Kerry Daynes’ Inner World: How Trauma, Empathy & Storytelling Shape Our Lives

I always say that if you have a propensity towards violence and you want to be a functional psychopath, go into the military because you can have a great deal of success there. Online societies and communities can be fantastic and very, very supportive. We do need to just go back to basic community. Human connections are the most powerful thing that we have to heal.

Hi and welcome to another episode of Her Voice Impacts. I'm Daniela Eon and we are amplifying women's stories globally from arts, entertainment, culture, business. So many women with so many inspiring stories and journeys. But today I have the pleasure of talking to Kerri Daines, a well-sought-after forensic psychologist, and her journey is very interesting. She's written these amazing books. I'm going to be talking about the books, but also we're going to be talking about her story from her soul and also how she is impacting other women who have gone through situations in their lives such as stalking. And I found sitting down with Kerri so enlightening because she has gone into the minds of of some of the darkest stories of other people's lives and how she has mixed empathy and compassion into this. And you will find it very interesting as well because it speaks to the heart of the human and how we are all human and at the same time creating community to bring people back together again talking about their story. Storytelling, storytelling is what it's all about. So let's check out Kerri-Janes and her amazing story at the same time. It is such a pleasure to have you here on Her Voice Impacts, and as you know, soul story is so important for so many women listening, and you definitely do have one. I've had the pleasure of reading your book, The Dark Side of the Mind, which I have not been able to put down. It is so intriguing, and also how you're interweaved in that. This is the beauty of your writing. It's like you and then the characters, and then the, as you said, the level is probably is PG of what I'm reading, and I would like to know more, of course. This is a really interesting journey that you've had. And I read in the beginning of the book that you used to spend time with your grandmother watching movies, and that's a beautiful way to start this story and how you entered into being a forensic psychologist. Because a lot of people think, oh, psychology, yeah, you just talk to people all day and sort out their problems. It's a little bit more than that.

My, my grandmother was, was, was Irish, and she had a little flat, and she had a little black and white television set because of course this was the '70s. So all of my cultural references come from television, I realized when I was writing this book. But she used to enjoy watching, uh, Westerns, so we watched all of these Westerns with— I developed a crush on John Wayne.

Oh my goodness, well, who wouldn't in those days?

It all meant to be 6 foot 5 and, you know, and riding a horse.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Preferably, preferably not many of those in Manchester. And she'd always say when the villain came on, oh, he's a bad'un, he's a bad'un, or a bad'un, a bad'un. Yeah, she used to put a J in there. And I think I grew up with these notions that there are good people and there are bad people, because that's, that's every fairy tale we're ever told, isn't it? And I thought, well, obviously I want to be on the side of, of good, and I want to do something heroic. And I started getting interested in true crime, but I'd always been interested in, shall we say, the more unusual and macabre. I used to really enjoy reading Roald Dahl as well.

Um, wow, what a mixture!

Yeah, I didn't read his children's books. I read, um, the books that— Tales of the Unexpected.

Wow.

Where— I think that's what it was called, Tales of the Unexpected. It was a whole collection of short stories.

Yes, yes.

And they were so You know, there was one about, um, an elderly landlady that would taxidermy her, her, her, uh, bed and breakfast visitors. So you can imagine what this must do to the psyche of, of, of me as I'm growing up. So I think that I just felt attracted to a life less ordinary, shall we say. No, I, I decided, but actually later on in life, that I was going to become a forensic psychologist. I initially was hoping to go into advertising. I wanted to be an advertising executive.

That makes sense because psychology is marketing in a sense as well.

Exactly why I took psychology at university. And I always say that actually my My reason for pivoting was because of the influence of, uh, cider and hormones during Freshers' Week, because a very good-looking boy in the law subsidiary. So I decided to take the law subsidiary, and I never, I never plucked up the courage to speak to him. No, no, no. I sat— this is it— I was very quiet, I was very shy. And I sat and I looked at the back of his beautiful head. But I did it for a long time, for a long time, yes. And I got very interested in psychology and law because I found that, you know, the subject fascinating. So I got pulled in by the law subsidiary, and I loved psychology. So how could I marry the two together? Well, here we go. We've got somebody who enjoys true crime I'm going to become a forensic psychologist. And somebody actually said to me, that's no job for a girl.

Oh, well, well, let's look at the data.

Exactly, exactly that. So I actually think we need more men in forensic psychology.

Yeah, you did say that.

Over 80% female. So, but that was like a red rag to a bull to me. I was very idealistic at that time. You know, so I thought, no job for a girl. Well, I'm going to show you.

Yeah, you go in, you go in as a lady. Yeah. And this is the, um, great thing is that it, it kind of— what I'm getting to is that if you didn't take a step out to even do that, you wouldn't have come to that conclusion that you'd like to be a forensic psychologist. Even though it started with marketing.

Yes.

It took you on the journey. And sometimes we want everything to show up all at once and go, oh, that's what I've got to do there. My life is sorted, but I don't think it's that way.

