Confessions of a Democratic Operative

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This week on the Andrew Yang Podcast.

I believe that working class people of all races have more in common with each other culturally and economically than they do with a lot of these Progressive consultants that hail from places like Bushwick or Washington, D.C. that are completely out of touch with them. And so my argument is that if you find the, the message that can win Ohio or Missouri, you'll eventually find the message that can help you win Texas too.

You know, Evan, you're making a terrible mistake, which is imagining that the point is to win. It is my pleasure to welcome to the podcast New York Times bestselling author of the brand new book Nothing Left: Confessions of, uh, I'm gonna put former in there for fun, former Democratic operative Evan Barker. Welcome, Evan.

Thank you so much for having me, Andrew. It's great to be here.

Yeah, I enjoyed your book immensely. A lot of it was familiar to me, though I'm sure it was incredibly new to a lot of people. I wouldn't do it, um, because You rose through the ranks as a fundraiser, fundraising consultant for a lot of progressive candidates. You came to this as someone who had health issues in your youth. And so you were a poster child for Obamacare back in the day as a teenager growing up in Kansas/Missouri. Can you share with people your Origin story?

Yeah, and I still have health problems. But I was born with a genetic lung disease similar to cystic fibrosis called primary ciliary dyskinesia. I know that's a mouthful. And I, as a child, was actually diagnosed with asthma, just bad asthma. They didn't know what I actually had till I was 15 years old, Andrew. And it was hard at times for my parents to always get me access to health insurance. I grew up in a predominantly working-class family. Many of the men in my family were union construction workers, and so I kind of grew up in a Democratic family. Back then, Missouri was a bellwether state. And, you know, it was hard for my parents to always be able to afford health insurance for me. Prior to the ACA, insurance companies were allowed to discriminate against people with preexisting conditions. And so, you know, there were times when my parents just could not afford to put me on a high-risk plan, and I didn't know if I would be able to go to college or not. I am a first-generation college graduate. graduate, and I really credit the ACA with making it possible for me to be able to go to school and not have to worry about the issue of health insurance. And so that's how I first found Barack Obama's campaign, actually, in 2008 when I interned for him when I was still just in high school, and I worked 100 hours a week telling people my healthcare story and how I wanted healthcare reform to happen in this country. And then it did.

Yeah, I remember the halcyon days of 2008, that Barack Obama victory night. Uh, I'm a bit older than you, but it was still heady, very, very heady. We thought that great things were going to happen, and some good things did happen. Probably not enough. No, not enough. Not enough, as it turns out. So, uh, you wound up, uh, as a fundraising consultant to candidates, and I thoroughly enjoyed your accounts of badgering candidates into effective call time because I hated call time too. And someone like you would be necessary really. I think you are cutting through the bullshit approach being like, look, ask for the money, make the hard ask, do this, do that. So helpful, I gotta say. And not that it's enjoyable, it's just necessary because it would be productive. So you cut your teeth On various campaigns and then wound up one of the key fundraising folks for the progressive movement through one of the name-brand organizations. And I found your accounts familiar. I do know some of the people, not all of them, but I know—

I figured you would.

Yeah, yeah, I figure, right? We're fellow travelers that way. Also a former Democrat, by the way. We can also talk about the fun of Leaving the Democratic Party while living in a blue enclave, which you live in Northern California. So it's a deeply personal decision leaving the tribe. And, you know, you end up with a certain amount of blowback or backlash that I will say does get better. But if you give— Yeah, no, I mean, it's— people are funny. So credit to you for doing what you believe to be the right thing, particularly because you spent how many years helping Democrats succeed?

I think close to a decade, I would say, all in all. But it was off and on since 2008. You know, I worked other jobs in between campaigns and in college. So, but in the final— my final 5 years of my career was exclusively in progressive politics. So I worked for a fundraising firm that helped elect Jasmine Crockett. I worked for her. I worked for Abdul El-Sayed. They also were behind Ilhan Omar, Cori Bush, and a lot of other people. And I remember when you were running for mayor, Andrew, a lot of people in that ecosystem were not happy with you. It was— it's been interesting. It was interesting reading your book and kind of like seeing you talk a little bit about that experience and then comparing it to the progressive reaction. Yeah, go ahead.

Well, you know, it's fun to be able to compare notes. I mean, there is a lot of tribalism baked in, but can you give folks a of why you became disillusioned with the Democratic theory of change? Shall we say Democratic Party theory of change?

