Ask Me Anything: Finding Purpose, Raising Resilient Kids & Navigating Workplace Politics | Vol. 27

Do you have any tips to change mindset and maximize the little free time I get to recharge?

Isn't this the question of all questions? What questions are tugging at you right now? And how might exploring the answers to those questions help you unlock your potential? Welcome back or welcome to a special edition of the Finding Mastery podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, by trade and training, a high performance psychologist. And this week we're turning the microphone around again. And instead of diving into the mastery through the minds of our remarkable guests, we're going straight to you for another Ask Me Anything episode.

What is my ultimate purpose in life? Is it truly possible to detach ourselves from the fear of what others think?

You've submitted deep and thoughtful, vulnerable questions about life, performance, relationships, and navigating the complexities of the human experience. And in this episode, I am joined once again by author, documentarian, podcaster, football analyst, and all around renaissance man and my friend, a friend to the Finding Mastery community, Yogi Roth. I'll be offering insights and perspectives that are designed to help us all think a little differently.

I'm trying to figure out what is my ultimate purpose in life.

That is a cool question. Know your value. Keep doing the work that feeds you, that you're fueled by.

I know that after this, we're going to be better human beings because these questions, Mike, today, are absolute fire.

So let's jump right into your questions, my reflections, and an exploration of what matters most right here on Finding Mastery. What a treat. We get to do this again.

Settling in, settling in.

And in some kind of odd world here, you know, is that one of the great treats of the AMAs is to learn from our community and then to sit with my friends. So, Yogi, thank you for doing this again.

Yes, back again. This is great. This time I'm going to hold you to it because you did say we were going to paddle out when we're done. So I'm counting on that when we're done with these AMAs, because I know that after this, we're going to be better human beings because these questions, Mike, today, are absolute fire. Your community again shows up, so let's dive in to Emma. Okay. Because this one, this one landed on me. I think it's going to land on you pretty hard. Okay. As a leader overseeing a department that drives the most strategic initiatives and holds the majority of the company's know how, how do you navigate the balance between collaboration and protection? Protecting your team's expertise? So sit in this, the land grab Type question follow up. Specifically, how do you engage with other department leaders who may attempt to expand their scope or take credit for your department's ideas while also ensuring effective cross departmental collaboration for the company? So how do I kill it? Well, I know some people might be trying to take credit for what I am doing.

Yeah, I mean working with folks like that that are a bit Machiavellian or backhanded or untrustworthy, it's tricky. It's really tricky. I think the first principle here is to not play that game, you know, to, I don't know, was it Michelle Obama? When they go low, you stay high. Something along those lines. So that's my first impulse is like there are, there's wolves, there's wolves that are dressed like sheeps. There's sheepdogs that are trying to bully your way through. Like there's a lot of different behind the scenes slippery. How do we do it? Operate from your core values. And I'm going to say that so often there's a reason that some of the greatest thinkers of our times have pointed to first principles and values. Keep coming back to anchoring your decisions, your thoughts and your words from those values. If fear and protection, let's do fear. If fear is a first principle, wow, you're in good hands. Most people, their first principle is not fear.

Define first principles for us.

First principle is when you reduce all of the ideas that you could work from. What are the ones that are the kingpins that help everything else move? You know, it's an engineering term. First principle, it's also a philosophical term. What are the foundational principles that your psychology, your life perspective is running from or is working from to be more precise. The first principle is a love of good work. A first principle is, it all kind of sifts out in the end anyway. If a first principle is the cream rises to the top. Like you don't, you won't get, you won't get bullied if you will, by other people's land grabs. When it does happen, you have a choice. Do you call it out or do you backdoor it? And there's a risk to both. So if somebody is in a public place and they're calling out work that you clearly were a significant part of and they're taking the credit for it. If you stand up in that moment and they have, let's call it more seniority or they have more political capital than you do in the organization, I'd be careful. I'd be really careful about that. However, if you're ready to kind of put a flag in the ground and be like, hold on. Say it's you and me, and. And you're kind of taking a land grab of something I contributed to in a meaningful way, and I felt slighted by it. The risk of me not saying anything is that I just got stepped on, and a lot of people know it. The risk of me saying something is now I've just challenged, you know, the. The whoever kind of the. Has the seniority. That could be really dangerous. So either way, I think there's a cost. Knowing which one feels well ahead of time, which one feels like a greater risk would be important. So I would say, know your value. Keep doing the work that is. That feeds you, that you're fueled by. And I would be the one pointing to other people. And so now I'm doing great work. I feel really good about who I am, and I'm helping other people shine. And if I am uncommonly consistent with those three, I just became inherently more valuable than anybody that's trying to slipperly take a grab of land. So I would work from those principles first and foremost.

Yeah, I like that. That is. That's real. Because I think politics are everywhere, right. They're part of so many different environments. So I love the idea of, like, get back to who you are and just pour that part of you out, and then you have to make a decision.

You've got to make some decisions, because if you get stepped on, it's not cool for you and for your teammates. If you do say something publicly, get ready for a bit of a dog fight there as well.

This. There's a lot of cool questions that come through. This one is beautiful. This comes from Sandra. I'm trying to figure out what is my ultimate purpose in life. How do I find it, or how do I see it?