This is it. And I get so many messages from aspiring forensic psychologists, which I absolutely love, but I always say to them, don't specialize too soon because you don't know whether a passion is going to arise out of just doing a general psychology degree, and you might find that it's not forensic psychology that floats your boat or is your passion. It might be child psychology, or it might be marketing, or it might be, you know, there's so many doors that psychology opens because, yes, of course, it's, it's the science of everything and everyone. So I just think, don't make those decisions too soon. Wait and see which, you know, which subject really, really speaks to you.

How important is it for that self-discovery to happen at a young age? And to be in that place of exploration.

You've got to explore, haven't you? You've got to take different avenues, and some of them might be dead ends. And I know that I was very keen to get on the career ladder, you know. And once you— why is that?

Why did you have to—

you've got to keep climbing. And actually, I don't know, to be honest, as As I've moved, moved through life, you know, I've, I've pivoted at various different stages, always held true to psychology. But I think that you've just got to be, be curious and, and see what, as I say, what speaks to you and what is a real passion. And I'm very, very lucky in that I can honestly say that my work has been my passion for 30 years, which means that if I didn't have to work, and unfortunately I do, but if I didn't have to work, I would anyway.

Yes, I love it.

I would do it as a hobby. So I think very few people can say that, but when you can say that, it's, it's a life well lived, isn't it?

It absolutely is. And, and I think what we're seeing now in young women and, um, the power of social media and, um, the choices now have become very different to what they are and what they were in our time, right? And so then you look at it like, how do you explain, from you being in, uh, this area of psychology your entire life, where are we heading with, um, the power of social media and this facade? Because a lot of it kind of is. And then the reality of what life is.

I know. And so many young girls now, they want to be influencers.

Yeah, I was just about to say, without—

it's just, that's one of the areas where actually women do make more money than men. So I can understand. Yes, yes. And also women feel that they need to go on to OnlyFans. Um, yes, because they're told that that's also a way to make lots of money. And so I think that there's a lot of selling your soul, really. I think that some people do influencing really, really well and really authentically, but for many, I think they're chasing a dream and they're trying to project an image of themselves that isn't truly them. And I think that when what you do is out of line with actually your core self, who you are and your values, it just creates so many problems, doesn't it?

I so agree with you, and the amount of women that I have had the pleasure of sitting down with have said the same thing. If you are out of alignment—

absolutely— with your soul—

now, your flesh and your body and your mind might say one thing, but there's something distinctively different about the soul. Now, I don't know whether— if from your studies as a psychologist, where do you see the level of the soul playing a part in this, this life's journey?

Yeah, I'm very, I'm very practical. I'm very practically minded. So when I think about the soul, what is it to me? To me, I think your soul is your, your core values and your, your core motivation and your passions, what you deeply care about.

Yes.

And I think that, as you say, if, if you follow those then you never really will work a day in your life. That's the saying. Of course you will, everybody has to work a day in their life, but it will keep you going through those, you know, those times of hard slog, and you can sleep deeply at night. I think that it just— we talk a lot about happiness and the science of happiness.

Yes.

And of course I always do boil it down to, to, to science. And actually there is, there's so much evidence there about, like, as you say, alignment with what you truly believe. And I think so many people go through life not really knowing what their core values are.

No, Kerry, this is what I was going to talk about, in fact, of like, how does it work when, you know, you possibly might have not grown up in the most amazing environment, first of all, or your parents or caretakers were not very kind to you, or this system that you were invited into with your schooling or education, or you just, just didn't have that opportunity. How does someone tap into the resource of going, yes, my soul is guiding me and I need to get away from all of this. You know, it's actually—

and the thing is, it's easy to say, isn't it? Follow your emotions, follow your soul. But actually, practically, how do you do that? And you're so— the last thing that you're thinking about, you'll think about how you're going to, you know, feed your children or what you're going to do when you can't, you know, you can't read or write. The majority of the men that I worked with in jail had very, very poor literacy skills, and one of the most important and life-changing things for them was, was being taught to read and write.

Yes, yes, the basics point of view.

Yeah, but then I also see I'm going to, I'm going to use, um, I'm going to use one of my clients here. So, oh, I love it, that people know as Charlie Bronson, Charles Bronson, who is to some people Britain's most violent and disruptive inmate in jail, and certainly has been that during his time. He's not that now. He's now 70, 71, I think Charlie is. Wow. He's changed his name to Charles Salvador Oh, okay. Yeah, because Salvador means, uh, man and beast, and he feels that at times he's lost his humanity in prison. And so I know, so that's— that reflects that. And he's— he's now efforts, and he does put effort into maintaining his humanity. And a big changing point for him was when somebody gave him, whilst he was in solitary confinement, a piece of paper and a pencil. It was as simple as that. And you have to understand that actually in jail, somebody can use a pencil as a weapon.

As a weapon.

Yeah, exactly. So there was a level of risk in giving him a pencil, but nevertheless, and the prison officer said to him, come on, Charlie, you can't carry on like this. Why don't you try and write your feelings down, draw your feelings? And now Charlie views himself as an artist, and whenever he's struggling with, you know, flashbacks of things that have happened to him, or rage against the system and authority, he pours it into his artwork. And that is his passion, and that is his soul spilling out onto paper. And it's really enabled him to to turn his behavior around and also just find so much value and meaning and worth. He's raised thousands for charity via his artwork.

