Meet The Woman Who Built A $3B Beauty Brand from $0 | Anastasia Soare

Hi, thanks for listening to the Tony Robbins Podcast. This is just a quick note about this episode in case you'd rather watch and see the video of this conversation, and that's found at youtube.com/tonyrobbinslive. You'd like to listen? You're in the right place. Okay, here's Tony.

Our next founder saw an opportunity hiding in plain sight that no one else saw.

When I started, nobody had eyebrow products. I started a category. A category in the beauty industry that didn't exist.

She escaped communist Romania in 1989.

People were living from day to day, going to bed empty stomach.

So you arrive in Los Angeles and they don't allow you to even bring a single dollar. How old's your baby?

He's 3 years old.

Told your boss you want to just do eyebrows. What did your boss say?

No, no, of course they didn't agree. I never gave up. He was an immigrant as well. Somebody give them a chance. Give me a chance. She spoke zero English.

And started that business at 40.

Every 9 seconds around the world, we sell one product.

9 seconds.

9 seconds.

And she's grown into a $3 billion brand.

If I was able to do it without speaking the language, without having money, without knowing anyone, anyone could do it.

Ladies and gentlemen, help me welcome the one and only Anastasia. You are a force of nature, and I'm so grateful because the number one things that you hear from people that are not where they want to be is, "I'm too old," or, "I don't know where to begin," or, "I have all these limitations." And this is the one country on Earth where you're proof. I'm proof in a little way, but I didn't know— I knew English. I had a huge advantage there alone, right? You didn't even know the language. So I want to take people back so they understand maybe a little of your background. So many kids today think communism is a great idea. I was telling you backstage, I went to the USSR, Soviet Union, when I was 24. And I traveled from literally one coast to the other, from Moscow to Siberia and back.

Wow, that's courageous.

Well, I don't know if it's courageous, but I saw that communism had nothing to do with equality. Because the Russians— I was there with a group of scientists, and the Russians with us were living like the highest class, caviar. And we'd stop in every town, and it was always this gray same building, and people are wrapped around like a quarter a quarter of a mile waiting for a quart of milk and like a half a loaf of bread in the freezing cold. And it was that way in every single city. And I, I came back and I became somebody who was interested in free enterprise. I, I never was— that wasn't my focus till then. But I want to tell people, what was it like growing up in communist Romania? What was it like for your parents? What, what was taken from them? What could they not do? What were the limitations? Before we even talk about your journey here, I think people should understand that.

So my grandparents immigrated to Romania in 1939.

They built amazing business.

They had a big land with farms, with beautiful homes. They build themselves everything.

Yes.

And after '51, 1951, when the communists started and promised to everyone, oh, everybody's going to be equal, everybody is going to have a great life. Slowly they start taking from people that had homes or farms or businesses. You are not allowed to have your own business. And they start sharing and the government used to manage everything and own everything. Everybody worked for the government. And the leaders of the Communist Party, they lived a very lavish life. Yes. And everybody else starts suffering. Everything you— we could buy was on the black market. You couldn't, like you said, you went in a supermarket and it was empty. The shelves were empty and people couldn't even buy milk or bread. You had to— or For a chicken, you had to sit at probably midnight and probably the next day you will be lucky enough to have one. In line. In line, yes. So it was very difficult. Even if, let's say, my mother was able to get on the black market something, was hard for me to see my neighbors, my friends, or colleagues not being able to have meat for months. It was very difficult. I couldn't support, I couldn't take that and seeing how people were living from day to day without maybe going to bed empty stomach and they will turn off the electricity at 6 o'clock. And in the winter, was very cold winter, you had to go to bed like you went skiing. So very difficult. I left because I couldn't take that anymore.

And while you were there though, your mother was a rebel. She was. Your mother, you learned some interesting things from your mother. Tell us a little bit, tell everyone a little bit about your mother. She had an illegal business on the side.

So she had an illegal, she was a seamstress 'cause they were not, the kids from wealthy family, they were not allowed to go to school. So she learned how to sew and she became a seamstress. And at the beginning, probably they didn't, communist regime didn't have enough rules to stop those small entrepreneurs, but later in the '70s, you were not able to do it. But my mom figured out that wives of high-ranking officers or people in the Communist Party, they needed to be dressed. So she chose those clients and everybody was kind of— it was an understanding that she didn't need to be bothered so she could keep her business.

And she'd take like the top fashion that was happening?

Only.

—and she'd make it for them. Yes. And then you noticed something as a child. What did you notice about these women when they came in and your mom dressed them? Oh my God.

They— I felt like my mother was the whisper. She will make them look so beautiful. They were so happy. She was a customer-driven person. She wanted her customer to look beautiful. She used to make them clothes and she would bring the hairstylist to give them makeovers. And she really loved what she did. And my mother worked endless hours. And I, as a kid, I used to ask her, "Mom, you work so hard." It's like, "I love what I do. When I see these women being so happy, they kind of, I charge my battery and this is how we keep going." Yeah.

It still drives you today, doesn't it?

And I became my mother because I used to ask her like, "I can't believe you do this. It's too much. So then I came here and I became my mother. And the same question my daughter used to ask me when I worked. And now she's in pursuit of that too. And now she became, yes.

Tell me, you know, and also by the way, you weren't even allowed, not like, you weren't allowed to be a part of fashion there either, right? Like kids wanna wear bell bottoms and things like that in those days and—

Oh, I had a pair of bell bottoms and I used eyeshadow from a guy that used to restore churches. 'Cause we didn't have anything, no creams, no makeup, no clothes. So everything was black market. And I felt like I was, I don't know, a pair of jeans was like something that nobody in town had. That's amazing. And now, yeah, I think, yes, I look back and I think, wow, everything that we had was very precious to us.

And you, while you were there, you studied in school. Tell us about what you studied.

So when I was in Romania, the good part about the communist regime at that time was the school was very good. I had an incredible teacher. And my art teacher always said, if you want to draw a portrait and you want to change an emotion, you change the eyebrow shape. And we learned the Leonardo da Vinci theory that he used in all his art. And I came to United States and, I bought a disposable camera. We didn't have in Romania disposable camera. And I realized that my aesthetician used to tweeze my eyebrow pencil thin and round, and I looked surprised. And I thought, wow, I look surprised because of my eyebrows. And I remember my art teacher. I start going to the library and I thought, I need to use the golden ratio to figure out the best shape for my face. Yes. And from there, the clients will come and will say, wow, you look different. Something is different about you. And I start sharing with them the eyebrow shaping and— It took off. Yes.

I want to take you back just a step. You were married and your husband defected at one point. He was a captain of a ship.

Yes. I convinced him to defect the ship in Italy. He went to American Embassy, ask for political asylum, and I told him, "You need to pick only Los Angeles. We need to go to Hollywood," because we had 3 bootleg tape. We had the VCR, and we watch Beverly Hills Cop, okay? We watch Julia Roberts on Pretty Woman, and I was dreaming of that. Store, the stores in Rodeo Drive. Yes, two in a row. And The Color Purple. Oh yes, Oprah. And it's funny story about that movie that we watch, which I couldn't understand a word, but was the feeling and everything. And I came to United States and we had one TV, very small TV, because we couldn't afford more. And I was flipping the channels and the only show that I wanted to see was Oprah Winfrey Show.

Even though you didn't understand English? I couldn't understand.