That is a cool question. I think that this is one of the biggest rocks to get in the container for a good life, and there's one. I'm in the midst of building a course to try to get all of my ideas out around this, and I think it'll be available in the public soon. So here's kind of the beginnings of the thinking. Your purpose does not need to be this grand thing, this unifying, singular purpose that's going to change the world or, like, wells in Africa or trees in the rainforest. It does not need to be this grand, singular thing that other people would be like, oh, that's amazing. It can be super, like, subtle, but matter uniquely to you. My purpose Is very clear. It's to help unlock the potential that lies dormant in people. And that gives me a place and a reason to show up in. Everywhere I'm at. Like, I know when I'm with you or when I'm anywhere. Like, that's my purpose here. It doesn't mean that I'm trying all the time to be a coach. Like, that would be silly. According to research, there's three tenets to purpose. The first is that it matters to you. Nobody can give you your purpose. It has to uniquely resonate with you. The second is it needs to be bigger than you, so it's not just about your needs getting met in some way. So it's bigger than you. It means it involves other people or mother nature in some kind of way. And the third is that there's a future orientation. Okay, so those are the elements that purpose rests on when you're trying to figure out your purpose. According to science, it's got all three of those variables. I want to come back and make sure that I'm saying this one more time. It does not need to be this grand thing that, you know is approved by others, that it's magnificent in your life purpose. It can be really small, like being a great parent. My wife's purpose is to be a great contributor to her family. And it's amazing. That's what her life right now for. Her purpose in life is to be a great contributor to her family, to make a difference in my life and my son's life, her parents life, her sister's life, our extended family. That's what she wants to do. Amazing. Some people is like, yeah, mine is Wells in Africa. Great. Whatever it might be, your job is to get so clear that you can begin to articulate why you are here, what are you doing here. Now, that rests on your values, your first principles, your vision of a compelling future, and then making a fundamental commitment to make it true. And that's what I'm helping people do right now. So if you want to know what your purpose is, we'll give you a methodology. But you need a couple other pieces to go with it to make it exponentially more powerful. Purpose, vision, first principles that rest on your values, and then making a fundamental commitment to make it so. And when you get those in place, it's pretty special. Finding mastery is brought to you by Kachava. 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Again, use the code finding mastery@macwelden.com for 20% off your first order Of $100 or more. Last bit here. How do you do that? You gotta get quiet. I think you need to write it down. Not everybody wants to write. You know, it can feel kind of overly academic, getting quiet, writing it down and talking it out with other people. But I would caution folks to talk out your purpose before you've got some semblance of what you think it is. Because once you bring it forward and out, then there's another variable at play, which is another person's approval or disapproval of it. Or. And if you can go into a conversation with 80% of it worked out and you're very clear about why you're sharing it with another person before you've got it locked in, you're going to have this wonderful moment for calibration. But let the calibration be your signal, not what they do with their eyes or if they agree or disagree. But as you say the words, which ones are resonating? And when you do this right, one or two or three of the words as you say your purpose out loud will have a unique resonance to them. Your heart will jump just a little bit. You'll feel it in your throat. There'll be some sort of emotionality around it. That's when you know you're on it. And the first time I did this work, I said it out loud. It was. My dad was nowhere around me, but I knew as I said it, it was for his approval. He wasn't even in the room. He was hundreds of miles away. And so I want to caution against the approval or disapproval from other people as you're working out your purpose, even when you're doing it. I did it by myself with a piece of paper. I was challenged by a mentor of mine to write my purpose down. No real instructions. And then when asked what it was and I said it, I knew it wasn't honest.

Yeah.

So here's the cool thing about this.

Is that amazing?

Yeah.

Oh, you know.

You know.

Is the version. My understanding in psychology is the reason that you say it out loud is to be held accountable by the people that you trust. Is that accurate?

There's a version of that, you know, if you're. There's a version of that. I like that science as well, kind of backs you into a little bit of a credibility corner when you say it out loud. It also, there's some research around publicly stating goals that it can diffuse its intensity. So it's actually a mistake to do that. I don't personally vibe with that bit of research. The other thing, but what I'm pointing to is when you say it out loud, is for you to be the calibrator of truth. Is this real and honest for me, or do I need to take some more turns at it? Am I cultivating this thing? So other people say, mike, that's so amazing. Oh, wow, that's a problem. It'll never be big enough.

The question is really cool. And again, I reiterated from Sandra, I'm trying to figure out what is my ultimate purpose in life. How do I find it? How do I see it? Is there something to putting a mirror up to Sandra or any of our lives already? To be like, this is what your actions are showing you? Because I think, whoa, purpose versus what do you do every day? What are you doing in your free time? Like, what are you reading? Like, is there a world like that that can help somebody at least go down the road of, like, these are your habits right now?

Maybe, maybe not. I think I like where you're going, because how are you naturally spending or gravitating your free time? Like, what are you gravitating toward? And I'm not sure that's the great. The great beacon for if you're on it or not. It could be for somebody that's already kind of intentional. But if somebody feels ragged in the world that they're living in, and then, you know, because the pace and speed of business or. And they're just trying to keep their head above water, they might just be trying to get sleep and. Or they're doing things to kind of numb their anxiety. So that might be a little messy to consider. But I do like where you're going. I don't have. I don't know another way other than to say, you gotta get quiet. I hold a pen or a pencil with paper and I start being honest with myself. That eventually gets me to a place. And then when I do bring it forward, I'm using that as an external calibration. I'm sorry, an internal.

I think the judgment thing is real. Like, I think about in. At least in entertainment. Right. And maybe you've dealt with this too. Okay. Mike is the high Performance psychologist. Like, you have a lot of disciplines within your background, right? Whether it's family relationships. Like, you have a ton of skills in your regard, but you can be put in a bucket by other people to read the book, right? First role mastery right there. Fear of other people's opinions right behind me. I can remember being in early on in Hollywood, it'd be like, well, he's this guy. And I'm like, well, I like to write, I like to talk, I like to perform, I like to act, I like to improv. I love sport. Like, don't put me in a bucket. And I could. It probably took 15 years, Mike, to get to the place of, what do I want to do in life? I want to live a full life. That's it.

