The Psychology of Performance Under Pressure |Andrew Whitworth

As a young kid, my grandmother would drop me off at a Super One or a local grocery store because I would always tell her I love to go bag people's groceries and just talk. Like, I just wanted to get to know people. Like, and I say all that to say what I realized about myself as I became a player was that I'm built on empathy.

Who are you when you've allowed the thing you do exceptionally well to define you?

There's only one position in the world that plays with their back to the ball at all times, 100% of the game. You never know where the ball is. It's a job built off feeling. I can put myself in that rusher's shoes and I'm gonna study them to a point where we can dance together because I can actually feel everything they're going to try to accomplish before we do it.

Welcome back, or welcome to the Finding Mastery Podcast, where we dive into the minds of the world's greatest thinkers and doers. I'm your host, Dr.

Michael Gervais, a high-performance psychologist named Michael Gervais, who Pete Carroll brought in to work with the Seahawks, famous for his work with Felix Baumgartner when he jumped out of space in the Stratos Project.

Olympic athletes depend on something more than just training and talent. They have to stay mentally tough. Today's guest is Andrew Whitworth, Super Bowl champion and one of the most respected leaders in NFL history who did something almost unheard of. He stayed at the top of the NFL for 16 seasons and finished by winning a Super Bowl at the age of 40.

I've done everything I can do and I've accomplished the goal that I had. So am I doing this for me now? Or like, is it better for me to go lead my family and figure out the next walk of life? And then it all fell into place. I win multiple Man of the Year and I win the Super Bowl. And I have the epic moments sitting with them on that field because the coolest thing was I wasn't even worried about celebrating winning. It was like the meditation easiness came over me and I just was like, you know what? That was Daddy's last game. And like, I'm with you guys now, you know? And that's what it's about.

Andrew also opens up about the parts we don't often hear: self-doubt, mental health, and at the center of it all, fatherhood.

I'm somebody with extreme anxiety and negativity about myself. My wife would always tell me when I have these moments, when she realizes that I've gone too far, right? Or in front of the kids, or I'd come home and be like, man, you know, I failed. Like, I'm gonna get fired. She'll be like, don't talk about my husband like that. And that makes me emotional.

With that, let's jump into this week's conversation with Andrew Whitworth. [FOREIGN LANGUAGE] Andrew, this is, this felt like a long time coming for us to sit down.

I'm excited.

Yeah, me too. So, you know, if we're, if we're bifurcating this conversation in two parts, mastery of craft and mastery of self, if we just start with that kind of framing, what are you more interested in your life, mastery of craft or mastery of self?

I think for me at this point in life especially, it's really mastery of self. But when I go back and look, you know, at my career and, and really, you know, the time I spent playing football, I realized that a lot of that had to do with mastery of self as well. So when I go back and look at it, it's really like, I look at all those pinnacles of my life, even my young life before I became a professional athlete. I go back and look at the pivotal moments that like were actually just you learning how to like master who you are that actually led me to now. And so now it's like without football, it's like all mastery of self. So it's like, how many things can I master?

Well, you've got, you've, yeah, but you've got a new craft. You're on the desk, if you will, kind of, you know, explaining how the game is unfolding. On Thursday night games at least. And so there's other crafts that you're going to fold into. But what I hear is that you've been most interested in mastery of self even when you were one of the best in the world at your craft.

Yes, because I think inevitably, like, I think to me it's like my ability, especially as when you talk about playing the offensive line position, to control myself will really dictate my ability to master my craft. And, you know, I think that I've always related in my time, and people kind of like at first jump back at it, but I've always related the game of golf and me falling in love with it and me figuring out How to Become a Great Offensive Lineman. And it's because when you think about the game of golf and you go out and you say, all right, par 72, it's going to take this many great swings and this many decisions and ability to like master technique and touch and feel and get my body to do all these certain things in a controlled way to get to that par 72. When I think about a football game, there's 60 to 90 snaps that I'm going to have in a game as an offensive lineman because offensive linemen don't come off the field. So how many of those can I master my technique? And can I, every single play when I get out there and perform, can I step correctly, use my hands correctly, control my posture, my body, my footing? Like, am I using the ground and the force and the balance of my eyes and what I'm seeing all the right way? And then also master all the habitual movements that the defensive lineman has. Like, how does he move? I didn't study like how good a guy was or how many rushes they had that were successful. I studied like every posture that their body got in, every movement, and every— what it led to certain moves. And then I would get out there and I'd rush like I was them, and I would learn to feel like it was a dance and we are saucing together. And I want to know when your hips sway here, this is what's coming next. And when your hand or your elbow's here, it's going next. So when I was talking about mastering craft, I'm— I have to master myself to rush like Chandler Jones, to then flip around and say, I'm going to block Chandler Jones. So now I've got to be able to set in a way that dances in the same movement that he dances. So I didn't think of offensive line play like other people did. I thought of it as mastering me is we're going to dance together, and I'm going to figure not just how to stay in front of you.

Okay. I don't get lost for words very often because you just poetically walk through the way that you would organize your day, let's say, or week to play jazz, to sauce with another person. And you would actually— it sounds like you would try to inhabit them. Yep. So that you can understand them. And then you would look for habits and tendencies that they would do, inhabit that so that you would know, oh, when for him to go do this, his elbow is going to do this. And now I've got a leverage point because I already know what he's trying to do.

And yeah, I would go find their 3 most likely rushes, the movements that their body moves like and how they get into those rushes. And are they closer? Are they further away? All those things. So like, I don't care if we're talking about football or life or business or anything, like anything you do, Like, if you're facing an opponent, one of the greatest things you can know is to know your opponent better than they know themselves. And to me, if I know that and then I know myself, that's what helps me master my craft. And so that's why I say that for me, it's always been mastery of self, because I learned that as a human being, if we're off the football field, as a young kid, my grandmother would drop me off at a Super One or a local grocery store because I would always tell her I love to go bag people's groceries and just talk. Like I just wanted to get to know people. Like I would sit at the end, you know, you think of like you bag your own groceries. I would just love to like put their groceries in the bag and like ask 'em how their day's going or what they're doing. Or like, I just thought it was fun to have these conversations. And I say all that to say what I realized about myself as I became a player was that I'm built on empathy. I love to put myself in other people's shoes and feel their life and feel how they feel that day. And can I make 'em smile or can I make 'em feel better or can I make 'em relax? And the only way I could ever do that is like put myself in their shoes. And so when I became a football player, I realized, why not use what I know as myself to help me be the best at my craft? So my in is I can put myself in that rusher's shoes, and I can feel their body, and I can feel their technique, and I can feel what they're trying to accomplish. So I'm going to study them to a point where we can dance together because I can actually feel everything they're going to try to accomplish before we do it.

Empathy really is— by the way, this is brilliant. Have you written about this?

I have been asked by a bunch of people to do it. I have never done it, but I'm great at doing this. I don't know if I could sit down and write, but I got to like take an audio tape maybe and just start talking.

Take, take this tape and kind of push it through an engine. But I think what you're saying that I think is really important is one, you knew yourself, you knew you had a natural proclivity towards understanding and engaging with other people, but understanding them. So empathy is not only identifying what another person is feeling, but also conveying back to them that you feel it with them. And so taking that and building— that's like the ground zero. I don't have the right word here. Ground zero for building out your model to better understand how to be great. And so if the world could do that, know themselves, identify a natural proclivity or talent that is interesting and they're naturally kind of good at it, and then flex that and grow that in any environment that is also interesting, like football, you're probably onto something that is infinitely scalable for humans. And it's a little bit of the kind of the raw material, if you will, of people that are masterful. Yeah, very cool.

Yeah, I think it's interesting because I always tell people this and it kind of blows people away, but when I played football, I trained all offseason, like working out physically to get my body prepared for the journey that football season was. But I did not take sets. I did not, like, do football reps. That wasn't my thing in the offseason. Like, I just never did it. Like, a lot of years, especially the last half of my career, I never even, like, physically got on my feet and ran. I just trained in a way to be prepared for the journey. And then I used what I knew was my strengths, and that is the feel and the empathy of being able to, like, understand and be able to, like, oh man, I can repeat the things I see. And so those were my strengths and that's what I would do. So when I got into football season, I leaned all into football. That's when it became mastering that craft and mastering those things. But I first had to master me. So I would go on these journeys in the off seasons of one year would be CrossFit, one year it'd be, I'm going to see how many striders and running. I'm going to become an expert at sprinting. Like one year it's like I hired a swim coach and I was like, I'm going to figure out how to swim. That was a bad journey, but it didn't work. I was not good at swimming, but that was like the off season thing that I'm going to conquer. And all in the midst of that, golf was always one of the things that I kept getting brought back to. And it became something that just for me was where I found this mastery of figuring out— I could care less about playing golf with people. I wanted to sit and hit thousands of balls, listen to music, meditate almost, and just watch a ball go the direction or the arc that I wanted to put on it over and over and over again. And that's what I loved about actual golf, was to master that ability.

For people that would see you walking down the street, they see a 200 and what?

Oh, well, at that time, 6'7", 345 pounds.

345. Bald head, big jaw, huge shoulders, you know, and they would not instantly go, oh, there's a man of empathy.

Yeah.

So you have this yin yang about you. And I think that I just see this spark in your eye. You like that, don't you? You like this.

I do. And it's funny you say it because when I got out of football, so here I am, I've played football for 25 years.

And I get done college and pro.

We get from, you know, from junior high to high school to college to pro, winning the Super Bowl.

So you played all the way through the highest level?