Yeah, for sure. So it started, I think, with the establishment. I briefly worked for Hillary Clinton, also for Obama, and then also worked for some establishment candidates in the tri-state area and a few smaller candidates in Kansas City too. But it was right after Trump's election in 2016. when I moved to New York. And I wanted to get reactivated by Democratic politics. I had kind of taken some time off during school because I had to work as a waitress throughout most of it. And I went to school on Pell Grants and loans. And I started working for this establishment candidate who I actually don't name in the book. She's the only person I don't name. And I started feeling disillusioned through that experience just because of sort of the snobbery I experienced, Especially amongst like the donors and the lack of vision perhaps on behalf of the candidates that I was working for. They kind of just seemed to be anti-Trump but not really standing for anything else, even back then. And just the lack of understanding that they seemed to have about the economic realities of many people's lives. I described one experience of working with a candidate who didn't understand why people would even be— why would they even find something like universal healthcare to be appealing, right? And saying flippant things like, well, we just can't give it all away. And, you know, and so I kind of left the establishment wing of the party and then started moving into the progressive wing. And I ended up moving back to Kansas, and I found a labor lawyer there who was endorsed by both AOC and Bernie Sanders. And I was actually with both of them the first day they ever met, which was in Kansas, ironically, the home of the populist movement in the United States. And I thought I found my home in the Democratic Party at that point in time. I think back then the progressives seemed to be more about getting money out of politics, although they still talk about those issues. I think they kind of lost their way along the way, though. Unions, taking on Wall Street, breaking up corporate monopolies, advocating for universal healthcare, and most importantly, leading with a class-based message. And I— so I was really resonated with all of that. And then as I kind of made my way further into the progressive movement, I saw their priorities shift a lot. I saw their policies shift and the way that they talked to voters and really even tried to win voters change. And I think what ultimately really was the catalyst for my break was this obsession that I saw them have with things like identity politics and luxury beliefs and culture issues that I saw disenfranchise and alienate a lot of people in my family. That's another piece of my story. I come from a family where many of them used to vote loyally for Democrats, and since 2016, I've seen them shift and vote for Donald Trump. And so it was kind of these repeated frustrations with both wings of the party that Ultimately, you know, I— the DNC in 2024, I ended up leaving early. And a day before Kamala Harris spoke, I knew she wouldn't win. And I knew that the Democrats were headed for calamity. And I just couldn't take it anymore. And I ended up leaving the party at that point. And so it was kind of a culmination of all these things. Fall is a vibe. So what's yours? Do you go wild or get a little nostalgic? Do you like to cozy up indoors or kick it outdoors? Whatever you fall for, get shoes that get you. We've got the trends. You bring the vibes.

DSW.

Let us surprise you. Yeah.

So let's unpack that a little bit because you referenced the fact that Missouri was a swing state, which I do remember. I'm going to put Missouri and Ohio in the same bucket where—

I agree.

There was even a saying, so goes Ohio, so goes America. I mean, that's not a thing anymore. And I am friendly with, I want to say, the last Democrat to win statewide in Missouri, Jason Kander. Who?

No, no, he did not win statewide. So it was actually Nicole Galloway in 2020. Oh, wow.

Look at that. Someone, someone came after Jason Cantor. Exciting.

Not even that long ago. And Jay Nixon and Claire McCaskill before that. Yeah.

So check it out. Missouri and Ohio are Midwestern, predominantly white states where the Dems used to be neck and neck, like, you know, sort of very, very purplish states. And then now, uh, Democrats are decidedly the minority party in both of those states. Uh, I'm gonna throw Iowa in this bucket too, which is, uh, more agricultural than industrial, but, uh, Iowa also purple.

Right.

Barack Obama won it. Um, now tho— those 3 states started to move away from the Democrats, and there were 2 responses one could have. One is like, okay, why do you guys not like us anymore? Let's figure this out. Let's figure out what policies might help these industrial or agricultural environments, or the response they did have, which was, hey, you guys are kind of racist because most of you are white. We're going to trade you in for the diversifying states of Georgia and Arizona. And then our dream, which you cite in your book, Texas, like we're not going to try and solve the problems of these industrial towns. We don't really have an answer anyway. We were kind of responsible for some of the policies that turned the traditional union blue-collar voters against us. And instead of really meaningfully examining that, we're just going to write you all off. And as someone who, let's say in my case, I've been to Iowa 25 times, I've also been to Ohio dozens of times and Missouri/Kansas City maybe half a dozen times because in a past life I ran an organization that was helping some of these communities try to grow. So I have some sense of them, but let's just use Iowa as an example. I mean, Iowa used to be the front of the line for the Democratic Party and all of the Democratic candidates visited it dozens of times. And now they're just like, ah, you're not important anymore. We, we don't care about you. And as someone who spent a lot of time there, it's like, well, that seems a little bit bizarre.

Mm-hmm.