That is—

he's had 9 books published whilst, whilst an inmate. Yeah, so he's changed his story, things. And I think, you know, just the self-esteem and the achievement and that, that, you know, that allows. So I think that for an awful lot of people, really is a matter of what opportunities have they had or had not. And I lecture to, um, A-level students who are thinking of going into psychology, and they do love some gory stories. And of course, they all love the word psychopath. Everybody's intrigued by the word psychopath.

What? It's because it's on social media everywhere. Are you dating a psychopath? I was sleeping with a psychopath. It's like, seriously?

And who hasn't referred to somebody as a psycho? Yeah, you know, they're psycho box, they're psycho. Yeah, if I hear that from somebody on a date, I'm out the door. I don't want to hear about your psycho.

Red flags if he's a psycho.

Exactly. But what I talk to them about in amongst this, this, this quite lurid subject of psychopaths is actually what separates a very successful, highly functional psychopath from somebody who is a dysfunctional psychopath. And often it is the ability to, you know, control your impulses, combined education and opportunities. So signs of psychopathy, you know, being, um, risk-averse, being fearless, being able to make quick decisions, which some people would see as impulsivity, um, they, they are things that we look for in, in business people. Yeah, yeah. So can be actually highly functional in certain types of environments. So that just shows you that it's not necessarily the individual, but how that individual, how far shaped, yes, by the opportunities that they are given, how they can control the dials, I suppose. Can they turn down their impulsivity? Can they turn up their risk-taking when they've, when they've done a little bit of calculation? Um, that's, that's what separates somebody. And of course, it does help if they don't have a propensity towards violence. I always say that if you have a propensity towards violence and you want to be a functional psychopath, go into the military because you can have a great deal of success there.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, I do think that there are niches for most people, but it's whether or not they, they find them. And so many people get, get lost.

Yes, they get lost.

And then, yeah, and so many, so many traumatic and dysfunctional and discriminatory things happen to people along the way, shape their journey, and then they become something that often society doesn't even recognize as human. But I think it's very important that we do recognize the humanity.

It's amazing that, like, I— because I hear this compassion and empathy, and, and some people would just be black and white and say, no, these people have done horrid things. And— but you've had to see both sides because you've obviously sat down with, um, many people, and, and even women in particular, who, um, have had to defend their life and their children's life. And there's a reasoning why they did what they did. So you must have to filter through so much before you get down to the real person.

Yeah, absolutely. And what I try and maintain Um, is rational compassion, and that's a concept that I got from— oh gosh, I think his name is Richard Bloom. I do apologize to him if I've got this wrong, but there's a, there's a wonderful book called Against Empathy. Oh, and it talks— I know, and you would think, doesn't it, against empathy? Surely we need lots of empathy. Yeah, don't we? Yeah, empathy, actually, when you break it down is two things. So there's affective empathy, so feeling how another person feels. If you tell me that you've had a terrible day or, you know, you feel sad, then I'm going to feel sad for you. Um, but there's intellectual empathy, which is knowing why you feel sad. So there's the knowing and the feeling, the two separate things.

Yes.

And actually, if you feel too much that can be a real hindrance to making good decisions. Yeah. You can imagine in a forensic context, as you say, people have had dreadful lives, and yet they've, they've also done terrible, inexcusable things. They've made choices that are wrong. Yeah. And so if I were to over-empathize with them, then that would be problematic. I wouldn't be able to do a good risk assessment., and I wouldn't be able to say when necessary, actually, I recommend that this person is not released on parole. Wow. So it's, it's about—

and you've been in that position where you—

luckily for me, it's the judge that makes the decision. There's 3 members of a panel for a parole board, so it's not me that makes that decision, but they look to me for a good scientific— yes. Risk assessment that is not based on my emotions. So it's about balancing that, that rationality. So absolute clear logic— what do I know? Strip all emotions out of it. If this means that this person needs to spend another 10 years in jail, so be it. I've got to be realistic about who they are and what their capabilities are and what might happen to them in the future that then might result in another offense. But also, I always want to bring compassion to that. And I think the difference between compassion and empathy— and as I say, it's a fantastic, fantastic book— um, is that compassion is about recognizing that we all have rights, human rights, and always having those rights in the back of our mind. So for example, if I'm assessing somebody who is dangerous they have the right to be assessed very, very thoroughly, right? They have the right for me to not only look at the factors that make them dangerous but also look for protective factors, what would make them less dangerous. Yes. And look for ways that we can, we can understand their story and treat them as human beings and give them the, you know, the, the most opportunity that we possibly can provide them with in the environment that they're at. That for me is, is compassion. So it's not so much that I am a, you know, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal accused of, you know, but, but that is what I try and bring to everything. And it's funny, a lot of times I've been accused of being a man-hater Which is ridiculous.

I know, it does sound ridiculous.

I think it's because I've worked with men who have done some dreadful things.

