Spartan Race Founder Joe De Sena's Biggest Lessons Growing a $100M Empire

Hi, thanks for listening to the Tony Robbins Podcast. This is just a quick note about this episode in case you'd rather watch and see the video of this conversation, and that's found at youtube.com/tonyrobbinslive. You'd like to listen? You're in the right place. Okay, here's Tony.

So many people could be successful, but they don't have the mental edge.

I think you have to take yourself to an uncomfortable place.

Joe is the founder and really the creator and the CEO of Spartan. Joe put on obstacle courses and endurance races in over 40 countries and over a million people running through the mud, the fire, and these walls every single year.

And let me tell you, there's a lot of easier things to sell than what I sell. You're out there as an entrepreneur and you're building a business, there's going to be some competitor that pops up and they're doing it better. But we just wouldn't accept that.

What's your irresistible offer? What was your offer? I didn't know what it was.

I wanted people to come out and just get some sunlight. And somebody on the team came up with a tagline, you'll know at the finish line.

Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, help me welcome Joe DeCena, the original Spartan. Listen, man, you've got an unbelievable background. We met before, you reminded me, in LA. I remembered years ago, but your background— you've always been an entrepreneur. You're 8 years old, I was reading that at 8 years old you were selling fireworks, and then the teachers or someone that had to stop you from doing it. 12, you were running a pool business that got up to 750 families. I want to know what, what drove you to be such an entrepreneur so early on? And most kids at 12 are thinking about homework, and you're running a pool business. And I understand you did some for the mob, like Gotti was the pool you cleaned. Tell us a little bit about that stage of your life and where you think this driving force came into you to be an entrepreneur.

Yeah, you know, I think it's very important who we surround ourselves with. So if I think back I grew up in a neighborhood. If you ever saw the movie Goodfellas, I grew up in that neighborhood.

Wow.

Ground zero. And everybody there was a hustler. Everybody there got it done. You either grinded and hustled or you tapped out. And so, I grinded and hustled at a young age. I think I wanted to prove to my— was I smart enough? Was I tough enough? These guys, they'd make money and then they'd go to jail for 10 years or 20 years. And that's a pretty hardcore individual. It's a pretty hardcore mindset. I'm not suggesting people do things that get themselves put in jail, but I wanted to see, could I do it? And so I started selling things. My dad said, sell things, but sell legal things, Joe. Don't sell fireworks.

And tell me how you started a pool business at 12 years old.

My neighbor was the head of the Bonanno organized crime family. He saw my family was going through some rough times. My parents were getting divorced. He invited me over on a Saturday morning. He said, "You're going to clean my pool. I'm going to pay you $35 a week. I'm going to teach you 3 business lessons." He said, "Number 1, on time is late. If you got to be here 8:00 AM, you should show up 7:45. Number 2, go above and beyond. Clean the shed, straighten up the lawn furniture, clean the windows, even though you're not getting paid for that. And then number 3, never ask me for money. If you do a good job—" Wow.

What great 3 principles. Unbelievable. From a mob boss. I hope they understand. Well, tell me, so on your journey, I mean, you graduated from Cornell, right? 1990, you were 21 years old and you went to Wall Street. And as I understand it, you not only went to work for somebody else, you eventually built your own firm, 150 people, very successful, but, uh, wasn't really fulfilling for you. Tell us about that stage of your life.

Now, growing up, when my parents were getting divorced, my mom found yoga, meditation, health food, became a vegan. Very different than the Italian neighborhood we were living in. I rejected it, my sister rejected it. We didn't want any part of it. It was Remember, there was no Whole Foods or Yoga Journals or anything that we know today. It didn't exist back then. So she was considered very crunchy. I get to Wall Street, I'm on the trading desk, I'm making money. I feel like I've arrived, but I don't feel healthy. I don't feel good. I'm sitting in front of a computer screen. I'm not getting sunlight. I don't feel like when I was outdoors doing work. So I found my mother's ways again. And before you know it, I was competing in events, crazy events in the mid-'90s, the kind of stuff that you'd see on TV, 5, 10 days, 500 miles, and I just felt alive. And I started eating clean and I took cold showers and I did all the things that are now popular. And I thought, "Man, how do I do that for a living?" Selfishly, how do I do it every day and not just do it to escape my everyday life? Wow.

