The Psychology of Youth Sports | AMA Victoria Garrick Browne and Dr Michael Gervais

How do we help young people build an identity rooted in who they are rather than solely in what they do or how they perform? And how can parents, coaches, and mentors start those conversations before a crisis or transition occurs? Wow.

That is a parent that's really doing the work. What questions are tugging at you right now? And how might exploring the answers to those questions help unlock your potential?

Actually, you once told me something that lives rent-free in my brain.

Rent-free, perfect.

And it's actually a great answer to this question too, which is, Welcome back, or welcome to a special episode of the Finding Mastery Podcast.

I am your host, Dr. Michael Gervais, and this week we're turning the microphone around again. And instead of diving into mastery through the minds of our remarkable guests, we are going straight to you for another Ask Me Anything episode.

How can we tell the difference between healthy competitiveness and unhealthy pressure? What are some warning signs that a young athlete may be experiencing burnout? Will an open, transparent, honest sharing moment about the challenges and pressures of competing end up costing me?

How about it? What do you think? You have once again submitted really deep and thoughtful and sometimes vulnerable questions about life and performance and relationships and how to navigate the complexities of our human experience. Now, in this episode, we have the help of Forbes 30 Under 30 recipient, mental health advocate, creator, podcast host, and speaker Victoria Garrick Brown. All offer insights and perspectives designed to help us all think a little differently, to hopefully live a little better. The thought that they over there have it all together and I over here by myself don't, it's not honest, but it feels that way. And that's the, I think, the major anecdote for imposter syndrome.

I don't like fake it till you make it. I don't like that, that advice.

That idea will not hold. As you listen, I hope that you'll pay attention to the questions that resonate most strongly with you. So with that, let's jump into your questions, our reflections, and an exploration of what matters most right here on Finding Mastery. Victoria, it is great to be with you. This is the first time we've done an AMA, and I'm so excited to do it with you.

I'm so excited. I ask you hundreds of questions all the time, always. So it's—

On your podcast.

Perfect that I'm here to now ask questions and help with your audience.

I know, it's so fun.

Get this access to you. So thanks for having me.

Yeah, and it's been great to be able to watch what you've done over the years. And for our community that might not be familiar with you, you've got this really thoughtful voice about, well, I think it began with mental health and athletics because of your experience of privately struggling. And you've turned the deep work that you've done to better understand yourself as a gift for Millions. And so I'm stoked to do this with you. You're really thoughtful. You're right on the kind of the buzz of what's cool and you're helping me out in that way. So thank you again for being here.

I appreciate it. Of course. I'm so happy to be here. And, you know, the questions that your audience submitted are really amazing. And I think we're going to get into a lot of fantastic stuff today. I'm excited to hear what you have to say and to talk about this. So if you're ready, we should dive in. Let's go.

Okay.

So this first question comes from James. As someone who has spent a career in public service and leadership, I've seen how closely identity becomes tied to performance and purpose, whether in athletics, first responder professions, or other high performance environments. Many people struggle when their role, uniform, or title begins to change or comes to an end. So my question is, how do we help young people build an identity rooted in who they are rather than solely in what they do or how they perform? And how can parents, coaches, and mentors start those conversations before a when a crisis or transition occurs?

I mean, first order of business, that's a thoughtful question, isn't it?

Yeah.

Like, our community's really trying to understand. They're really smart. And that's a super thoughtful question, so it doesn't surprise me. I know you have a lot to say about this as well, so I'll take a first pass at it, and then I do want to get your thoughts on it. The whole conversation about identity can be really deep, and then it can also kind of run along the surface. So let me start with the depth of it for just a minute. It begs the question, are you more than this bag of skin and bones? I think most people say, yeah, like, I am more than just my physical form. So, okay, if my identity is not just my physical form, like, what is it? Is it what I do? Is it how I think? Is it the performance standards that I'm able to express? Like, what is my identity? Is it my role? As a husband, as a father, as a student. Like, what is my identity? And if you go really rich at a deeper level, it is one of the foundational questions that the Zen traditions have been struggling with for like 2,600 years. Who am I? What am I? And that question is still relevant today, to sit with yourself and to answer that question. So just about any answer I could formulate here would do in service to the actual process of sitting with that question, who am I? And what ends up happening, whether you're journaling or you're having a conversation with somebody of wisdom, you know, could be a wise woman, wise man, a therapist, like, it could be a lot of different forms, or you are sitting and meditating and doing mindfulness work, that question will carry you.. So that's the process I would suggest investing in. And then if the question is about a young kid, the way that you show up with your kid and the questions you ask and the questions you don't ask and what you're asking about and what you're not asking about are all informing and shaping identity. And left to— let's just talk about the US for a minute— left to the culture of the US, we are reflexively shaping by the strength of our character, a performance-based identity. You are what you do, how well you do it, next to the person that you're doing it with, or against in some cases, I guess. So that's a really tricky narrative. If you just leave it up to the own devices, you'll develop a performance-based identity. And this is why you remember as an elite athlete, sometimes you would go on the court and you'd be really nervous. Do you remember those times your heart was pounding and like, it just felt like you're a little bit out of your body, let's say?

Every time I touched a volleyball for 4 years in college.

On game day or practice?

Definitely on game day and oftentimes at practice. Actually, you once told me something that lives rent-free in my brain.

Rent-free, perfect.

And it's actually a great answer to this question too, which is you said something to the effect of, if your identity is tied to your sport, every time you step up to the plate, it feels like your life's at stake.

That's it.

And I was like, run free. My life's at stake when I go to serve a volleyball. That pressure and that false sense of this fight or flight, like, of course I'm gonna have a miserable time doing the thing that I love if I'm giving it that value and that weight. When the reality is, if I miss my serve, the world's not gonna fall down.

But it feels that way.

Yeah.

It feels like if your identity is completely fused with what you do and you do that thing poorly, it's as if your identity has died. Your sense of self has died. Intellectually, right now, over a glass of tea and a good conversation, we understand, like, that's wild. But then when you're in the throes of it, that part of our brain that is designed for fight, flight, freeze, submit— sometimes we don't talk about the submit function very well— that it just kind of kicks in. And so you're right on the pulse. Like, if you do not do the work on Who am I? The Western world is going to hand you, you are what you do and how well you do it. That's a performance-based identity. And I think if we could take a step further on that Rent Free idea, that what we want to do is decouple who am I from what I do. And then if you could take it a step further and you say, well, what am I in service of? Like, what is my purpose? So from a performance-based identity to a purpose-based identity would be the thing. If I'm a parent or a coach, I'm trying to help the young people in my life know who they are based on their values, based on the words they choose, the actions they take, you know, the character that they're building. Be great as a performer, as a competitor. That's cool. It's a part, but it's not all. And then ask the questions like, what excites you the most outside of ball? What excites you the most outside of sport? And, and then I'll do one last little note on this for, for parents is on the car ride home, like the last thing, my, my son is 17. I say this as if I'm, I do it, you know, absolutely in a great way. But I, I, I make all my, all the mistakes that you would imagine I would make is that, but the last thing I wanna talk about is what he just did during practice. I wanna talk about all the other things. I wanna put the spotlight on how was his day, you know, what do you want for dinner? Um, what was hard today? What was challenging today? And if he wants to talk about ball, he's, he's in volleyball. If he wants to talk about it, great. Like I'm there to, to process it with him. But, 'cause sometimes it's hard.