Well, think about this, 25 years, won a Super Bowl, won a college national championship with Nick Saban, won 3 state championships in high school. A guy named Don Schaus is my high school football coach, went 58-2. Like, I've had a— been a part of 3 different programs that were unbelievable. Or really 4, and seen winning in a bunch of different ways. All this experience, but when I got done, I had no idea what I'm going to do. And I laugh at that because the first thing, one of the few people I talked to, I talked to Troy Aikman, Al Michaels, Kirk Herbstreit, some people that had been in the business, had these conversations. And Kirk Herbstreit is one of the people that said something to me that's always like just stuck in my mind because it was something that I heard over my time while I played. And it's what you just said. Is, you know, I'm a lineman, so you don't get interviewed by like press conferences. It's usually somebody at your locker.

Explain what a lineman is to folks.

So as an offensive lineman, you know, I mean, really at our position in the NFL, you think about it like, as long as we're not heard about, we're probably playing awesome. When you hear about us, it's because we've gotten a holding call that's called back an 80-yard touchdown.

And everyone goes, "Oh!" Oh!

Yeah, this play's coming back. And, you know, or we've, you know, false started, or we've gotten the quarterback sacked, and now it's a sack fumble, and the other team's running back for a touchdown, and they're gonna be like, "What happened here?" And it's, "Oh, Whitworth gave up a sack fumble." You know, so the only time our name is brought up is when we fail.

You are the protectors of the quarterback.

That's it. You're the protectors in general. You think about this, there's only one that I know of— there's only one position in the world that plays with their back to the ball at all times, 100% of the game. You never know where the ball is. It's a job— remember I talked about empathy? It's a job built off feel. So like, you've got to be able to feel what's happening behind you or where that quarterback might be, where the running back might be. You got to have these feelings of understanding the concept of the game and what's happening throughout a game and be to look at this defense. So a lot of my judgments are made off the eyeballs and the bodies that are in front of me. Where are they going? Where are they looking? Where is their feeling or energy going? That's how I'm trying to decide how to block this guy that I've got a hold of.

And how do you train that capability to have that sensitivity?

I think there's a lot of guys that have it or they don't because it's a feel thing. And so it's, it's, it's like saying that somebody has touch in the game of golf or shooting the touch that a Steph Curry was born with, an ability. Yeah, sure, he practices his butt off, but eventually there was some natural feel that he has.

So let's create two scenarios as an interruption to your story here though. But two scenarios. Version one is you come into the game and you're feeling some sort of pressure. You're overactivated. You've got some narrative in your head that this is a big game or whatever. You've made something up other than what it actually is and you feel tight. And you're a little noisy in your head, you'll have less feel and touch.

Yep.

Right. If you're clean, meaning version 2 is like you are taking one rep at a time, you are making eye contact with your teammates before the game started. You're feeling the way that you want to feel. You've got— I don't want to put words in your mouth about what your ideal state is. We'll come back to that in a second. And you're not very noisy up in your head. You'll have better feel. Yep. Full stop. How would you prepare yourself to be in that? That version of you where you're quiet, where you can access the feeling sensory information that's coming in?

Well, this gets into the negatives of knowing self, and that is I'm somebody with extreme anxiety and negativity about myself. Like, if I see myself in a mirror, I don't want to look at it.

Come on.

Like, for instance, I do Thursday Night Football. I've never rewatched a single thing that I've ever done because I don't like to see myself on TV. I don't like to hear myself talk. So For me, you're talking about getting in that position. What I actually had to do, I would study all week. Like, I'd be prepared. I'd know their body. I'd know how they rush. I know our plan. Like, football always kind of came easy to me, X's and O's. So I understood what we were trying to accomplish. I understood how they played. But on Friday afternoons, I used to go when everyone would leave, and not harder work, I would put on tape and I wanted to watch every great offensive lineman. It could be current guys. I'd ask our tape guy in Cincinnati, I want to see Anthony Munoz play. I want to see, you know, Orlando Pace. I want to see, you know, whoever it may be, Walter Jones. Like, I want to watch these guys play. It's like, oh man, that's cool. You know, I've heard Puka Nacua share that he loves to go watch great tapes of Jordan or Kobe or whoever, like, right? I wanted to watch him because I want to watch him fail. So I was watching for the rep where I'd see him get beat and I'd see him mess up. And I'd be like, it's okay. Like, I'll be okay. Like, that's Walter Jones. That's Anthony Munoz. Like, that's Orlando Pace. That's Willie Anderson. That's Jonathan Ogden. They mess up too. Like, you're going to be okay.

So you needed real evidence to have a sturdy psychological model or framework that it is okay to make mistakes. You couldn't just say it to yourself. You couldn't have a coach or a parent or somebody say, it's okay, mistakes happen. You needed to have real evidence via tape. Oh, yep. Look, they walk back. Oh, and they are one of the greats. So this is part of the equation. Finding Masters brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. If you've ever hired for a small business, you know the real cost isn't just the salary. It's the time that you lose when the fit is off, the momentum that stalls when that fit doesn't work. And that's the pressure of having to get it right while you're still running everything else. That's why I'm paying attention to LinkedIn Hiring Pro. It's built for the reality of hiring when you're operating lean. You describe the role in plain language, and then HiringPro helps you draft the job post, surface the right candidates, and then narrow to a shortlist without turning hiring into another full-time job. And when applications start coming in, it doesn't leave you buried in resumes. It streamlines screening, including AI-powered interviews for initial conversations. How about that? So that you can spend less time searching and then more time connecting with the people who match what you need. With HiringPro, you can hire with confidence knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, those hiring with LinkedIn are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months when compared to their leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at LinkedIn.com/Mastery. Again, that's LinkedIn.com/Mastery. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by David Protein. Nutrition is foundational to high performance and well-being, and being consistent with whole food choices is really important. Sometimes that's tricky, especially when you're on the go. One small practice that helps me on those types of days is having a smart, reliable nutrition option ready when I need it. And that's why I'm a big fan of David Protein Bars. The Gold Bar is their flagship product. High protein density, great texture, and flavors that make it easy to stick with. The team here at Finding Mastery, they love it. They're just ripping through them in the Finding Mastery Lab. Chocolate chip cookie dough and peanut butter seem to be their favorite go-tos. And for those who don't want to compromise performance just because you're on short time or in between meals, this is a solution that's worked incredibly well for me and the team here at Finding Mastery. They've built something with rigor and alignment that really stands out in a crowded, sometimes ambiguous space like nutrition. David Bars are now available in major retailers like Walmart and Target. And if you'd like to try them directly and get a special offer for being a Finding Mastery listener, head to davidprotein.com/findingmastery, where right now, if you buy 4 packs, you'll get the 5th for free. Again, that's davidprotein.com/findingmastery. I hope you'll check them out. Now, you wouldn't do a funny little thing in there to say, yeah, but they only mess up once a year, right? Of course they don't. But you wouldn't do a funny little mental gymnastics in there to create more tension for yourself. Once you see it, you'd say, oh yeah, okay, I'm okay.

Yeah, because when you're driven off of not necessarily depression but like anxiety and a self, like, man, worth type issue, all you need to do is see that somebody else has failed, somebody else has made a mistake, because you're, you're not in a world where you go percentages. You're in the world where you think, like, if I make one mistake my life's over, or this opportunity is over. That's how you feel. That's not the reality. But your perception is that that's how it is. And so I had to see these people actually fail and then see them be successful or struggle in a game and see like, oh man, they played a game where it was tough and they had a really good opponent and they struggled. And then that would be this feeling that that would gimme like everything's okay. And I would get in that tunnel and I'm about to run out the tunnel and play James Harrison or I'm about to run out the tunnel and play Terrell Suggs. And I'm like, no, I've watched other people fail. Like, I'm about to go out here and play great because it's okay if I fail. And that gives me the freedom to go play.

I really appreciate— because you are the strong man, walk— go back to walking down the street. I really appreciate more than you would know, probably, and maybe more than the Finding Mastery community would know, how you are speaking about empathy and honestly talking about how hard you are on yourself. But you're not doing it like a badge of honor, like, man, I'm so hard on myself. You're saying, no, look, it's not great. I had to figure out how to work through this. I didn't hear you say that you were clinically depressed or clinically anxious, but I wonder if you teetered throughout your career with anxiety or depression. And I'm saying, like, real stuff.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, you did.

Oh, yeah.

And the reason I would know that and you would know that is because the way we speak to ourselves creates our relationship with ourself, and it creates the relationship with our future. And so if you're speaking harshly about yourself, it's like this little micro cut, if you will. And it sets us up to feel kind of weak to be able to do the future. That's anxiety. I don't think it's going to work out, man. We got to do this and this and this. It's not going to work out. Depression is like, man, it's not— it's really not going to work out, and I don't think I'm worth it. That type of thing. So how did you work through it? Maybe you can kind of walk me through that.