I, I did read in your book.

Yes. And I'm not going to make— I'm not going to make excuses. I always say that violence is a choice, but some people have fewer choices than others. Yeah. And I think that people sometimes think that I, I go softer on the women that I work with than the men. And that's absolutely not true. And I also think that, um, people think that because I appear on television in crime shows— and I think it's very important to say no, this behavior is unacceptable— and I point out where society goes wrong as well in terms of blaming victims, for example, or maintaining stereotypes about victims. But that's not me man-hating, because if I hated men, then trust me, I wouldn't be able to sit in a room with somebody who has raped a child, maybe, um, and sit and really try and view them as not just their actions but as a whole human being, and try and unearth that, that story.

That— wow, I think always unearthing a story out of someone that has done horrific, uh, things to other humans, that is a gift to be able to unearth the story out of them.

You have to work on it. It's a skill that you— yeah, yeah, you can learn.

I, I don't think that I could stomach it. And I think it's like, um, if you've had, you know, personal experience around it or something, you, you can get very quite, um, the emotion comes up of like, oh yeah, it's just not right, it's not right, you should not be able to even tell your story. And I love because I want to pivot into— you said one quote, 'If you don't tell your story, your story will tell you.' Yes. Tell me about that.

Right, it's a quote from The Examined Life. Oh, and again, I can't tell you— I've got so many books and I'm very good at remembering titles but not necessarily written them. So again, I apologize, but it is— it's a book and it's a very small book actually, but it's written by a psychotherapist Okay, and they're very, very gentle stories, but there's some lovely things that you can learn from it. So, uh, and that is a quote from it, and I do truly believe that if you don't give voice to your story so that you yourself understand your story, that you understand it, but also that somebody else has witnessed it I think that's one of the most important things that therapists do, is actually witness somebody else's journey and their truth. Because often these people have not been recognized at all. Nobody, nobody has seen it, and nobody has said to them, I'm so sorry for some of the dreadful things that have happened to you, and this was wrong, and you were failed, and you were let down, and it's okay to feel angry about that, it's okay to feel sad about that. So I just think that if you don't have those two things, understanding your story and somebody to witness it for you sensitively, then that story will, will, will fester. And it will— it, you know, every— all the young people are talking about triggers, aren't they, at the moment? Everything comes with a trigger.

We're all psychologists now.

Yeah, we are. And it's, it's very, um Yeah, it's TikTok psychology. So it's very— I don't know how to describe it really. It's something that drives me absolutely mad, but it's rarely very scientific. And it is, it's these brief takeaways. But nevertheless, yes, we are triggered by things and in ways that are really quite surprising and subtle sometimes. And then we flip into, you know, unhealthy child modes. And whether that is us becoming a bully, or whether that's us becoming, um, you know, helpless, or, uh, you know, there's just a myriad.

These are learned childhood behaviors, aren't they?

So I suppose you would call it acting out, which is a phrase again that I don't particularly like, but people will, will act out And the number of times I've seen people repeat their histories over and over again until eventually they can go, oh gosh, yeah, now I understand it. Now I see the loop that I'm in. Now I see the cycle. And that's the first step. And then it's like, okay, but now we've got to start to try and break that cycle. Yes. But, but yeah, it's, it's amazing really. I, I do think that everything that we experience gets encoded one way or another into us. That's not to say that people who have traumatic backgrounds will, will go on to have terrible lives, because that's absolutely not the case. And it doesn't mean that people who live through trauma are dangerous. Um, I work with a, with a, you know, a small percentage of the, of the population, but I think that we all carry that, that childhood trauma, those childhood experiences. I have therapy. I've had therapy myself, and it's amazing. It's amazing. Wow.

Yeah, forensic psychologist having her own therapy. I mean, it's just— and, and this is— we've got to normalize this, because if we don't have anyone to talk to, who are we talking to then?

Yeah. And sometimes I think, well, is a therapist doing the job that some really good friends would do. Yes. I think that if you've got a really good network of friends, and friends who are willing to be honest, that's the important thing. I've got a brilliant friend who told me when I was engaged to be married, I will be your bridesmaid, I will smile on your wedding day, I will do whatever you want me to do, and I will say this to you, and I will only say it to you once, I will never say it again: do not marry him. Run for the hills. Run for the hills. Really? Yeah. And that a really good friend, and we can say to each other, you're being, you know, she's very dramatic. So I say, oh, you know, we're getting the drama queen again. Let's, let's try and cut through that. And she'll tell me when I'm, you know, doing something that I shouldn't do, or I'm, I'm being ridiculous, or my ego has overtaken me. So I think honest friends, they're, they're usually people's first witnesses, aren't they? Yes, everybody has that social support network.

No, no. And, and I think this is why we say, oh, we're so, um, connected now because we're all on, you know, on these devices. But we're more disconnected than—

we are more disconnected than ever. And what was it that I saw the other day, that a lot of people are forming relationships and falling in love with their AI companion? Yeah. Yeah, many stories.

They're marrying them. I don't know where that's—

so ChatGPT is the best conversation that you've had. I know, I mean, we're laughing.