Yeah.

Practice and whatever. It's hard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when you hear some of that, you bring up a good point with this just conversation between parent and child after sporting event, right? And you know, to James's question about how do parents, coaches, and mentors kind of help, um, before this crisis happens, I do think it's also being wary of the way that you are creating an identity for your child. I can, totally like sum up the identity of me and my siblings growing up. And it was, you know, he's the golfer, she's the superstar, and he's our genius. And I never viewed myself as like, I'm gonna be the smart kid in the family. 'Cause like that role's taken. Like I'm not, I don't have one thing I excel at. I do many, like, and I love my parents and they're supporting us and I have such high self-esteem and confidence because of the way that they built us up and It, it helped create this sense of, oh, this is who I am. This is what's expected of me. And so I think for parents, you know, when you, when you show up to Thanksgiving and you bring your kids and the in-laws are there, like, how are you talking about your child? Cuz they're listening and they're noticing, oh, that's what mom and dad brag about. This makes them happy. I need to be good at this thing. So I think it's also making sure your child knows that. You love them and you're proud of them regardless of how they succeed on any court or arena.

And that needs to be hydrated. It needs to be over and over and over. Even though that you feel that way, you gotta say it a lot. 'Cause the world is conditioning, like, performance matters and how well I do things matters. And we're force-ranked since grade 3. Like, this is your grade and you know other people's grades. Like, there's a ranking. Based on your performance from scholastic and intellectual. The other thing is that I remember when I was a young kid, I grew up— surfing was the thing I enjoyed the most. And I had this reaction to saying I'm a surfer. It felt so like I loved it. It's what I spent most of my time thinking about. But I had this, like, that's not ever going to cut it for me. I don't think I've ever introduced my son as this is my son, he's a volleyball player. And I think that, like, I think it's been a nice gift to give him. So I would say even the way that you introduce your son or daughter to other people, they're also, to your point, they're listening to what you're saying about them. But how do you introduce them? Yeah, because you are building an identity.

Yeah. You know, and if we take this a step further and we focus on like the actual experience of one of these kids, you know, Megan wrote in and said, I'm an aunt of a 12-year-old boy. He loves to play team sports like basketball and football, but he seems to be struggling with dealing with his emotions. If he misses the ball, misses a tackle, or even an interception, he gets upset on the field. This usually manifests in hitting his head and/or helmet, or even sometimes breaking down into tears. His coaches have noticed and have tried to talk to him about it. He seems to deal with other frustrations in life in a much healthier way than he does sports-related performance. I think he might feel he's letting his teammates down, but maybe it's something else. I'm looking for any suggestions on how I can address this with him.

This is what I hear. Megan is probably really concerned. I mean, you know, hitting his head and, you know, like, that's pretty concerning. So there's this fine line between, okay, passion, he cares.

He's 12, by the way. After hearing the story, I was like, oh, this kid's 16. And I look back, 12, feeling this way.

I know. So there's a lot at stake. Of course, we can't really answer this question without knowing the full picture. But what is happening for this young boy at age 12 that he's having that type of response? I'll tell you a story, and I wonder if it kind of fits in with that narrative for, you know, Megan here, is that it was my first experience in pro hockey, and it was the second period, and the centerman turned over the puck right in front. It was like minutes to go, and it was a playoff game. Okay. I don't know. It was under a minute to go and he turned over the puck in front of our net and the defender picked it up, scooped it in and, you know, scored on us minutes ago with just the second period wrapping up. So it was like this deflation across the entire— we were playing at home, the entire, you know, arena and then the team and there was this deflated state. And I remember thinking, oh, this is going to be a tough one for him. And so I was about, I don't know, 6 athletes behind him as we're walking back into the locker room. And he was one of the first. He was toward the front of the line and he's walking back and he's got a clip. He's walking with a pace. And of course he's embarrassed, he's pissed, whatever is happening for him. And he goes into the locker room and the first thing that kind of met his ire was the, the, the Gatorade thing, flipped that thing upside down. Gatorade's all over the room. He smacks the cups. There's cups flying. Those little Dixie cups are flying. He's screaming. And I thought, oh, he needs to tell everybody that he understands, that he's pissed too. He was doing this little motion, if you will, to take care of himself because of course he cared. But the last thing he could handle in that moment was someone saying, Dude, what's wrong with you? Like, are you kidding me again? Or whatever it might have been. So he was creating all this animation so that somebody wouldn't pile on top of the intensity that he already felt. And I thought, this is a self-esteem saving mechanism. And at one level, some people in the room, the athletes were like, this guy, Jesus, like, get your stuff together. Like, this is not cool. That's not cool. And then I think others were like, oh, yeah, okay. Man, that's passion. Somewhere in between. But it was all machination so that nobody would come and pierce and poke at how raw he felt. So I go— I wonder if that's what's happening. And then the other thing I wonder is if this 12-year-old is, like, trying to figure out how to cope. And it's not about presenting a certain way, which is what that locker room story was about, but it's just a coping mechanism. There's a physicality to it. And I don't want to kind of bleed into a mental health thing yet, right? But when people cutting, for example, okay, this is not cutting. I'm not suggesting by any means that what's happening is cutting. But sometimes a mechanism when people cut is that their emotional pain is so great that they'll actually prefer physical pain because it relieves them from the emotional pain. So again, I'm drawing a pretty wide chasm between the two, but if he's hitting his head, there's an emotional turmoil that might be taking place, and he doesn't have a way to work it out. So he's doing something physical, maybe to relieve the emotional turmoil. So if I'm mom, in that case, I am like frontloading well before the next practice, well, like, for the rest of when that child is with me, like, I am frontloading all of the mechanisms where that child can feel safe, where they can feel seen outside of performance excellence or even performance period. And I am frontloading all of that So that when he turns over the puck or drops a ball or whatever, it's like moving that person from kind of a red flare to like an interested— like, Rome is not burning. Uh, this is fine. I'm learning.

Yeah.

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I like what you said about this boy possibly not having just the coping skills yet or emotional regulation tools to even know how to deal with the upsetness in himself to like miss the tackle. That at 12, you just, you need to be taught those things. Like if we think about what this kid knows about the world, he's 12. Like he doesn't know all the different ways you could respond to disappointment. So it's like, I wonder if the parents can help provide some of that language. You know, if I think about when I played D1 volleyball and I made a mistake, instead of being like, shoot, I missed that pass. Like, I suck. Like, I'm, I'm not good. I'd be like, okay, I missed that pass. That's a fact. Next time I'm gonna drop my shoulder and keep my platform steady and it should fix it. All right, next ball. And I would just try to talk factually about like, what did I learn? What can be better next time? And not add the judgment. I don't think a 12-year-old could do that, but it's—

Oh, I think a 12-year-old could.