And now interestingly, a guy named Rob Sand might become governor of Iowa and he's running on a, like, I don't like the parties either kind of message. Which, you know, I mean, one, it happens to be genuine in Rob's case. Like, he is that guy. But also it's a smart way to run in one of these states. So, so you're from a personal family background where your family got alienated by the Democratic Party and there hasn't been a meaningful effort to examine that alienation.

Yeah, I agree. I think, you know, the first wave of that alienation really does go back to the NAFTA years. You know, there were some people that did switch over then. I had family members that lost their jobs at Lee Jeans Factory in St. Joseph, Missouri, because of NAFTA directly. I had other family members that had to sell their businesses because they could no longer compete with businesses in other countries after the tariffs were lowered to zero in the wake of NAFTA. And at that point, they swore off the Democratic Party forever. I get a lot of pushback for bringing this up because people are like, Well, it was bipartisan. Republicans would have done the same thing, and I absolutely agree, and I'm not giving them a pass. But I think the difference is that Bill Clinton betrayed his base by doing that, whereas I don't think George H.W. Bush would have been betraying his base at all. You know, back then, this political realignment hadn't happened yet. Republicans were still very much the party of more suburban voters, more college-educated voters, more white-collar voters, the— the party of big business, right? And so I think that that was the first wave. And then I think later, you know, what really alienated my family, you know, was— and I think that this also had to do with the 2016 election outcome especially— but was that Donald Trump then brought light to that in 2016 and actually talked about it and gave those people a voice again on the campaign trail when he ran and promised to renegotiate some of those bad trade deals. And I think that really appealed to them. I also think the issue of immigration has been huge. A lot of people, Democrats know this to be true when I talk to them about it in private, Andrew. But a lot of union workers, especially blue-collar union workers, have been very alienated by some of the open border policies. For lack of a better term, that's what I'm going to call it. Sure. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, the economic migrants. That's reality. And so they viewed that as like the biggest scab operation of all time, basically. You know, there were— I have people in my family that work in construction unions that have lost out on work to undocumented labor forces. And that's just like, that's just the reality. And I think that it's basic economics that when you bring in a surplus of people, especially in key industries, you know, unskilled labor industries like construction work, Right? I mean, it can create hostilities and anger, especially in smaller communities like in the Midwest, where they haven't reoriented their entire economies around undocumented labor, plus losing all the jobs in those areas, all the, you know, good-paying manufacturing jobs, or many of them, not all of them, but many of them. And then those people there are left to compete with the jobs that are left. And I think that that creates problems. And then the last wave has really happened over the last 5 to 10 years. And I think that that has been the Democrats' kind of like obsession with identity politics. That's a big turnoff to normies. You know, I talk about in my book this concept known as race-class narrative. I would be curious as to if you ever came across any of this when you were running for office. But it's like an actual messaging framework that is pushed a lot of times by donors and consultants that the general public doesn't really even know about. But it, you know, It kind of encourages politicians to racialize economic issues. And I think that if you're not included in that group, it can be a turnoff and it can make you feel like the Democrats are saying that your issues, your personal struggles do not matter as much to them. And then I think there's been some common sense things like pronouns and trans athletes competing in girls' sports. And those issues that Democrats just— some of them are contending with at this point. And we just saw a video with James Talarico a few days ago kind of like reversing his position. And then the crime and, you know, the public safety issues as well, you know, that have kind of like arisen over the last 10 years from the Democratic Party and the defunding of the police prerogatives and like all of those things have really just further created this wedge, I think, between the Democrats and their former base. And one of the arguments that I make in my book is that, you know, I think that Democrats, when they talk about the working class, are not necessarily including white people in that equation. I am including every demographic in that equation.

Sure.

I believe that working-class people of all races have more in common with each other culturally and economically than they do with a lot of these progressive consultants that hail from places like Bushwick or Washington, D.C., that are completely out of touch with them. And so my argument is that if you find the message that can win Ohio or Missouri, you'll eventually find the message that can help you win Texas too.

You know, Evan, you're making a terrible mistake, which is imagining that the point is to win. Hello listeners, you like money, I like money, let's help everyone save some money. So I started Noble Mobile, the first cell phone plan that pays you to use it less, a data dividend. That's right, it's for real. Go to noblemobile.com/yang and find out how you can get bonus cash just for signing up, get months for free, the whole shebang. It's Awesome. Go to noblemobile.com/yang to find out more. I want to present a couple of phases in what you're describing. So check it out. Bernie Sanders runs in 2016, and most people forget That, that was the Hillary cycle and running against her was political suicide. And Bernie Sanders was not the household name he is today.

Right.

