The Showdown That Could Reshape U.S. Politics

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This is the home of maga, where Donald Trump, the president himself, lives. If change comes to Florida in 26, it will be so disruptive to our national politics. We get to talk about reform initiatives. But yes, the road to the White House then runs through Florida in 2028 because they're coming to Florida, both sides of the aisle saying, what just happened here? That's the environment we're in right now. Andrew, I know we can win this election and the impact will be historic. When we do.

Is my pleasure to welcome back to the podcast relatively freshly minted Democratic candidate for governor of the great state of Florida, David Jolly. Welcome back, David.

Andrew, it's always great to be with you. Thank you for having me.

Okay, so for those people who don't know you, I'm going to do like a brief summary. I want to say you grew up like the son of a pastor or preacher.

Yeah, that's right. A minister's kid in the south in the 70s and 80s. You can imagine the environment and the faith community that frankly, my wife and I still hold very closely today.

Yes, you became a member of Congress for a number of years and then left both Congress and the Republican Party when Trump came to power, said, hey, that's not really my cup of tea. Went independent. People who find your face and voice familiar might have seen you on tv, on msnbc, cnn, any place. Handsome, well spoken people appear to explain things to folks. You and I have worked together on independent political reform and you've been considering any number of runs in Florida because people have been asking you, I think every two years, like, hey, David, you gonna run? You gonna run? So finally you said yes. So what has motivated you to run for governor in 26?

Yeah, look, I think we know we are in dramatically changing times and, and arguably times that are Threatening democracy for any number of reasons. And I think you have been drawn to politics for many of the same reasons that I have a reformist heart and somebody who really knows that we can do better, that our politics can change. It is what I enjoyed so much about the independent space. The opportunity to kind of become untethered from convention and really tackle some of the issues that stand in the way of direct democracy. And so why now? I would say, you know, politics is so often about timing and you have to choose that right time. I'm not wired to always want to run for office. I got to be honest with you. Our kids are 6 and 4. The most important thing to me is my family, my faith, my community. But look, sometimes a moment reaches out and grabs you and says now's the time. And I think the most important part about this, Andrew, is in this moment in American history where so much is at stake, I think all of us have to do what's within reach, right? I mean, one of the things you and I did together in trying to organize the independent movement is we were doing what was within reach for us at the time. That's true of every volunteer, everybody who writes a check, everybody who engages raises their voices. And so I think it just so happens right now in the state of Florida, what's within reach is for me to run for governor as a Democrat. And very importantly, I think we're in the midst of a national change environment in Florida. We have a state affordability crisis, much like across the country, but it is unique in each state. We have a remarkable opportunity in Florida to actually change the direction of the state in 2026. We can win this race in Florida in 2026. And this is the home of MAGA. You want to talk about disrupting national politics when Florida's voters, not when David Jolly wins. When Florida's voters elect a Democratic governor in 2026, we will have delivered an earthquake politics nationally when we do that. But it's because there is so much pent up demand for change.

I believe you and agree with you that I think that Florida could be very, very competitive in 26 because of cost of living issues that plague everyone. Discontent, a lot of frustration. But let's kind of level set for people to. Florida was famously a swing state. I think it was the hanging chad state. There was 500 votes in the presidential of 2000 and it stayed a swing state until relatively recently. I'd say about 12 years ago it started migrating, maybe even eight years ago it started migrating to the right and that was around the time a guy named Ron DeSantis came to power whose term limited out. And I actually remember Ron DeSantis won by Harry's breath himself. He was in a very competitive race with a guy named Andrew Gillum. So really, it's eight years or so that Florida has gone quite red, which is interesting because I know, I happen to know a lot of New Yorkers who are Democrats who moved to Florida over this time. So you'd think that it might have gone the other direction. But no, it's got very red. And so now people think of it as a red state because they identify it with Ron DeSantis, who is term limited. Out. There was talk of his wife running to succeed him, but that got short circuited by a combination of Byron Donalds, who's your almost certain opponent in the general, and Donald Trump, who got behind Byron Donalds. So you were a member of Congress for a number of years. I'm going to ask a two part question. Number one, does it pain you to see colleagues of yours that you probably sat with and lunched with and like you think are totally reasonable people signing off on things where you're like, you know, that's not cool. You're like, come on. And then, and then second, what's your impression of your likely opponent in the general?