Where are we heading?

Yeah, but this is— where are we heading? Yeah, where are we heading? And I think that we're so bombarded, you know, never have we had so many ways to connect, but also so many ways to be exposed to problematic and, and damaging information.

It's—

yes, I think the world is really, really very frightening. I'm glad that I don't have children, if I'm honest.

Yeah, and I can understand it. And I feel like because we're entering a whole new era, it's like all of these new theories or new ways of doing things have suddenly appeared, and you just think, how do I navigate that when I I've, you know, lived in a particular way and now I've got to just, you know, establish myself.

As, as we, as we go through, I think there'll be more and more of a return to basics.

Yes, simple life.

Yeah, it's quite, it's, it's quite interesting, isn't it, that I think that, um, a lot of people spend a lot of money to go somewhere where their phone is taken from them. They have a digital detox.

Yeah, it's great.

They, they simple, clean food. I know. And then talk to other people, you know. And this is, you know, people spend thousands of pounds on this.

And clearly, let me tell you, but I heard, I heard the craziest thing someone had said on, um, some social media, that it'll come to the stage where people will pay for someone to take them for a walk.

Yeah. I know, I know, I know. So I mean, I think if that, if that works for you, go into the forest, have the sound bath. You know, I— this is it. We, we, we talk about all of these different therapy ways of doing things, and some of them are really quite— you know, people will spend thousands of pounds to go and sit in cold water, or you name it, smoke sage over them. I think whatever works for you. I've got a very open mind, but I do think that sometimes you have to think, right, I need to go back to that, that hierarchy of needs.

Yes, yes.

Go back to actually very, very basic things. Yeah. And I think that— and I learned this working in secure units— the importance of community. Yeah. I think that we all need to find our tribe. Yeah, we really do. And I know from— there's been periods of my life when I've been desperately unhappy, and there've been periods of my life when I've been desperately lonely. And I really do understand that loneliness is a physical pain. And we're now— do you believe that? Yeah, we're now starting to get the scientific research to, to back up just how damaging loneliness can be. And I think that again, at our core, at our core, we are all, to a greater or lesser extent, social animals. Yes. And I think that we need to go back to basics. And maybe rather than looking for our tribe online— online societies and communities can be fantastic and very, very supportive— we do need to just go back to, to basic community. And that's why I personally, um, take time to— I'm chairwoman of a local park.

That's right, you told me about this, right?

Yeah, local park. So I walk my dog, which is my particular form of mindfulness, but also I know everybody in that park. And there's a cafe, and, um, we sit and we drink tea, and we are people who in any other circumstance would not meet each other. And maybe we would meet each other and think, well, they're not like me, so I'm not going to talk to them, you know. And actually, we're, we're a, a strange group, but of people who have just got wonderful stories. And they've all got their own idiosyncrasies. Yeah. And some of them have got mental health problems, and some of them believe some quite strange things, and some of them are very straight down the line, you know, fascinating, middle class. And we all get together, and we all— and I think this is really important— we don't judge each other. We just talk and we laugh and we learn from each other. And actually, for me, that is the— if I, if I could recreate that That is the best form of therapy, I think, for people, to be in a circle where you're just having conversation.

But is it also too a physical thing? Is there something going on chemically? I mean, I'm not a scientist in that respect, you know, there must be something.

I'm sure that the oxy— you know, the oxytocin. Yes. And I just think that it's, it's a huge stress relief, I think, to be outside in nature as well.

Yeah, so you've got that too.

Yeah, but I just think, you know, I know from having, um, worked with people who, um, were diagnosed with various psychotic disorders and maybe would hear voices or believed some strange— or what, what most people would—

I read about that in your book.

Yeah, or strange— yeah, strange things. Or, you know, plagued by, by voices or strange experiences. And we, of course, as staff members, we're not encouraged to talk about ourselves in any way. And I think often the— because there are boundaries, and I think it can be too— it's, it's necessary in forensic circles, but it can be also too patients and possibly also staff's detriment. And what I noticed was, was when these people were taken to community groups, hearing voices groups, and they sat with other people from all walks of life. So actually, the person in that group might well have been a mental health nurse, and they're saying, well, I hear voices too, and this is how I cope with it. And actually I live my life, you know, I succeed by the fact that I, I, you know, I have these voices. And yeah, here are things that I believe and other people don't believe them, but they're listened to by the rest of the group without, without judgment, and everybody learns from each other. And it really does, it, it, it normalizes the experience. And yes, just, it provides a level of support that I think that sometimes professionals in their ivory towers. And I think so often clients used to say to me, well, you've got a perfect life, you've got no problems. Yeah, from the truth, right? Let me tell you.

Yeah, have you got a few hours?

Yeah. And I have very, very clear boundaries about what I will talk about clients, uh, with clients. But I do try and give not just Kerry Daines the forensic psychologist, but Kerry Daines the human Yeah, even though a lot of forensic psychologists have been dissuaded from that. You know, I've had supervisors in the past that tell me to be, you know, robotic like an automaton. But this is it. I think that then you've not got the human connection, and I just think human connections are the most powerful thing that we have to, to heal each other.

