take care and we'll talk soon. Okay.

Thank you.

My pleasure. Take care. Bye-bye.

And that concludes episode 9 of the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast with this week's guest, Dr. Chibuna Wabia. We hope that everything we've shared for you in today's episode will help to inspire, motivate, and empower you to lead the charge. All of the ways to connect with Dr. Chibu will be listed in the show notes of this episode. If you have any questions about anything we've discussed today, you can visit thenursespeak.com/contact and get in touch with me. I would love to have a conversation with you. So until next episode, take care, be well, and remember that nurses can do anything.