Yeah, sure, great question. Does it pain me? You know, it certainly did for a long time. But I think, Andrew, there have been ample moments for call them reasonable Republicans, soft Republicans, to actually stand in the gap of history and say, no, we're not going to do this or to fight for values. And so in the first few years, we saw all the different strategies. Right. I chose to speak out against the President in 2015 from the House floor, call on him to drop out of the race, never supported him. Others negotiated their way to saying, well, I'll support the nominee. Some said, well, I disagree with him, but it's better than the alternative. And some just went all in with him. Well, that was 10 years ago. Now, if you're going along with the president and you disagree with him, well, shame on you. And I think the bigger factor, though, is the president has remade the Republican Party and most people actually agree with everything he's doing. And so we have an opportunity to draw a contrast with that. I don't. Right. I think I talk about three fundamental values and I think the country that maybe we've lost touch with, but that I see in my politics, I see in today's Democratic Party, but I see in much of the independent movement as well. Three values. The economy should work for everyone. Everybody, not just the rich and the reckless and the gamblers. The economy should actually work for everybody, including the working class and frankly, those who've lost their jobs. Our economy, a capitalist economy, should actually work for everybody. Secondly, the government should serve its people, its seniors, its veterans, its storm victims, families in need of excellence in public education. And the third value is we should be a country, a state of Florida, where everyone is welcomed and celebrated, regardless of where you were born, the color of your skin, who you love or who you worship. Okay? Those are the values. And so I think what pains me the most about the direction of today's Republican party is I don't see those values in today's Republican leadership. At least I see them in a lot of Republican votes.

Oh yeah, day to day, sure.

Yeah. But I don't see it in the leadership. And so that's our opportunity then to draw a contrast. And so fast forward then to this race in Florida. Look, it may be Byron Donalds, it certainly is right now, but I can tell you Ron DeSantis is determined to find anybody but Byron. Florida Republicans are about to have a circular firing squad for the next year while I'm unifying the Democratic primary. And so that's a very good environment for us. But I don't mind whomever the the opponent is because the ultimate question in Florida nationally is change versus more the same. Are you okay with the direction we're going in Florida? Because I'm not sure people are. When your insurance costs have tripled in the past several years, where property taxes prevent first time home buyers from entering the market, where public education has been so abandoned that Florida's teachers are paid last in the nation, the third largest state paid last in the nation. And then this conflation of immigration and crime, people see the cruelty through it. Right? We can be a state that's tough on crime, but we don't have to fight communities. And so bring also then the culture wars of the last six years, which were very impactful four years ago in Florida. Right. Ron DeSantis wins by 18 reelection because of COVID and culture wars, basically. But people are exhausted by culture wars because they see what it's done. It punches down and marginalizes people. So I feel very good if we focus on those three values. The economy should work for everyone. The government should serve and everyone should be celebrated our values against whomever Republicans nominate this cycle, the trend line suggests Republicans will double down in ways that are antithetical to those values in a governor's race. I feel very good about where voters will land on that.

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Now one reason why I think this race will be competitive and you have a chance to win is that the Democrats have fallen in line behind you, which I agree with, I think is very practical now. And I think they've fallen in behind you because they sense that you would be able to speak to voters that aren't really big fans of conventional Democrats right now in Florida, that you have an approach and an energy that people can very quickly identify as okay, like this guy is reasonable, middle of the road, he's a former Republican who left when Trump came to power and now can try and bring people together. A lot of business minded folks would find you like completely positive and say like, oh good, like I'm, I'm, you know, I've been a Republican but like I'm not a fan of some of the things going on and maybe some of my businesses have been disrupted by some of these practices of the president. So one of the stereotypes would be that if someone like you ran for the Democratic nomination then they would be like, oh no, like you're not a real them or whatnot. But instead the Florida Democrats to their credit are saying great, let's get behind, let's get behind David, like that this will be a much more competitive race. On the other side, who do you think that it's going to be opposing Byron in the Republican primary? Obviously a contested primary would be good for you because I feel like you're going to have a pretty be the front runner on the Dem side and people are going to consolidate behind you.