Must have taken some— What was the mindset, though? Most people try to hang on to what they've got. Even if you worked your ass off and lost 30 pounds and now you're doing these big things, most people would have stayed with their core business. You had 150 people. How did you walk away from that and actually decide to start this business?

I had a picture of a barn on my desk, and everybody on Wall Street talks about their number. What's the number? If you make $1 million, $5 million, tell me, what's the number? The problem is the number changes. That's right. And you never leave. Yeah. And I had that barn as an anchoring system for myself that just said, like, once I can get the farm, once I can find a wife, once I can start having kids, once I could pay for all that, I'm out. And that was it. I was out.

You found your place in Vermont, I understand.

Found a place in Vermont.

Yeah. Hit it. How long have you been there?

25 years. Wow. That's fantastic.

Well, you know, at age 31, I understand you got stranded in Quebec in the wilderness and you nearly died. It's a 350-mile race in the snow that could be 40 degrees below zero. And I guess you dug yourself beneath the snow to survive and you said— most people would say, "I'd never do that again." You said, "I'll never go back to Quebec." Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Never Quebec. Yeah.

But you also decided to create an experience for other people out of that where they would face death. In fact, you know, You had them sign a document that says, "I may die in this exercise." Tell me about the evolution of that. What was it about facing death? Because I've experienced as well. How did it transform you and why did you want to give it to others? And then how did people respond? Because I think your first group had like 8 people that wanted to do this. My first seminar had 7, but I didn't tell them they're going to die.

No, that's right. I think it's very hard to feel alive if you haven't faced death. And there are varying degrees of facing death, but like, being outside in the cold, going for a run in the rain, taking that cold shower, doing stuff that's so fucking uncomfortable, you start to feel alive. And that in Quebec took me right to the edge. So what happened?

You were in a snowstorm or what? Actually, we were in a snowstorm.

The organizers of that event— you got to remember, these big events, 300 miles, 500 miles, there's no participants, there's no money in it. So the organizers have no resources to actually set the course properly. The ropes were dangling 1,500 feet off the mountain. They weren't anchored. It was a shit show. But sometimes you have a bad situation happen to you that leads to a good situation, which was, could I do this en masse for the world, for people? Could I get people that are stuck on desks, on couches, whatever, out to do it? Because I feel so good doing it. And that first race was 7 or 8 people. And let me tell you, there's a lot of easier things to sell than what I sell. I sell, I mean, yeah.

Well, how did it— well, two things there. First of all, it made you feel so alive. I know, you know, told me— someone's told me you got a tumor in your brain, you're going to die. You know, I've had so many of those things in my life. And anytime you think you're going to die, and every day after that, for anybody who's ever faced death, you cherish every day. Every day is a gift. Like, it doesn't matter what it is. I know exactly what you're talking about physically in many ways. But when you went to share this and you only got 8 people doing this, how did you decide to grow that? I know your first one, would it have— was it a 70-hour program or something like that?

First race I put on, Richard Branson down in the British Virgin Islands. It was 350 miles long. It was actually before the race we were just talking about, and we lost a ton of money. It occurred right after 9/11. I lost a guy. Guy drifted for 150 miles unbeknownst to me. To Little Tobago. We found him 8 days later with the Coast Guard and Branson's helicopter. He was alive, and thank God. And I thought, oh, I'm in trouble.

That could really hurt your business.

Yeah, I thought, I'm in trouble. And when he got off the Coast Guard helicopter, he said, hey, I'm starving. Could we go grab a meal? I said, oh, this is going to be good. This is much better than I thought.

Oh my God. At some point, though, you look and saw the Death Race needed a shift.

You renamed it.

You started to say, I'm going to I'm going to take this to a mass audience. Tell us a little about what made that decision.