Yeah, I think when you hear things that really help you, kind of like just like you would in a golf swing, it's like, hey man, I'm gonna keep my right elbow in, or my posture like this. Like, you think of a swing thought. I think a life thought. So for me, it's like little things that I've picked up through life that kind of help me deal with those emotions and feelings. Like, I can go all the way back to— I went to public school in elementary school, but I went to this private academy, OCS, Ouachita Christian School in Monroe, Louisiana, for just 2 years in junior high. And it was way far away from my home. And I can remember sitting by the flagpole in the night as it's dark and I'm waiting for my parents to come pick me up because they would have to come get me. When my dad got off work. And I can remember sitting and just staring at the sky and these anxious moments, these depressive thoughts and anxiety of like, just, I would get into these in-depth feelings and of just places I didn't even know where I was going. And then things would happen in high school as I went on to a public school in high school. And it's like I'd have these moments where it's like something would happen, I'd get in trouble or I'd say something I wasn't supposed to and I'd get so upset with myself. And then I would— like, now I look back and I go, wow, those were markers in my life where I changed something about myself. Whereas at that moment I felt like, why does this keep happening where it's like I do one little thing and the whole world falls? And I'd be like, no, that's your image. Like, you think the whole world falls when those little things happen, but actually those are moments where you're like self-correcting and you're figuring out how to live life. And so I would have all those dark moments. Like, I think in college, like my freshman year, Like, my coach Stacy Searles knows this. Like, I would plan it bad in a game, and I would walk home in the dark at night. I would make myself walk home instead of riding scooters or with the golf carts with the guys or buses. I'd walk all the way back to my dorm in the dark because it was like, I deserved that because I didn't play well. And then that turned into, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to go up to the facility, and there's a sled. I know it's out on the field. I'll push the sled in the dark just to like punish myself. So I would— I kind of started to learn that actions deserved punishment. So I would punish myself in the sense of if I failed or I didn't live up to my expectations, it became like that meant I needed to punish myself. I needed to regulate myself.

Where did you learn this from? Is this dad's voice, uncle's voice, early coach's voice, mom's voice?

So I brought up the empathy thing, but part of the empathy thing is I've always also had this special ability to sponge. And what I mean by that is I can just be around, I can hear, I can listen, and I'm just— people's conversations or people's thoughts or a show I watched or a movie. When you watch a show and you're like, oh, this show makes me feel good, like you watched a Full House back in the day or Family Matters or Fresh Prince, I didn't ever walk away with, I like that show. That principle that whatever that show was about never lost my mind. And, and like, I thought on it constantly and like pondered on it and like just all the time, like it was in my mind of like the principle of, you know, a dad and a son and their love. And man, being rude to your friend and like, man, maybe in a moment, like selfishness or inclusion or excluding people, like any of those emotions that in those shows, like, I deeply felt them. To the point where, like, even now it's hard for me to watch a movie that's, like, too emotional or, like, gonna make you think about something because it, like, rocks me like a nightmare. Like, I'm gonna live in that emotion for days, whatever I watch, because in my mind I've gotta feel it, I gotta empathize with it, and I gotta go through all the feelings that they went through and flush it. And then for me, the curiosity of who I am, like, how would I have handled it? How would I have felt? What would I have done? Like, what could they have done better? Like, what could the reaction have been? And I got to think through all those scenarios. And so that's how, even in sports and in life, that's why I say this mastery of myself and the mastery of my craft have always gone hand in hand for me, because I don't need to just master what I need to do in my craft. I actually have to have a figure out what was it that Chandler Jones should have done better, the guy I was going against. What, what, like, what should he have done better? What should the rusher have done better? What could have worked better for my opponent? Or In my case, like in life experiences, like where was I right? Where was I wrong? Where was the other person right and wrong?

Your level of awareness is kind of jumping out that you are aware of your inner experience, the way you speak to yourself and the way you feel at a really heightened level. And there's a double-edged sword to this.

Very.

Yeah. Because I think you're not afraid to feel. I've been fortunate to be across 4 Olympic Games now, 3 Super Bowl experiences as a sports psychologist and scores of others. I'm really clear that those events are for big emotions, but not because they're bigger than other games, but there tends to be big emotions that come forward in those experiences. And if you're not great with emotions, you get run over. And I'll crosswalk that to life is for big emotions. And most of us are so afraid to feel the depth of the emotions that we mute it. You haven't done that.

Yeah.

Do you feel different than other people?

I feel that I do. I don't know that I do, but the reaction of the people I get around is that I do. You know, I mean—

I'm wondering if there's a loneliness in the— because of the depth that you go.

Yeah. Oh, massively. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of people. Let's give an example. I have more people in my life and I can say this not as a badge again, I have more people in my life that convey the message of, I'm so thankful and grateful that you ever came into my life, than people that I would say I actually think I'm really close with and friends with and I talk to every day, which is weird. I think that's a weird emotion. It's weird that that's not an emotion, it's a fact.

It's a fact, yeah.

I don't have a lot of people in my life that I'm like, oh, me and this person chitchat every day. I have a lot of people in my life who call me in their dark moment and it's like, let's talk. And then I might not hear from them again for a while.

That's right.

But I'm going to be there and I'm going to be available and nothing's changed. I'm not saying that in a negative way. I'm just saying I have more people in my life that it's that than I do that it's like I'm going to chit chat or people say, what's your golf group? I don't have a golf group. I have a— man, I'd really like to host this group of guys that I don't think ever get to go out and play golf. So I'm a member here because I can create those experiences for them. And then I get to like feeling the joy of them getting to go play. Like, I have more people like that. Like, that, that list is long because I love to do that. I love to give people that experience.

But you're not the lone wolf. You know, you're a pack animal, but you're— I'll mix metaphors here for just a minute because I had a metaphor about the well. Like, your well runs deep and people recognize it, that because of that depth, they feel safe. Let's say your well goes down 10 units and there starts to kind of feel really cold water at unit 3. And they're like, yeah, but Whit knows how to get down into Unit 10. Like, he can go a lot further. He's been there, so I can call him.

Yeah.

So you feel safe in that way to them?

Yeah, I do. I feel like— I don't think you can control what people's perceptions of a relationship are or what they might perceive, like why you would benefit from this relationship. Or like, I can't control the other side of those relationships. What I can control is my availability and my consistency of who I am. Over time to people. And I think that inevitably that's what means something to me. Like, I don't care that a person texts me every day or checks in with me every week. Like, that may be a lonely feeling sometimes. Like, hey man, I wish they'd hit me up. Like, I'm kind of bored this week or lonely, but I don't really actually genuinely care in our relationship. What I do care is that if I give them information or I tell them I want to help them, that they understand that it is coming from a place where I genuinely just want you to be happy and successful. And like everything to work out in your life in the way that you want it to. And that's how I'm going to provide the advice.

That's the intersection between empathy and mastery. So you're sneaking a couple of things in here is that you are not interested in the things that you cannot control. Yeah, it's nice when somebody calls. It's nice when you win. By the way, you can't control winning.

So 300 people call you when you win. You hear from your mom when you lose. You know, that's the reality.

And so what you are interested in is the way that you can work from consistency over time. Now you snuck that in there. Consistency over time. And so I'm interested in how do you develop consistency? What does that mean to you? Time will take care of itself. It's happening right now underfoot. Okay, but how do you develop consistency from somebody who has high empathy, high awareness of what they're saying and feeling and how others might be saying and feeling or might be feeling things as well? What is your mechanism to be consistent? Because I think it's consistent with character. More than is consistent now with arm placement.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think it's, to me, some really important values that I relate to. And that is like one that I think is really key. And I think it's like you hear people who, if we're talking about nutrition and starting a diet or a life change, if we're talking about addiction and it's like, I want to create new habits, or if we're talking about making this change and whatever it may be in your life, that every single day is a new day. That you reset the pieces and you go again. And it doesn't really matter what happened the day before. And so what I mean by that is, is like, all right, I'm going to live in this moment, in this day, and I'm going to try and accomplish everything it is that I set out to do. And I might fail at it. But the most important thing is not whether I failed and not whether yesterday was perfect. It's that tomorrow I wake up with the same renewed vigor and energy to go attack that same process again on a daily basis. And that means that, man, I want to be a better dad, man. I might be awesome at morning dropping them off, and then in the afternoon somebody might have invited me to play golf and maybe I missed a moment, or maybe Amazon had me go do something. I might have missed one of my kids' games or whatever. The next morning I don't wake up and go, man, I'm just a bad dad. No, no, no. Today I go at it again. Today it's like, I'm going to wake up again. I'm going to create the most energy possible when I drop them off. Let's be great. Let's have an awesome day. I love you guys. Can't wait to see this afternoon. And I'm going to try and live that day even better. The next day, and it may happen again, but every day I redo it again.

Did sport teach you that, or did somebody in sport teach you that?

I think what I started to realize is that the people in my life that had the most respect for— the coaches, the, you know, adults that I might have said, hey, you might not have been my mentor, but you're somebody I looked up to— I started to realize that the real character trait that a lot of them had was I could count on who they were. And so for me, when I grew up, people say, who'd you idolize? I go, man, I don't know. I never really got into the idol thing. I never got into that.

I have a hard time with that question.

What I did have, man, there's some traits that Jordan had that I think are really cool. There's some traits that Aikman had or Emmitt Smith or whoever it may be. It could even be a wrestler like Hulk Hogan, the confidence.

I thought you were WWE.

It could be all these things, right? No, but I always say like, hey, don't tell me the person you idolize. Tell me the 25 traits of great people that you think you could emulate. And that to me is something that, like, I was always intrigued by.