And then. And then when I. When you say that, I say, well, what shape does that take? And whatever that shape is, is likely going to get down into your purpose 100%. You know, like, again, it could be. It could be wells in Africa, it could be trees in the Amazon, or it could be, you know, something. Something. You know, let me not put any thoughts in your mind. Like, what is your purpose? Do you know your purpose? And I'm not asking you about your philosophy of life. That's something separate, which I know you've done a bunch of work around. But do you know your purpose, to.

Me right now in my life is really clear, is to show up and crush it as a husband and a father.

Yeah, that's purpose.

Like, that's it.

Like, but you and Lisa, my wife, it's the same tonality of purpose.

And I think that in the world of that question, I think there's a tension that exists for all of us that none of us create, that we just feel of, like, well, that's it. You know, like, what else. What else you want to do? Because we see worlds that I think have purpose, that inspires us, maybe is aspirational, like, there's a lot of cool things going on on the planet. It's like, I'd love to do a little of that. Try a little of that. Jump out a little there. Try a little of this. And I feel like when asked that question, at times you can feel like, is my answer good enough? I'm whispering that, you know, you don't want to say, is my answer good enough? Too loud?

Yeah, but that's why I'm saying that the internal calibration, only you can know if it's hitting the note of truth or not. And if that's it, if that is it Great. And it's more. It's more powerful to have the knowing, even if the words aren't quite exactly the way or if no one else sees it. No problems at all. There's some. There's some rite of passage for adulthood that you downregulate what people are thinking about you.

When did it happen for you?

It's been probably a slow burn. I wish it would have happened in this kind of lightning bolt moment. It's why I wrote the first rule of mastery is because I need to get down on paper how it worked for me and what were the core principles. It's not like I'm completely immune to it. But I do think that when you get in touch with your own suffering and you invest in understanding the sufferings of others, all the other bullshit fades away. And so I've spent the last 25 years needing to create the container for other people to be radically honest with who they are, the struggles they have, and the aspirations of who they want to be. Then to create that container, you get down into the truth and you stop talking about goals. Yeah, goals are fine. I'm not going to butcher them. They're fine. But you go far deeper than that and you start realizing, like, you know, these. These other things that I once thought were important, those are kind of childish. I just put those down.

Yeah. We could talk about this one all day long. We'll move on though, to David.

Wait, wait. Before we go further, I do want to ask you with your purpose, when you walk into a room and let's say it's a business engagement, how does your purpose mindset? How does your purpose influence how you show up? Are you skilled at bringing that purpose forward or are you sucked into the narrative of having to perform or to be great for other reasons?

What I feel is that I've done a ton of work on a pre performance routine. Like, I have a very specific pre performance routine in terms of I go into a room by myself and I say a version of the following of Yogi. The goal right now is to go do it better than it's ever been done before. Make sure you be where your feet are. You've earned the right to compete freely. So focus and trust all of your preparation. I look myself in the mirror and I say, all right, man, you've earned it. Go compete freely. Let it freaking rip.

Boom.

High five. And I'm out. And it's on. So I think there's something like, if you looked at my call sheet as a broadcaster, it's a big piece of paper that has a bunch of names on it and stats on it. Whatever the bottom it says, celebrate the game, coach the viewer. So I think in the world of performance, the performers of the world, in tv, at least, we can easily make it about us. I'm sure I have. You're called upon stages many times, Dr. Mike. All the time you're asked to go. And at times early on in performative careers, I think you can make it about you because you're either anxious, you're nervous, maybe you're arrogant, like, whatever you're feeling, then at some point you make the turn. And I was lucky early in my broadcasting career of like, what am I about? I'm gonna celebrate the game and I'm gonna coach my mom watching it. I'm coach the viewer. So that is my lens when I'm giving a corporate talk. Okay, I'm not celebrating the game of football, but. But I'm celebrating an ideology, which. Whatever. I always talk about chasing what matters. Clarity, confidence, and discipline within business, within sport, within your family, within your craft. And I'll go to town on that. And I like something you said in our last AMA and on my recent podcast of how are you serving others? And I used to think that servant leadership was like a religious term, because I think it'd be coined sometimes in that regard. We talk about quarterbacks all the time, but I don't think it is anymore. I think it's more of like, how can I just serve my offensive line by standing in the pocket properly? How can I serve the audience by bringing something and elicit a conversation? How can I serve my family by killing it so I can get paid? That element has really resonated over the last couple years.

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Appreciate the back and forth here. Okay, let's go to David though. This one's amazing. As a father of a seven year old. Okay, so think about Grayson, seven years old. I would like to ask how do I help my son develop a strong sense of self efficacy that can withstand the hard blows of life?

Cool question. So it's begging the Philosophy that there's hardship and hard blows that come in life, which first. I do agree.

I hope so.