Like, maybe.

Did someone teach you that?

Probably Nicole Davis, Dr. Nicole Davis.

Yeah. At a young age.

Yeah. Well, no, my freshman year of USC.

Yeah.

But I think that, you know, one, I think this boy could possibly learn some other ways to rebound from the situation. And two, I'd be curious, where is this being learned? Is this being seen when they watch NBA playoffs every night with dad and the favorite player is acting this way? Are the parents really hard on themselves when they make mistakes? You know, sometimes I'll see parents who like, you know, water is spilled and it's like the biggest thing that water has been spilt. And so then kids are like pre-reacting to that. This person said that they're an aunt, so I'm like, maybe they can, who knows? But sometimes kids learn this from watching their parents not actually be able to regulate their own emotions. So then the kids mimic the parents' dysregulation.

It's a really good point, Victoria, because he might just be performing that he cares and not be in any type of turmoil, not, might not have this internal agitation, but he thinks that that's what the cool kids do on TV, or that's what the parents do. But he, you know, so we should obviously, obviously create some space for, for that as well. But before we take this any further, let me stay on the mental health thing for just a moment. For the parents and coaches that are listening, what guidance would you have for them if a kid is struggling with anxiety or depression? And the reason I'm asking you that is because I know you understand it.

Mm-hmm.

Can you maybe share a little bit of your story and your history growing up and then, and then provide some guidance if you would?

Yeah.

I have been an athlete my whole life, um, played multiple sports and then narrowed in on volleyball being the sport for me and was a recruited walk-on to the USC indoor women's volleyball team. And I played on that team from 2015 to 2019. And it is still crazy for me to look back and think, oh, I did 4 years of that because I remember after my freshman year, it was so hard. I had such heightened performance anxiety. I was so stressed. The pressure was unbearable at times. And I was like, there's no way I can endure this for 4 years. But then fortunately, my love of the sport was, so strong and powerful that I did pretty much every single thing I could do to figure out how to make this work. That included, you know, seeking help and working with a school counselor, mentorship, reading so many books. Mindset by Carol Dweck, I loved. The Inner Game of Tennis by Timothy Galloway, I loved. The podcast— I mean, I was in, yeah, weekly therapy, got on antidepressants. I went through a lot, and I did take a mental health break in between my junior and senior season. But I struggled a lot, and I was constantly balancing and navigating my love for the sport. I cannot imagine quitting. I cannot imagine walking away from something I've put so many years of my life into. And I also am not enjoying it, and I'm crying, and I'm depressed, and I'm really in a dark place. And how do I cope?

Was the anxiety, depression— what was it more? If they're both the same coin but on opposite sides?

I feel like the depression was a result of the performance anxiety that was not treated. And eventually after being so wired and so anxious and so just exhausted by that, you can't help but fall into a state of numbness because I feel like my body didn't have any more anxieties—

It's on fight, flight, run! Yeah, yeah. Fight, fly, flight, flight, flight, run, run, run.

Then it became like, "I'm literally numb." So yeah, I feel like just a major depressive episode is what followed the performance anxiety.

Was it more on the lonely side or more on the sad side?

Honestly, both. I definitely felt really isolated and alone at times.

Was it more on the lethargic side or kind of the flat side? And there's a subtle difference between those two. Like, I feel heavy or like I'm just— I am numb and flat.

I think it was numb and flat. And I'm a very enthusiastic, caring, talkative person. Yeah. So for me to be in like a, I don't care, hit me with a car, like, was shocking for my brain to compute, you know?

Have you ever talked about how bad it was? And I'm not asking you to talk about it if you haven't.

Yeah, and I'm so happy to talk about it. I definitely had a stretch in my— during one of my seasons with like just thinking of suicidal ideation. And I think the thing that I always describe to people is prior to this episode, I never understood why someone would be responsible for their life ending. And it was in this moment of time I was like, oh, I totally get it.

Yeah.

And that was crazy for me because I could see why someone would die by suicide, whereas now out of that place, I'm like, oh, I, I'm back to I can't understand it. We can help you. There's light at the end of the tunnel. Like, stick to the trust. Like, you're going to get out of that. So that's kind of how I would describe it.

Yeah. And to add a cool feature to this conversation is that you've taken that hard road and created The Hidden Opponent, which is a nonprofit organization that is in college campuses to help people that are struggling with the inner game and to provide tools and resources. Well done.

Thank you.

Really well done to take a thing. You are an emblem for what it means to have a purpose-based approach, a purpose-based identity, and to be in service of something far larger than you, and to try to muster your best to your abilities, people and resources that will help move this purpose forward. Mm-hmm. Well done. Thehiddenopponent.com.

Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, .org, and we have, uh, an Instagram page as well. But I mean, that could be helpful for Megan too, is, you know, we, work with high school athletes. We're slowly going down, even though our focus has been college, but really helping shape and create mental health leadership in student athletes so that we can then impact culture and make it more socially acceptable to be struggling with your mental health as an athlete. And then also really bridge the gap between your struggling and then the resources and the help that you need, which I guess brings me to your initial question of, you know, what would I advise to someone who's student or child is struggling with mental health, and I would say, I mean, the most important thing is ensuring that you create a space and a place where they feel like they can talk to you. I mean, that is like so number one because—

How?

Yeah. How do you do that? I feel like building a safe, close relationship with your child or this student.

How?

How, how do you do that?

How does your mom or dad? Try.

Yeah, I really feel like my parents were also my friends, and being judged is something no one loves experiencing. And when you're worried you're going to tell something to a parent and they're going to immediately judge you, or they're going to overpower your ability to have any space in this conversation by their emotions about it. So if you're like, well, I can't tell my mom I'm depressed because my mom will freak out and my mom will be worried sick and my mom won't sleep at night, and then now I have to worry about my mom and I don't even have the space for that because I am depressed, you know?

So, so I better keep it together. I think keep it private.

Yeah. I, I do think like there's something healthy about making sure your anxiety doesn't become your child's anxiety and that, wait, let, let me pause.

It will.

Yeah, it will.

It does.

Yeah.

We give what we have. Mm-hmm. If we have intolerance or frustration, anxiety, we give that. Mm-hmm. If we have love and benevolence and excitement and opportunity and whatever would give that. So same for me too.

Yeah.

You know, like I'm, there's no one immune from that.

And I don't have kids yet, but I could totally empathize with like, that's so human. My mom always says that to me. She's like, just wait till your kid's struggling.

Totally.

You think you're not gonna worry?

Yeah.

You know? So then, okay, can we find them the right support person that you as the parent trust? You love the credentials, you like this person, all, all that's there, and your child feels like they can trust them and they're getting the right type of support for their situation. And you're encouraging that and you're not judging. Judging it, and you are not making them feel badly that they need a therapist or a counselor.