Well, so from 2000, from putting on that race I just described, through the death race where the 8 people showed up, it was clear that this was just a money-losing venture. I could not get people to come out. I would lie to people. I would tell them, hey, come up to the farm for barbecue weekend, but there was no barbecue. I was going to be barbecuing them. I wake them up at 5 in the morning. Why are we waking up at 5 in the morning for barbecue? Well, we got to carry it up the mountain. I'd make up stories and I just couldn't get it to work commercially. For some reason. For some reason. 2009, against my judgment, sometimes as entrepreneurs, we have standards we set that are just not marketable. In 2009, I broke my standards and I said, we're going to put on a 3-mile, an 8-mile, and a 13-mile. We're going to make it more accessible. It's not going to be 300 miles. We're going to change the name to Spartan, which was a significant change. Yes, I think so.

A marketing change.

We're going to catch the wave of social media, CrossFit, a bunch of military folks coming back from overseas. So we caught a bunch of tailwinds, which was great. Changed the name and it worked. 700 people showed up, which was more people than I had in the preceding 9 years. Wow. So it just happened.

So you figured out more of the ideal client for you, a larger base of clients than those that want to face death.

Yes. But it's important for an entrepreneur to know I could have quit at any point in time in those 9 years, but I kept iterating. I kept tinkering. Sometimes you have a product or service, it's just not fitting the market. You got to adjust it. And so I became a believer in this idea I think you agree with, which is fire, ready, aim. I took the shot, and then I started to aim over the next 8 years, and then we finally got it right. Well, it's also—

I always tell people, you've got to discover who's your ideal client, not just who's your client, so you can scale. And the second question always is, what's your irresistible offer? What was your offer? What is the offer of the Spartan Race? What is the promise?

No, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know what it was. I wanted people to come out and just get some sunlight. And somebody on the team came up with a tagline, "You'll know at the finish line." Wow. And it was genius because people didn't know at the start. They didn't know during, but they knew after they crossed. "Oh my God, I'm transformed. I'm tougher. I've changed my perspective." I could do a lot more than I thought I could. And so that was it.

And as you go from Spartan, from Death Race to Spartan, you're starting to scale. You get to 700 people. I know you acquired a partner, but before you acquired a partner in what, 2020, I think it was. 2019. Yeah, 2019. Tough mother. But before you did that, how did you start to scale from the 700 to a million people? I mean, you were getting to a point you had 350,000 people moving towards the stadium. How did you make that transition? So— And what were the marketing tools you used, out of curiosity?

Yeah, when I think back, I had no idea what I was doing, as most entrepreneurs don't know what they were doing. I put on one event, I got 700 people. Let's do a second event. Anybody smart— this was not me— anybody smart would have built rings around that first location because you had some word of mouth. But we went Vermont, New York, Montreal, Slovakia. UK, it made no sense. Yes. What made you go to those places?

Because of what was available, or there were people there that were interested, or?

I had people that had a heartbeat and were willing to make it work. And so they took a chance on their dime launching our brand.

Okay, so that's part of how you financed it too then?

That's how we financed it. And then Reebok came along and Reebok said, "We need one in South Korea." I was like, "How the fuck am I going to go to South Korea?" But we figured it out because Reebok was pushing us. Like, like Musk says, if you give yourself 30 days to clean your room, it takes you 30 days. That's right. I didn't have 30 days. Reebok said, we're not going to be your partner if you can't launch South Korea. So I had to launch 45 countries way out of our comfort zone. We had no resources to do that. We didn't know how we were going to do it, but you do it. Yeah.

And you figure it out. Especially when there's that much on the line and you finally got a sponsor of that size and scope. Exactly. And what was their response to your first programs? How did they find out about you? And then what was their promise in terms of sponsorship and how was their response afterwards?

They needed to toughen up their brand. I started to learn very quickly after 3 or 4 years that people like the Kardashians or Prince Harry or Gerard Butler were coming. Why are they coming to us? Oh, because we're a tough brand. And so we end up polishing, as crazy as that sounds, this little No, it's exciting. We were polishing their brand, so we were helping.

They were more the Reebok bouncing aerobics. Exactly. Kind of brand, right?

Exactly. We were toughening up, fill in the blank, that brand.

Oh, and, and what was that? Do they still sponsor you?

Reebok doesn't anymore. Okay. Um, Reebok had some tough times, but they've had some very tough times. We got lucky in, in acquiring some other big sponsors. They've been great.

That's great. Who are some of the big sponsors for you today?