My husband used to say, you don't understand one word. I don't know why you want to watch this woman. So Oprah in the movie, in The Color Purple, she looked totally different. Right. And I was surprised. I didn't recognize her, but her voice was very familiar to me. And that's why I was attracted and I was watching her her show. And I made a deal with my husband, you could watch every show, every sports, every Laker game. I want this slot. It's only mine. And we used to fight about that.

Now you're fighting over a deal for us.

No, no, no. And I used to joke and I said, you know, I need to understand how she asks questions because when I'm going to be on her show, I need to know exactly how to answer. And of course, he was like, yeah, sure. That's pretty awesome. Isn't that awesome?

Give her a hand for that. That's incredible. Visualizing at that level, right?

So why You catch what you dream for. That's right. Yes.

That was a good dream. Very good. So he got here 2 and a half years before you. And you did not get treated well at home once he decided to defect, right?

What happened to you? Well, I used to be called at the police station almost every week. And they put pressure on me to divorce and to not come to United States. Yes. Of course, I had to play the, no, I'm married. In my culture, you cannot divorce. I'm Macedonian, so I have to go. I have to follow my husband. But every week I will be there and they will try to intimidate me. And it was very tough because it was almost like a joke. You knew what time you have to show up. You never knew how many months you will be there. Hold. Wow. So my mother, again, she had some clients and she will make some phone calls like, make sure my daughter is going to come home that night. Wow.

And this went on for 2 and a half years? Yes. And how did you finally get to the United States?

Well, I think that Romania was— Ceaușescu at that time wanted the most favorite nation, the clause. And I think the American government put pressure on him to let the families that they were— be unified, yeah. To unify. And this is how I got lucky and I got my passport. 4 months before the revolution. I always think what was happening if the revolution— I will be still there. Wow. Isn't that interesting how life— life has—

God has a plan larger than ourselves.

But God had a plan for me. Yeah.

Yes. So you arrive in Los Angeles and they don't allow you to even bring a single dollar with you, correct? And you got a baby. How old's your baby?

Just 3 years old. And I couldn't have $1 or I said, at least give me a coin because I learned that you need to make a phone call with 25 cents. And they said, "No, we'll put you in jail if you found at the border $1 in your pocket." And I arrived in the airport in LA and I was sweating thinking, "I hope his car is not gonna break down. I hope he still be there when we get there." Yes. I don't speak the language. I don't have any money. I don't know anyone. I'm with a kid in my, I hold a kid, what will happen? But thank God he was there waiting for us. It was so—

So you were 31 when you arrived here in 1989, right? Yes. And so you went to work. Why did you go to work in a place doing facials?

Well, when I was in Romania, my husband called me and he said, well, there are a lot of doctors, engineer, Romanian, here in LA and they are all in the beauty industry. It's kind of, maybe you should go to beauty school because you don't speak the language, will be easier for you to get this job. And he was right because I went to take some English classes at night, but the only job I could get without speaking very well English was beauty industry.

Wow. And so you went to work at a place in Beverly Hills with an aesthetician?

Yes. I work in a salon as an aesthetician, facial and body body waxing. And I realized that eyebrows are so important. The landlord didn't believe that financially will be good because how much you could charge, $10, when a facial was $60 at that time. Right. So it was too much time to— and financially didn't make sense for them. But I really believed in eyebrows and this whole technique became such a passion for. And I really believe that this could be a business and I loved it.

And, uh, you've told your boss you want to just do eyebrows. What did your boss say?

No, no, of course they didn't agree. Yes.

So you saved $5,000 if I read correctly.

I saved $5,000.

And then you went to go get a little room in Beverly Hills and they wouldn't give it to you because they thought you can't make enough money. Yes. How did you convince them to give you that room? Because they told you no.

Well, yes, they told me no, but I, look, You have to. When you are an immigrant, when you come in this country, you see opportunities and you are not willing to give up. I never gave up. Every opportunity or anything that I put my mind into, I always, and most of the time I will be rejected, but I will try to find a way to study. I will always ask, "Why you don't want to let me do that?" And then I will spin that. I will find another way to convince the person. How did you convince him to give you the rental space?

Because he was afraid you'll never make rent here in Beverly Hills, right?

He was an immigrant as well, so I used that. Like, I'm sure your family or somebody in your family was an immigrant. Somebody give them a chance. Give me a chance, and in 6 months, if I cannot pay it, I could leave. So he opened it up.

Give her a hand for that. That's spectacular. It's fantastic. So amazing. So Tell me, you know, when you start to enter into this process and you start doing these eyebrows, tell me how you made the distinction. You learned about the golden ratio. Yes. But what was the day where you made the connection between your eyebrows and the facial impact of using the golden ratio on a person's face?

So I start studying, I went to the library and I study so much the face that I, my eye became really familiar. And you know, the human eye is encoded to recognize the perfect balance and proportion within the face. So I spent hours and hours doing eyebrows, making mistakes. I wanted to understand very well mathematically how you apply the golden ratio for eyebrows. And I used to use eyeshadow with aloe vera and some Vaseline to fill in the perfect shape. And the clients, of course, they start telling me like, well, we need that potion that you have because after we take our shower, our eyebrow is not the same. So I realize I need to have products. Right. Okay, and what else as an entrepreneur, I realize I have two hands and I used to work endless hours. 10, 12 hours. It was a certain amount. I started doing eyebrow, one, I mean, a pair of eyebrows in 40 minutes, then 10 minutes, then 5 minutes. But more than that, how many? I used to do 100 clients a day, but more than 100 clients, I cannot do it. So I realized I need to create a product line. Yes. That I, in my mind, was I want to be on the beach and still make money selling the products in the stores. This is what I thought, but you work And more, the bigger the business gets, as you all know, the more work you have to put in.

That's right. Unless you can become a business owner and products are product. That's a really important thing. I think I saw you asked, you did an interview with someone and they were asking you a question and they said they had a service business and they said, how can I grow my business? And your first response is products. Yes. The same reason, because products can have unlimited scalability. You only have so much scalability on a service.

That's right. Yeah. Yes, yes, unless you grow the service business, which is again difficult because you need the quality of the service, the people. And in a salon business, it's quite difficult because to maintain that quality. Same level of quality. Same level, yes. Where with the products, it's a lot easier.

So at 40, you start your first business. I know. 40 years old. 40. And you start getting some of the— tell us some of the clients that are coming in to see you at this day.

Oh my God. In my salon in Beverly Hills, which is still there, 438 North Bedford, from Oprah Winfrey walking in to— no, Michelle— to Michelle Obama, of course. Yes. She was a client. To Penélope Cruz, to Sharon Stone, to Kim Kardashian, Kendall Jenner. I mean, we have everybody. It was such a beautiful life.

I've heard only rave about you. And Kim said she doesn't want to go anywhere that's important without you doing her eyebrows. She adores you. And she's known for her face and her eyebrows. Her eyebrows.

It's just so powerful. One of the most requested eyebrows. Hailey Bieber. I mean— How about men? Victoria. Absolutely. I used to shape men that they were in film because everybody has a different look, a different persona in the movie. And Billy Bob Thornton, that as you know, changes his entire look look in every single scene or every movie. I used to stay with him and study exactly how we should do his eyebrows, how he should color his hair, because he needed a different character in each movie. But David Beckham, um, Justin Bieber—

Mrs.

Beckham or Mr. Beckham? Both. That's awesome. I think men always should have groomed eyebrows. I think it's very important. And I worked in Hollywood for many, many years, and I businessmen and actors that you don't make a man look like a woman. A woman's eyebrow should be shaped fully different, arch. A man eyebrow should be groomed, should be very manly. And I like that very much.