There's a mechanism that we walk people through. So we take best practices of elite sport and crosswalk them into big business enterprise. And so the same way we work with the head coach, CEO, and athletes, we work with the employees. And so one of the things that we found is materially important is to know yourself, which is exactly what you're talking about. And we will ask a question. It's a kind of a walk-up, if you will, of, of to help you know your personal philosophy. And we'll say like, Who are the people that you respect? But it's— this is not the real question. Just, just jog it down. Like, who are people you respect? Not admire. We don't use that word, but who you respect. And then part 2 is, what are the principles that they live by that are most interesting to you? Because we can't replicate their life or their choices, really, but we can replicate a process to develop those principles. And if you're consistent with those principles, you got something like really powerful. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Rag Bone. I've been a big fan of Rag Bone for a number of years. I just love what they do. It's a go-to for me when I'm choosing clothes. I've been wearing their Infused Denim for a while now. They've done just a really nice job with this product. For me, I am really intentional about what I invest in. In clothing, it's no different. I want things that are well-made, that stand the test of time, that don't distract me, that support my focus on the things that matter most. And that's exactly why these deliver. And they look sharp, full stop. They've spent 20 years obsessed with getting this product right, and that kind of long-term commitment to craft, that's something we talk a lot about here at Finding Mastery. Quality compounds. The right inputs made consistently over time show up in everything, and you can feel that the moment you put these on. If you're ready to upgrade your denim with something that's genuinely built to last, head to rag-bone.com and use the code Finding Mastery for 20% off your entire order. Again, that's rag rag-bone.com, r-a-g-b-o-n-e.com, and use the code Finding Mastery for 20% off.

I always say that about coaching. Like, you look at some of the coaches, when people talk about a tree, they're like, man, why somebody come from this tree, a coaching tree? Like, you could look at the same thing in a business. Like, this boss, like, how many people have been under this person and they've gone on to be successful and create this or that, right? I've always said, I think people struggle who want to imitate who they're led by. But people who can figure out how to emulate, what are the standards? What are the processes of character? What are the pillars that this person's built everything of who they are on? Can you find some of those that could be one of your pillars? Is there something about them? I say this, when Sean McVay got the job of the Rams, people are like, man, this genius, X's and O's, all stuff. No, he filmed it all. I know he did because he trained himself under the Niners and his grandfather and everything. So Bill Walsh filmed every single meeting. Sean filmed every single meeting. We took the job. If you got the tape of the first 3 days of him being the head coach of the Rams, that could to this day be one of the greatest leadership meetings in the world, CEO meeting of any company. And it was about, let me help you guys understand the 4 pillars we will always be built on: character, consistency, communication, all those things that relate to how we're going to do things. So what does communication mean to you? Is that verbal? No, it's not all verbal. Any workplace, communication is visual and it's verbal. It's your body language, it's the tone, it's everything you say things with, and it's what comes out of your mouth. Consistency on a daily basis, like how you're going to live, what are the standards, how are we going to uphold those things? Character. What does football character look like, and what does character off the football field look like? All those type things we put together is like, he's like, hey, these are the four pillars that we'll be built on. And once we build these four pillars, we'll move up to how we'll compete on the football field, how we'll do all these other things. But if we can't do these, everything will crumble because a house doesn't fall because the roof starts, it falls because the bottom, the base. And so when I talk about those things, it's like when you look at people you've been around, I say, man, I don't want to be Sean McVay. I think there's plenty of qualities of Sean McVay he can keep. He's my brother. I love him to death. Plenty of things I don't want to be like Sean. There's a million things that I'd love to be like him. but what I took from him were confidence that's built with humility. Like, he's got confidence, but he's also got a humbleness that he doesn't have all the answers. And you give him a problem, he's going to find a way to solve it, and he's going to work until he can't function anymore to find that answer. So he's got confidence that's built with humility. He's got passions that are built with persistence. That little kid who wants a baseball bat so bad for Christmas, and mom and dad get it to him, and 2 weeks later they don't even swing it anymore. He's not built on that. He's got a passion of what we're going to do, and he's got persistence that we're going to finish it. We're going to find where those two things meet on a daily basis. Right? And so to me, when I look at people and I look at those things, it's like, how are humility and confidence go together? How do passion and persistence go together? How all the things— like, people hate the word balance, but balance doesn't mean I don't do anything more than I do another. Balance means finding how do I full throttle everything in my life but find where all those things actually find a place to balance out in the middle. That's where I want to live. And I want to wake up every single day with the pieces reset on— I want to be a great father today. I want to do great in my workouts and my diet and nutrition today. I want to be a great husband. I want to be a great friend. I want to wake up with that same vigor and energy and infectious enthusiasm that chases that version of me every day.

First and foremost, I'd ask you to say it again because I think you could, but what you just said was Awesome. There wasn't a word out of place. And what I think most people might miss of the football world, because they see large humans knocking each other around, is there is incredible sensitivities to helping people become their very best.

Yeah.

And there's a process. There are frameworks. There are practices that happen every day to a standard of excellence. Listen, there's problems in football, but it is a phenomenal working laboratory to figure out ways to express human potential. And again, there's some problems.

Oh, plenty.

That's not the aim of this conversation. I want to come back to humility in a moment. I want to placeholder that. But I also want to say, I think you're really visual. The way that you are walking through everything you just walked through, which were principles, I think you see in your mind what you're saying.

Oh, yeah.

Right. So you—

there's a movie playing.

There's a movie playing. And that movie is in color. Oh yeah, it is. And so when you close your eyes and you see yourself being great, or you see something happening for one of your kids, you can actually feel that movie as well. Did you use mental imagery on a regular basis as an athlete?

Yeah. So when I say I would study a Russian, do a dance with them, I can literally picture their bodies moving before the— like everything, the whole image. That actually, I would say there's multiple times in my career where the movie played while I was playing, and I would be like, oh, crap, he didn't do what the movie said. And it's like, oh, no. I could literally see it all so fast that sometimes I'd be like, this is coming next. And it was coming, but I might go too fast. Like, I was ahead of the movie.

Yeah, that's right.

I could literally see the whole movie happening the whole time. And it was more about trusting that I was seeing the correct movie.

When we studied the difference between people that medal at the Olympics and people don't— when I say we, it wasn't me, it was the field. I think it was back in like 2008 or something like that. This research came out that automaticity, meaning allowing things to be automatic, was one of the hallmarks of elite athletes that actually won in those competitions. And emotional regulation and self-talk, those three were distinguishing features. And I think you have all three of those. Disciplined, aware of your self-talk, and probably pretty disciplined to know what's useful. You are allowing yourself to be automatic when you're at your best. Sometimes you'd see a movie and it would junk you up a little bit, but sometimes it was helping you. And you're able, because of your natural proclivity to empathy, you're able to work well with emotions in an honest way.

Right?

Does that sound like some of the broth is coming together? And you're principle-based. And it sounds like it was a great environment for you to be taught by somebody that was principle-based?

Well, I said the sponge thing, right? I said empathy and sponge. I said I moved to sponge next, right? Okay, so I'll give you an example of the things we've just discussed.

Okay.

Don Schaus, my high school football coach, 58-2, 3 state championships, ton of success.

What is his last name?

Don Schaus. S-S-H-O-W-S. Don Schaus. So Don Schaus, 58-2, ton of success. Punisher. Little small guy, think varsity blues. Hung from my face mask every day, punished me every time I ever made a mistake. Okay. You know, like every— like literally, verbally, physically destroy you at every mistake. Okay, where did— what happened to me there? I built that characteristic into college. Nick Saban.

What characteristic did you build?

Punishing myself. I want to go push a sled. I want to walk home in the dark. I—

this doesn't sound healthy to me.

No, but I'm a sponge. So every leader I've ever had—

that's what you're saying.

So here we go. Nick Saban. Process over results. I mean, I could quote out Nick Saban's press conferences. Best part is, is I am the least surprised person of anyone to see Nick Saban killing it on College GameDay.

Why?

Because a lot of what people took as out of control of his emotions or anger or whatever, Nick Saban planned for you to ask him that question in a press conference for months and years before you ever asked it. And he knew exactly what was coming out of his mouth the second you did it. Because he had a process-driven mindset that I will be prepared to send messages. He wasn't talking to the media. He's talking to every single guy he led and every single person that worked with him. And he wanted you to hear his message.

That's what Coach Carroll would say all the time. When I first met him, he would say it. When I'm in front of the media mic, I'm talking to the locker room. Yeah, right.

Sometimes I'm talking to ownership, but most of the time I'm talking to Nick Saban sending a message.

That's right. Yeah.

You took it as an irrational reaction to your question. He took it as, I've been waiting for you to ask me that. And this is the tone and the energy that needs to be met with what I have to say. Or he'd say, hey, you guys want me to preach for a second? And he'd start talking because it's something he wanted you to just really feel what he had to say. So I learned that from Nick Saban.

What did you learn there specifically?

Well, just the process and the being prepared for all things at all times. Okay. Right. So process over results. That's where I really think I developed my consistency as a human. Human in every single day and how I'm going to work, how I'm going to prepare. And the scoreboard's not going to matter to me. What's going to matter to me is the next snap. Do I come with the same energy and attention to focus and detail every single day?

You say that the scoreboard didn't matter. Is that honest? It's easy to say.

Yeah, because the only thing I'm focused on, like I said, we could win by 30, we could lose by 30, I'm still equally as upset with myself of my perfection. And that's what he really means. He doesn't mean a team that's disappointed in a loss or win. He means individually, you need to become process-driven. And if he can get— I say this all the time, like you brought up the book thing. Somebody asked me, Dave, would you write a book? I said, yeah, I want to write a book. I want to call it It Takes All 11, because the reality is that's what he's trying to get. He's trying to get all 11 individuals on the field to truly believe that the process with which they go about how they prepare, how they play, their daily process every single day, if he can get 11 guys to process it that way, then they're going to be unbeatable because that's the truth. And that's what's cool about football is that it takes 11 people and one can be off, right? And the only way you still are successful if one of those 11 isn't good is somebody has to do something supernatural, right? Just something you've never seen before. They've got to overcome it, right? They've got to overcome this big adversity. But you come from a place where you look in the NFL, there's 53 guys, different communities, different skin colors, different backgrounds, different economic statuses. We've got to figure out how in the world we come up with a process that we all believe in, that we all want to fight the same direction, that we want to overcome an ACL, we want to overcome an injury, we want to overcome this pain, we want to overcome our wife and I aren't getting along, our kids are stressed out, this is going on at home, my parents, blah, blah, blah, blah. But the same energy we're going to come together with every single day, we're going to go chase this championship. And oh, by the way, this other team over here, they're employed and they have the same kind of talent, they have the same kind of abilities, and we gotta overcome them as well. You've gotta be able to get all these people to buy into that belief and direction. That's the challenge of a coach. That's the challenge of the leadership of a football team. And so to me, that's what makes football so unique and special is all the things that have to encompass success.