Yes, yes. Without human connection, I don't think that we are able to even process the emotions because we haven't got anything to bounce it back off. Like, you're sitting there on your own, you know.

You could be— don't we?

Yes, yes, yes, it is. And it— that's that whole mirroring thing, you know. It's a message. It's a message is coming back at you.

Yeah. And of course it can get very, uh, twisted in that the reflection can come back somewhat distorted. And that is where it is helpful to have a trained psychotherapist.

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I was going to ask you, Kerry, when you look back across your journey, which chapter in your— as a book— which chapter, um, still whispers to you something that has shaped you and strengthened you? What is that small whisper?

You know, I think it's probably a lot inside of the mind. There are so many moments in that book because I, I thought, how am I going to— how am I— what stories am I going to tell? How am I going to pick 10 stories from my career? And I thought, well, I don't want to— I don't want to tell stories about serial killers. I don't want to tell stories that glamorize crime. I'm going to tell the stories that, that affected me. So it became a memoir of my journey and the way that my mindset changed you know, going from that very black and white mindset that I developed from watching westerns to where I am now. And it's funny, I got a bad review on Amazon. It said, uh, there's too much of the author in this memoir. Yeah, I know, this is it. You can't please all of the people. Never. But writing that book was so cathartic for me. I cried all the way through it. With the second book, yeah, my, you know, my hair was falling out with that book for various reasons, but it was, it was so cathartic, and I didn't realize how many things I'd, I'd squashed, suppressed. Yeah.

Did you find it healing? Was it healing for you?

It was, absolutely. So it was just, I, I just went through a period of time where I was just Yeah, she's typing and sobbing at the same time.

It's—

wow, makes it sound like a really miserable book. It's not. It has got jokes in it.

It's not. I can't believe I, I laughed in some sections. Actually, I'd be laughing.

Yeah. Um, the sense of humor is so important, but there are so, so many moments and so many things that I have learned from my clients And so I think was the first line. I can't remember what the first line is, but I know it was something to do with how I've learned from my clients. It's a two-way street. I wanted to— yes, yeah. But I think that, you know, I, I wrote about my father's death in the second book. I wrote about— I wrote about all kinds of things, but I wrote about my early experiences in The Dark Side of the Mind.

Yeah, yeah. I— and, and you are a brave young woman situations that you were putting out, like, I would have freaked out.

Yeah. And I, you know, I did have a very, very abusive relationship.

Yes.

At the age of 20, 21, 22.

And these are things not spoken about too, remember? Like, a lot of young girls suppress this and, oh, it's okay.

Yeah. And I think that people think that, oh well, it only happens to, to weak women. And actually, it happened to me at my most vulnerable, because that's when they will— they will recognize it and pick you off. But for me, it was— well, it was a baptism of fire, and it was a learning curve, and it was very, very painful. But I think that that experience, and also the experience then later on when I became the victim of a stalker Yes, I read about this, like, what is going on here?

And that person just sounded utterly—

I know. So I became the victim of a stalker around sort of 2012, although it went on for years. He was stalking me for a couple of years before I knew it. I know. And that felt very similar to me. I felt like I was being subjected to this unwanted relationship. So it very much—

it's a cycle. Yeah. Yes, the emotions.

And actually, there was a pivotal moment for me where I thought, you know, I'm in abusive relationship with a man that I've never met. Yeah, I would never want to have any contact with.

Yes, but you feel the same feeling.

Really angry. How bloody dare he? Yeah, you know, I've, I've been there, done that. So it got me very, very angry, and that anger was harnessed. And then I started to, you know, I'm now a trustee for the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, which runs the National Stalking Helpline. I am the chair of the, the National Stalking Consortium.

Look at that!

Shape the way that we respond in law and in policing to stalking, um, and there's a lot of work to be done, but you know, we can save lives doing that. So would I change any of it? Do you know what? I absolutely wouldn't. I really wouldn't, despite the fact that— I mean, I don't want to give too much away, but both of those events took me to really terrible places. Terrible, terrible places. Really, they really did. And the, the humiliation that, that I felt as a 22-year-old when I eventually did take, um, this, this man that I'd been seeing for a short period of time but was very abusive to court, and the way that was reported on in the media, you know, I'd— it, it was something that I thought that I would never recover from. I thought that my career was over, that, that this was it, I was done. And actually, it hasn't turned out to be like that. I don't believe that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, because sometimes what doesn't kill you just traumatizes you terribly for, for a long time. For a long time. But, you know, with help and with friends, um, and with, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna credit myself here with a bit of grit. Great. Yeah, yeah, you can get through. But I do appreciate that, you know, I've had, I've had opportunities that others haven't. And I had— and something that, you know, I thank my lucky stars for— I had a great dad. Yeah. So, wow, you know, my, my, my early experiences of, of men were very, very positive. So it wasn't that I was going to then repeat abusive relationships. That is, you know, I'm so grateful for that. Otherwise, I think the story could have turned out really very differently, could have kept going on.