Military. Military, militaries around the world love us for, for obvious reasons because we help recruiting. Oh, that makes so much sense.

Tell me about that acquisition in 2020. You know, do you take on— I don't know how long had Tough Muddler been around. They were your biggest competitor and they went bankrupt, I assume because of COVID We'll talk about COVID with you because you and I have a similar experience during that time. But tell me about how you acquired them and how big were they at the time? And then what was it like integrating them, or did you keep them separate as a separate brand?

So there's an example. If you're out there as an entrepreneur and you're building a business, it's not good enough for you to figure out systems and do all the things Tony says to do. There's going to be some competitor that pops up and they're doing it better. That's right. And there's no blueprint for that. And so here was Tough Mudder. They came out of Harvard. They were young, they were savvy. They knew digital marketing much better than an old guy like me. Right. And they were killing us. They were beating us every direction I went. Why did they go bankrupt then? Well, I'm relentless. And so if I knew they were going to be in a certain location on a certain weekend, we went the weekend before. That's great. We lowered—

We landed that. That's awesome. That's awesome.

We did whatever we had to do. And ultimately, we had weakened them so much by '29. I mean, on the one hand, you don't want to hurt anybody, but on the other hand, I was proud at the moment because I was— It's business. Yeah, it's business and it was tough. Competitor, but we beat them enough that come 2019, 2020, we had the opportunity to acquire them.

That's fantastic. It worked out. And when you brought them in, did you keep them as a separate brand or did you integrate them in? And how did the cultures mix? Cultures were different.

They were a little more liberal than we were. We were a much more conservative brand. We're 2,500 years old, right? We come back from ancient Sparta. Right. But I thought—

Not a lot of wokeness in Sparta.

There's not much wokeness. I envisioned a house of brands. Tough Mudder appealed to a certain mindset. Front would appeal, Trail would appeal, Deco would appeal. So I envisioned this system we would have very much like Vail Resorts has a bunch of different locations, or Cirque du Soleil had a bunch of different shows, and somebody would buy a season pass and they can go do anything they want all year long. And what we would be providing is the motivation to go to bed early, to wake up early, not drink the glass of wine, right? And do all the work. So separate brands, the Louis Vuitton of hard shit was the vision.

Oh, very cool. And did it work?

It worked, but then the pandemic hit, right? The pandemic, we were— Tell us what happened there because it took you near bankruptcy, didn't it? We went from, at that point, $145 million revenue to zero. We thought it would last 2 weeks. For us, it lasted 2 years. I didn't really know how to handle it because if next week the world opened up and I didn't have all my employees, how— So, it was a very difficult situation. But that wasn't even the hard part. The hard part, which I did not anticipate, was imagine the world opens back up and I've got to launch 300 events across 45 countries at once and start up all the trucks and trailers and get the insurance and book the venues. The, the cash strain at that moment, because, because when you first build a business, you go from 1 to 2 to 3 to 4. Yeah. And, and you're funding it. But to go from zero to that was the killer.

And you borrowed like $28 million from the government, right? So you had debt now too.

Size of that, a ton from the government. We borrowed from everybody we could. Yeah. Um, we, you know, we, our employees, our customer. I mean, it's been, it's been If you know the short story of Shackleton, who got stuck in the ice for 2 years, had to eat his dogs to survive. We've been eating dogs for 5 years. Oh, God. I'm getting tired of golden retrievers.

Well, this building is the result of the same thing for us, because if you can imagine, we're doing 15,000 people, 12,000, 20,000 people events all over the world, you know, taking over these stadiums. And then all of a sudden, the governor of California calls me and says, Hey, with this new COVID thing, you're going to put 100 people in the stadium. I'm like, that's impossible. This is insane. So I said, we'll go to Vegas. You know, no one's going to shut down Vegas. We moved 14,000 people to go to Vegas, and 10 days before they shut down Vegas, I said, we'll move to Texas. It's its own freaking country, right? Talk to the governor there. I'm not shutting down. I rented a guy's church down there as a friend of mine. We moved 14,000 people. I don't know, 6, 7 days beforehand, not even a week before, and they shut down. I said, we're going to do movie theaters. There'll be— you can put 10 people, remember, in a movie theater. Yeah, big screens, great sound. We'll do 1,400 movie theaters, then go locally. We'll make this happen. They shut down the movie theaters. So that's when I was like, eff it, right? I'm gonna build a place, 50-foot high ceilings, 20-foot LED screens. And I called Eric Yeon at Zoom and I said, I can't have 1,000 people, I need 25,000, I need 50,000. And he kept opening it up. And we did our very first seminar, and we did a free one first, and we had a million people join us from every country in the world. So now I do live and virtual, but all that happened because of having to adapt to that insanity. Tell me, how have you benefited? I know there's tough things that were for me too. I mean, I had the same thing. I don't want to let anybody go. I was loyal to my employees, and they kept saying a week from now, 2 weeks from now, right? You know, 2 years later, they're gone. 4 years later. How did you benefit even though it's been tough?