Yeah. I mean, life is this wild, wild terrain, and there's some real tough things to navigate. So getting ahead of it is cool. The kind of the big piece. So let's define efficacy. It means that I feel powerful within myself, and it's not the type of power like I stand over you and dominate, you know, it's not that. It's like, it's more subtle. And it's a knowing that I can figure things out, that I can influence how I show up in this world. And that influence has power. I think it's really important that we let our kids figure things out. So we had helicopter parenting. Then it moved to zamboning parenting, which is kind of smoothing the ice out in front of people. I think the divots in the ice is really important. And so mistake making, failure experiencing hardships, adversity, if you can allow them appropriately to be experienced and not be overwhelming for the kid. And I'll tell you, experience I have with Grayson. But your job is to, like, help them explore, make mistakes, get a little skin on the asphalt, like to go for it, to feel what it's like to sort it out. Because that is what gets called on later. I know that I can figure things out. I know that I can do hard things because I've been afforded that as a parenting model. My parents gave me. They're laissez faire in, like, they gave me lots of space. That's basically what that means. I'm not suggesting that's the ideal model. According to research, it's more authoritative versus laissez faire or authoritarian. So they hedged on that laissez faire, which gave me. The upside of it is that I had to sort things out. So I know I can figure things out. They gave me that, and that has served me so well. So let them figure it out. Let them feel some struggle. Let them feel the suffering. Support them to experience the hardships and challenge them to be honest with navigating through it. With your help. Early on with my son, I grew up surfing. I love surfing. I really wanted Grayson to go surfing with me. I took him out. It was too big. The waves are too big. I did that two or three times. I didn't get the lesson. And so he doesn't love surfing. So I kind of missed a moment with him. Thank goodness he loves skiing. You know, I'm really happy about that. We get to do that together. But so I created too much adversity for his frame. It was too big, it was scary out there. And so that's why I'm saying appropriately matched. And if adversity does happen, your job is to get down to their level, see them, create as much safety in them struggling as possible. Does that make sense? Right? Not kind of fixing the thing, but being at their level with them. And then the other thing I would say is like you want to point to the things that are in their control. So you want to, to celebrate like a wild person, their effort, their attitude, their when they're figuring things out, when they don't know and how they stay in it. Like celebrate the parts that are 100% under their control because that gives them the framework to stand up with self efficacy later. That's all the framing of it. Like early in my life when my parents are like, yeah, nice job getting an A as opposed to Mike, nice job studying totally different. And they did the effort bit way more than they did outcome in my life. So I'm thankful for that. And then if you can really understand them. So what we do, and you know this as well as anybody, what we try to do with athletes and executives and teammates. My responsibility in many parts is closing my eyes and imagining what's possible for you. And that is the greatest gift I think I can give you. So when I close my eyes and think about yogi, like what would be an amazing future for you? And then whatever I can see, I'd share it with you. And then you would say, no, no, no, it's not that. I go, oh man, I gotta go back to the drawing board a little bit. But I'm trying to see a future for you and then so I can help navigate and guide and support and challenge you along that way. So that part is really cool for kids is not in an overwhelmingly ambitious way, but staying at Horizon 1, 2 and 3, spend as much of your time on Horizon 1 as you can with them. Setting that Horizon 3 is magical and amazing. We'll get there later. But Horizon 1 visions of what amazing there looks like gives them something that they can get their arms around and, and sense, if you will. So H1, horizon one kind of thinking with them is cool. And then the last thing, the fourth thing I'll say is acknowledge all of their feeling. Just put a name to it. Looks like you're sad. Oh, wow, you're really pissed off. Okay, this is scary to you. And I sound like I'm being almost like, I don't know, a Parrot to their emotion. Just acknowledge the emotion they're feeling. Because relationships are running the damn show. And emotions are what are fueling the relationships. The relationship you have with yourself and others and Mother Nature and experience. It's emotions that are the thing that is right underneath the surface. So help them be great with their emotions.

Okay, let's stay on this. So there's a book that is just crushing it. The Anxious Generation. You know what I'm talking about?

Yeah. John Hudd.

Yep. There's a world where parent. The crux of the books, take the social media away from it. Right. But it's really like we have lost the. As a parent, giving ourselves the green light to be like, hey, son or daughter, go walk to school. Come back when the streetlights pop on. Like. And I feel that as a parent in Los Angeles, maybe there's other parents in metropolitan communities where you're like, you read about everything all the time and there's like a van driver, like, whatever it might. That's a real thought. And two things can be true your child. Our children need to explore. They need to have that sense of self discovery. Your point? Figuring out this like you did as a child in Virginia, in the backwoods there, as you did, man. So what would you say to that? Cause I struggle with that. I think even as a parent, and I imagine others do, where you don't want to snowplow, you don't want to do all the things that you referenced and you know that there's like some danger lurkering out there and, you know, they need to have these experiences that. To go find freedom and find themselves and figure it out.

It's a good question. The idea that we feel like we're living in a more dangerous environment that we did 20 or 30 years ago is a real feeling. I feel that too. So I recognize what John is talking about. Yeah. That it feels less safe to me now than it did then. I am going to support my son to take risks socially, emotionally, physically, in relatively safe environments. Action sports is a great way to do it. So when you don't have parents and adults that are coaching you, it's a great way because you got to figure out your relationship with swift consequences, Mother Nature. But outside of that, in more sterile environments, we are coaches and we need to stand up and make sure that we are not saving our kids from every little thing. And it sounds easier said than done. I'm not having Grayson kind of run the streets, even though that's what I did. So it's a Little bit different. We live in a world where E bikes are all over the place. I think paramedics are just not picking up the bodies anymore. These E bikes in the cities that we live in, these 16 year old kids, 14 year old kids that have helmets on that are ripping around. It's wild how radically dangerous that is. Not every city across the planet has this E bike phenomena. But oddly enough Grayson isn't interested in it. So I'm kind of cool with that. So that's fine.

One more follow up on this. You really nudged me in the concept of positive psychology and my interpretation of doing it with our oldest son Zane and even our little guy is I take him to a climbing wall and it's this example where they climb, fall, climb, fall and ideally it's working on their self talk, their self efficacy if you will of I got it and then they get it and they're just building that. I think I took that interpretation correctly from you. If so, can you expound on that of what like a model in positive psychology could do for David and potentially his son and other kids?