I'll add one layer to it. You said it's good for a football coach. Or a leader. I think it's also good for a business unit, a business leader, and a father or a mother and a family unit. Like, it's— or maybe a preacher or a nonprofit leader. Like, same, same idea to get noses and toes pointed in the same direction with all of those unique narratives and the noise that's happening inside of all of our lives. To line up in that way is really hard to do. So you took from, from Nick Saban process Process and results. An honest investment in process.

And how to build it. Now, let's go the next journey. Cincinnati Bengals for 11 years. Marvin Lewis. What did I learn in that place? Well, a place that a lot of chips were stacked against you from a competitive standpoint because just ownership there is always operating a different way. But Marvin Lewis was one of the most consistent humans that I'd ever seen in my life of just who he was going to be. Even at a young age, he was a true grandpa-like figure. Like he just was. He believed in toughness and no sympathy whatsoever. And just, you sign up for this job. I don't care what your excuses are. I don't care what other things you could say. We could not win. We can't win because of this. We can't win because of that. No matter what, I show up every single day. I put my hard hat on and I go to work. And that's the things he talked about. That's the things he believed in. And he loved his guys. To this day, when I see him, he tells me about every single player and where they are. And their mama said they're not doing good, or their mama said they are doing good, or they started this business, or now they're coaching. And he'll even call me. He just called me 2 weeks ago. Hey, your buddy you play beside, Nate, he's getting into coaching. I just called him trying to get him a job. Like, he'll just update me like a true father.

He's a relational person.

Yep.

Oh, like a true father.

Like a true father. And so to me, he gave off that vibe of that kind of love for you when you played for him and the consistency you could count on in him.

Unconditional.

Yeah.

Does he talk to the guys that didn't play very well the same way?

I always felt like Marvin was one of the most even-keeled, same person to everybody. Now, Not everybody loves— it's just about toughness, it's just about, hey, there's no sympathy here. Like, you may not appreciate that, but that was the reality of who he was. Now, what you would get frustrated at times is, is like, hey Marvin, I know you love these guys, but like sometimes you need to punish them a little better. Sometimes you need to say, hey, there's some repercussions for if you show up overweight, or if you don't do things the right way, or you get in trouble. Like, I get it, like we want to keep giving these guys an opportunity to change, or we want to keep giving these opportunities to be a certain way, but At some point we got to hold them accountable. Like, there's got to be accountability in this picture.

How do you do accountability, privately or publicly?

I think it always starts privately. I think that's the reality, is that I don't really ever see where public accountability helps. I mean, private accountability that's built on our relationship, the uniqueness of, you know, you may not love me or you may not respect me, but you know what you can appreciate about me is that me and you are able to have this conversation and I've told you how I feel about it and you can feel about the way you are. That doesn't mean we end on the same page. It might end— we end differently. But eventually you'll come to a place where you'll go, I may not respect you, but I respect what you had to say and I'll process it. It's not my— again, not my job how they process the information and what they do with it. It is my job if I'm the person in charge, if I'm the head coach or I'm a captain or I'm somebody who's in charge of the standard, it is my job to make sure it's known that it doesn't meet the standard. That is my job.

And you do that privately or publicly?

Privately. Always.

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yeah, always.

Yeah, always.

He always does.

Yeah, he's going to say it and he wants you to say it and like say it out loud, you know. So how would you manage Monday when there was mistakes being made?

Well, it depends on what the mistakes are. So if you're telling me that a guy got beat because a guy's flat out better than them, or they got outmanned, as we would say it in the game of football, like, hey, that this person was just more talented than you and there's not a whole lot you to do other than, hey man, maybe there's a little technique thing or something that may could have sustained this opportunity better, or we could have done this a little better physically. I mean, that's a different thing than, all right, here's the standards of how we think we want to execute this, and we know that this is your baseline assignment and you're doing it wrong. To me, that's got to be called out. Like, if you're not in the spot that you're supposed to be in when you're supposed to be there, something that you actually control— that's not, you know, the game of football. We have to remember some of these physical things of getting overcome with how fast a guy is, or, or like he's stronger than you or bigger than you or whatever. Like, there's not a whole lot you can coach in those moments. But what you can do is say, were you in the right place? Were you playing with the standard of how we think effort, energy, attention to detail is supposed to be? And those kind of things, I think the whole room respects that kind of accountability. And our whole room wants it. Like Sherm said, like, you want those things pointed The difference is, all right, we come back to training camp, you know, two of your starting linebackers are 40 pounds overweight, or they're 30 pounds overweight, and they can't play, like, you know, or they need to lose weight to be ready to go for the season. See, that is a different kind of—

okay, that's good. Play this one out. Play they're late and disheveled, and their pupils are so big in the morning because they've been drinking too late. Drinking too much, drinking at all. And then they go out and they perform lights out. They're really good. Mm-hmm. How do you deal with that type of behavior? Because this is what I think in elite sport or even college and youth, you know, not that college isn't elite, but it's different. Um, and in business, a high earner, somebody that is extraordinarily talented, but bad teammate, bad culture person. Like, how do you manage that type of complexity amongst the team?

Well, I think you hear people try to make all these things all the time. Coaches will say all the time, like, hey, you may not all get treated the same, but you're all going to get coached the same. All those type sayings. I think that's a reality in our sport. I think the words that I thought you were about to say that I've heard a lot is production breeds tolerance. And that's the truth in the game of football. It's a reality. It's the truth in life and businesses and everything else. We tolerate a lot of high earners. And I would say that for me personally, if that's somebody that is a higher earner, but I'm the captain, or we're a leader, or we're expecting them to live in a certain way. I always kind of went by this. I think of it as a head coach and the people in charge, like, those are kind of like, if you will, the, you know, generals, the sheriffs of a community. And they've got to kind of establish, here's our law, right? Here's our rules. Now, that next group of guys, the captains, the leaders, like, all right, if this guy has a law and a rule and this is actually what it's going to be, which you've got to be consistent in, you can't change it on me, then you give me the freedom to be the person who kind of polices it a little bit and says, hey, hey, listen, like, he's late. What's our standard? Our standard is they get fined. Okay, we'll find them. Like, there's no question. We don't need to talk about it. We don't have to have an argument. We don't have to like find them every single time. Just create a fine level that we think sends a message and do it. Like, there's no discussion that needs to be had in those situations if it's about being late. Now, if it's a repeat offender, it's fine. And it's, hey, as a captain, as a leader, like, hey, man, you know what? It's my job to make sure that I get with that guy and say, hey, you can't do that. Hey, what's going on, man? What's up with you? What's going on in life? What's going on with you? How can I meet you in a place where I say this all the time and you're going to hear me cross-relate a lot of things. That's just how I am. I told you this. I see this like with community service. I won Walter Payton Man of the Year, really amazing honor.

Explain for folks that don't know what that is.

So Walter Payton Man of the Year is the NFL's highest esteemed honor. So it's why it's given the very last award on NFL Honors. And it is people who have excelled on the football field and everything they've done in sport, and then they've excelled as a community leader in how they've devoted themselves to the communities they've played in and the things they've either through their charity or through their efforts been a part of trying to improve the communities in many different ways. And so I had that honor. You know, also in my last week in the NFL of winning Walter Payton Man of the Year and a Super Bowl. Pretty insane way to go out. But to get to do that, I used to always say when I got into that, and the more I was a part of it, which goes back to empathy a little bit, is like, I didn't ever want to be the person who's like showing up at something and just providing somebody with something that I thought they needed. I wanted to be someone who found this relationship with them and said, oh man, like, this is what they need. Like, I can feel through their heart or through what they are. Like, they can tell me directly, this is what you need. So I always wanted to go meet the people that were maybe struggling to find a home or have lost their home and stuff. Like, what is it that— oh, you need this? Okay. Call our director and say, hey, Molly, they need this. This is what we're doing. I'm not coming to you with what you need. I'm coming to you to meet you like this and go, this is what you need. So as a leader, the guy who's habitually late, I want to go form a relationship and go, What is it that's leading to this? Like, how can I help them solve their own problem? Not for me, but for them. And if I can help them solve their problem, then naturally, not only are they possibly going to eliminate the problem, but now when new problems arise, who do you think they're going to think of when they're like, man, this is a struggle? Like, I wonder if Big Whit would have something to tell me about X, Y, and Z. Like, when I think of my career, I don't think of playing as a Cincinnati Bengals. I don't think of Los Angeles Rams. I think of Jewel Bernard having like, you know, wanting to get married and ask, you know, Chloe to like, she's gonna make her my fiancée. Or Mohamed Sanu having his first kid, or AJ Green and like his first ever contract. And Andy Dalton, the first time he's with a contract, first time he had a kid. Like, I think of those moments. Cooper Kupp, the first injury he had as a rookie, like him and Anna and their children and like their families, they've grown together. Like, I think of those things that I got to be a part of, these cool conversations that these guys were having these huge life moments and I got to sit there with them and think about it. Not that I gave them an answer, but that I got to live it with them a little bit.