What goodness came out of COVID for you? I think for all the entrepreneurs here, this is really important. And not only in your business, but in your life. Complacency kills. Yes. And I think you and I probably, not to speak for you, probably were complacent in our businesses pre-COVID. And we were doing a lot of things that didn't move the needle or cost a lot of money. And so I've had no choice, using the analogy of the boat, to throw everything I can overboard. To try to save the ship. Right. And when we look back, if we've thrown 8 tons of stuff overboard, we didn't need any of it. Yeah. Business is still running fine. Yeah.

Well, you don't discover that till you have to, right? Yeah. That's the piece. But you have gone back from zero to— aren't you at $150 million?

Getting close.

Yeah. Give him a hand for that, ladies and gentlemen. That's pretty awesome. Yeah. Incredible. What do you think— If you think about these kinds of turning points, you also have done corporate trainings. You've done them for Google. I saw Goldman Sachs, Nike, and you've done them at your farm for, I think, a couple decades, right? Right. What is it, you know, in a world where most people are, you know, trying to make it easier for everybody, which drives me crazy. I think this self-care thing is out of control. Taking care of yourself is one thing, but people get weaker and weaker focusing on themselves and not on growing, right? But how have you been able to sell in a world of comfort and ease a product that basically says, "I'm going to kick your ass and put you in massive pain to transform you." I mean, you've done it for corporations.

Yeah, it's a very tough sell. The only— look, there's a reason why Google has the valuation it has and we have the valuation we have, right? They sell—

A little more scalable.

Yeah, they sell easy, we sell hard. Yes. So this is not recommend— anybody getting in business or running it, don't sell what I sell. But when there's somebody at an organization, somebody in a family, somebody within a friend group that knows what I felt back in the mid-'90s, they recruit the others. Okay. So—

And how does that— that's what I was going to ask you. How much of your business is referral business because people have an experience? And how do you take people from— I always say a satisfied customer goes away, but a raving fan stays. You have raving fans. Yeah. Because they've transformed. And so I'm curious, how do you take those raving fan customers and get them to multiple events like you do? And more importantly, how much of your business is those people bringing people to you?

If we had some data scientists and we had the resource to have a bunch of teams like we have— What's your gut level?

What's your gut level on that?

No, what I was going to say was we would even be better at it. But what we have is folks that go out and do 100 events, 200 events, 600 events. They don't want to go alone. They want to bring their friends. They meet new friends. When they're there, they use the lubrication of social media to talk to each other and share the photos. Oh, interesting. There's social currency that comes from like, "Oh my God, I did this. I'm such a badass." Yeah. And so it happens on its own. They get the tattoos. If I had the data scientists, there's even smarter things I could be doing to scale that even further. Yeah. But right now it's Flintstones, but it's working. That's great.

Where do you— my trainer, Billy Becks, his name is a great guy. And I guess he told me he met you one time. We were both speaking at an event. And he said, you were so quiet. You did not talk about anything. And he was really proud because he said he'd done a 50-miler. And he said, you know, like, how do you train? You know? And you don't brag, but you're like, well, I get up every morning and I start with 100 burpees. And he said, because, you know, after that, everything else is easier kind of thing. And then you talked about, you know, I mean, you, they did run. I mean, you're talking about going on a race with -40 below, could be even more with wind chill factor. How important is it to push through? Because you've been known as the deliverer of pain. What's the nickname they've given you sometimes? I've heard—

I don't even— I got so many nicknames. Depends if it's my wife yelling at me, or I don't know which nickname you're referring to, but none of them are good.