Well, what I hear you using. So positive psychology is like a, it's a sub discipline in, in the science of psychology, which is the study of flourishing as opposed to the study of dysfunction. Sport and performance psychology is also the study of flourishing, but it's really about performing well and doing well in high speed or where you have to be accurate with your decisions and or your behaviors. And so there's a bridge between those two worlds which is the excellent. The study of excellence is really what sport and performance psychology is about. And then the study of flourishing and positive psychology, but that's not what you asked, what you framed it is that okay? So if we're thinking about creating and pointing to aspirational goals of what could be and what's amazing for the kids that sports where they have to figure it out on their own, like climbing, they get some instruction. There's so much value in that. And I'll give you one small example that I think parenting we can, we can model, it's called the discovery model of teaching and the formal instruction. So if you're going to teach your kid how to shoot a basketball, you could stand next to him and you could say right, I want you to cock your elbow in, have about a 90 degree rest of ball on your fingertips and snap your wrist and extend and point to one o' clock and do that a thousand times and you'll get better as a shooter. Formal instruction, guided discovery is toss the toss the ball to your kid and say, go ahead, put it in Where? Up there in the bucket. Yeah. Figure it out. And they miss. And toss it again. Great. Toss it again. And when something, when they do it well and goes in, they're getting natural feedback. A better example is if you're teaching your kid how to do a forward roll. You can say, tuck your chin and put your head down, and then put your hands here and then flip your feet over your head and roll down the hill. Okay. Or you can say, hey, let's roll down the hill together and let them go. So they discover what a side roll is, what a forward roll, what a back roll is, what a log roll is. And they might not get the forward tuck roll down. It might take them a long time to do it. But now they've got this wild range of figuring out their body in space. It takes longer to get good, but then you've got a big frame underneath of it. I am such a fan of guided discovery when it comes to learning as opposed to formal instruction. So your climbing metaphor is a little bit more about guided discovery than it is about formal instruction.

All right, let's move on to Jennifer. If acceptance and connection are fundamental human needs, is it truly possible to detach ourselves from the fear of what others think without becoming emotionally unstable or indifferent?

Yeah, I mean, it's a cool question.

What chapter of the book?

Yeah, yeah, I know. That's a cool question. It is. I, I, I'm wondering who's the question?

Jennifer.

Jennifer. I'm wondering, Jennifer, if you're asking that question, because I did not answer this in the book properly, you know, or that it's, you know, maybe it's a new idea for you. So I, I do think it sounds cheeky, but I did take a good run at this in the book, and the way I answered it, which was a little bit invisible, I wasn't concrete about this. But if you read it and you appreciate a first principle of interconnectedness, that all things and we are all connected, like there's a unity that we're working from, which happens to be a first principle in Zen Buddhism, is that it's embedded in there. So we are connected. And the idea of trying to separate ourselves from another person feels like there's a little bit of a contorting to that first principle that. I do want to hear the question one more time, but my first response is like, wait, hold on. We're fully connected in this thing. A healthy separation, if there's such a thing, is is more of an appreciation for your experience and another person's experience. And your experience is uniquely yours and theirs is uniquely theirs. And when you engage in any activity to make sure that you are not over indexing or tuning to what they are determining is success or failure or acceptable or unacceptable or truth or. Or not. So it's again, I'm going to use this idea of being a tuning fork for your experience in life rather than outsourcing it to other people. Yeah.

It's interesting connection, you would agree. Fundamental needs. Right. Is it possible to detach ourselves from the fear of what others think without becoming emotionally unstable or indifferent?

Without becoming indifferent, yeah. Yeah. When you have love in your heart and you embrace the interconnectivity of all things on the planet, it's not an indifference, it's a rich and deep appreciation for it. Maybe it feels like there's a disconnect happening to. You know, there's two words in psychology for parenting, individuation and separation. And that's kind of what kids are supposed to do. They're supposed to separate and individuate. And the more that a parent or parenting system hovers or has too many rigid structures, rules in place, it's like the leash is really tight. The tighter it feels, the bigger snap that they need to get away. So they end up like breaking big rules to feel a sense of individuation and separation. So depending. So when I hear that question, I'm wondering how constrained maybe you might have felt at one point in your life that you feel that you really need to have that disconnect to get to a healthy place. So there's a lot that I've said in here and I'm not sure that my answer is completely satisfying.

No. I think the first thing, if I'm hearing you right, for Jennifer to do, or anybody who can relate to this question, is to explore a little bit around what happened with you and other people's opinions and why you believe that you need to either be accepted or connected if you disagree with what that individual said.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And when you can see that you are individual, you're an individual, you are separate, but we are all tied together. So this is the. The equal, opposites, confusing piece of the yin and yang here is that they can have their experience, they have their experience. You have your experience. Your job is to bring your very best into it and not be overburdened by what other people think. And look, it is foundational to our brains wiring to want to be connected to other people. That is safety. Belonging is not a nice to have. It's a requirement for safety. And so that feeling like I just want to make sure I'm good in your eyes, it. It's universal. Unless you're a psychopath, a narcissist or a true. You have a true disorder that you cannot understand what another person's experience is. You either you don't care, you're wired that way, whatever. That's not. That's like 2% of the population. So most of us have that wiring. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Caldera Lab. I believe that the way we do small things in life is how we do all things. And for me, that includes how I take care of my body. I've been using Caldera Lab for years now. And what keeps me coming back, it's really simple. Their products are simple and they reflect the kind of intentional living that I want to build into every part of my day. And they make my morning routine really easy. They've got some great new products I think you'll be interested in. A shampoo, conditioner and a hair serum. With Caldera Lab, it's not about adding more, it's about choosing better. And when your day demands clarity and energy and presence, the way you prepare for it matters. If you're looking for high quality personal care products that elevate your routine without complicating it, I'd love for you to check them out. Head to calderalab.com findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout for 20% off your first order. That's Caldera Lab. C-A-L-E-R-L-A-B.com findingmastery I wanna take a moment to tell you about a podcast I think you're really going to enjoy. It's called Think Fast Talk Smart. It's hosted by best selling author and Stanford lecturer Matt Abrahams. And it's all about helping you become a more effective communicator. Each Tuesday, Matt sits down with world class experts to discuss how to hone and develop your communication skills. Skills like mastering small talk, keeping your nerves in check while speaking to large groups and science based strategies to help boost your confidence across all types of interactions. Think Fast Talk Smart is a really cool podcast that teaches us how to communicate better. Take a listen and every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay Alexis, how important is it to identify the source of a problem you have versus building the capacity to move through it? Let me give you an example. Okay, I'll repeat the question first. How important is it to identify the source of a problem you have versus building the capacity to move through it? For example, if an athlete or professional gets over overwhelmed before their big moment, should they try to dive into their past and start unpacking why that is occurring or just start working on what's happening in their mind and body? Start the breath work, whatever other exercises are needed to relax, focus and move through it.