So your empathy leads to curiosity or your curiosity leads to empathy? How did those two variables—

Probably curiosity leads to empathy because I would say that empathy is built off being able to be there, right? And you can feel and all those things. I can walk in a room, I say this to people all the time, a lot of times they're like, man, you're so awesome at like public speaking and blah, blah, blah, blah. And like something, but I'm like, ah, yeah. I mean, I have a lot of thoughts, but I would say I'm even better at Q&A because if like I can hear your voice and hear your question, I can feel like where you're at. And then I know what you're really looking for from me. Like I know whether you're just a true football fan and you really want me to tell you like a cool football story, or if you're really like, man, I'm trying to figure out how my life can relate to this question that you experienced this thing in football. 'Cause I need a little inspiration or I need a little something to make me feel better. and I'm like, oh, so this person needs this story, you know? And so it's like that kind of thing, right? So my curiosity, I would say I sit around, I would say this, and like, this is weird to say, I sit around and think about people and like way more than they realize, like way more than they realize. They have no idea. Like I sit around and I meditate or think about so many people in my life all the time. And it's like I'm thinking about where they might be in life. I'm thinking about what I know they've kind of experienced here recently. Where might they be? What might they be feeling? Like I'm always playing that outta my head. So I think that's curiosity first.

You've mentioned your family a number of times, and I know how important they are to you. In your language, what does it mean to be a great father? What does it mean to be a great husband?

I would probably be more built on leadership by example is one, consistency is two, because I truly believe, I think sometimes to me when you look at it, I've heard this said before and it's one of my favorite things to say, but it's like the reality of when you're in a position of leadership, which is what being a father is, and even in your home, you and your wife, y'all are equal in positions of leadership with each other. We're on the same team, so we're all trying to accomplish the same things. That's usually my usual talk to my wife when I get along. I'm like, well, hold on one second. We're all going the same direction, right? Oh, let's— how do we help each other go that direction? Let's just do that. Let's not get into who's right or wrong. That's usually what we have to get to. But what I mean by that is, so to me, you can teach what you know, but you'll only ever reproduce or replicate who you are. And so that's what I believe is that, yes, there is a version of me teaching, but I walk in and I think it's Owen Wilson in a movie, Me and Dupree. He's talking to this school of kids and he gives this talk and he's this, can't get it together guy, but he gives this speech about whatever it is, this principle in life. And at the end he says, now some of you got that. And he's like, and then some of you, one day it's just going to poof. You're going to get it. And in your time, when your spaceship's ready, you'll take off. And you'll get what I just said. And that's how I think of what I know. I don't think that I have all the answers. I don't think that someone needs to hear what I have to say. But I do think with my kids, my family, people that I have a chance to mentor or lead or just be a friend to, there's a lot of things that I'm going to say or hope that I pour into them. And sometimes it's the right time for them to hear it, and sometimes it may take a while for them to get it. And that's okay. Like, I'm not here to act like I have all the answers, but I do think it's my job to make sure that I tell you the things that I think were important to me and who— how I got to where I'm at. And maybe through depression at times, through anxiety at times, these are the things that I kind of wish somebody would have said to me, or these are kind of the things that I wish I'd have felt. Like, when I look back over my career, I think of like, man, I wish I could have played this game without that anxiety. I could wish I could have like had this part of my career where I didn't think I was a failure and I would have played so much better. But the reality was, is I know I had to go through all those journeys to be what I need to be for people around me.

Yeah. What percentage of all the games in the— just say the NFL for right now— did you play free? And what percentage of the games did you play with anxiety?

Oh man, way more with anxiety. I mean, it's not even close. I would say, like, you know, Sean and I talked about this a lot.

Sean McVay.

Sean McVay and I talked about this a lot. I think Sean McVay is one of the more special leaders I've ever been around. When it comes to really bringing stuff out of people and the ability to communicate a message. And we became instant friends the second we met each other because we realized both of us kind of can't sit still and we have to kind of be doing that thing. And I would say, like, there's times when it's like people may see— they'd watch a game and it's like I'm wearing sleeves or I have a visor or my feet are spatted, whatever it may be. Sometimes I realized I had to dress up like Superman to tell myself that I was Superman and to not be— because I think less before I had kids, before I had obligations and people that I feel like I can't let down. More anxiety once I had a family and once I had kids. Oh, that's surprising.

Yeah.

Now I feel like I've got all these priorities that I've got to be this warrior for. It's not just like— I once had this quote that was famous when I was protecting Andy Dalton and I got thrown out of a game because a guy hit him late and I went after the guy and I said, I have two contracts in my life, with my wife and with my quarterback. I protect both of them. And that was like how I lived life prior to kids, is like, that's literally what I sign up to do. You will never touch them. And like, I'll protect them at all cost. And so as you added more things to that and as there's more people that like I'm in charge of, if you want to call it that, or they feel I'm responsible for, all the anxieties played more pressure on me.

Wow. So being a parent has changed the way you competed?

Oh, massive. Led to me retiring, really.

Tell me more.

So 2020, we're playing the Seattle Seahawks. I think we're 7-3 at home.

And, uh, the COVID year.

COVID year.

Yeah, quiet stadium.

Yep. Family and kids and everybody can't be there because of so far, you know, with LA rules and restrictions. And so blow out my knee. And that had been after, you know, my daughter Sarah had now entered that age old enough, like 10 and over, where it started to become like, I'm scared Daddy's not gonna be okay when he's out there on the field, you know? Like, she started to have this anxiousness about it. Somebody's built on anxiousness, like, obviously I'm empathetic, like, I'm gonna feel that to a really deep level. That happens, and I'm like, she's rocked by I come back, I set on this mission. I tore my PCL and MCL, and I'm like, in 8 weeks we'll be in the playoffs because we have good enough record, we should make the playoffs. If this team makes the playoffs, I'm gonna be back. I make this promise to the guys every day I go there. The guys are so excited. I'm the oldest guy by far that, you know, Big Whit's coming back for the playoffs. So I go on this mission to come back, probably foolishly, because I wasn't really as healthy as I probably should have been. I come back We go to Seattle. Ironically enough, my next game is against Seattle, and I make it back in 8 weeks to the playoffs. We win in Seattle. Really amazing moment, emotional moment for me. My family gets to come because at this point it's a little bit of— some people can come. And then we end up losing the next week to the Packers. But the reality is I make it back, go through that next season, and I realize that it's starting to affect her. Like, she's just— she now, after she's seen that, and she was already anxious anxious. Now she's sitting there in the suite and can barely watch and can barely like, you know, because she's just, I just want Dad to be okay after the game. And she'd say stuff like that. It was no longer like, hope you win. It was like, I'll be there for you when you're okay after the game, you know, that type stuff. And so that was when I really started to say, all right, that's enough. Like, I'm good. Like, if she's anxious, I'm already anxious. I don't want her anxious. So that's when I really kind of made my decision. This is going to be my last year. Now granted, I was also 40. I was the oldest left tackle in NFL history that season. So really cool accomplishment, but— and it was something I'd set out to do, but I knew then, it's like, all right, I made this goal to do this years back, but I've done everything I can do and I've accomplished the goal that I had.

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So am I doing this for me now, or like, is it better for me to go lead my family and figure out the next walk of life? And that's really like— she didn't push me to it, but she helped me realize, all right, now you've accomplished your personal goals. Like, anything after this is just about chasing money or chasing things that like really don't mean that much to you. And then it all fell into place that we make this playoff run, and I win Walter Payton Man of the Year, and I win the Super Bowl. And I have the epic moment that went viral with all of them on the ground, that NFL Films caught of me telling them, "That was Daddy's last game, and, like, I'm with you guys now." You know, and that's what it's about. And that was a really cool, special moment. So the anxiousness of her made me alert to something going on in me, and it helped me find, like, "All right, when you were 34 and you had a patella injury, you told yourself if you got through that patella injury, you were gonna chase this chance to be the oldest tackle to ever play because you thought you could do it. You did it. Now who are you playing for? And it's like, you know what, nobody. So there's nothing left to accomplish or nothing left to prove. And then all these things happen. And so right there in that moment, that was the first time my kids ever heard I'm done.

What was the emotions that just came up for you just a few seconds ago? Um, did you feel it? Yeah.

I mean, proud was one, just because I still will always cherish that moment sitting with them on that field, because the coolest thing was I wasn't even worried about celebrating winning. It was like the meditation easiness came over me and I just was like, you know what? Let's all sit in a circle for a second, which is like the weirdest thing you'd think after winning a Super Bowl. Yeah. I'm like, kids, everybody let's get on the ground. Let's sit in a circle and let's talk for a second and just like be with dad in this moment. I'm watching confetti fall and I'm like, I want to sit with them in a circle and tell them like, thank you for being at all these games and supporting dad along the way. And the wild part about that is, is like, which they'll one day understand, I was actually releasing my anxiousness of playing a game that I can't control all scenarios and I'm built to never let anybody down. So I'm gonna let people down. That's just the truth of playing sports, the truth of being a higher earner, the truth of competing at a high level. Whatever you do in life, you're going to fail. But I hated failing people. So you just gave me a chance with the perfect ending with my family to walk away from ever failing anyone again in that sense. That's awesome. I'm so relieved. So it's like that almost gave me my out. To like, hey, I'm just gonna go love you guys. Like, I'm not gonna have to worry about whether I'm failing everyone with my body, with everything else. It gave me this release.