But he ran and just lit a fire. And by the way, I saw a Bernie speech during that primary and said every word of what he's saying is right. And I will now donate to him because I can't not donate if, like, you know, a guy's actually, like, calling bullshit on all of the nonsense. And then the DNC sabotaged him. Now, he's always been making an economically populist and generally race-neutral case. I think. Now that morphed somewhat in what I'm going to call the next phase, which was now, and it's laughingly called Woke 1.0.

I don't even know what that means.

I'm like, oh, you know.

No, I know what it means, but I don't know. I know what the— I don't really see a difference, I guess, is what I'm like. Are we in 2.0 yet, or is that coming?

Like, what is— Let's talk about it anyway. I mean, here's my perception. So check it out. AOC was like, Woke 1.0. It was crazy. And then it's like, ha, laugh. Meanwhile, a bunch of people's careers were destroyed. And like, you, you were on the inside too, where you saw that, you know, like white men have to apologize for anything or were running scared from other clients or, um, or operatives. And then in your case, you also were like, hey, I, I too am somehow supposed to be, uh, ultra privileged as a straight white woman, even though I came from a working class background. And like, to, to call me privileged would be a real stretch given that, uh, you know, I'm first generation to complete college, had a healthy My mom and grandma were living in a mobile home park when I worked in progressive politics. I mean, calling you privileged is stupid nonsense. I mean, but in the identity framework, it's like, oh, you have it good. And then there are these other people that don't, regardless of what their actual socioeconomic background was. So Woke 1 was this identity, and also defund the police is thrown into Woke 1. And now even progressive candidates are looking at it being like, yo, Canceling Thanksgiving, stupid. Defunding police, stupid. Haha, we all just got caught up in a social media wave, even though, again, we destroyed lives and careers during that time. Woke 2. Now, to the extent I'm going to describe woke 2, I think woke 2, and you reference this a little bit in your book, so there is some economics thrown in there still. It's like billionaires shouldn't exist would be a reasonable shorthand. But then there's also this Israel-Palestine fault line where there are elements of woke too. It's tough because it's interesting. You talk about how progressives didn't like me in 2021. By the way, I've always been consistently surprised because when I was running in 2020, I thought I was like, even Bernie's not going to go here, whereas I'm just like, everyone should just start getting money. And progressives weren't into me in many cases. And for a while I was confused. I was like, oh, that's weird.

I was too, actually. I didn't get it either, to be honest with you. I really didn't.

But then both of us figured it out, which is that the problem is that I am kind of a can-do positive Asian dude. And I'm an unfortunate vessel for the message because, like, I don't have this anti-success vibe.

Yes.

Like, yeah, I'm actually cool with successful people as long as they, you know, want to fix things. Like, I don't think that, you know, so, and plus, like, you don't think that billionaires shouldn't exist? You know, I think that billionaires do exist is what I do. That's actually what I think. My mom would agree with you, by the way.

I had this conversation with with her all the time. You know, she's really struggling financially. She is. She like thinks that billionaires existing is a good— like, I don't think that that rhetoric resonates with work— like true working-class people the way that the left thinks it does. Like, she wants them to pay their fair share too, but she doesn't want them to not exist. Like, yeah, yeah, same. It's good if they are successful. It's good for everybody. So it's kind of an interesting dichotomy.

Yeah.

So, so I think the reason why I wasn't a fit is that I, I didn't have a zero-sum mentality, and I also didn't have this identity-based construction and narrative. I am clearly Asian, but my Asianness didn't come up that often. I mean, it came up very often in the minds of certain folks we're describing. So there's this woke 2.0 phase that's going on right now. And I drew a conclusion. You've drawn the same conclusion that we've come out at from different angles. And I'm fascinated to unpack this.

Yeah.

So, most people looking at me over the last number of years would be like, okay, Andrew, if you want to make some change, then clearly the move is to try and usurp the Democratic Party, yank its agenda toward this economically populist problem-solving movement. And that is the obvious answer. And there are these other people who are now undertaking that mission. And that they're going to succeed and that is where the energy should be. And I looked at it and I was like, I actually don't believe that or agree with that. I think that the Democratic Party is structurally unpopular. It is not going to be able to build any kind of sustainable governing majority and legislate this. It doesn't genuinely want to solve these problems. It doesn't care, which is one of your things. And there is like an institutional class that is going to, you know, kneecap Bernie Sanders and elevate Hillary Clinton, suppress any primary for Joe Biden. And you and I both voted for a guy named Dean Phillips in the 2024—

Yeah.