It's a good question. Time and place, you know, there's a time and place to do self discovery work, to go back to unpack it. I have a real appreciation for that work. It's. I mean, it is radical to do that work with another person because you get seen and understood in a different way. There's a rich healing that takes place in that work. You can also do that work with yourself through a self discovery kind of solo process which helps you get to the truth so that you understand really what, where you're working from as opposed to some other kind of more surfacey or transient psychological experience. So, so it's good, it's really good. But there's a, it's a time and place I'm much more interested in. Okay, so you're having this experience instead of like, tell me about your uncle when you were whatever or your first coach when you were whatever. Instead of that, I would go into like, all right, so how do you want to, how do you want to adjust with that? That's great. That is a true experience. That's coming up. Great. Feels like that's a little too noisy for you. It's not working for you anymore. Okay, we can go back at some point, but right now, how do you want to use that and what does great feel like for you? And so then get them to call forward when they're at their best, when they're at their worst. What's the difference between the two? And what is the pre performance routine? What are the practices and what are the deeper capabilities that are required to be that way, that ideal way more often? So that's kind of a deconstruction of how I hear the question.

This is a cool one, man. So here's a follow up for me and I'm a football guy. As you know, football season starts, training camp, let's say in the NFL, mid to late July. College is early August. If I've got something I need to navigate through, do I have to navigate that before the season or can I like work through that in real time once you kick the party off and you're on this regimented schedule.

You can do both. It's a little harder. You know, flying the plane and building the plane at the same time is a, is a tougher challenge. And so when an athlete is injured or an athlete has an off season, I see it as this really great opportunity to go more horizontal and pick something to go deep with. So let's say that for the injury, let's say it's an ankle or knee or something. Instead of like, oh man, like I've got this knee injury. The ones that are pretty exceptional, they're like, yeah, okay, I'm going to work through this. I'm going to do my rehab. Rehab is not my favorite thing. But you know, I've always wanted to read these books. I've always wanted to do this visual eye training. Hey doc, can I get with some of the mental imagery stuff that we've been talking about? Now's a great time. So they find opportunities to keep investing. And if one of those ways to keep investing is to sorting out the things that, you know, the cobwebs and the dark corners and the scary monsters under the bed and the dragons, whatever. Like, yes, once you. Here's the thing and let me finish the thought preseason, I'm much more of a fan of like when you've got the timing in the window to be able to do the self discovery work that's not encumbered by real time performance standards, like take advantage of that and it is a constant work in progress. You don't really ever escape the self discovery process once you've drank from that cup, like you never, never really leaves. Okay. And here's the big takeaway for me is that when you do this deep internal work, it is so powerful because nobody can ever take it away from you. So you end up experiencing your past in a different way, your future in a different way and your present moment in a different way because you're seeing and holding what actually took place and the healing required from it or the aspirational way to move forward once you do the internal work and there's no roadmap for this. It's not like I have the roadmap for self discovery or you do or somebody does. There are set of practices that many of us will say the same things, but going inward to do that deep internal work and if you can do it with someone that's skilled, you'll speed up the, you'll accelerate the growth arc. And so I would point to do it with somebody that's highly skilled. And for me, that means somebody that's been trained in it.

Okay, let's keep it moving, Andy. Every time I achieve something that I've been working on achieving, I have a moment of satisfaction. Sometimes that lasts an hour, sometimes it lasts a day, but rarely longer than that. And then I move back into the state where I'm not satisfied again, like something is missing. Even though the thing I achieved satisfied this completely, the feeling of dissatisfaction continues usually and can move into other forms where it gets worse, where my inner voice is saying things to me like, you're not enough, you're not worthy. You were just lucky before and your luck won't continue, et cetera. And it can get much worse, you know, much harsher than that. It's like this hungry ghost that makes me feel generally unsettled, uncomfortable, and wanting more. How do you deal with this? I'm sure plenty of Olympians and high performers feel this. Your suggestions, what are they and what have you seen work?