Wow. Two boys and two girls?

Yeah.

Do they play sport?

Yeah, they all play.

And if you could speak to parents based on what you know about elite sport and what you now understand about youth sport, how would you guide parents?

Man, I think that there's, you know, to what I spoke to earlier, there's this healthy blend and balance of teaching them the principles of how to compete and be their best version. Like, do they want to wake up and become the best version of themselves every day? Them, not you. Do they want to become the best version of themselves? If they want that, how can you meet them somewhere to help provide it, but also give them the guidance of your real task is to make sure that they don't get imbalanced. Your real task is to make sure they keep some balance in who they are as a person. And if they're working so hard, like we make it about the hours they throw or the hours they spend in travel ball, but it's really about, are you starting to see signs that that's taken away from one quality in their life or some ability in them or physically or whatever it may be? Your job is to actually, if you're actually truly there in support and a support system is to support, all right, where can I help them with the imbalances they have? This is where we need to pull back. This is where they need to lean in. I'm going to help them find this healthy balance where they're happy and they're chasing success and they're enjoying chasing that success because one day it's not going to be fun. That's the reality. When you hear these guys talk about it, it's like, I don't care if it's Tom Brady or Kobe, whoever it was, yeah, they had fun in the things that it led to, but they were living in this spot that's a little bit of darkness of chasing that version of themselves. That you live in some darkness when you're going to do that. And so one day they're going to live in that. You don't want them to live in that for 20 years. So like, while they don't have to live in it, help them not live in the dark in that chase. Help them hear why they're special other than just the sport they play in, why it's so important that they have values that are bigger than just the sport they play in. Because the hard thing they don't want to hear is that most of those kids have it or they don't, and it's absolutely nothing you're going to do about it or them. But the greatest thing they can walk away with it from— healthy habits, consistency, like how to be a consistent human, how to have a healthy value in who they are when they compete and whether they win or lose. Like, I'm not trying to become tough by saying I'm the same person whether I won or lost because of my process. I'm trying to say that if I told you at 8 AM on Monday to my yoga teacher, I'm gonna be in the studio with you, and on Sunday, it doesn't matter if I get blown out 42 to nothing or I win 42 to nothing, even if I went to celebrate or I didn't go to celebrate and I was miserable, I'm gonna show up. Teach them how to show up. Teach them how to have healthy habits. Teach them how to live within the confines of what does it mean to wake up every day and chase a better version of yourself and chase happiness. And like, that's the greatest opportunity you have. And that's the only thing that really matters because the rest of it is completely out of our control.

Yeah. What a great model. What are some of the non-negotiable habits that you've clearly established in your life?

I think one of the big ones that's probably been, you know, important to my life and my success goes all the way back to the story I was going to tell you. And we went on this tangent about talking to Al Michaels and Kirk Herbstreit and Draymond is the thing he told me.

Yeah, let's go right back to that.

Kirk Herbstreit told me. Me. He said, dude, I was a Cincinnati Bengals fan. Obviously Kirk's a huge Cincinnati Bengals fan, always has been. He goes, I've watched you. He goes, you're this big scary monster dude, and when your mouth opens and people see your face, you're the warmest, loving teddy bear they've ever met. And he's like, I would go do TV interviews. I was— how would you— because people will fall in love with you. And I was like, I've never heard anybody tell me that. And so I was like, okay, that literally like sold me to go do it. And that What I would say is, is it's the same thing I talk to my kids about all the time. I just had a run-in with my 13-year-old son because he is built like me with empathy and feeling and just who he is and how deeply thinks. And he'd been in a little bit of a rut at school just because it's a little bit of struggle. His brother's moving on to high school. He's not going to be with him anymore. There's a separation in his friend group now because they're all friends where he's going to be in 8th grade and they're going to be in high school. And so it just kind of feels like this last semester has been a little tough for him, kind of realizing that a little bit. So there's been a little bit of a, I don't care in his personality. But one of the things we talked about for a long time yesterday, and all of my kids know this, like the number one thing our family, we care about, my wife and I, like, remember that like the greatest thing you leave people with is how you make them feel. And like, that is what you actually do control. And that is what's really important. Is that how you make people feel matters. And regardless of how it goes for you or for them or for anything, what are the feelings that you want to leave people with when you walk out of a room or walk out of an encounter or relationship, whatever it may be? You don't have to have an equal representation of what you thought happened or how it happened, but you do have some responsibility in how you made them feel. And I think to us, that's super important. So my thing was leaning into him of like, your teachers, the people that you're around at your school, like, how are you making them feel? Like, do your teachers feel like you're a quitter? Do they feel like you're not trying? Do they feel like they're— are they feeling like they're getting the best version of you? Like, make sure you go have a conversation with them and clear up where you've been, like how things have kind of been, and now you— this is where you want to get to.

You introduced— you kind of slipped in the dark side of sport, of elite sport, and the dark side the dark side of getting better. And I hear this thing that you're doing. It's like, let's go above the line and below the line. Like below the line, it's dark, and above the line, it's light. You're spending a lot of your time in framing to help keep things above the line, 'cause you know the dark side is there.

Yep.

And if you are gonna lean into knowing what you're capable of, you do need to go into that territory too. And it sounds like the age of innocence you're trying to extend and you're also helping your sons and daughters to elevate themselves, to realize that they are contributing factors to other people. So stay up, you know, stay in the light side of it. It sounds like that brings me to the last coach, Sean McVay. Mm, let's do it.

So I was somebody who lived in the dark probably my entire athletic career. I meet Sean McVay, the energy and the pillars, and you can listen to me talking, you can understand why I gravitated to that immediately. We gravitate each other, and he was somebody that his whole message his first year there was, "Never fear failure. Always just fear regret. Always shoot your shot. You will fail. A setback is nothing but an opportunity for a really cool comeback." Like, that's all it is. You think of how I'm built, like, every failure's end of the world. So I always say this, like, in an emotional way, like, Sean McVay brought me into the light. So when you hear me talk, when you hear me say these things, people will go, man, dude, have you been this leader your whole life? Heck no. Have I had some of those qualities? Yes. But I always was built in, I had to live in the dark and I wasn't worthy of the light to be good. Sean McVay helped me realize that because I work hard, because I devote myself to this, you deserve the light, dude. And people actually will be brought to the light if you'll open your mouth and tell them more about your story and what you've been through.

So where do you feel that when you say it?

Ah, everywhere.

Like where?

Deep in my chest, in my heart. Like he actually created this— no, like I'm worthy in me.

But I just want to know how you feel it.

I feel it in every bone of my body. Like I feel like mentally how I am wired— I mean, people take medication for depression, whatever it may be. That was my medication. Like, I don't know why, you know, God felt this was the moment for me to meet this person in my life, but he did. And that led to, you know, regardless of our ups and downs from there, that led to me seeing this light version.

And I'm more interested in like, what are you doing with the emotions you have? Because I can feel it. Yeah, I can sense it. And I think you're trying to contain it. But I'm not sure right now.

Like, yeah, right now for sure.

Yeah. So tell me, just tell me more about that piece right there, because what a gift he gave you. Oh, it's inside of you. You feel, I think this is a love for him and appreciation for him. I think, I'm not sure, but you're containing it for some reason.

And well, I just, I feel like that's the emotional tough guy side, but it's like one of those things that I look at from when I got here in 2017. Like, I think people will probably say like, man, you were a Bengal for 11 years, like we hear you talk about the Rams a lot and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's really more about— it's— I have the same appreciation for all those years, but a lot of those years were built me personally just living in this— I wanted to be in the light, I want to be a leader, I want to be all these things, but I don't ever feel I'm worthy for them. So I just live in the dark and like punish myself and work harder and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's how I live my life. Whereas when I became a Ram and I met Sean and he ingrained these thoughts of like, you belong and you're worthy, and setbacks are just opportunities for comebacks, and like, these are the processes. Now you think of like how much impact Nick had on me with the process. Now you're building this process of positivity. And I'm like, wait, a process of positivity? Like a process of believing you can do something? Like, I never did that. I always believed, tell me I couldn't do it, I'll do it. Like, I always believed like, you're not worthy enough to do it, so you've got to work harder than the person next to you to be able to do like there was a reason I'd never worked out at a facility with other athletes my entire career until I got to Los Angeles, because I wanted to be in the dark on what other people are doing and feel like, wow, I can sit here in my garage and I can push myself so far with the unknown of what you're doing that I'll be in better shape than you. And so that's how I was built.

You didn't do team workouts?

I mean, I went to the facility once we started OTAs, but like truly when you're working in the offseason, I never trained facilities. I never worked out with other guys because I just wanted to push myself where I didn't know anything because I felt like that was the best way. So I meet Sean, all that changes. Then it starts to become— think about what happens after that. So after '17, we have this awesome year, huge turnaround. We lose in the playoffs to the Falcons. That makes me 0-7 in the playoffs in NFL. I think that was the record at the time in NFL history, the worst winning percentage ever. So makes me 0-7 in the playoffs.

And you're typically on an NFL team, you're likely the second highest paid person on the field.

Yeah, somewhere in there.

Somewhere in there.