And that is the beautiful thing, that you had that wonderful relationship.

Yeah, no, I'm always, always thankful for that. As much as he used to drive me absolutely baps at times, you know, could drive me, drive me mad more than, more than any other, I think. But yeah, I'm very, very grateful for that and just the, the very solid background that I, that I come from.

It's very important, isn't it, um, as a daughter or a young woman to have that relationship with their father if they can have that.

Yeah. And if not their father, then a father figure.

Yes.

And I think it's so, so important for men as well. And so many men don't grow up with that father figure.

Absolutely. And we're seeing that more and more, is it the absent father? Yeah, you know, whether he's not there or he just works a lot or just not able to integrate in some way, because they too probably didn't have a great upbringing with their own father.

I know. But having said that, I also think, and maybe this is one of the, the good things about, you know, that the TikTok generation is that I do notice that men of my generation are really putting more effort into being, being good fathers. And sometimes that comes from a place of recognizing what they didn't get.

So yes, yes, we are seeing, and it's more visual because we're seeing so much. It was all hidden before.

We didn't know.

You weren't going to go to the neighbor's house and watch them and see what they're doing. Now we're seeing it on a device. My like, oh, that's what people do.

And I know that you and I share, um, a guilty, a guilty pleasure, which is reality TV.

Yes, it's terrible.

Yeah, I know, it's dreadful.

I know, but it's all about human behavior.

Exactly, exactly. I'm watching it, I'm watching it for professional reasons. Yes, my brain cells. But one of the things, and there's so much terrible things that we see on TV. But I think that one of the good things from reality TV is we've seen the birth of the bromance. Yeah, we've seen men start to have deeper friendships with them together, and I am so here for it. I really— I cheer when I see young men crying and hugging on television, you know.

It's so absurd. Yes, but it has shifted that way. I mean, um, you look at Love Is Blind and all them, and so many different countries, so many seasons now, and you're starting to see that where the men are like together and they're like, yeah, we're doing this. And so it's like, wow, interesting. And they're getting a bit more in depth and opening themselves up and stuff.

So, no, so I think that, you know, that's, that's what it— it's not all doom and gloom, is it?

That's—

no, we need to, we need to recognize and, and encourage, um, you know, and there's so much negative import for men on the, you know, of course, on the internet, the manosphere. So the more, the more hugging and crying they can do on reality TV, the better, I think.

Well, it helps the world and it helps us heal because we're here to heal. Where I do believe that we're on this earth to heal something within ourselves and within humanity.

Well, there's, there's the great poem that, that I have quoted on more than one occasion in court So am I allowed to swear?

You can, yes.

Okay, so yeah, trigger warning, trigger warning for a swear word. Yeah, which of course is a Philip Larkin poem. They fuck you up, your mum and dad, they don't mean to but they do. They give you all the faults they have and add extra just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn by men in high-topped hats and coats. Who half the time were soppy stern and half at each other's throats. But misery is passed from man to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as quickly as you can and don't have kids yourself. Oh gosh. So apologies to Larkin if I, if I, you know, I didn't get that quite correct, but wow.

Yeah, and he's like you said, it's a cycle and it's a loop that we all must do the work to try and stop, you know. And, and here, you know, we are talking about women and them having, you know, the desire to have impact, uh, within whatever they choose to do in their life. Like you said, it's a journey, right? What can you leave us with, Carrie, that really can give that inspiration to—

all right, so I'm going to give you some women Inspirational quotes that work for me. Um, Madonna has never been an icon of mine, so there are lots of reasons why I wouldn't point to Madonna for, for self-help. But she did, she did talk about the power of reinventing herself, because of course she's really— it's her image. And actually, there are times when I thought, right, I need to reinvent myself. Whatever that means for me in that, in that moment. So I would say that a quote for me is, life is a series of new beginnings.

Oh wow.

And I think that no matter how dark things seem, you have to realize that actually the sun is going to come out at some point and happier days are around the corner. And I always say to people that nothing stays the same even if you want it to. No, even if you wanted to, you know. So it's actually one of the tragedies of life that things don't stay the same, uh, when we're in a beautiful place. But equally so, I think it's about taking your power in these moments and thinking about how am I going to actively reinvent myself and how I'm gonna actively, uh, do things to help myself so that when that sun comes out you know, I can make the most of it.

Yes, that is brilliant. I do love that. And it is true, you know, things have to change. You can't just be in the same, same moment for the rest of your life. And reinvention is something that, as we go through the journey of life as a woman, we, we have to press into that. We have to reinvent, um, throughout the timeline. You get to a certain timeline, you you know what, I think this is now time for me to do this and reinvent into this, or take on extra, you know, skills, or go back to study and, and do those things that you just didn't get a chance to do.

I'm going to be 52 in February. Congratulations! I know, I know, 52 in February, and I am still reinventing myself, you know. And sometimes you have to do so out of necessity. You know that I've lost my, my hearing And so, yes, yeah, I'm now deaf, and that makes things difficult to work in the forensic arena. But, um, you know, I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but I, I just know that I'm going to actively evolve with it as much as I possibly can. Yeah. And try and, try and shape it as much as I possibly can.