And by the way, beforehand she said to me, let me do your eyebrows. So you see the difference? Yes, look at that. I said to her, if you can do something with this mug, you really are a genius. So it's fascinating that you men as well. I didn't even consider that as a possibility, but I, I can see the difference too, even with the men. Yes, yes. It's fantastic. Tell me though, so you built the business at 43 is when you first started doing products? Yes. Did they take off right away? Tell me a little bit about how that went. How'd you get distribution?

I used to work in the salon and having such an incredible amount of celebrity clientele that validated my work and word of mouth. 'Cause at that time, there were magazines, TV, and word of mouth. That was it. So my clients really believed in my work. The celebrity clients used to validate my work. And Nordstrom's approached me. They wanted to sell the products in the store. In the store. And at that time in 2000, eyebrow wasn't something, I mean, women didn't know why should I use eyebrow, brow powder in my eyebrow. Was kind of still at the beginning. And I convinced them to create brow studios within the Nordstroms and hire esthetician. I will train the esthetician and every weekend I will travel around the country to do personal appearance. Now you got to hear this.

This will tell you who you really are as an entrepreneur, Anastasia. She went for 12 years and did this, correct? Yes. 12 years, every weekend she insisted that they have an esthetician there so it would be done properly. And for 12 years you went to Nordstrom every weekend.

Every weekend. I will work Tuesday to Saturday. After work Saturday, I will take my carry-on my daughter with me, and we'll travel Sunday, we'll go to Chicago, let's say, and then do an event there. And Monday I will go to another city. And every weekend, this is what we did. I used to wax, shape the eyebrow, and my daughter used to sell the product, teaching the clients how to use it. Every day, every weekend. And thank God, in 2012, my daughter came on a— of course she was complaining, I am 18 I'm 16, you know how kids are. It's like, Mom, is this it? I know what you're going to tell me. Okay, yes.

I'm going to interrupt only because I want people to know something first. Yes. Your daughter, she's a major part of the growth of your business. We're going to talk about that in a second. But before she made a difference in your business, because I think all of you out there have kids, they tend to get pampered. Tell me what happened when your daughter was working with you. She's going to work for you.

What happened? So I felt guilty, and I'm sure there are so many moms out there that they feel guilty. Guilty because they work too much and they don't have too much time to spend with their kids. And I said, if you want money, like for gas or any, like you have to work. So work part-time in the salon. That way I could watch her and kind of she could see how much I work. Yes. And she was working and she, of course, at night she will go with her friends to the clubs and she was late the next morning. And I said, look, I'm going to give you— this is the second warning. If you are late again, I'm going to fire you. I don't think she believed me. She was late again and I fired her. She was very surprised. She went and she worked for an insurance company. And after a month she came back.

Heard she was miserable though.

She was miserable. She didn't have enough money to pay her rent. So she wanted to get some money. And I said, absolutely not. I came in this country. I didn't speak the language. I had the kid and I figure out. You speak the language. You don't have a kid. You should figure out. But I want— she was so good in what she was doing. Yes. I wanted her back, but I wanted her to beg me to come back. So she did. I let her wait for like 2, 3 hours. After 2 hours, she begged me to come back and we made new rules. You are my daughter when you are outside the salon. When we work together, you are an employee and I'm gonna be harder on you than all the employees because I could set an example. So since then, was completely different.

So I wanna talk about the growth of that, but I do wanna point one thing out. You know, one of the first youngest female billionaires in the world is Sara Blakely who created Spanx. And we've interviewed her as well. And she went to Nordstrom's just like you. And she flew all over the state just like you and literally went, they wouldn't allow her to sell things, but she went to every department. She'd do demonstrations in the morning. She'd give out free product. She did that also. But I think she only did it for 2 years. You did it for 12 years. She's a billionaire. You're a billionaire. There's a little common pattern that I'm starting to see there.

You have to hustle. That's right. It's no free road here. It's not free ride.

People think that Oprah made her, Oprah made you. You're already successful.

Yes, yes. But, and I am forever grateful for everything that Oprah and all my other celebrity and clients did. But I worked for it. That's right.

No, I get it.

I worked and I still work so much today. I still do eyebrows. I still, I have clients that they come to my house. I do eyebrows. I, every single batch of every single product for eyebrows, I have to approve I don't move it because it's very important for me, the quality. Yes. This is how you separate from the rest. When I started, nobody had eyebrow products. I started a category in the beauty industry that didn't exist. Of course.

Give her a hand for that. That's pretty awesome, isn't it?

Yes. Thank you, thank you. And then of course other companies, other lines, they start getting inspired and copying. Okay, that's normal. It's good. Competition is good because you continue always.

You're showing your game.

It gives you, yeah, exactly. But what differentiates Anastasia about all the others is because I know eyebrows more than and better than anyone. And I, every single batch I have to approve. And why you have? If I have to, by the way, this is our bestseller, Brow Wiz. Every 9 seconds around the world we sell one product. 9 seconds. 9 seconds. Yes. Yeah, give a hand for that.

That's incredible.

Yes. So what is happening, you have raw materials when you have a product that it's from the earth. So sometimes we buy the raw material from, let's say, a yellow from Spain and one time from Brazil. The Brazil yellow could be green undertone and the Brazil, the yellow from Spain could be orange undertone. So red undertone, warm and cool undertone. Overtone. So when you do, the manufacturer will do the same formula, the color is gonna be off. Wow. So constantly I have, before they will start, they will mix in a huge container the raw materials. And then I have to approve it and I will say, hey, I need a little more yellow, I need more red, I need more black. So they need to give me exactly what I want. So it's very important, the quality is so important.

Do you work this hard 'cause you have to or 'cause you love it?

Oh, I love it. I love, I still work like I can't pay my rent. This is what next month, it is, I love it. I love the game. I love to constantly create new products. Innovation is very important for me. I started this organically. I created products that I knew my clients needed. Every eyebrow is different. Every skin tone is different. It's just, I love what I do. I do. I'm so passionate and I wake up every morning and I have a purpose. It's the best thing, the best gift that anyone could have.

I've seen so many people, very successful, sell their business and make a billion, two, or $800 million or, you know, whatever the number may be. Yes. And they think it's going to light up their life. And I see them. I have a good friend that sold a business not long ago, $1.2 million cash. That was his portion of it, right? Yes. And he was so excited at the point he sold it. I said, "Buddy," I said, "That business tapped a lot of your needs. Everybody needs certainty and you had certainty about that. Everybody needs variety. Business is unlimited variety, different skin tones, different things. Everyone wants to feel significant. In your business, you own it's significant. Everybody wants to feel connected and loved and you love your clients. Everybody needs to grow. Your business makes you grow or your business doesn't grow." I said, "And you're contributing to people. You're meeting all 6 of your needs. Now you got this chunk of money. What's gonna happen?" And I can see it over and over again. And then within 3 months, 6 max, they're calling me and say, "Hey, you wanna go, you wanna—" I'm like, "Well, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. I'm already doing these things, my work." "Man, you're always working." I said, "But I don't have to, I want to." And within 3 to 6 months, they're almost wanting to get back in the game. 'Cause for most people, their business meets so many of their needs. And then, but they're not doing it, they just got the money. People think the money's gonna do it. The money doesn't do it. The money's just a nice thing to recognize the level of growth you've had.

Measure your success. That's right. But it's not going to bring you happiness. That's right.

You're so spot on. Give her a hand. So spot on. So spot on. Now, now let's acknowledge your daughter Claudia because she made a nice contribution to business. I think it was in 2012, if I remember.