I'm going to tell you one of my favorite moves. Like, when I was— so I don't see many athletes or folks right now, like maybe 8 a year at this point. But this was when I was early and I was seeing like, you know, 40, 50 clients a week. And it was like I was cutting my teeth for sure. I loved doing this. And I think just this initial question set or framing helped the athletes more than maybe I did in any sessions. A mom comes in with a young child. Let's say it's a— I'm thinking of a gymnast in this case. And it was mom and dad, actually, with a gymnast. And they were super respectful. They're really eager. They were struggling because their kid was struggling. So there's the 4 of us in the room. And this was, again, first 15 minutes of the conversation.. And so we're talking about the kid, and I'm asking the kid some questions and just kind of having a balance so we're not talking about this person that's not there. I go, oh, now here's the move. I go, oh, okay, I totally get it, guys. I go, I'm so happy you guys are here. I'll just make up a name. Joanna, this work is actually not for you. This is for your parents. And Joanna's eyes got big and she started crying. She goes, wait, It's not my fault. I said, no, you're doing great. Mom and Dad got some stuff to work on. We'll come get you in a little bit. We go in the lobby and just kind of hang out and there's books or whatever. Okay. So she goes out and I turn to Mom and Dad and I go, look, you're making her the patient. It's you guys. You're creating the ecosystem in this family. I said, you guys want to change, like, and grow? And they're like, yeah, of course. Okay, great. We're going to start with you guys. She's brilliant. She's figuring it out. She's going for it. She's the one that's taking risks. She's the one that's like, say, all right, there's nothing broken, but there's some work to do. Do you guys want to do the work? And they're like, yeah. Okay, good. So we do a little bit of work that session, bring her back in, and she's kind of like, well, what has just happened? And I said, look, as a family, we're all going to do some work here. And she's like, oh, okay, good. And she looks at her parents like, is this okay? Because I thought I was the one that was—

she's like, I could never call you guys out, but I knew it.

I knew it. You guys were, you know, and she And she felt broken. She felt like she was the patient and it was actually the unit, the system.

I'm glad those parents were receptive. I can think of parents that would be like, screw that, we're going to a different therapist that tells me I'm right and my daughter's wrong.

Uh-huh. Right. So yeah, good. Yeah. Let's, let's keep it moving. Speaking of that, Finding Mastery is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. If you've ever hired for a small business, you know the real cost isn't just the salary, it's the time that you lose when the fit is off. The momentum that stalls when that fit doesn't work. And that's the pressure of having to get it right while you're still running everything else. That's why I'm paying attention to LinkedIn Hiring Pro. It's built for the reality of hiring when you're operating lean. You describe the role in plain language, and then Hiring Pro helps you draft the job post, surface the right candidates, and then narrow to a shortlist without turning hiring into another full-time job. And when applications start coming in, it doesn't leave you buried in resumes. It streamlines screening. Including AI-powered interviews for initial conversations. How about that? So that you can spend less time searching and then more time connecting with the people who match what you need. With HiringPro, you can hire with confidence knowing you're getting the best talent for your business. In fact, those hiring with LinkedIn are 24% less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months when compared to their leading competitor. Join the 2.7 million small businesses using LinkedIn to hire. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com/mastery. Again, that's linkedin.com/mastery. Mastery. Terms and conditions apply. Finding Mastery is brought to you by AG1. Summer is here, at least for those of us in the Northern Hemisphere. You can just feel it though. Days are longer, pace picks up, and there's this sense of momentum that comes with the season. For me, that also means more travel. It's more early mornings, more late nights, and it's just really a schedule that isn't consistent as I'd like it to be. That's exactly when having a simple, reliable daily foundation, it matters. AG1 has been that foundation for me for over a decade now. One scoop in a glass of cold water in the morning, and I know I'm supporting my gut health, full stop, filling the nutrient gaps that are hard to cover through food alone. And what ends up happening is I'm giving my body what it needs to keep showing up, and that really matters to me. What I love about AG1 is that it doesn't ask a lot of me. It's one habit, one scoop, and it travels easily. The AG1 travel packs are something I genuinely rely on this time of the year. I throw a few in my bag before a trip and the routine stays intact wherever I am. If you haven't tried AG1 yet or you've been planning to think about getting back into it, now's a great time to start. Visit drinkag1.com/findingmastery to get an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 free in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription.. It's a $72 value. Again, that's drinkag1.com/findingmastery.

This next question actually comes from a school counselor. So this is from Peter who writes, I work with student athletes and their families. So that was a perfect example. I always remind them that the purpose of youth sports is to foster a healthy development of their child physically, mentally, emotionally, and socially. However, there are a number of individuals I work with who are under immense pressure to perfect their craft to the point where I'm worried they're on the path to burnout before they even turn 16. Here's my twofold question: how can we tell the difference between healthy competitiveness and unhealthy pressure? And what are some warning signs that a young athlete may be experiencing burnout?

Okay, thoughtful question. Let's just first frame burnout. Burnout is that full exhaustion. It's not depression, to our earlier conversation, but it's a full exhaustion that somebody's feeling. And technically, it's reserved— it was originated, mostly reserved in the workplace. When you adopt that framing in a sport context and they are mentally, emotionally, physically exhausted, the remedy is like 6 months away as a starting place. Now, in elite sport, we don't have time for 6 months of a hiatus. The kind of the field, the pack just kind of rips right by if you're going to pull out for the most part. Not always. Actually, as I'm saying that, I'm like, there's plenty of examples that I can think of right now in the last kind of, say, 5 years that have taken time off, and it's been the best thing for them. And they are rewriting some of the rules. It's great. So this question, there's a model came out of the 1990s from Canada called Long-Term Athletic Development, LTAD. It's worth researching for parents and coaches. There's phases that they have identified that demarcate, for the most part, an age bracket for the most appropriate type of training. Okay, so the first phase is you just want people to get active and just have fun. Young kids. And, like, to make it— bring it home a little bit, our son, we did, like, tumbling classes and just kind of moving around, that type of basic stuff. And remind me to come back to two types of teaching for parents and coaches. And then you're starting to teach them the fundamentals, and you're trying to do it in a fun way. Fundamentals. Then you're teaching them how to learn, how to follow kind of instructions. So now I think they're in the, like, age 8, somewhere in that range. Then you're teaching them how to train. Okay, so that happens around age 12. Okay, this is where, at age 12 in the US, most parents and coaches are actually getting them into competition mode. Which is the next phase. So it's the kind of movement, fun, learn how to learn, learn how to train, and then learn how to compete. And we are trying to get ahead of it. So we are putting these 12, 13, 14-year-olds in these high competitive experiences. And when you ask parents, like, what do you think? Like, how's it going? Oh, you gotta, they gotta start early. The research on this is that no, they should be learning how to train first, how to do physical conditioning, mental conditioning, how to train to be a good teammate. All of that stuff should be coming first. And then you layer on top of that base how to compete, deep focus, how to commit, how to kind of stay in it a little bit longer than other people might be able to. And that's what a competitive spirit is, how to design and develop your ideal competitive mindset. I can go on and on and on. So we are shorthanding this training segment for competing, and we have— we've widened the window of competition. When developmentally they're not quite ready for that. Uh-huh.