Dem primary because he was the only one who raised his hand. He was like, hey guys, this is stupid. And he lost his career as a result. And I was standing next to Dean Phillips in New Hampshire as this was happening. And I was aghast at how ridiculously insular the Democratic Party was in the face of all facts, all evidence. It didn't matter. I mean, even as a guy who was like, look, the Democratic Party is not going to actually do it. I'm going to start a whole new thing, the Forward Party, and we're going to back these independent candidates in places like Idaho and South Dakota and appeal to white working-class folks who don't think the Republican Party's got it going on. Even I was Like shocked at how dysfunctional the Democratic Party was in '24. So I'm just not like, not a believer in the Democratic theory of change. I think that a lot of folks who are getting funneled into the progressive movement are doing it for— and I don't like, you know, I try not to be negative in the sense that like a lot of them, like, I agree with a lot of the policy goals. I happen to agree with the need for universal healthcare. I agree with trying to like balance the economy. It's just, I don't believe that.

Yeah.

You guys have a path. You know, and then people will like throw that in my face and be like, oh, like, look at this candidate here, look at this candidate there. And I'm just like, well, you know, I crunched the numbers and you guys are deeply unpopular in 30 states. And like, even if you were to manage to seize a legislative majority for like an instant, like you'd give it back in 2 years. And, you know, and like, and I don't actually think you're trying to do it. So I'm going to assume that you actually still have a lot of the same goals And so there are, you know, in my mind, there are 2 real rational paths and avenues. Number one is this: we're going to convert the Democratic Party into this other thing that's going to solve all the things. And I was like, no, no, the Democratic Party doesn't want that, actually. And then my path is like, we're actually going to try and create like a multi-party system out of this mess and force our leaders to rationalize and engage in some kind of constructive policy in order to, uh, you know, like stay in power. That, like, that, that's— now, now people look at me and be like, hey, that's a lot of work, requires a lot of structural change. And I'm like, yeah, I still think it's a much more likely path to succeed than the I'm going to convert the Democratic Party into this, like, you know, thing that everyone loves and can solve the problems. I'm leaving out the third one, which is the Republican Party is going to solve the problems, because I just don't believe that. Like, those guys have, in my mind, really left the yard and become cult of personality and self-dealer-a-thon and just people patting their own wallets. So that's my take on it, is we need a political realignment. So first, is it the case that you still have some of the same policy inclinations that you've had?

Yeah.

It is.

Not on everything. There are a few issues where I've truly changed my mind. And I guess I— maybe I'll start with those. I think on immigration, I have truly changed my point of view. I used to assume that everyone that was against mass illegal immigration was racist. That's really what I thought, working inside the progressive movement. And I think confronting my own disappointments and disillusionment with the Democratic Party has given me more of an open mind, and I've listened more to my family members and more to people that I know back home who I know aren't racist and were very big ardent supporters of Barack Obama and ultimately broke with the Democratic Party on issues like immigration. So I think that is— and I actually give Democrats advice in my book for how they could talk about the issue of immigration in a way that's different than the GOP but is still— would be able to to appeal to people in my family and talk about it in more of a populist way. I am, I think, an economic populist way. So I think immigration. I also think that there's some issues that I just never really paid that much attention to before, like the pronouns issue or the message—

Is that even an issue? My gosh. But continue. I mean, it is.

It is. I mean, okay, it is for— I actually think it is, especially— and this is why I would've said the same thing 5 years ago. to you. But I think, like, becoming a mom, especially in, like, more of a bluer area, you know, I see it all the time in children's libraries and in their schools. And I just want more autonomy over what I— over what my child learns. And I'm not against him learning about other types of people. And I think that trans people should have dignity and, you know, all of that. But I just think that, like, as a parent, I think it's pushed a little bit too much onto kids. And that's like a big problem. I don't like it. I really don't. And so— and the homelessness issue and stuff like that. And so— and the crime issues. And so, you know, I have had a little bit of a perspective shift. But yes, there are a lot of the core economic goals, I'm still with the progressives on those issues, like universal healthcare. I'm not sure if it's exactly Medicare for All, but I think some sort of public option, I think we desperately need in this country. I still believe that corporate monopolies have too much power, too much control. I follow Matt Stoller's work a lot. I agree with him on a lot of those issues. I think that protecting unions— I'm from a union family. I'll never turn my back on unions. I think that they're vital and important and needed. And so there's a lot of those issues, the more economic arguments that the Democrats make that I can never fully get on board with the Republican Party. As how they currently stand, right? And so that's why I didn't become a Republican. I became an independent after I left the Democratic Party. And since the 2024 election, I have voted for both Republicans and Democrats. And I'm thinking about the same thing all the time. I agree with you that I have given up on reforming the Democratic Party. Maybe there's a small percentage somewhere in my soul, Andrew, if I'm being completely honest, maybe 5% where I think maybe there's a chance that they could change just based on the conversations that I've had with people since my book has come out. And a lot of the Democrats actually that have reached out to me and have told me that they agree with me and that they want the party to move more in the direction that I outline in my book. I just— there are people that really do feel that way. But there's also a huge part of me that's just like, no, the institution is too great. The consultants are too entrenched. You know, they've gone in this direction for so long, I don't really know how they can truly be reformed. And then there's another little piece of me that's like, well, maybe the Republican Party could eventually come around on issues like healthcare and issues like unions, especially if their voters are actually more inclined to believe that way. the way that you and I do on those issues than their current elected officials do, right? Than the current people that are actually in the Republican Party.