One is encouraged that Andy knows what a hungry ghost is. And so that's actually what I was going to go to. I was going to point to the hungry ghost as an analogy. And so, okay, so, Andy, you're there. And that idea that there's this unsatisfied meal, there's this empty meal that, you know, there's a hungry ghost that never gets fed, if you will. And that's really kind of the downside of the self critique nature. And, like, it's not good enough. There's not an easy answer here to point to, like a solution. But I would. I would remind us that when we are more connected to something bigger than us, it gives us something to. To be enveloped with. And so for some people, it's a spiritual framework. For other people, it's the bold thing that they want to do in their life. Like what, why they're here, or in your example, yogi, to be a great parent and husband. And it's not about achieving then. It's about being part of something bigger. And then you have a role to play in that. And your job is to be a great custodian or a teammate or a leader in whatever fashion. So I don't know. I recognize it. For me, it's less now than it's ever been. And so I'm. I'm not riding the highs and lows of achievement like I once did when I was in my early 20s. And so it's more about, like, do you think we made a difference today? And that is not a self serving mechanism. It's me trying to pull my weight. And my wife and I, when we, you know, we did a bunch of counseling work together on a relationship and our therapist said something brilliant. She said, okay, look, relationships are a little bit like carrying water. So Mike, you've got two jugs. Lisa, you've got two jugs. And jugs are heavy. Like, relationships are not this easy thing. So you gotta carry these jugs. And Mike, if Lisa puts a jug down because she's tired, she's overwhelmed, she's had it with you. Will you pick one of those jugs up? Yeah, she was right. And if she put the second one down, would you pick one? Yeah, no problem. I got it. That's a great teammate. But over time, if I'm carrying the wall and I'm going to break down, I'm going to get tired and we need to know how to share and swap back and forth. In my relationship, I think Lisa carries the jugs more than I do. Just to be clear, that being said is when you're a great teammate and you're part of something and you're doing the work for something greater than you, you end up doing things that are not serving just the sense of accomplishment or the notch on the belt. And so that's how I hear the question. I just want to point to be more connected to your purpose, go to something that's far bigger than you. And I think it dilutes some of these concerns.

So, you know, your book is amazing. It won a bunch of awards.

You've won a bunch of awards.

You got accolades all the time.

Yeah.

How do you process through them now, even if it's, hey, you just finished your new course. It's available findingmastery.com or you wrote another book and people gave you a bunch of pats on the back on what's your way?

Early in my life, I was looking outside of myself to see if I was okay, if it was okay. And when I was writing the book, each story, each insight, each chapter was built from a working laboratory with my partner, my writing partner and I, Kevin Lake. So each time that we were trying to articulate something, we ran it through our Tumblr first. How does it show up for us? How does it show up for us at Finding Mastery? How does it show up for us with our family? And so that mechanism was really important to not be clouded with, like, man, I hope that this thing really sells a lot. I did. I wanted it to move because I wanted to share what was meaningful and valuable to me in the writing process. And that writing process rested on us being subject number one in this experiment on how to be free of FOPO. And. And that rested on 25 plus years of working with World's Best to understand that so many of them were gripped by expectations from other people and the approval from other people as opposed to what they really wanted, what they said they wanted, and what they really wanted was this freedom to contribute, to explore their potential and to be part of something special. So for me, what I do now is I have to treat it like noise. And so signal to noise ratio is a very important principle to me. I have to treat praise and critique like noise. I've got an inner circle of people. So I live in the city of Redondo and it's a. Redondo means round. And so this round table of people that I go to when. When I need to sort some stuff out. And so it's that roundtable of people I trust. And it's not even. I don't even have to call those people with the exact question, but I can call up what they stand for and what they would say to me.

Yeah. What I'm also hearing in signaling noise is sometimes. And Andy may be navigating this like, can you. Do you label sometimes what you say to yourself as noise? I wonder that because that's what it feels like. It's his inner voice he keeps referencing. You're not worthy, you're not good enough. You just got lucky. And it's like, no, dude, stop. I didn't like. Is that what you're.

That part of the below the line self talk where you're chipping away and chipping away. It will get you to drive a little bit harder, work a little bit faster, like read a little bit more, study a little bit more invest. But it wears thin quickly. And so I just have such a low tolerance for that and just doesn't work. So all of that stuff where you are. And we know this from research when part of where you attribute the success and or failures, there's this really wild self esteem saving mechanism according to research is like let's say a baseball hitter. And they. They're on a really bad streak. Okay. So it's not working out well. Well. And that that person goes, this bat, I'm telling you, this bat is cra. This bat is the worst bat. Da da da da. This bat is. And they're blaming something outside of themselves because it can't be themselves. And it's A self esteem saving mechanism. It might just free up enough to say, give me that new bat. And then maybe for whatever reasons that helps me focus better and I, I start getting on a run. But it, it's not the long term bet that you want to go on. Okay, but it's a self esteem saving mechanism. The other mechanism is when you attribute, when you do get something that's gone well, that you say, you know what I really poured into it. And you're pointing to the things that are in your control and you're also pointing the teammates that helped you get there. So if you can, and those are kind of the first ring of the pebble in the pond. If you can be clear about what those first rings, as you drop a pebble in the pond, those impacts, it's, it's, I think it's way more powerful. That's great.

Okay, last question.

Yes.

Time for one more. Rajat, he says, I've been reflecting on your book. Okay. First rule. Mastery. Right. Particularly the idea that we can overcome fopo, as you coined. Fear of other people's opinions.

Fear of people's opinions.

Excuse me? Fear of people's opinions. You're right. Okay. By living according to our values, changing our beliefs, and learning from others perspectives. Okay. However, you also state that no one, not even world class athletes, are completely immune to fopo. This seems like a contradiction to him. If even the best athletes still experience fopo, does that mean we can never fully be free from it? Is the goal to eliminate FOPO entirely? Or is it more about learning to manage and cope with it effectively? Since acceptance and connection are natural human needs, does this mean that no matter how much mental training I do, I will always expect experience? Some level of concern about others opinions. Gives an example. Cristiano Ronaldo is playing in a Stadium where 50,000 people are booing him and criticizing him. How is he still able to perform at the highest level? If he, like all humans, has a need for connection and acceptance, how does he mentally handle that type of external pressure? And if no one is immune to fopo, how is it possible for an athlete to stay composed and deliver in the most high pressure situations? It's a lot. Okay, I'm gonna do my best to ask it in one question.

Okay.

Yeah.

Good. Yeah.

Again we're talking about fopo. Fear of people's opinions. Okay. You said in your book no one, not even world class athletes, are completely immune to fopo. Accurate.

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

So if the best athletes can still experience FOPO. Dr. Gervais, does that mean that we can never truly be free from it?