The irony of this is that it comes from the parents wanting their kids to succeed and be success— like so badly.

That's it.

That they're like, if I don't get my kid competing in kindergarten and their third grade bas— like whatever, they're like, I'm doing a disservice to my kid. When really you're actually, you're harming your kid.

You're right. Most parents, most coaches, youth coaches, they want to do good for their kids. Yeah. That's why they're in this.

They have the best intentions.

Yeah. So, honor the learning phase, honor the training phase, honor the competing phase, right? And do those appropriately. And then after that, once you get up into like early 20s, uh, 19, I think it's 19 is where the threshold starts. Like that's where you're really focusing on winning according to this model. And I put a line through that one. I totally put a line through that because if the aim is to win, and I can hear my wife's aunt saying, yeah, the reason we compete is because we keep score. Like, and I put a line through that, like, mm, not for me. What I'm trying to develop for my son, for myself, for folks I work with, is a love affair with figuring out getting better. A love affair with like this thing, this ball, this field, this whatever it might be, trying to figure out this angle, that angle, how to be a great teammate, how to have the right resources, how to let go of mistakes, how to come back. Because this phase is not gonna be forever. Mm-hmm. So I need to learn how to compete within myself, to compete to be a great teammate, compete towards like unlocking the stuff that I want to unlock. I'm so uninterested at this point in the win-loss thing. And I understand if I don't help a team win, I mean, the owner's still flying back on a jet and I'm in my dinghy rowing back, you know, by myself. Like, I understand the business of this thing. But not yet. Not for these young kids. It's not about that.

Is it crazy for me to say that something Peter should do— I empathize with like the school counselor who's seeing their students in a pressure cooker and being like, I just want to tell these kids like, hey, Rebecca, it's all going to be okay if you don't get into an Ivy League school. Shit, if you get held back a year, like that does not, like, mean your life is jeopardized. And that is how these kids feel. I remember, because I was that kid, I remember feeling like, oh my gosh, I got a bad grade in my AP Chem class. Why the hell was I in AP Chem? I don't know anything about chemistry, but because I was like, I gotta take an AP, I gotta have APs. And I remember getting this bad grade on this test and actually having to leave school assembly because I thought that that grade is going to be the reason I can't get into this school, and then my life is totally derailed. And it's like, I just want to tell that girl, like, it would have— it will work out no matter what. You know what I mean?

You know, in some respects it's easy for you to say that because you went to one of the best universities on the planet. Like, it is— it's hard to hear it from you because you've had so much success.

Yeah.

I'm gonna tell you a different story. Okay. I want you to say that a lot, you know, and then to teach people. I probably haven't told this to you. I got a zero on my PSAT. I went surfing. I got a zero on my SATs.

I went surfing.

I went surfing, and I didn't have any options, so I had to go to junior college. If I didn't go to junior college, I think I would have had a lot of troubles in my life. I'm really thankful that my parents sat me down and said, listen, we didn't know how to help you here, so you got to get a job and get out. Or you can still live here, but you got to go to a junior college. I was not ready to move out, so they gave me this kind of ultimatum. And that's not the route that is the narrative for kids now. But I'm telling you, as much as I can muster up the infatuation about this, thank goodness that the route I took was my route. Yeah. So look, you don't have to go straight into a big-name school to have it work out. I really like my life.

Yeah.

And so, and the dean of discipline at my high school pulled my wife aside. We've been dating since high school. She pulled my wife aside and said, hey, what is a nice girl like you? Like, he's not going anywhere. That type of thing. Like, you know, I want to encourage you to— so she wasn't able— no one really was able to see, like, this thing, but I had to figure it out.. And I'm, I'm saying right now, even to my son or whatever, I want the most optionality that people can have. And you gotta work oftentimes for that optionality.

Yeah.

And it's not over though. Yeah. I refuse to accept the conditions as final.

Yeah.

You know?

And so I love that story. I didn't know that about your, um, past, uh, history. And I think that that's so powerful for people to see is like, yeah, how brilliant you are. And how amazing your career is. And let's put that into perspective with the parent today who would literally think it is the most embarrassing, worst thing to tell their really like small bubble of a private school that their kid's gonna go to a junior college before they go to school. That's right. Like that is actually how they, they view it.

That's right.

And then I think back to what you said about me. Very true. I am successful, however you wanna define it, or I define it with my current life. However, There were definitely times where, like, when I went on the TEDx Talk stage and said I've been depressed and I wanted to, you know, drive my bike into oncoming traffic, my parents said to me, are you sure you wanna say that? Your future employers will see it. This will always follow you. You have no idea how it'll be received. So I think it like comes back to this trust in yourself that like, if you're a good person and you have a good work ethic, those two. Like, I find it like it's— the pieces will fall in a way that you could try to keep making work, even if it's not the puzzle pieces that you think your parents and family like want you to put into the board, you know?

I do. Yeah. And you've got to be active with it as best as you possibly can. Keep working it, you know, refuse to have it be final. Yeah, that idea. But yeah, like Really cool. You're doing a massive service to folks saying, yeah, listen, behind the velvet rope of all this success, like, there's been some real hard times. And you're— doesn't mean that you're not going to face hard times, you know, like there could be hard times in the future, but you've now got more tools. And so do I to be able to navigate that. And so this was not that long ago. My wife and I were having a, like, a really honest conversation. And she says, Mike, I think you need to work on this. I was like, I think you're right, you know? And so I'm a work in progress, and I'm just super thankful that I know what the work is. And there's people that I know can hold me to a standard to do the work. So when my wife said to me, I think you need to do some work on this, what do you hear in that? What do you hear the work is? The issue is immaterial. But if I were to say to you, oh, have you been working on this? What is the work for you?

Like currently, what's something I'm working on?

No, no, not what are you working on, but what is quote unquote the work?

I think prioritizing that element of my life and ensuring that I'm being really intentional about it when it arises and I'm trying to course correct and like recalibrate it so that it can be no longer work I have to do.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. So it's like if there's something that is tripping you up, getting in the way, if it's in a weight room and you're like, oh, it's my left shoulder, I know I need to do some rehab work or something on my left shoulder. Like, you go to work on it and there's prescriptions for it and there's people that can guide you. Same is true for a broken heart in some respects, or anxiety or depression or whatever it might be. We all have these tripwires. The work begins with self-discovery. Go to work on yourself to understand yourself, your blind spots, to your best abilities, your tripwires, the things that set you down a path of I don't know, self-critique or self-doubt or irritation or whatever the thing might be. And then see if you can rehydrate the seeds that are a counteract to that. Because when you stop watering seeds, they die. When you water other seeds, they grow. So that's the work, is to go in and do self-discovery. And then there's all these cool mental skills like self-talk and breathing and blah, blah, blah, blah. They're mechanical.