But how much do you think physical training matches your mental training, because I've seen them as inseparable myself. I'm just curious, how much, how much has that played a role in your ability to even build your business? The physical training you've done and the pushing yourself beyond physically, how much of that do you think has given you the mental edge and helped you succeed in your business?

Look, I think, I think you have to take yourself to an uncomfortable place. However, maybe it's reading a book for 9 hours straight, maybe it's being in silence in the dark for, for 24 hours, but But the fastest way, the fastest way to get to an uncomfortable place, take a shower, a cold shower in Chicago in winter, right? Physical gets you to a very uncomfortable place fast. And the longer you can withstand that pain, the stronger you become. I stole a term from you 20 years ago.

What was that?

You were on the news and you talked about obstacle immunity. Yes. Yes. And that's what we're talking about here. And the fastest way to build obstacle immunity is to face more obstacles. Absolutely true.

Because everyone, every human being— and I hope everybody hears this— every human being on Earth is going to experience extreme stress multiple times in their life if you don't do anything. Meaning, I don't care how spiritual, religious, or God-loving you are. I don't care how smart you are. I don't care how wealthy you are. You're going to have your house burned down, or you're going to get robbed, or, or something worse. Or someone's going to tell you of a disease, or someone in your family is going to have it. I mean, there's— I'm glad you came to this positive seminar, aren't you? Right? But everyone's going to experience that. The only question is, what are you going And it's that whole thing of, I'm going through hell, what do you got to do? Keep going. Because if you keep going, you and I both have experienced this. I think you learn 3 things. Number 1, you figure out how strong you really are. Anyone who goes to your program figures how strong they really are, and they're much stronger than they think they are. But the second thing I think you discover is who your real friends are, which I'm sure you discovered during COVID right? Because, you know, everybody sticks around when it's great, when it's tough. And then the third thing, though, is what you just hit on. It builds an immunity against future stress. 'Cause it's like I had a friend that was shot down in Vietnam. He was a pilot, young ego-driven kind of guy, his own description. And you know, he's older than I am, obviously. And I got to know him, you know, 10, 15 years, 20 years later. And I remember there was a situation, the IRS came in and they're doing this totally unfair thing. He eventually worked it out after 3 or 4 years. They took his money, just total bullshit. And he wasn't really very stressed. And I was like, "Doesn't this stress you out?" He goes, "Tony, once you've been laying down," they used to cuff him upside down, where they'd have a, when I say upside down, on a slant where his feet up in the air and they'd cuff him and put him in solitary confinement for days. And where he peed, he'd have to pee, all the acid would run down his back and burn down his back. They would abuse them every way. He goes, "After you've been with the North Vietnamese," he goes, "What's the IRS gonna do to you?" You know, it's like, but it's— Perspective. It's just complete, it's contrast, right? And I think most people are missing the contrast. So you are like the king of contrast and you bring it to people though in an elegant way that's an effective way that changes identity. And I think that's the unbelievable gift you're offering people.

But one thing is important for everybody. If this was the 1700s, Tony and I would be saying we need more Netflix, we need more penicillin, we need more couches. But we have it so easy. That's right. So you need that contrast. That's right.

And when people tell me, "I'm so stressed today," I go, "Do you really think it's more stressful today than the Dark Ages? Than when saber-toothed lions going after you? Come on!" But what's happening is I think people are so busy managing their life. They're managing things that put you in survival. It's like, you know, making a living instead of designing your life. And you start designing your life, I always say, when there's more physical energy and strength in your body. And the only way more strength in your body is by demand. That's it. Right? I mean, you've been the master of it. Tell me what— I mean, you've done so many amazing things. You've nearly died. You've cleaned pools for the mob at 12. I mean, built your business on Wall Street and now this incredible business. Tell me about the Olympics. I understand you're going to get this to be part of the 2018 Olympics in L.A.

2028. 2028. 2028.

Yeah, we go 2018, that would be really unique.