Cool question. I want to make sure we're clear that fear of people's opinions is an excessive worry about what they might think of me. Caring about people's opinions is different. We do need people to care, but we don't want an excessive worry. And so it's not about eradicating Fopo in a way that you are no longer connected to other people. That's not what the kind of the ambition here is. But this excessive worry is. The thing is the mechanism that keeps us from showing up and maybe being our very best because that we've got this other track that's running in the background. How will this go? I don't know. Well, all of the narrative around it, it's this shadow game that's being played that is below the surface, that it's like it chews away at the ram in a hard drive. It's like this energy suck from us doing. What Ronaldo in this example does exceptionally well is that he is able to focus deeply on the task at hand. And when he can focus with all of his might on the unfolding present moment, whatever that task is, and he's not even guiding his mind at the highest level, he's just completely absorbed and he is responding eloquently to whatever is happening, that he's in the highest performative state, the highest creative state that we know for humans. And just underneath of that, when he is focusing with all of his might and he's working with his mind, if he's working with his mind to be task focused, that means quickly he's recognizing if his mind is tuned to like, man, don't look stupid, don't blow. Wait, hold on. Come on back. Pick up the laces. You know, get my footing right. Trust myself. Let's go. Let it rip. Self talk from a motivational self talk from a skill standpoint, it's like the way that you're working with your own mind is paramount to find the freedom that we're looking for. In this particular case, the freedom from worrying about other people's opinions, which happens to be one of the great fears for us. That requires an awareness of how the what's the narration or the narrative of your mind and how you're working with it. I'm not interested in like freedom completely from it. You know, like, again, narcissist, sociopath. You know, those folks are free from it. And that's not aspiration. What we're trying to do it's being able to downgrade it just a little bit, I think is where I would want to start. And we only can focus on one novel thing at a time. Okay. So it doesn't mean you can't focus on a couple things kind of well at the same time, but one novel thing at a time and is what our attention is designed to do. And so if we, if our attention is on the success of worry, it's not on the task at hand. And the present moment task at hand type of focus is the unlock to flow state to the zone to high performance. So I, I, I think that, I think I answered that first part of the question. I don't know if you want to take it any further.

No, I, I like that the, it's the excessive worry and I think that's a noteworthy element to the question and to life in general. Right.

Yeah.

Don't be excessive necessarily in anything unless it's abundance of joy, I would imagine.

Yeah, right.

This has been a blast, man. Not too excessive for me. I love hearing your opinions and I know many of the people ask questions as well.

Yogi, again, it's like a treat to sit down with you. You know what? One, I didn't realize how good you are at asking questions. Like you brought me right into them and, and so thank you for that. Bill, before we wrap, is there anything that was said or unsaid here that that would be that you would want to bring forward, even if it's not really about one of the questions or something that we didn't say in one of the questions that you wanted to bring forward?

I think one of the questions resonated with me a lot because you hear from athletes where you accomplish something and then you kind of beat yourself up a little bit. I've seen this in my career so many times and I have struggled other than really Tom Brady. He's the one athlete that I can point to who in his eyes, he built this chip so large that he went out and became the greatest of all time. I think most people, and you know me well enough because we say it to elite 11 quarterbacks every summer when they'll put on their social media like proving the haters wrong or when I ask you what's your purpose here? What's your why here? What are you trying to why are you enjoying the craft? I want to prove everybody wrong, man. And I just simply respond, and you've done it too, where it's just go prove yourself right. And once an athlete And a quarterback or an elite performer accepts that sentence, they just drop their shoulders differently. So I'd say that to, like, when you're talking to yourself, of God, I just got lucky, or man, you're not that good, like, according to who, like, you accomplish the task. And I'd love to see other high achievers, whether that's in sales, in business, in education, of course, in sport. When you achieve something, it's not like, beat myself up and go right back to work. It's celebrate it. As you always say, connect to the moment, navigate it, stare at it, honor it. Cool, let's go do it again. Or let's do something in the next moment that shows up. So I just haven't seen anybody, Mike, really thrive consistently who's constantly building a chip.

Yeah, that chip on the shoulder works for a while, but then it gets pretty heavy. Even if it feels like a small chip, it just gets pretty heavy. So I agree with you. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, yeah, I thousand percent agree. And I think that early in my life I did have a chip and I'm glad I don't have it now. I do like being competitive. Not trying to be better than you, but trying to be better than I was yesterday. And that gives me a drive, a bit of a prickly edge to it because I know there's more for me to go, more for me to give and to step into. So I need to have, for me personally, I'm not a reclining dragon. I need to have some fire breathing on my front foot, if you will, just a little bit. So, yeah, the chip no longer works for me. I'm glad you're bringing that up.

Cool, man.

Thank you.

This has been a blast.

Thank you.

Thanks for inviting me into the space.

Yes.

Love what you're all doing at Finding Mastery. Go check it out. Finding mastery.com thanks for coming to this AMA. It has been a blast. Keep the questions coming. It looks like I'm coming back again.

Let's do it some more.

Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by Soren Gordhamer, founder of Wisdom 2.0, for a grounded conversation on present presence, identity and the inner skills needed to navigate a noisy world.

This one is a brilliant meeting of minds as Mike and Soren take a thoughtful look at how to stay connected to what matters without getting lost in the pace of modern life. It's a quieter conversation, but one that really stays with you. Join us on Wednesday, July 9th for this awesome conversation. All right, thank you so much. For diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community and if you're enjoying the show, the easiest, no cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or Follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Hunch over to Finding Mastery to sign up. This show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors and we take our recommendations seriously and the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals@findingmastery.com sponsors and remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always, always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional, so seek assistance from your health care providers. Again, a sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.