We put a pin in the difference between coaches and teachers. You wanted to explain, or coaches and parents?

No, two types of coaching. One is formal instruction and the other is guided discovery. So formal instruction is, let's say that you are going to teach somebody how to do a roll down a hill, a forward roll down a hill. Formal instruction is you would say, and I'm thinking of like a 5-year-old, you would get next to 'em and you'd say, okay, tuck your chin down, put your hands in front of you, kind of get in a small little ball. And then put the grass on the crown of your head and then roll. Right? And you might do it in front of them so they could see it. Formal instruction. And then they would do it and they'd flop to one side a little bit and you'd say, no, no, no. Okay, come on back. We're going to do it again. Tuck your chin. Now have your chin touch your— and then put your hands right here, just like this. Okay, great. And formal instruction. Formal instruction will help you get good at something relatively quickly. It's good. Structured. Guided discovery is, you would say to that same you know, 3 or 4-year-old or whatever, 5-year-old, you say, okay, let's roll down the hill and you go first. And they go, this hill? And it's like, seems kind of big to me. Yeah, however you want to go down. So you don't show them, you don't teach them, and they just figure out how to go. It might be like a log on the side. And then the next one, you might say, okay, let's do it differently. And then you— but you don't show them. And then they roll kind of head over butt and they do it like that. You might they might come back up the hill again and say, okay, try it a different way. So it's just giving them all of the discovery mechanisms. That kid takes longer to do a forward tuck roll, but now they have all of the dimensions. They've discovered what is off-axis roll, the log roll. It is such a rich platform to build from.

So yeah, they built courage in themselves. They figured out how to try something new.

Intuition.

Yeah.

And they've got all the physicality of different movements. Instead of like, no, no, no, that's not quite it. Do it again to get it right. And so I want to do like an 80/20, like 80% of the time guided discovery. It's asking you questions, it's pulling it out, you know, it's already in you, kind of helping you discover the stuff that's already true for you. And then 20% like some formal instruction.

I love that. Yeah, I think that's helpful for everyone to think about. I've never heard guided discovery said like that, and I really like it.

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Roberto submitted a question about vulnerability, my favorite. Said, this is a tricky one for athletes and parents to navigate during recruitment to the college process. And/or while on a college roster. Will a prospective coach view this as a sign of weakness or a red flag? Recruiting is a very competitive space and every athlete is looking for an edge over the next one. Roster spots are coveted for the big name schools. Will an open, transparent, honest sharing moment about the challenges and pressures of competing end up costing me?

Hmm. How about it? What do you think?

I completely understand where Roberto's coming from because I remember when I did give my TEDx talk as a sophomore at USC thinking, oh wow, I have 2 more years here of like playing against girls and shaking their hands. What if in the film room they say, let's all serve number 4, she's got anxiety. Like that crossed my mind. Mm-hmm. I'm like, they're like, well, that girl says she gets nervous on serve receive, so let's serve her. Like, but I, at least for me, this is where maybe I take more of like a, a, like a woo woo holistic approach to this, but I'm just like, Roberto, if you feel like you're living your most authentic life by sharing your story and it may make someone think something different of you and it may affect, which I don't even think I believe. I think no matter what the big name schools you mentioned, if you have the best numbers, you're getting recruited. They don't care if you like think the earth is flat and have like, you know, they don't care.

Cause you're getting it done.

Yeah. They don't care. They just want you to get it done.

And so I always just tell myself, well, but you've got a body of work to show that you can get it done.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I personally don't think that if you were to share your mental health story on the internet and you were good, good enough at your sport to even be recruited by the school in the first place, that it would affect, that it would be the difference. And if in for some crazy chance it was, then I don't think that's the school that's meant for you because for you to flourish and be your most full self in this lifetime, you should be attracting the things that want you as you are.

That last line is rad. And I, there's still a taboo around psychology. There's still a taboo around, quote unquote, mental health. I think the phrase mental health is actually problematic in and of itself because it does not indicate vibrance and zest and fire for life. Mental health stands for like this— I don't know, like, are we okay?

Mm-hmm.

So there's a branding problem here. There's still a hangover from the generation before me. I'm Gen X. And what are you?

I am right on the cusp of millennial and Gen Z. So it depends on the day.

Okay.

I was born in 1997, so someone let me know.

So the generation before me was the boomers, and they had this taboo about psychology. It's that it's— there's nothing strong about going and working on your mental health. It's changing now. It's totally changing. And first and foremost is that if you are going to bring this up in the college recruiting or mention it online or whatever, I'm going to follow your lead and say, if I'm on the other side of it and I am recruiting this athlete and they talk about something that's been meaningful and significant and it still has a little bit of taboo, which people like you, Victoria, are changing. Thank you. I'm going, oh, okay, so there's some risk involved. This person understands the risk. They've been through it. That's called social risk. There's like 5 or 6 types of risk. Physical risk, social risk, intellectual risk, moral risk. There's a couple more. And this is social risk. If this person in front of me can take a social risk and do it for noble cause, for an honest, reasonable cause. Oh, you know what? You know what? I also know this person is not going to be overwhelmed by FOPO, fear people's opinions. They are being real and honest, and the lights will not be too big because the lights represent the eyeballs, the critiques of others. Yeah. So this person's like awesome and stable and they've got the numbers to back it up in their body of work, like whatever their stats are. Oh yeah, kid, let's go.

I love that. It's a strength. A lot of coaches would think it's a blessing that a student athlete coming in knows potential problems they have and already works on them. Like, do you know how hard it is for coaches to convince these college athletes, like, can you work on this thing? And they can't even see it yet because of like the lack of, you know.

Yeah. And I'm going to totally back what you said is like, if a coach can't see that or recruiting folks can't see that, they might represent the biggest brand university. They might be the top 10 university, whatever. That's not your spot.

That ain't your coach.

That is not your place. You want someone, just like you said, you want someone that sees you, understands you, gets you, and then can take you further, take you deeper.

Yeah.

And that's the kind of coach you wanna be around. So if you gotta hold back in, in that process, like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze there.

I feel ya. Florence is a big fan of you and listened to your interview with legend Michael Johnson.

Mm-hmm.

And Florence said, that really hit a nerve with me. So thank you for the interview. And the question is, how is it possible? Is it even possible to achieve this same sense of knowing I have it in me to succeed in my field without the external valid— but without external validation. So when Michael was describing the moments before the race and how he learned to mentally prepare himself, the main element was that just knowing he could win it. So Florence is wondering, is it possible to achieve that without external validation? And do you have any suggestions for really getting to know oneself on a deep level the way Michael did?

I mean, amazing question.

I know, they're so brilliant and smart.