Tell me what happened. 2012. She was not happy that every weekend we had to travel. And she came to me and said, Mom, it's this app that I think we need to have a presence. There called Instagram, 2012. So I said, yeah, sure, let's see what's going to happen. We posted, actually was this product, Browiz, that we posted before and after eyebrow pictures. And of course, we were reading every single comment. And was one comment that said, oh, I wish I could buy this product. I said, send me your address and I will ship you one Browiz. With. And she said, "Oh no, you can't 'cause I live in a small village in India." And that was for me everything. Like I will never be able to, at that time in 2012, to reach a customer in India. I thought like, this is our ticket. We didn't have money like the big companies like a L'Oréal or Estée Lauder to spend so much in advertising and marketing. That was our vehicle, Instagram. And from 2012 to 2016, we had EMV that not even Estée Lauder and L'Oréal could have. The company grew so much. It was viral. And then we started the makeup line. She came to me, Claudia, like, "Mom, we need to start the makeup right now." Like, "Okay, that will be your baby." baby.

You must be so proud of her.

Oh my God. You know what is funny? When she was 18, I used to call her like, "It's 8:30 in the morning. You are late." And she was like asleep. Of course, she was a teenager. Now it's 10 o'clock at night, I call her like, "You have to go home, okay?

You work too long hours." The Cat's in the Cradle, that song.

That is so good. Yes.

That's great. How beautiful. Yes. I look forward to meeting her someday, but she sounds like An incredible force of nature and a reflection of all her own skills, but also obviously the grounding that she has.

I think my biggest achievement is that I was able to give my daughter a purpose. Yes. You know, yes.

That's beautiful.

The company that we built together, it's amazing. But to be able to give her this, the skills and the power and the desire to every day to hustle, I love that.

I love it. Yeah, that's maybe the most accomplishment anyone can have. Yes. Give her a hand for that. That's gorgeous, isn't it? Yes. Really beautiful. Really beautiful. Yeah. So in 2018, you were 61 years old. I can't believe you're— you never say a woman's age, but I have to with you because you look 20 years younger than that. She's 68 years old, ladies and gentlemen. Give it up for— this is unbelievable. You are gorgeous.

Thank you, Dave. But you're gorgeous inside, which—

that's what my wife too, gorgeous inside and outside. That's what really matters. Matters. Thank you, but, but the point is, at 61, yes, you decided to sell a minority interest in your business and you discovered your value was $3 billion. Tell me something, all that you went through from coming here with no language, no money, your baby, going through all those things to where you are, what was that like for you? What did you feel? What'd you experience when, when did you realize it was that big?

No, because I, I own 100% of the company. And I didn't have a CFO. Me and my niece were handling the money, writing the checks, signing all the checks, doing all the deals, and very slim team. And I never thought that I need to check and find out how much the company was worth. But we kind of maxed out on distribution in United States, and I wanted to expand internationally. Well, I didn't have the power and I realized to expand internationally, I couldn't be making products, dealing with the business domestically and opening the business internationally. So I realize I need a partner.

Yes. And not just capital, but with the intelligence of distribution.

The capital wasn't just— No, no, no.

You had the capital.

My EBITDA was was off the chart. My margins were 51%.

Let's have a hand for that one, ladies and gentlemen.

Of course. Oh my gosh. That could not be achieved on these days with the tariffs and everything else. I know. But it was amazing to know that I was able to do that.

Yes. And they only got a minority interest, you sold them part.

And we got a minority because it was too big the valuation for any strategic to come in and buy the company and that had an operation experience. And we got a hedge fund and they came on board. And— TPG, right? TPG. Yes. That's fantastic.

Well, what did it feel like for you?

I think it was kind of scary at the beginning because I thought like, whoa, this is— Crazy. And then I thought, wow, this is unbelievable. This is the measurement of the success. This is coming in this country and building something that I was passionate about and I worked so hard. I felt like Oprah always says, you are the best American success story because that prove Only in this country you could do what I was able to do. Nowhere on planet Earth you could do this, I think.

It's unfortunate that most young people don't know that because most young people are receiving benefits and it's all they've ever known. They don't have the contrast of what you've been through. They think America is a terrible place and never been anywhere else. And then they think communism is going to be it, that it's going to just mean free stuff. You and I know very differently if you've ever been to a communist country. So the contrast is so amazing. Amazing. And that's why I wanted an interview, because I think you destroy all the limiting beliefs. If someone listens to your story and they know it's true, it takes away all the excuses somebody would have. So, by the way, another challenge for people is like you created a category and as you said, then people start copying you. And so now you have competition and you've had the markets change. Of course. How have you had to adapt or change as the markets have changed and competitors have shown up? And what is the future of, you know, Anastasia Beverly Hills, what would you say about that?

It's very interesting that you ask this question because COVID hit and it was terrible. Yes. All the stores were closed. Before COVID we start selling on Amazon. Even so, we didn't want to sell on Amazon, but there were a lot of companies that were selling fake makeup and was destroying our reputation. So I went to Amazon and I said, we need to solve this problem. And of course they said, we'll get it, but you have to sell your own products. So we start selling and I thought I will sell only some eyebrow products, limited. I could control how much we sell. COVID came, of course Amazon was the only store that you could sell. Yeah. So we start selling everything there, and it was quite a change. I mean, our business was murdered during COVID Even when the stores open, as you remember, you couldn't go in the Sephora, let's say, or Ulta and touch the makeup because you couldn't touch the tester. Yeah, it was— we all know how difficult business was during COVID Yes. And then we started, but it was an era where people didn't want to use makeup. It was that clean look makeup.

Plus they were in their pajamas at home all day. Correct. Yes. They weren't going to work anymore. Exactly.

And you had to adapt. We start doing tutorial. We start doing— I did an app where you could learn how to do your own eyebrows, how to try the different colors, different shapes. So we tried to adapt to the environment that was created. Yes. And in two— so TPG came in and after 5 years, the deal was they will exit. Of course, our EBITDA, it drops so much that— and we had the loan, we had to kind of reboot, readjust the structure of the loan. And of course, now it's a new chapter that I put some more money of my own and to reboost and to rearrange the deal.

So to adapt to what happened during COVID for any business was incredibly difficult, but I can only imagine for yours. So what do you see— oh, go ahead.

But to answer your question, You have to be adaptable. Thank God right now the new year started with 2016 again. People start wanting to use color again like we used to have in 2016. So I think it's gonna be a new day for makeup again, for beauty.

People are going out again.

They like to go out again. I think we all need. I think we human need to interact with others. We need to, like one of the lady that you interview, I was listening and she said, He said women that wear makeup, they make 30% more money. That's right. Yes, because this is how we perceive the other people. And not only how we perceive, but I feel like if I am doing my hair, I put my makeup, I feel invincible. If I will show up here with no makeup, that didn't even brush my hair, I don't know if I will be as confident I am right now. I am confident anyway, but that, Extra.

But it steps you up a little bit.

But exactly. Yeah.

So it's also, it's like putting on war paint to go to war a little bit, I would imagine, right? Absolutely. It's like, I'm getting ready to go make it happen, right?

I'm gonna go there and fight like exactly how you have them. I see the 300. In my company, this is how we do it. Like 300, you get your sword and every day you go to work. This is how. Give it up for her. Yes. It's no way. That my mentality and the way I keep telling my people, the way you do, you go there and you fight. You don't take no as an answer and you will get whatever you need to get to because this is how it is. It's not easy. Business is not easy. Life is not easy. I, many times people are asking me, are you stressed? I'm like, no, I'm not stressed. I open my computer every morning. And as a leader and as a CEO of a company, I know that I have to solve problems. I don't need to stress. I need to figure out how I fix problems.