So now, as far as NFL history goes, of players who've made the playoffs and lost, I'm right there as number one in losing the most with the highest percentage. So the next year though, 2018, now you spoke all this life to me. I am this person who's lived this life the way I've lived it. The fires happen in '18, we get displaced and have to go, you know, out of our homes. And we get out of our homes for 2 weeks. We play Seattle, we win. We're supposed to go to Mexico City to play the Chiefs. Something's wrong with the field there. We go to Colorado to train. Our whole entire team is going through absolute chaos because our families are out of their homes. I've never experienced something like that, except for I have. My senior year at LSU was Hurricane Katrina. And so I had seen the experience, I'd been through it. So there's this moment that happens. There's a shooting at Borderline Bar in our area. The fires happen. We're sitting in a meeting. They're bringing all these people in here trying to explain what happened with this shooting in this local area right close to us. There's the fires that are removing us. Now we're having to move out of our houses. And I stand up and start talking. And I don't know how many times I've done this in my career, but I'm just standing up talking to the whole team. Leadership's in there from Kevin Dimov, all those people. About just in these moments, like, don't overthink, don't over, like, process. Like, you don't have to be perfect, you have to be present. Like, just go do something. You want to go sit with somebody at the hospital, go sit beside them. You don't have to say a word to them, just sit there with them if that makes you feel better. If you want to donate some money, you want to donate your time, you want to give them something, whatever it may be. When I was in through Hurricane Katrina, I met LSU fans who were like, hey man, I lost everything I ever had, but I kept this ticket, and for 3 hours I get to watch you guys play on Saturdays, and it's the greatest 3 hours of my life because because everything else is awful and I've lost everything, but you guys give me this relief away from it. So I'm sharing these stories and just telling them, whatever it is in your heart, just do it. Don't think about it, do it. And I give them the speech about that and I sit down and that became the beginning. And then it's like from there, it's like, all right, wait a minute. All the feedback was like, dude, they do want to hear from me. They do want me to lead them. They do want me to speak to them. And then that just grew and grew and grew and grew. To where when I sit down and I talk about Walter Payton Man of the Year, I don't talk about like this pride that I raised money or got this trophy. The coolest moment of Walter Payton Man of the Year was when I sat down and got told I was nominated. I sat down, they showed me a map of Los Angeles, and this makes me emotional to say, but there's 40-something places, and they've created a video for every place, and it encompasses like all of LA. And it's all these people going, dude, thanks for coming here. Thanks for what you did. And you start to realize like, whoa, in 5 years, like you've been to all these places and you've had this kind of impact on people. And like, I never would've thought I was worthy of making an impact on people. That makes sense. And so that is what was like the greatest part of that because you realize, man, how many people that you're like, I look at it like when I walk in a room or on a team I'm trying to touch as many people as I can, like hug, love, dab, whatever. Like, I just want to walk in a room, make sure I touch everybody. And then when you look at a city as big as Los Angeles and you start going like, whoa, we've been able— like Molly and I on the Rams community team, like, we've been able to be all these places in 5 years. Like, this is cool. How cool is this to be a part of this?

You're so emotional. I, I know that you're working to keep it all in right now. How do you hope the next generation of men will do emotion?

I think it's really important that you are willing to share them. I think for me, I think it was something that was probably harder when I was younger because it always felt like weakness. It's less now. Like, I've had more moments that I've cried in front of people or been emotional ever in the last few years. And so I think as you get older, you just learn to like not care about that part of it as much as when it's coming from a place of being sincere and real.

I don't think it's age. I think it's growth. Oh yeah, you could be an old fool, you know, and but if you travel the path of wisdom, you know, you end up at some point going, oh yeah, like it's actually really fantastic what happens when you work from the emotional, you know, amazing.

I think you actually speak with more clarity and conviction. And, and also to think of it as like I say this in sports all the time, right? Like think of how these things relate when you really talk about like my boys ask me, hey Dad, how am I going to get better X, Y, and Z? And I'm always like, the sooner you release the restriction of failing and just go full speed and fail, then you'll be able to figure out and feel what full-speed failure feels like. And then you can adjust, right? So it's the same concept. Like, if you just allow yourself to release your emotions, then you'll be able to get them out and figure out what you need to do with those feelings. And that's the hardest thing for people to like do is to just trust. It's like a trust fall. It's just to trust. You can just fall, right? Sean McVay and I, we talk about this all the time. What comes first, vulnerability or trust? It's vulnerability. And every time I go speak at a group of people, I'll say, everyone raise your hand who believes vulnerability or trust. I'm going to name them. You tell me. And then I go, okay, now a lot of people will say it's trust. You trust somebody and then you decide to be vulnerable with them. Okay, cool. Y'all all came here, right? Yes. Okay. You all travel to be here? Okay. Can each one of you tell me the name of the pilot who flew the plane you got here with? Uh, no idea. Okay. How about the taxi driver or maybe the Uber driver? Do you know their name? I'd have to go look at my app. Okay. So did you trust them and then you got in the car, or were you vulnerable and now you trust that person? Right? Like, that is the reality. Like, being vulnerable first which is releasing emotion, going full speed, is how you develop trust. And so if you look in your life, the people that you're actually close with are the people you found a way to tell them that thing you'd tell nobody else, or to release that emotion you would never release to anybody else. And then guess what you get to do by that? You create a circle. Like, I'm in a circle of guys that I don't even know personally that— I know Jake Glaser had an article written about this, but there's a bunch of us that are on a text chain together and Jay Glazer was on the pod a while back. Yeah. And we have this text chain with Phelps and The Rock and all these people. Some of them I've met, but some of them I'm close with and some I don't have no idea. But it's like this chain where everyone's been vulnerable at some point. So now we all just are vulnerable with each other and it's like, wait, we don't even hardly know each other that well. But in this circle we've been vulnerable with one another. So now we trust one another. And so it's like, that's an amazing thing. And it's something that I think is really powerful. You know, and my wife tells me this all the time. You, you alluded to this earlier about how you think about yourself and like how I've kind of always lived. And I share this, and it's cool because I've shared it with Sean McVay at times that in his career we felt down, that he's let the team down, or different friends of mine who are going through something and they feel like they've let their wife down, their family down, or whatever. But my wife would always tell me when I have these moments where I'd come home and be like, man, you know, I failed, like I'm gonna get fired, you know, like I do this on Thursday Night Football. I'll come off the set and I'll text her and be like, they're gonna fire me tomorrow, you know? And she's like, babe, you're so good, like, what are you talking about? But she'll always— like, when she realizes that I've gone too far, or in front of the kids I'll say I need to get in shape or I need to do whatever, she'll always be like, stop. She'll be like, don't talk about my husband like that. And it's like, that makes me emotional. But I've had to say that to guys in life, and it's like, it's amazing how hard it hits them because it's like No, no, no. Like, let me tell you what I see in you. Like, I've heard Sean say this earlier this year about players, but it's the four greatest words you can say to somebody are, I believe in you. I look at it like it's the flip side of that. When somebody doesn't believe in themselves, it's not just telling them that you believe in them. Tell them what you see in them. Like, that's the most powerful thing you can actually tell somebody. It's like, no, no, no, no. Stop talking about how you're talking. Let me see. Let me tell you what I see in you. And that gives them this, whoa, so there's a different way to see myself.

Andrew, what a gift you are to others in your life and what a gift you are to our community to share the darker side that you have gone through and maybe still flirt with and are working through and the hope you have for yourself and others to be the best version of yourself and to help people do the same. Tremendous gift. And it is not lost on me why you have had so much success. You have traveled emotionally the distance to depth and heights to be able to have the clarity that you have. I think you're incredibly open to ideas and experiences. You are just neurotic enough to go to the edges. You are not agreeable for the sake of being agreeable. Like, you think about things. You also are likely now such a positive influence on other people that they gravitate to you. And so you take all of that with the interest in becoming your very best and the sharp edges that it's required and the kind of curvature of the round curves. Like, you got a fullness to you that I'm rooting for you and your family. And so thank you for sharing you and your path in the hopes of making our community better.

I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much for letting me come here.

Yeah. Next time on Finding Mastery, we're back with another Ask Me Anything episode. You brought thoughtful, honest questions about performance, relationships, and navigating the challenges of everyday life. And once again, Mike sits down with Momentous CEO and former NFL player Jeff Byers to explore them together. From navigating big life transitions, creating a sense of community, and defining purpose when you're not quite sure what's next, this conversation offers practical ways to move forward with more clarity and intention. Join us Wednesday, May 6th at 9:00 AM Pacific, only on Finding Mastery. All right. Thank you so much for diving into another episode of Finding Mastery with us. Our team loves creating this podcast and sharing these conversations with you. We really appreciate you being part of this community. And if you're enjoying the show, the easiest no-cost way to support is to hit the subscribe or follow button wherever you're listening. Also, if you haven't already, please consider dropping us a review on Apple or Spotify. We are incredibly grateful for the support and feedback. If you're looking for even more insights, we have a newsletter we send out every Wednesday. Punch over to findingmastery.com/newsletter to sign up. The show wouldn't be possible without our sponsors, and we take our recommendations seriously, and the team is very thoughtful about making sure we love and enjoy endorse every product you hear on the show. If you want to check out any of our sponsor offers you heard about in this episode, you can find those deals at findingmastery.com/sponsors. And remember, no one does it alone. The door here at Finding Mastery is always open to those looking to explore the edges and the reaches of their potential so that they can help others do the same. So join our community, share your favorite episode with a friend, and let us know how we can continue to show up for you. Lastly, as a quick reminder, information in this podcast and from any material on the Finding Mastery website and social channels is for information purposes only. If you're looking for meaningful support, which we all need, one of the best things you can do is to talk to a licensed professional. So seek assistance from your healthcare providers. Again, a sincere sincere thank you for listening. Until next episode, be well, think well, keep exploring.

Come on.