Thank you. Yeah. Okay, so Michael Johnson, one of the fastest humans ever to run the planet. Usain Bolt took his record at some point, and I don't know if you've had a chance to listen to it, but this conversation is so good. He has done so much internal work. He again is an emblem for doing the self-discovery work and having the mental skills to navigate high-stress moments. Wow. Amazing. And he was the fastest in the world for a long time. He mentioned this part about being in the ready room. There's all that kind of pressure, stress, whatever, that is pretty natural to that. It is possible, by the way, to dissolve pressure. That is a possibility when it comes to the art of performing. But we're not talking about that yet. And he had this idea that he just— he'd done all the work physically, mentally, technically, and he had a knowing that he was going to win. And in that moment, I remember thinking, I don't understand this. So Florence, we're on the same page.

Mm-hmm.

Coach Carroll, head coach of the Seattle Seahawks, that he and I had a great run together. And he would say that that's the ultimate state, a knowing that you're gonna win. And I would always say, coach, I don't think so. I don't think the knowing is where we want to get to. The knowing that I'm a handful, the knowing that I'm gonna stay in it no matter what, the knowing that whatever comes my way, I'm gonna figure out how to adjust. The knowing that I am a fill-in-the-blank type of person, that type of knowing I can count on.

Mm-hmm.

The knowing that I can face down difficult things. I know this about myself, that I can face down difficult things and give it everything that I have. That's all I need. I don't need to try to know an unknowable. The outcome is an unknowable. I actually want that to be part of the mystery. I want that to be part of the unknown unfolding, excitement of the whole thing. I want to know that I can navigate myself in this environment to my best abilities. And I am again less interested in the outcome, but as many opportunities in my life as I possibly can that bring me to that high art way of expressing. So I am not interested in, in knowing— Florence, we're on the same page on this one. So I think it's really about knowing who you are and then adjusting.

I'm so happy that that was your answer because the same thing popped into my head is something April Ross, Olympic beach volleyball gold medalist, once said to me on my former podcast was, "I know that no matter what happens, I will have my back." And that's always stuck with me.

That's right.

And so Florence, you actually, you can never know, even Michael never really knew. It's a fun thing to say, but hey, there had to have been a race that maybe didn't go the way that he thought, but you could step up to the line and know, win or lose, I will have my back. And that's actually, I think, confidence that gives you the freedom to play greatly.

You know, I oversimplify this. Take magic for a story arc. There's at least two types of folks. Maybe there's more. I don't want to be kind of reductionist by any means, but there's folks that are in the middle of a magic show and they just want to be excited and like, oh, the mystery of it. And this is so fun. They know that there's an art to this, right? And then there's the other person's like, Oh, I'm gonna figure— I'm gonna find the answer. There's no chance. Oh, did you see his finger? He did it with his finger. He put— I don't know. There's something about being kind of in the throes of the unknowing that is really fun and exciting. And I'm not saying be naive, like, like the magic show, kind of just be naive with the whole thing, but just love the unknown.

Yeah.

If you are overwhelmed by the unknown and you're looking for the absolute certainty and knowing, you are working against the nature of reality.

And would it be okay if I tie that up to the very first thing we talked about, which is understanding who you are? Because I found that the thing that's actually brought me the most peace with trying to answer this question of who am I is that there is no words that can follow that question. When I put myself in a box, I just freak out because I'm like, oh, I am a— okay, if I'm not going to say I'm a volleyball player because we're not identifying with sport, then that means I am a daughter, I'm a wife, I'm all these things. But you're also just like labeling and you're associating with other identities that are equally gonna be as devastating if they don't work out as it would the sport. So it's like we are unlimited beings. And to, to the point that you were just saying, like all we can know are our traits, that we are hardworking, that we don't bail on ourselves, that we love deeply, that we are kind, that we always try to do the right thing. And then those things manifest in whichever. Whatever avenue we're in that day.

Yeah, I think that idea that we are all those things and so much more. Mm-hmm. That you are a daughter and so much more.

Right.

You are an athlete and so much more. You could go that direction or you can go the other, I think where you're going, which is like, I don't even wanna put labels to any of it. Like there's something here I can't— Dot, dot, dot. Yeah, dot, dot, dot. The ellipsis of all. So yeah, very cool. And Florence, I hope we answered your question.

I think you did. Yeah, I like that one a lot. I'm going to keep that one with me. We're getting close to the end here. Curtis asked, how do you deal with imposter syndrome? Point blank, period.

Point blank, period.

Curtis said, tell me, Dr. Mike.

Yeah, when folks come in and they say, you know, I've got this worry that people are going to find out, you know, that I don't know, I kind of got lucky in the interview, or if they only knew how hard I'm working to keep it all together, that they would know that like I'm not that talented, I'm just a hard worker. I'm afraid they're going to find out. I say, welcome to the club. Me too. Like, I understand that. And I don't feel like as much of an imposter as I once did. But also, I'm looking to be on the edge where I, I'm in the rooms and in places where I don't know. And so it's changing for me. So at some point, welcome to the club. You are going a little bit faster than you know how to ski. And it's a It's a little scary on this hill.

Cold.

So are most people. The thought that they over there have it all together and I over here by myself don't, it's not honest, but it feels that way. And just welcoming people to the club, like I'm the custodian of this club, like, is not how this works. But there is something welcoming about like, yeah, I understand that too. And then the other piece is go back to this idea of having a love affair with what you don't know. Like really being enthralled with, like, how things can unlock and what would happen if. And what is that possible, do you think? If we did A, B, and C, could that maybe be a possibility? That's really exciting. I want to be teammates with people that don't pretend like they have it all together, don't show that way, but they are committed to figuring it out. And that's the, I think, the major anecdote for imposter syndrome. Be honest with yourself. You're not expected to have it all together. Who actually cares what they think of you? FOMO, fear of people's opinion, the greatest constrictor of your potential, my potential. And I don't know, I just think it's not that big a deal anymore. And so if you're really struggling with that, I don't want to make light of it. I'm just saying that I think it's normal. Most people have it.

I mean, so much is diffused when you call out the thing you're afraid people will think of you. I remember I once spoke at Harvard And my imposter syndrome was like, oh my God, I couldn't even like get into school here. Why do they wanna hear from me? What could I say? Everyone in this room's gonna be smarter than me. Like I had such imposter syndrome. And what was the very first thing I said when I stood in front of this room of people to speak? So I have to be honest, I don't know why you guys want to hear from me. Mm-hmm. Like you guys go to Harvard and they all start laughing. And right there it's like, I've called out, hey, I'm a little insecure. I'm not as smart as you. Mm-hmm. I've said it, I've owned it. I feel weight off my back. Like I'm not walking in there.

In there.

I don't like fake it till you make it. That— I don't like that, that advice.

That, that idea will not hold at Finding Mastery.

Yeah. So just, you know, I think Curtis trying to own it a little bit like Dr. Mike described. And then this is our last question before we'll close, and then I have a question to kind of round out this conversation.

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So this last audience question is from Sally. What advice would you give to coaches to make sure they're taking care of their players' mental health?