That's right. That's my job. Leaders have problems for breakfast. Yes. That's what you do, right?

So yes, yes, problems. I used to have problems when I lived in Romania. This is not a problem. This is a great time to have problems.

You get better quality problems.

Exactly. Yes. So, yes.

I tell people the biggest problem people have is they think they're not supposed to have any. Yes. Exactly. Because problems are a part of life. They make us grow. That's life. Of course. It's all your attitude towards the problem.

And if I do a mistake, it's great. I'm going to learn from the mistake and I'm going to do better next time. Try to— and I tell my team, I'm okay if you do a mistake, but try not to make it twice the same mistake. Yes, yes, yes. You know, and learn from that. This is how we grow.

No. Yes, we got a Spartan here, ladies. We've got a gladiator here, ladies and gentlemen.

Yes, yes, yes. I have to go with Joe. And, uh, yes.

Well, one more question, and then I'm going to ask if we'll bring Joe out and we'll take some questions from the group together.

Oh, I would love to.

But I'd love to know, you know, you've— I want everybody to pick up your book. It's called Raising Brows. It's just come out. It's fantastic. It's my story of building a billion-dollar beauty empire. Spectacular.

Thank you. I sign your book right now.

Oh, thank you so much.

And, um, what I want to say is that I wrote this I wrote this book just to inspire other people. If I was able to do it without speaking the language, without having money, without knowing anyone, anyone could do it. It's just you need to believe in yourself. That's right. That's it. And act on those things. And act. Oh, yeah. Don't sit and— Massive action, right? Massive. That's so incredible.

Well, let's bring you up. But first of all, let's first give a gigantic hand for the one and only Anastasia. Thank you. Well, we certainly have the masculine and feminine represented with power on both sides here. Peak masculine, peak feminine with all their power and strength together. Um, I want to start out real fast, just ask you a couple questions, and maybe the audience, if you have some questions, like to be able to ask him— remember the burpee rule here, so ask a question, get to the But, you know, you both have been through incredibly difficult times in your businesses, and we all will probably in the future at different times. I'm curious, what is the most important belief you think a person has to have to make it through? Both— all three of us went through the COVID situation where it literally shut down our business. I lost $100 million in 6 months in my business, and I didn't shut it down. I just said, we've got to find a way. And by the end of the year, we did get it back even, at least. At least. What do you think is the most important belief that an entrepreneur has to have to make it through those tough times? Whether it be in the very beginning, there's tough times, right? Just like the stages of development of a human being. You know, when you're a young business, you don't have enough capital and it's tight. When you're a mature business, there are different choices, there's new competition. Like, tell me, and we'll start with you if we could, Joe, what do you think is the most important belief or two that have kept you going during those times, or you think people need to be able to keep going? When it looks like there is no compelling future? Because we all need a compelling future. We can deal with difficult today if we got a compelling tomorrow, but sometimes it feels like you lost your view of tomorrow.

I think it's exactly that word. I think it is belief. Yes. I think you've gotta believe. I was just telling your crew outside, I've got a younger boy who in the last year has exploded on the wrestling scene. And I'm curious, like, what happened? He didn't learn any new moves. And one day he just said, I just decided I don't want to lose anymore. He believed. And so when I was going through hell, the pandemic or the startup or the 15-year, whatever, I just believed it was going to— I remember my bookkeeper walked in one day and said, what the hell are we doing? You're running out of money. There's something here. It's going to work. Yes. It's like an insanity almost.

Well, think about it, everyone. What is a belief? It's a feeling of absolute certainty. That's what a belief is. It's not a hope. It's not I wanna. It's like it will be. I will find the way or I'll make the way, right? I will take action.

I'm gonna do it. Yes.

What would you say is your core belief? And what's been one of the toughest times in your career?

I think COVID. COVID, yeah. Yes, was very difficult. And it was before. I mean, I started a company and a business that nobody was before. I had no idea of the business. I didn't know how to write a check. Do you understand? I mean, sometimes I look back and I'm thinking, wow, what drove me? It was that desire to win. I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna learn. And I wasn't afraid to ask. I wasn't afraid to ask my clients, I don't know this, do you know, can you help me? I wasn't afraid. I showed that I'm vulnerable and I want to learn. Yes. And I did. I learned. And I had that desire in me, that fire. Not everybody had that fire. Yes. That I'm going to figure out and I'm going to win. There's no way I will not. I'm so competitive and it's no way I'm not going to win.

What are you going to say, Joe?

Well, she has a huge advantage over you and I. She's Eastern European. Yes. You can't compete with her. Yeah.

They had to fight to have some food, right? Exactly. Exactly. You build a muscle when you were there, right? You have to. She had her race when she was there and coming here. Exactly. That's amazing. Yes. What has been, if you look back on your career, has there been a mentor or two that taught you one or two principles in business that maybe have stood out for you or were very helpful for you?

I've had so many. We talked about one earlier, the head of the Banana Organized Crime Family, but my customers have been mentors. My partners around the world. When we expanded around the world, especially to Eastern Europe, we set standards and said, you must follow our rules. But then very quickly we realized, wait, yeah, no, they're doing it better than us. Yeah, we're going to take some tips from them. So, but you've got to, you've got to have an ego that's willing to accept that other people might know better.

Yeah. Yeah. And be the learning machine she was talking about.

I, I think ego is one thing. That kind of kills you. Yes. If you have an ego, you are always afraid to fail.

Because that's, by the way, what ego is. When people hear the word ego, I always try to tell them it means fear. Fear. If you see somebody who's got very egotistical and exaggerating their significance, it's because they feel insecure inside. Correct. And fear stops us from taking action. You're so spot on. So how did you get beyond ego in the terms of willingness to make mistakes, willing to do whatever it takes? How did you do that? How did you do that?

I think I grew up in Romania. I watched my mother trying everything and anything. You pivot. You had to survive every day. You have to find a way. You couldn't have an ego. Oh, I am so-and-so and I need to win this.

No, nobody cares. Yeah. That's what I was going to say was payroll.

Yeah. Plus, you've got payroll. There's no ego. No ego. And the fear, I think the fear and of course ego brings that. That was my problem with, I mean, the problem my husband had. He had this huge ego that he couldn't do something below the standard that he had in mind. Yes. And this killed him.

Yes. And it also, he was not supportive of what you're doing when you wanna start this business.

No, he didn't believe that I couldn't, like, there are American people born in this country and they don't own the business and you want to own and I said, Viktor, what do I have to lose? I don't have anything. I don't care. Yes. I will try. I don't want ever to feel like I never tried.

You know, that's an interesting point. I've seen, I don't know if you guys have seen this pattern. You see someone, they come from nothing, they bust their tail, they grow to a certain level, and now they're a level of success. And when they started, they had nothing to lose. And now here they are, they're very successful, but now They don't wanna make mistakes because they don't wanna lose. And you see them, they become really unhappy because the thing that makes us alive is putting ourselves on the line, right? It's growth. You can't grow without doing something that you're not certain about. You can't grow without facing something that's incredibly difficult. And then as they do that, it's like muscles get weaker from lack of use. And now they're unhappy. And I try to show them, you're unhappy because, brother or sister, you're not growing because you're playing it safe. You didn't play it safe. I think of things I did in the beginning My prayer, getting up and telling a general, "I'll cut the time in half of any training program you do and I'll increase the competency." And he said, "You're crazy." I said, "I'm expensive." We negotiated. But I want to get— and I told everybody, "I'm not going to get paid if I don't do this." Some people that were rooting against me, but that was part of my inspiration. I'm not going to give them that, right? I'm going to find— and I did. You find the way. When you burn the boats, you take the island. How did you burn the boats, both of you? What made you burn the boats that this is it? That's it.