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I think it's fantastic that you launched forward. It's very commendable. I am a little bit skeptical in general on a viable third party, especially at the national level. I think it's a lot easier thing to do at the local level because there's just, as you know, there's just not like the financial infrastructure. There's not the organizational infrastructure. There's not the endorsement structure behind some sort of third party. Hardly anything is bipartisan. Everything gets flipped into either left or right, you know what I mean? And so it just seems, even though that is actually the path that I would like forward.

Same, same.

Yeah.

But it's like I just feel sort of blackpilled on it because I'm like, I don't know, especially coming from the inside.

Yeah, yeah. Check it out. Check it out. So like if you were to just approximate it, you have 2 multibillion-dollar incumbents that have like tons of structural advantages in the form of the 2 parties. And then you have an upstart insurgent effort like Forward, and you look at it and be like, oh, how are you going to make headway? And as a serial entrepreneur, I'm looking at it being like, ooh, what are the opportunities? What can we do? And we have a huge wind at our backs. I'll just go through very quickly. This is going to be me trying to pitch you on it, Evan, because we could really use you. You're now this badass pillar of independent political thought, and if I can convince you, then it would be a huge boon. to the movement.

Okay.

So this is going to be me trying to work on you a little bit. Check it out. Check it out. Todd Achilles and Brian Bangs are independent Senate candidates in Idaho and South Dakota, in environments where the Democrats are totally noncompetitive, to the point where the Democrats just dropped out of the races entirely. So now it's, it's Todd Achilles one-on-one versus an 83-year-old Republican incumbent named Jim Risch that no one likes. And like, even Idahoans don't know who he is. And Brian Bangs against the 72-year-old Republican incumbent, Mike Rounds. And like, people, you know, like, if you can imagine folks in South Dakota, Idaho, or just like your family where they're like, hey, not loving what I'm getting from this Democratic Party, but certainly not loving what's emanating from DC, and my life's getting more difficult and more unaffordable. And then if a military veteran who's an independent actually hits their radar and is like, hey, like, you know, would you give me a shot? I think your family would be like, ooh, I'm interested.

Definitely. Yeah.

Yes.

They would.

And each of those states is a massive opportunity because they're rural, their populations like, you know, between 900,000 and, you know, 1.5 million, but they have 2 Senate votes. And the Republican Party hasn't had a genuine race there ever, as far as I can tell. And so if you can steal a march on them, then you could put some real points on the board. Uh, now 2/3 of young people don't think either political party is working. 50% of Americans say they're independents.

Mm-hmm.

Forward now has 80 elected officials, uh, you know, like hundreds of thousands of members, committees in 41 states, uh, ballot access in 7. We're growing all the time. As soon as next year, you could have 1 or 2 or 3 independent senators as early as January of next year. In addition to, to your point, all of the local races that independents are winning all the time because you have 500,000 local races and you know this better than just about anyone, the vast majority of these races are totally uncontested or uncompetitive.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, so that, so that's my pitch that if you have 82 elected officials now in '26 and then 380 in '28 and then 1,000, uh, and you're taking shots on goal. Eventually you're going to break through in part because the two parties, you know, and I want to ask you about like the experience you're having from the Democratic Party. So you're now up to 5% optimism that they can get their acts together and like transform themselves. What was it before your book came out?