Magical. I met with the Olympic Committee. I had this idea. I said, we're going to make an Olympic sport because the risk I ran in my mind was that this became a fad. Basketball is not a fad, right? How do I make this a sport? So smart. And so I went out and reached the Olympic Committee and I said, what sports within the Olympics are having a tough time? Pentathlon was having a tough time because it's not— there's not that many people that do pentathlon.

Well, you have to do a lot of different things.

You got to do a lot of different things. And so I met with them and they came to see me and it was like an 80-year-old gentleman who'd been with the Olympics forever and very stuffy. And he said, it's going to take 25 years for you to do it because that's how long it takes to get sports in here. And I said, I'm going to outlive you. I will get this done. And we got it done. We got it done. He has since retired and we're sneaking in in 2028 under pentathlon.

So how does that work?

So they're removing equestrian as part of the pentathlon, right? Okay. And we will replace equestrian. And if that goes well, then you eventually spin out, hopefully, and it becomes its own sport. Wow. Yeah, that's brilliant.

When did you think of that? And what triggered you to think of that?

Yeah, I mean, that's like 15 years ago and just sticking with it and grinding and hope, you know, you got 50 things going on in your business and some of them are more important than the others. And then you wake up some days with 4 disasters and 1 win. Yeah. And that was a win.

One of the things that I try to share with people is I think you always have to be running 2 businesses, the business you're in and the business you're becoming. And you were thinking about the business you needed to become by having that kind of vision. What would you, if you're sitting across from a young entrepreneur today, young entrepreneur could be any age, right? Somebody who's new as an entrepreneur, what would be, what's some of the most important advice, 2 or 3 things that you have been taught by great entrepreneurs or you've learned by your own sweat and risk and pain?

Yeah. So I would say certainly, like we said earlier, fire, ready, aim, stop, No analysis paralysis, right? Just get out there, do it. It's okay if you piss a few customers off, you'll learn. Yeah. Right? Because you can't sit in a room with a business plan and a few people and figure out what the market wants. You've got to be out there hitting the ground. So that's number one. Number two, no amount of cash, no amount of investors, no amount of nothing is going to beat just pure resilience and grind. Nothing. Yes. Like if you and a bunch of smart people looked at our business, during the last 5 years, you'd say Joe's a dead man. There is no business. Balance sheet's a disaster. Business shouldn't exist. But we just wouldn't accept that. Just wouldn't accept it. And so here we are profitable again. It's just unbelievable.

Relentlessness.

There's no replacement. There's no replacement. All the stuff you're going to read in textbooks, everything everybody's going to say, you've got to be tough.

Yeah. We talk about business is one of the unique places where the more you play, the more likely you die. It's like being a gladiator, right? Because if you look at the stats, stats, right? You can see most businesses disappear. But what, 1 year it's 50%, 5 years it's 80%, it's worse, 96%. Yeah, 4% of businesses make it after a decade. And after a decade, you're totally guaranteed success, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Hardly, right? Yeah. So that's the ones that aren't even necessarily profitable, they're just still standing, right? I always say it's, you know, this is not a place for wannabes. It's a place for somebody who has found a passion and a desire that goes beyond the economics. It just says, I am made for this. It is my mission. That's going to get you up early when nothing's working and it's going to get to where it's working.

And then try to find something you love so much that when it sucks, which it will, that you stick with it. Yes. Because I should have tapped out, but I just love it. I love what I do. Yeah.

What's the future for your business?

Keep, hopefully, get fully stand back on our feet and then keep acquiring different disciplines. So again, if a person's excited about mountain biking, Yes. Or road cycling or whatever it may be. Right. We've got a full suite of products. All categories. Yeah.

That's exciting. And maybe some of those data scientists you're talking about. There you go. Bring them in. Bring some college student in there and let them work for you initially here and make it happen. Joe, I respect you so much because you live what you teach. There's not an ounce of you that's incongruent and you deserve nothing but success. And then we're going to ask if you'll join us afterwards. We're going to do one more interview so that then people can ask you the questions.

Will that work for your schedule? As long as they commit to a burpee for every question.

Who's going to commit to a burpee for every question? Ladies and gentlemen, you got it.

The Tony Robbins Podcast is inspired and directed by Tony Robbins and his teachings. It's produced by us, Team Tony. Copyright Robbins Research International.