I mean, I didn't know I was burning the boats. We were spending $500,000 a month very early on to compete against Tough Mudder that I didn't have. There's not too many months you can go before you start to say, "Hey, this is becoming irresponsible. I got a new family. We've got this farm up in Vermont." So the boats were— It was like smoldering and then it turned into a fire very quickly. And then you're fucked. You got to make it work. Now, what I was going to say was it doesn't just happen to an individual you just Right. It happens to Kodak, it happens to WorldCom, it happens to big organizations that start playing defense instead of what got them there.

Yeah, Kodak— I don't know if you guys all know this, but Kodak actually created the electronic cameras, digital cameras, but they thought, no, we're in the film development business, and they wouldn't do it. Yes, they went under. One of the most successful companies in history went under because they just weren't willing to adjust.

Yes, I think you have to pick You have to adjust. You have to be alert constantly. If you, it's like a Waze. If you see a dead end, you need to change. You need to move. Be alert, be, and ask questions. Ask, be around people that they could maybe sparkle something in you and not be afraid. I think when you said about your friend that got to a certain point, I think Fear kicked in. That's right. And he didn't want, oh, I have to keep up with the Jones. What this one is gonna say about me or like—

Yeah, that's the new thing today. Now people are worried about what people are gonna say about 'em on social media.

Yes, exactly.

It's even more than before for some people.

But I think we need to ignore. When you have a passion and you have a purpose, you need to ignore all the noise around you and you have to be like a bullet.

And it takes courage. But I try to tell people courage is not that you're not fear. I mean, fearless doesn't mean you have no fear. If you had no fear, you'd be dead, right? Yes. It means you fear less, but you fear less because you act. You know, the solution to fear is almost always action, right?

Yes.

Courage doesn't mean you're not afraid. It means you're afraid, but you do it anyway, right? Yes. Yeah. Let's take some questions from the audience. We have audience members that are just starting a business, haven't started yet. We have people, one business at $450 million, other around $250 million. 50, but like most businesses, some of them are trying to break that first million. Let's have some— who's got some questions here for our audience, for our two entrepreneurs? How about we go over here with Lindsay over here on Team 8, and here we've got Jenny here, McKinney, on Team 12. Give it up for Jenny! How are you? Where are you in the world?

I'm in Kelowna, British Columbia. Thank you so much.

Give it up for the Canadians!

This week has been life-changing. And to hear from both of you, Joe and Anastasia, it's been mind-blowing. And Anastasia, I have been a makeup artist for 30 years. Wow. And the impact that being in proximity to a woman and showing her how she can glorify herself and impact her own identity is so life-changing. And what I've heard from you with your resourcefulness, your resilience, your, extreme level of focus and vision, I have had a dream to create products that link the identity that a woman is wanting to generate and create and embody in herself with simple products. And one of the things that, um, I heard you say is that you started out in the very beginning with just your— you had a lean line and then built from there. And so I wanted to know what principle guided you in your product build beyond just what you thought the market wanted? Like, was it— were you filling what you thought the market needed, or was it the dream inside you that everybody needed it?

Well, everything started super authentic and super lean. My client will show up with over-tweezed eyebrows. She had oily skin. She had oily skin and curly hair. I had to create a products that will help her to create that perfect shape. So this is how I start creating eyebrow products, just to solve a problem. And I think that is, 'cause if you create a product that, I don't know, you dreamed of and you cannot sell it, you don't find a customer, then you are the only one that is gonna sit and look at that product. So always in my mind was I need to create a product that will solve a problem for my client and I could sell it.

And one of the biggest mistakes I think people make in business is they fall in love with their product or service. Yes, no. They don't fall in love with their client. Yes. If you fall in love with your client, that means you wanna do whatever it takes to meet their needs and you're obsessing all the time. How do I help them, right? Yes. I always say your ideal client, you want to know where they live. What I mean by where they live is think about everybody's life is really, it's a dance between what they desire most and what they fear most. That's where people live. If you want more of a life, you either have to fear less or desire more or some combination thereof. But once I know what you love, what you hate, what excites you, now I can start to solve a problem for you. But if I create a product that I love, which is what most entrepreneurs do, then they have a limited market. It's the people just like you. You got to think in terms in terms of not your own needs, but their needs. Now you might be a person that's benefited from your own product, right? Not gonna influence it. But when you make it all about yourself, rarely do those companies scale.

So not only I wanted to create the greatest product, but I needed to create education for the people that work for me and for my clients. So education is very important 'cause you need to show your customer how to use your product. Yes, this is how you use it. This is where you're at. Eyebrow should begin, you know. So education, it's hand in hand with the product that you want to make.

Give her a hand. Thank you so much, Jenny. Give her a hand. All right, let's bring another one. How ironic, the first person is a makeup artist. Yeah, that was random. Wonderful. Thank you so much. Oguzhan, am I pronouncing your name right?

Yes, when I talk with Tony, exactly how he called me every day.

Where are you in the world? I didn't hear. Where are you in the Where are you from in the world?

Irvine, Orange County, California. Oh, Irvine, California.

Give him a hand. Well, I ask because you both know we have people from 56 countries here. Yes, wonderful. So what is your question?

My question is growing company is not easy, but definitely harder than the growing company is the hiring process. If you don't make the right hiring, it definitely can mess up your company, which is what I had experienced before. And my question is, both of you, it's— you guys created amazing company, you know, something really miracle. But how was your hiring process, finding the right people?

So for us, when I look back, we were very lucky because we had no resources. I had to hire anybody willing to work for $2,000 $2,000 a month. That was the deal. That was a threshold and a sifting mechanism that got us a certain quality of person, which meant they had to love what we do, right? They could— I moved them to the farm. They got $2,000 a month. We hiked the mountain every day. They must love what we do, otherwise, they wouldn't be doing this. So, those first 12, 24, 36 people, they slept in the office. They woke up at 5:00 a.m. with us. They got in the cold river ever. Like, they were so on brand. We were Spartans, literally Spartans. So I think I was lucky, and probably a lot of entrepreneurs are lucky because they have to go through— they have no choice to go through that same process. Does that make sense?

Yeah. The way I hired at the beginning was, of course, I started with the esthetician. So not only they had to have their license, but I would go through, train them. I had to train them to do exactly my technique, my exactly how I wanted. They needed how to talk to the clients, what to do, how to shape their eyebrows, everything A to Z. I had to train every single esthetician. Then when I went to the corporate office, I was hiring young people because I didn't have enough money to pay them a lot of money. I started the I had to align me with an assistant, and then my daughter start helping me, so 3 people. And then you scale, you grow, and you hire people that will sell, are salespeople in the cosmetic industry. But slowly you will, you have to be kind of careful who you're going to hire because sometimes people, you will see many times I see a CV and like, oh, I grew this to $200 million. I grew that. Like, no, you cannot grow yourself. Yourself. You had the team that helped you to grow, or you lead that team. So most of the time you have to— I mean, there are some great people out there, but they will claim things that, yes, they are not in real life.