It is amazing that we didn't even get into to talk about that, the fact that you're able to lip read.

I know, like it's ninja level as well.

Yeah, but still, I mean, it's amazing because there's no pause in between. It's just like we're talking and you're like, it's all happening.

Oh, it's tiring. It's really tiring.

I can imagine. I can imagine.

And then you've got people that cover their mouth, or people— yeah, or know that you're deaf, and so start to talk like this, like this, it makes it harder to—

worse, because you're gonna—

what are you trying to say? What on earth are you doing?

Yeah, because no one walks around going, hello, how are you?

No, exactly. It's like Brits abroad, is it, when they talk to people and they don't know the language, so they just talk very, very slowly and very loudly?

Oh God, it's better just to talk normally, and then you're going, okay, we're just having a normal conversation, and I'm sure if something you did didn't hear or understand, you'd be like, well, can you say it again? Like, it's quite simple, right?

Yeah, you do get embarrassed, I think. Well, I get embarrassed if you ask several times over. So some people are easier to understand than others, but that's, you know, that's life anyway, isn't it?

Well, I tell you what, you're, you're amazing.

It stays the same. We are constantly—

no, and we're made to evolve. Yeah, evolve. Next level. I always think, like, when does this evolution stop?

But I don't think it does, I suppose. And then probably, I guess, stop.

Then it's another story. Ah, we wouldn't want to go into that conversation. What happens after that, you know? Yeah. I want us to just quickly tell us about the books, please. Please put them up again because I want to see them.

All right. Okay, so here's my little sales. I know. Well, I just—

I, I love the books, and I think they need to be talked about.

So this is the first book, The Dark Side of the Mind. So this is very much a memoir, but as you say, intertwined with, with stories of clients who have taught me so much. So you get to read about my, my failures and my successes and how, how my, uh, mindset really changes, really. So it is an evolution, the, the book. Um, and then the second book, which I did have fun writing, it's got a bit less of me in it. As you can see, The Dark Side of the Mind sold enough that they allowed me to have my face on this particular book.

So the other one—

yeah, no, I got—

yeah, it's not even me.

Yeah, it's got— I'm a headless person on the other book. So you know you've made it when your face is allowed on. But I was contractually obliged not to smile, so looking very serious. Very forensic of you. Very forensic. Yeah, yeah. So, and, um, these are stories of madness, badness, and misunderstandings that we have about the people that, that I work with. And, um, I, you know, there are certainly emotional moments in this book for me, but also I had a lot of fun writing it.

Wow, I, I can't wait to get into the second book. I want to thank you so much, Kerry, for being on Her Voice Impacts and giving us a part of your story, but also just the interesting life that you have had as well and continue to have, because thankfully, fingers crossed. Yes, absolutely. And I'm looking forward to more books.

That's what I want.

I want a whole—

like, I know that's a challenge for me at the moment, but yeah. I've got to write more books, haven't I, in the future?

You do have to write more books, and I kind of feel that you're going to go into books where they're like, um, characters are going to build into big like trilogies and they're just going to continue on.

I don't know, maybe some crime fiction books.

That's what I thought.

Yeah, based on true stories.

Yeah. Oh, I'd be in it. I'd be in it straight away. And usually I'm more of a like, I like to read a books about theory and psychology and all that kind of thing, but I don't, I don't have much of a mind to sit and read these type of books. But this one was like, I just can't put it down, couldn't put it down. The Dark Side of the Mind.

I was like, no, that, that is music to my ears. And hopefully, you know, there's a little bit of— there's a— there is psychology in there, it's interweaved in there. It is.

Yeah, yeah. But the thing I like is that you're in there too. This is the weaving of it is actually really interesting because it can—

it—

I was able to come in and out and go, okay, yeah. And the thing is, your writing is so visual. Like, I am immersed straight into the situation. I mean, some of it's scary, and I'm like, I can't read this at night. Yes, a little bit scared. But then everything was okay. So like, story, it's okay, it's not you going in there. But I feel very immersed in, into, into the storyline each time, each new chapter. I was like, Oh, good.

What am I expecting? I would also hope that it would challenge your way of thinking about it. Did it really? Did—

yeah, it really did. And I would love to have an actual personal chat with you, um, at one point. Yeah, because I— there's a lot of things there that are very relatable, very, and quite like, oh, you have chat with her about this, but that'll be for another time.

Yeah, no, absolutely. We're always available by Zoom.

Oh, bless you. And where's Captain— Captain Potato. Oh, he's gone! He's gone! Go get him so we can say goodbye to him. And at least he needs to have a little— he's having a goodbye moment. Oh, darling! Oh, hey, Captain! Oh, you had a big nap from your other nap.

Also, he's a very cheeky little thing, but whenever he's in front of a camera, he seems to fall asleep. He's like a dormouse.

Oh, it's so— look at his little face though. It's so— oh, he's tired. Kerry is tired. Absolutely beautiful. Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you, Kerry. It was a blessing. Thank you.

It's been a pleasure.

Talk soon.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.