It was less. It was a lot less, actually. It was— well, maybe in the wake of the 2024 election, it was more. Maybe it was 20%. And then I think that that window of opportunity kind of closed. And once Trump took office, I think Democrats became less interested in talking about their previous issues and more focused on just, you know, what he was doing, right, since he's become president. And so I think I had a higher degree of optimism then. I think what's renewed it a little bit has been the number, you know, I've had— I'm not gonna say who, but I've had, you know, Democratic politicians, multiple, reach out to me. A couple of them are in Congress, a few of them are elected officials on the state level, told me that they read the book and that it deeply resonated with them, and that they agree with me on most of what I said. And I've had operatives within the party that are reading it. One guy who owns a Democratic consulting firm said that he was going to make it required reading for everyone that worked for him. I've had people that have I've just— I've almost gotten a message a day from people that are just deeply resonating with what I said and telling me that they were— one person said that they breathed the biggest sigh of relief that they've breathed in years after they finished my book. They said they read it in one night because they knew that all of this stuff wasn't just in their head, that it was really happening. And so when I hear messages like that, I'm like, okay, there are people in the Democratic Party who do want things to change, who do also see the issues. You know, when you're inside of it, I don't know if you had this experience, but I felt very, like, stifled. Like, I couldn't even— I was paranoid about even talking to some of my coworkers or people that I knew really well for years who worked in Democratic politics about how I was actually feeling, which is probably why it was so surprising to maybe some people that used to know me. you know, after the DNC that I did what I did. I felt like I could only talk to, like, my husband or, you know, people in my family about how I was feeling because, you know, you're just the— it's kind of a monoculture in that way. I think that it's probably the same on the Republican side, too. I don't really know, but— or similar. There's probably similar issues, you know, with people not wanting to criticize Donald Trump or whatever, you know, on the Republican side. But I just felt like I couldn't really tell people how I felt. And since I've left, you know, I'm free. I can tell people how I really feel. And I've just had so many people write to me and tell me that they feel the same way and that they also haven't been talking to people. So I think, you know, hopefully with candidates like Tallulah Rico and Amy Acton, you know, running slightly different campaigns and moderating some of these issues, it will open up a dialogue for— for other Democrats. So yeah, I do hold some hope in my heart. At the same time, there's the more realistic side of me that agrees with you, that is like, yeah, it's just too entrenched. These issues are too entrenched. They don't really care about winning back people like my family. I heard that so many times from donors, from consultants. You know, they wrote them off forever, even though I think that that's like the stupidest thing that they could ever think, to be honest with you.

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Yeah, no, it's a failure of their responsibility. You know, like I thought the Democrats failed the American people colossally by not having a primary in 2024. And like, and if you raised your hand and said that, then somehow you were excommunicated. It was bizarre. Absolutely bizarre. I mean, my The joke is that the Democrats just changed their party name to the Selectors because they don't give a shit about things like votes or like— I mean, and they pretend they're like, democracy is on the line. One of the most damning things is that people who had democracy as their number one issue split 50-50 between Trump and Kamala because a lot of folks thought that the Democrats were actually more anti-democratic in their way, in part because of some of the thought enforcement That you're talking about. I do want to dig in more to your experience. By the way, what you wrote about, it's 100% true. It's very much happening. I mean, you're getting the message all the time. I saw versions of it all the time, and it's very dark and unfortunate. You've done something very principled by raising your hand and being like, look, guys, I'm just going to tell it like it is. Uh, my experience, you're very fortunate in that you didn't need another job from this crew. Uh, and it's one of the, you know, because like if you needed to make a living in this domain, then you, uh, you know, you do get blackballed. Uh, and I work with multiple people who left the Republican Party when Trump took over, and they were told you're never going to work again in politics. And now they're working at Forward trying to make things happen. So to the extent there is a home for refugees of the parties, it tends to be us. You know, I'm very happy to say. How much of the compliance and silence do you think is tied up in the fact that people need to make a living?

Well, it depends on how many people actually really buy into these things or not, right? And I'm not entirely sure. I think that there's true believers in the Democratic Party that do, that would disagree with everything that I wrote in the book and would say horrible things about my character, right? Or about, you know— and so I think there's people that believe it. Of the people that don't believe it, I would say like 99% is just people that are terrified of losing their job or losing their health insurance or not being able to get clients. anymore. I mean, that's one of the more dark comedy things that I write about in the book is that I would be working with a lot of white men and men in general, not always white, that would get on these Zoom calls or these conference calls with me and hear, like, these denigrating things said about them, or these, you know, these comments that were just so rude, actually. If you were— like, nobody would ever talk about a woman this way, you know, in these spaces. And they shouldn't, right? Nobody should be talked about this way. And then they'd hop off the Zoom call, and I'd look at them, and I'd be like, are you okay? Like, are you— that was rough. That was not fun to be witness to, you know? Are you all right? I don't feel that way, just so you know. And then they would just kind of like have to keep going and then hop on another Zoom call and then sort of like echo the same point points and say similar things as to the people that they were just hearing say denigrating things. And it was like this cycle that was perpetuated due to fear of losing clients or fear of losing contacts or fear of losing donors. Or not always, and I talk a lot, I worked in fundraising, and so I actually saw a lot of this come from progressive donors too, which I think there's especially a fear of challenging these progressive donors because if you do, or like like people that often create a job for themselves inside of Democratic politics, but also donate to Democratic politics and organizations. That is actually very common. And they, you know, standing up to them, risking losing funding, risking being blackballed from other organizations or campaigns, I would say that 99% of the time, that is why people are not speaking out against these things inside of Democratic politics. That's what I experienced.