I've also found, just to add to it, that, you know, you've heard the phrase, it's not who you hire, it's who you fail to fire. Yes. And I'm a very loyal person. If I've made any mistakes in early decades of my business, it was not staying with somebody too long. Yes, I'm trying to help them because my nature is to help people. Yes. Yeah. Now I decide they need to be clients. If you're going to be on this team and you're going to play, you know, with the best of the best, I can't coddle you while my platinum player has to pick up for you, right? And so I think, um, you know, Jeff Bezos has a whole philosophy of, you know, hiring slowly and firing quickly. Yes. And I think honestly it sounded merciful— like, you know, not very merciful, but in business it's critical because you've got a family of people you care about. They're all busting their tail, whether it's Sparta or yours. That's one piece. The other thing I do is I look to see everybody when they're coming for an interview. It's like dating, right? They put on their best outfit, their best attitude, their best everything. The real test is when they live with you 24 hours a day, right? When they get into an environment of real work and you see who they really are. So oftentimes, two things I do is I'll ask the question, not can they do the job— if by the time I see somebody, they've been interviewed multiple people, so they can do the job. The second question is, will they do the job great long term? And that's tied to what are their goals. You know, I hired somebody years ago. I had a woman that was with me for 5 years as our personal assistant, and we traveled the earth. We'd go to, you know, 18 countries in a year. And I mean, you know, 18, 20-hour days without exaggeration, traveling time zones. And so I'm, you know, you care about this person, they're part of your family. Well, after 5 years, she fell in love with somebody else in my company and wanted to have a kid, wonderful. So we're still great friends. So I'm trying to hire a new person of that quality. And we went to the LA— because we're near Los Angeles— the LA Association of, of, uh, of Assistants, right? Executive Assistants. And we went through like 4 people like 5 months because they don't come there, I found out, to be an assistant. They come there because they want to be in Hollywood and they wanted my clients like yours, right? They wanted access to these writers, these directors, these producers, these actresses, and they would treat them great and everybody else like crap. And so it's like, you gotta know, do their goals align with the job? And then the third one is team fit. 'Cause you can have, how many of you have had somebody on your team, let's say he was great at what they did, let's say a great salesperson, negotiator, great at something, but they pissed everybody else off in the company and they constantly drag? How many have had this experience in your company, right? Oh, whoa. And so what I learned is, you know, you don't wanna let go of them 'cause they do such a good job, If they're not the right team fit, you got to get rid of them because there'll be a vacuum and you'll get the right person. But I think you're— you made a really good point. I'm glad you recognize it. Who you hire and who you fire is critical, and you're not going to know for sure until you put people through the trenches. And so sometimes we do that too. We'll go, okay, we're going to give you a 30-day trial. Are you going to step up and be that place? And then you get to see what they're really like under pressure. And then we pretty much do what you do. We also screen in advance, like I mentioned earlier in the week. Like let's say our salespeople, we say, here's the job working for world-class, make a difference this way, unlimited income, but don't apply unless you are world-class. And our standard, I got this from a partner of mine years ago, is it doesn't matter what they say, we reject them and hang up on them the first 3 times. So a person call in, I'm calling about that job, you know, in sales, and we go, it's world-class, we said don't call if you're not world-class, and we have them hang up. We do it on every Everybody. And why? Because you can train people, but you can't train people's nature. Like, this man's nature is to find the way. Her nature is to find the way. It's hunger. I look for hunger in somebody. And if that person calls back, that's a good sign. We let them go a little longer, you know. They go, "I'm not getting it." We hang up again. The person calls us back on the third time, and they go, "Oh, we must have been disconnected." Or they make a joke. That's the person we hire. And by the way, once we hire them, we train them the same way. We are brutal. Because the world's more brutal, right? And now we can train them. I think great people are found and then trained, not just trained. You gotta find someone with the right nature. And to me, if I had to pick one quality, it's hunger to learn and grow. All of us are still hungry. You look at the best entrepreneurs, people that you know. I look at some of the people I've spent my life and dear friends with, we're all hungry still. We don't have to be, we are. Hungry means to be more, to do more, to give more, to share more, more. Get somebody like that with some decent skills and they're going to be a great employee and they're going to maybe be a great partner with you someday. You never know. Is that helpful? What are you going to say?

I think that people that want to do more. Yes. This is what I look for. I mean, you don't need to be the best and you could learn, but I need to have— you could become the best if you have that hunger. Yes. Yes. You are totally right.

I agree 100%. I'd rather have that than the skills. Yeah, because you can teach the skills. That's right. But that person, that could be an Uber driver, a waitress, a waiter. Yeah, they have that energy. Energy would probably be the word. Hunger. The fire.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Is that helpful?

It was the best advice ever I would get. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Give him a hand, everybody. Let's do another one. Christina, can you hear us? She's Romanian.

Are you Romanian?

Yes. Wow, you're looking at it. Wait, you know by her last name?

Or yes, the last name.

Well, where are you in the world? Where are you in the world right now?

I'm in Amsterdam, the Netherlands.

The Netherlands. Give her a hand. Get in touch with the Dutch. Yeah, you have a question?

Well, first of all, Anastasia, you're such an inspiration. I mean, the two female legends coming out of Romania that everybody knows is Nadia Compeș and Anastasia Soray, of course.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Yeah, I have two questions for you. What's the one operational decision that you made that protected your business the most? You talked about raw materials. So you decided to partner or you decided to start from scratch with the raw materials. Would that was, do you think that was the decision that, uh, was the pivot decision for your business or which one was it that you think protected your business against everything? Oh, there are so many.

That's, that's so many. Yes. Uh, what are one or two though? Yes. But, uh, definitely choosing a manufacturer that it's high level, The way we work, we go to labs that they are the best in complexion, for instance. Like this, the pencils, the mechanical pencils are made in Korea. They are the best in that. Other pencils are made in Germany. They are the best company that make. So we manufacture everything with the best. We partner with the best because quality Quality for my brand, quality is everything. I cannot, I cannot bring a product on the market that is not superior.

That's beautiful.

Yes. And the second one, and this could be actually a question for both. I don't know if I'm allowed to ask that, but when, yeah, when, where, and how did you learn the numbers of your business? Because you talked about EBITDA and when did you find out that this was core to your business? Was it from the beginning? That came with that hunger that you needed to know your cash, your cash flow and how does it go? Or was it a learning curve?

It was a learning curve for me because I wasn't trained. I didn't go to school here, finance, to learn about EBITDA and like the balance sheet that in Romania we used to do and the basic, how much money you have to start, how much you spend and how much you are left with. And I used to have, by the way, in the beginning of my years to create cash flow for my business, because at the beginning I didn't make enough money. I used to renovate houses and flip houses and every penny that I, all the dollars that I will make, I will insert in the business. So I needed to find ways to create cash for my business to be able to maintain because nobody wanted to invest in eyebrow business. Business, you know.

So yeah, I would say a couple— going back to the first question too, I'd love to answer, which is for us, a key decision we made was we were going to hold the standard. This was going to be hard. Barbed wire crawls were going to be ridiculous. Rope climbs. Even though the customers, the investors, the board of directors, people Tony knows, were begging me to make it softer. Get rid of the name Death Race. Why are you making people sign a waiver that says you may die. By holding—

You've been right about that part.

By holding the standard, though, by holding the standard, we became differentiated. So that was number one. Number two, on learning the financial terms, we went out to investors. We had to learn on the fly, just like you did. Yes. And there's no better way to learn than when you're under pressure and your survival depends on it. And the third thing I'd like to comment on based on these few questions and what's going on is clearly I chose the wrong industry. I should be doing eyebrows, eyelashes, toenails. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing with barbed wire and fucking roadblocks.