First and foremost, I don't think, I mean, please somebody chin check me on this thing, but I don't like to give advice. I like to, work from first principles, share those first principles. And then maybe more importantly, I like to ask a lot of questions. So in this case, I would ask the coach a ton of questions, not like gotcha types of questions, but I'd say, hey, coach, I just want to say thank you for investing in my kid. He loves this. He's really looking forward to this year. How important is the mental part of the game for you? And the coach is going to say something. And whatever the words are, your job is to figure out if there's an energy or an intention that's matching those words. All the spidey sense are up when something is said but not believed. So I'd ask the questions and then I'd poke around a little bit. Like, is there mental training involved in all, in any of your practices?

No.

You know, I read some books, but I'm not really sure what to do about it. Then I could maybe say, oh, you know, something like asking them for 3 goals that are 100% under their control before each practice. I found that to be a really useful practice. If this is me having the conversation, I like that.

Like being vocal to my teammates, 100% under your control, running to every drill, 100% under your control, and keeping a positive attitude this entire practice, 100% under your control. Love it.

Yeah. Scoring, not acing, not home runs, double bases, whatever. Those are not— they're good. There's nothing wrong with those, but you want to put your kids in a power alley. And controlling the things that are in their control is actually what mastery is about. So that's something super mechanical and small, that little practice, but it's a really nice practice. I would just ask questions, but not as an inspection, as a curiosity. And then if there seems like there's some opening, then I might suggest, like, let's say I wasn't trained. There's this book that I've really enjoyed, and Mind Gym is a great book for coaches. And so I would suggest that coaches— it's a small book. Gary Mack wrote it. You read like a page and a half a day, and they're small pages. These are not full-size pages. And ask your kids to do the same. And they show up at a practice and you say, hey, we're all on Play with Fire chapter. It's like 2 pages, a page and a half. Joey, what do you got? Johnny, what do you got? And so that is a really simple way just to introduce some ideas.

I love that so much. Finally, I think everyone listening to this or watching this, they're watching it on their phones or on the computer. They've got headphones in, and social media is a huge part of everyone's lives. And I think it also impacts, of course, the youth and young athletes, young kids growing up. So if we had to close this conversation, kind of coupling a lot of what we've talked about today and also relating it to the effects of an impact of social media, are there any skills or are, uh, daily tools you could offer to parents and coaches trying to ensure that their kids don't get impacted too negatively by social media?

I do not have an answer. It's the right question. I will tell you what we're doing at my family. My son's 17. He still does not have social media.

How is that? Is he isolated at all from like his friends?

No, we gave him Snapchat when he was like 16 or something like that, you know, and because there was a communication type of thing and like, I don't know, he didn't really use it. They don't really use it anymore. They text and text, text is more of a way. He does ask probably, I don't know, I'll say 4 times a week, hey, Mom, can I look at my Instagram? So he's curious and he'll respond that way. But it's like in a car ride or it's like for 10 minutes. It's on my phone.

His Instagram account exists on his mom's phone.

Yeah. And so it might sound to some like it's super controlling or whatever, but the data is uber clear. Brain is not designed for that type of stimulation. And psychologically— so I'm talking about cognitively, we are not designed psychologically. We are not designed to see everybody else's highlight reel. It's, it's a dishonest representation of people. So the harm does not outweigh what we can manage.

I would be so interested in reading. I believe you, and I'd love to read. I'm sure people listening would too. I don't know if you guys are able to put in, like, some of the studies or the things that have made you feel so confident about these choices, because I would love to learn. Because we hear, oh, it's not good for them, but I'd love to see it. Because, I mean, even today, nowadays, I was thinking Max and I watch a lot of TV at night. The minute we start having kids, like, I don't want a kid watching TV 5 nights a week. And then I'm like, oh my gosh, that's a huge, huge mirror in our faces that we stare at the screen 5 nights a week.

It's different, different stages, different phases. Like, totally different. Jonathan Haidt, his book.

Okay. Jonathan Haidt.

Yeah. I'll send you a copy of it and I'll put the link in the show notes. What he's done for— it's called The Anxious Generation. And what he's done from ground-up research has been really important to understand his position in his research. And so he's done a really nice job outlining it there. So much so that this is not uncommon at this point, but my son's school, it was 3 years ago maybe, as soon as that book came out and the administrators read it, the headmaster said, "Yep, no social media, no cell phones on campus." Sorry.

Love that.

Yeah, so this is like as a freshman or sophomore, I don't, can't remember. So it's, it's really clear.

Yeah.

And there's also a subgroup of parents, um, at our school that are like, yeah, me too.

That's great.

Yeah.

I did see this cool news piece where a group of moms whose daughters are all in a friend group got them all landlines. So they're like, if you wanna dial numbers and pick it up and you wanna talk to your friends and listen to them, go ahead, talk to them all day long. But I don't want you looking at the screen.

That's great.

Doing this.

Yeah.

I thought that was a cool way to keep them social after school, but in a way that is like healthy technology.

Have you seen— I don't know what generation it is, but it's like going back to the flip phone. There's like a resurgence of that.

Yeah, people going, getting like an old Razr or something.

There's no social media on there. It's like, I don't trust— that's basically, I don't trust my ability to be pulled by that dopamine. And so I'm going to design my life in a way that doesn't have the optionality to be at my fingertips. Totally cool. Yeah. So keep it away as long as you possibly can. And I think that you're in a, in a better position for brain health and psychological emotional health.

Well, it was a pleasure to get to facilitate this, this conversation through the questions from your audience. So thanks for having me.

Listen, Victoria, I wanted to do this with you because you understand what it takes to invest in yourself, to be your best. You've been living it. You've been showing other people the way. I really wanted to do this with you. And Hidden Opponent is awesome. I want to celebrate that.

Thanks.

Can we drive people to that website and on social?

I think it's honestly, if someone, if you're here still listening, you will love what we're doing at THO. Go to The Hidden Opponent on Instagram or our website. We're always posting about the latest news updates in the athlete mental health world. We are creating mental health leadership in student athletes around the country. I mean, if your kid is in high school or college, they could be a campus captain for The Hidden Opponent. So, um, check us out.

The Hidden Opponent. Thank you. And you know what? You and your husband are a force. Max Brown, you know, like—

Max, shut up.

Yeah, you guys are a force. You guys are doing so much good and having so much fun. Congrats on your new place.

Thank you. Appreciate it. And it's been— I'm just like always honored anytime I get to collaborate with you in any way and get to talk to you. So let's do more. It's been a handful of years now that we've been floating in the same ether. It's great.

I love seeing your success. So congratulations on all of it. And hopefully our community community kind of flood you. Hopefully some donations come in.

Yeah.

You know, and awesome. And some, some support in other ways as well.

So yeah, that'd be great. Thank you again. Thanks everybody.

Next time on Finding Mastery, we are going back into the Finding Mastery vault with Seth Godin, bestselling author, entrepreneur, and one of the most influential voices in modern business and leadership. Together, Seth and Mike unpack why leadership isn't about authority, why authenticity isn't always what we think it is, and how to stop letting the fear of other people's opinions dictate your life. Some conversations only become more relevant with time, and this is one of them. So join us Wednesday, August 12th, at 9:00 AM Pacific only on Finding Mastery.

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