Yeah, that's one reason why your book is so enjoyable is it's kind of like a post-market critique. It's like, hey, I don't expect to ever work for you guys again. Well, I'm lucky.

I say that. I'm like, I'm lucky. I think through marriage, marrying my husband, I found a lot of stability that I never really had before in my whole life, actually. And his job gives me good health insurance. And yeah, I'm incredibly— and somebody else asked me on another podcast, like, if you never met him and you really, you know, and you needed healthcare and you needed a paycheck, like, would you have written this book? And like, the honest answer is no. Like, it would not have happened.

Well, I'm very glad that you guys did find each other and that you're a mom now and that life's good and that you wrote the book because I thought it was important. And true. It has the benefit of being true.

I tried to be fair too. I didn't want to write a burn book. Like, I wanted to actually be fair to people and say nice things about them too, because there are a lot of good people.

I thought it was very fair. I thought it was very lucid and balanced and rational. And you kind of had to be because, you know, you didn't want to just seem like an axe grinder or axe thrower. So you had the same experience I did-ish. Yours is probably, you know, it's different. Everyone's experience is different. But I— and you read my books, you know, But I leave the Democratic Party and then I get all these attacks where I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, what the heck's going on? I literally like headlined a fundraiser for you guys, you know, like a couple of months ago. And like, now I'm, you know, the devil. So, so, so that was weird. Weird. Not going to say. And then it was unpleasant. But then, you know, you kind of get through it and then over time, People try and— or the good people sort of grapple with what you're saying and what you're doing. And then you have different people who are jazzed about it. And by the way, in my case too, and I think this is probably true for you too, Fox wanted to have me on all the time because it's like, hey, Yang, you left the Democrats. Those guys are terrible. Talk about why you left.

Yeah.

And you're like, okay, I'm here and I'm willing to be here, but also I don't think you guys have your shit together. I don't think you're solving these problems. But because of the two-sided nature of the coin, if you leave one side of the coin, the other side wants to have you on all the time.

Yeah, I'm very transparent with Republicans though, in general. I'm like, I didn't become a Republican. There's issues that I have disagreements with Republicans about, and I'm going to call balls and strikes. I just try to, you know, have people talk to me for segments and interviews where it makes sense, you know what I mean? And that's kind of how I've handled it, you know. And after, you know, during the Medicaid cuts thing, you know, I went on television and I spoke out against it.

Sure, they were terrible.

And then in the wake of the Iran War, I mean, I'm not happy about the Iran War. And then I've spoken out about that as well. And so, You know, you just have to— you just have to— I see the appeal for a lot of people to want to just— I under— because it is an easier path. You know, what you and I both did is actually harder. I think it's easier for people when they leave either party to just go to the other side because that is the binary options that we have, you know. But I'm fine with being uncomfortable and with taking heat from both sides from time to time if that's what what I need to do to just maintain integrity and to be honest with people about how I feel.

Well, Evan, I certainly hope you wind up helping forge this middle lane so people can get beyond this, what I see as very destructive, like, two-sided dynamic where neither side actually needs to solve the problems that your mom or your family or your friends back in Kansas or Missouri deal with every day. Uh, certainly that, that's why I got into public life is to try and make their lives better, uh, and everyone's life better. I mean, you know, I think there's a political, uh, opportunity, uh, there because most Americans are with us, uh, in, in my opinion. Please do check out Evan's really, really honest and personal book, Nothing Left: Confessions of a Democratic Operative. Evan, where can people keep up with you? Former. Yeah. How can people keep up with you? I think you're doing some more writing, which you should definitely keep doing.

Thank you. Yeah, Substack. I have a Substack. I'm also launching a podcast called Bad Company with Evan Barker. Well, I will be interviewing people from both sides of the political aisle, people that are sometimes the wrong people but can be the most fun to talk to.

Well, you should definitely put independents there too.

It's not going to be an explicit political show. Yes, an independent, people from both sides of the aisle. But yeah, I'm going to do politics, but culture stuff too, just because I get tired of talking about politics all the time. I can't do it all the time.

No, no, I get it. Because one of the things you say in your book is it attracts some very unhappy people. Evan, really thrilled that you've shared this account of Your, really your life and career, and I think the country's going to be much better for it.

Thank you. Thank you so much, Andrew.

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