You have to come. I will teach you how to do eyebrows.

Everybody wants to talk about eyebrows. Tony wants to get eyebrows.

But at the end of the day, at the beginning, you need to make sure you have money to pay salary for your employees. This is how it comes. You barely make money for you, but you have to make make sure you, excuse me, you pay your salary for your employees. Yes. And this is how you learn slowly.

I'll say for me too, I didn't know what, it was my mission, right? So I was just, I didn't know anything about finance at all, zero. And you learn through pain. You know, I remember my accountant saying to me, I said, how am I doing? He goes, oh, you're really profitable. I said, ah, that's great. And I got to the end of the year and there was no cash. And I didn't understand cash. Cash, you know, profit is the theory. Cash is what you're gonna run your business on. And so through pain, I had to learn. One of the reasons I brought Keith here, uh, by the way, I saw a gentleman whose comment was he's a CPA for 25 years and he said, I've never seen a more clear way to understand how to run your business. Because it's— accounting is a language, but really what you want is financial intelligence. You want to know what things mean so you can make better decisions. Yes. And when you don't understand accounting, running, and you find out afterwards by a basic, you know, accounting— there's nothing wrong with accountants, they're putting all things in the right place— but you find out afterwards. There's nothing you can do about it at that point. You want to know in time so you can make better decisions, and beforehand so you make better decisions. And I'm passionate about it because 3 times in my lifetime— I've got, you know, 121 companies now— I had companies early on that almost went bankrupt. And every time it's because I thought we were driving 50 miles an hour and we're going 120. 20, and I thought we had a full tank and we were on E. Yeah. And it was because the accounting did not give me that information in real time. So I am very passionate about learning this early on in your business because you'll make better decisions. And that's one of the reasons a lot of people don't go out of business 50% a year, 80% in 5 years, 96% in 10 years. They don't go out of business because they don't have a great product or service or not passionate, work hard. So very often they just don't know their numbers in time to make the kinds of changes that are necessary. And then when a COVID or something else happens, yes, man, if you don't know what you're doing, you're going under. So I really encourage you, Christina, on your journey, you know, really master this part. Or what I do now is get— I give people— I have a company that does it, but you don't use my company. You don't have to buy a CFO if you got a business and it does less than a million dollars a year. A CFO is $350 grand, $400 grand. But I created virtual CFOs because I I had that problem and I'm all over the world and I'm not the only one who does it now, other people do it too. So you can pay 1/100th the amount or 1/50th the amount and you get that person to coach you so you can make better decisions now while you're learning. 'Cause even when you're brilliant in that area, most of us focus on what we're good at. We're gonna create pain and transform people, right? We're gonna make them beautiful, but the numbers aren't really as important to us, but they have to be. So you need somebody else that's their entire obsession and they have the skill to show you the patterns. Remember we're talking about pattern recognition, pattern utilization, pattern creation. Hard to create new patterns when you don't even know what your pattern is currently creating. So I think I'm very passionate about a subject that normally is boring as hell and that I personally had no interest in because I had so much pain by not mastering it. So I hope you will.

I definitely learned my lesson the hard way. Okay. And, uh, was a revelation for me. After Keith, now I want to geek out into every number of my business.

And that makes me happy. That was worth the week alone. Give her a big hand. I just want to finish with two simple questions for the two of you. One is, if, um, how much do you think your success is based on your willingness to never give up? It sounds overly simplistic, but you're both incredibly successful in what you do. How much of it was relentlessness? I will not give never give up. How much of your success would you attribute to that?

Who's first? Absolutely. I think, I mean, I could go. From the beginning, it was not a way that I would give up. It's like, that's why I came here.

Yes. And I couldn't agree more. How about for you?

I think about any business, whether it was the fireworks, the swimming pool business, Wall Street, this business. I should have gave up. That's right. Because I didn't give up. Like any— if you looked at just the paper, Joe, you shouldn't be doing this. Doesn't work. It doesn't pencil. Yes, that's right. But I didn't give up. Yeah. Yeah.

And then on the opposite side, most people never even get started because they think they have to have a master plan. What do you think about that?

Oh, I never— I got so many times asked, like, what was your plan? Plan. I didn't have a plan. I needed to pay my rent at the beginning to survive. I needed then once I kind of start believing that eyebrow is my calling, I slowly every day was a journey that I will learn and every 2 years I will have a different plan. Kind of every 2 years, okay, I'm going to master. I want to be master of my craft. Craft. That was the most important thing. Then I wanted to create the best product. That was something else. I'm going to open the salon. That was another. So constantly I will do, but I didn't have a plan at the beginning. Yes. I never thought that in my wildest dream in 1989 when I came here that I'm going to be in the beauty business and I'm going to start a new category.

So wild. And so, what would you say to that, Joe?

I never understood plans because I don't know what the market wants. I don't know how they're going to respond. Fire, ready, aim. Like, I have to start and have a listening device and then create the plan.

Yes. I will advise people that they should start with something, whatever you think it's what you like, what you want to do. And maybe that will not be your calling or that will not be your business, but you will find out if it's your calling and this is what you want to do or it's not. And you could start something else. Don't take it as a failure. Like, I fail so many times, but I study. I thought, okay, I need to learn something and I move back. I will move ahead with some other things. I will never beat myself looking back because you can't change the past. Right. You need to live in the moment and plan for the future.

That's awesome. I think also for those who have advanced businesses, the same mindset I think is required to grow. You have to have that. You can't get that thing where you're trying to protect what you have and be so cautious. You can test it. I've done a lot of my businesses. I started with like a skunk group. Let's try something. I don't know if it's going to work or not. A lot. I didn't give up the core business. Yes, I had it. I always believe I got to run the business you're in, and like I said, the business you're becoming. If you just focus on what you're going to do in the future, you're not going to have your cash flow. You just focus on your cash flow, somebody's going to outcompete you. You got to do both. But I think if you're successful, you still got to be innovating. Innovating doesn't mean new technology, means trying a better way to meet your clients' needs. My last question is real simple: what gives you the most joy in your life at this stage of your life.

Can I go first? Yes. I get an email every day. I'm back with my husband. I'm back with my wife. I lost 200 pounds. I gave up drugs. I gave up drinking. Wow. I've got a little Tony Robbins thing. That's amazing. That's awesome. Every day from somebody. So how could I give this up?

No, you can't. That's your mission.

It's unbelievable. Your calling. Now they're going to start saying, and I got new eyebrows thanks to Joe.

Yes. I am in the most beautiful business. I make people to feel good. I mean, I make products and I teach them how to use them. I have the best job on the planet. And I love every minute. I wake up every morning and I'm thinking, okay, what else I could do? What else I could offer my clients?

What else could you ask for life than a higher purpose, something that calls you? We all need a calling, right? It's great to have something you care about more than just yourself. It's easy to meet your own personal needs, but I don't care if it's your kids or your family, your business, your mission, or some nonprofit thing. When you find that, you have a magnificent life. You are two truly magnificent human beings. It has been our privilege to spend time with you, and thank you for sharing your wisdom and your heart and your soul, and thank you for your example for all of us. Let's give them a hand, everybody. Thank you. So beautiful. Thank you.

The Tony Robbins Podcast is inspired and directed by Tony Robbins and his teachings. It's produced by us, Team Tony. Copyright Robbins Research International.