So look, I think first of all, I don't know that it's much of a negotiation with today's Democratic Party because of the way the values align that I describe. Right. Those three values. And I find this a very rational Democratic environment that says let's unify in this case around. I think those three values are pretty incontrovertible and most importantly, let's win because if we don't win, we don't get to change the direction of the state or the country. And so I find this a very rational but also very unified Democratic environment. Look on the other side of the ticket. I don't think the first lady, Casey DeSantis, has actually ruled it out. There's been a lot of developments in the last few weeks that suggest she may be reconsidering it. But if it's not her, I'm telling you, Ron DeSantis is determined to find anybody. The rift between he and Trump privately is still as bad as it's ever been. And, and so we will see if Byron Donalds can pull off having the Republicans line up behind him. But that is not the way this is developing right now. And look, primaries are fine. You get to have a family conversation. Certainly in the Democratic field, maybe we'll have a primary and have a family conversation, but we'll see what Republicans do, their family conversation. They're all speaking the same language. They're just fighting over power. Right. And so that's a fascinating dynamic. Here's the one thing I'll tell you though, about our side of the aisle, the Democratic primary, how I'm running. You know, the most informative part of my politics, Andrew, came in the independent space those six years in the independent space because it allowed me to become untethered from major party dogma to really think about issues. And where it's landed me is in a very post ideological space. Right. You and I often talk about this, but I don't care about the left right spectrum. I, I reject it whole cloth, the left, moderate, progressive, conservative. All those definitions, to me, I know they matter to a lot of people. They don't matter to me. This race and my politics are about big solutions to big problems. I think we need a state catastrophic fund in Florida to drive down insurance costs by 70%. Republicans call it socialism. I just call it cheaper insurance. I also though think we need more efficient government and lower taxes where we can. Right? We, we have to provide services. We can't go into debt. But we need lower taxes, certainly for the lowest income earners among us. But I also think low corporate taxes allow us to compete internationally and domestically with other states. So those should always be a target. Maybe some on the left would say, oh, that's too conservative. I just call it economic growth and I call it lower taxes for working class people. So I don't actually, you know, I don't buy into the left right middle stuff. And particularly in today's Democratic Party, I can tell you I've done maybe 30 town halls across the state. I'm visiting communities all over the place. The politics within the democratic party of 2018, trying to figure out this left center, you know, contest. It's not happening in Florida. Florida's Democrats are very unified around the values I mentioned and unified around winning.

A number of years ago, people thought of Florida as cheap, affordable real estate. And now it seems like that has totally changed.

That's right. You know what I mean?

Like, people go down there, weather's good, taxes are low and housing is cheap. And now.

Not anymore.

Yeah, now certainly the housing is shot up in price. Insurance costs are spiking as well because people are realizing, hey, you know, there might be a natural disaster, hurricane or flood or something, some such. And so the insurance companies are pricing accordingly. In some cases, I think they're refusing to cover. Is that right?

Oh, sure, sure. And so we have an insurer of last resort. Look, here's the interesting thing. When it comes to housing costs in Florida, we're not the Fed. Right. I mean, we don't get to control interest rates. We can't control macroeconomic growth. We can't stabilize rents through price control. You know, we're not doing any of that. However, there's a lot that can be done in Florida that, that Republicans, frankly, in Tallahassee refuse to do because it's kind of antithetical to their ideology. And, and that's fine. That's not a criticism. It's just they don't have answers because they're, they're just trusting the free market to run completely unfettered. The problem is it's created a crisis, a crisis, an economic crisis for people across the state of Florida. And this is maybe I'm in a post ideological space, I think where private markets fail or create crises, the government has to step in. So what are some examples where in a, in a real reasonable way, government can help out the housing crisis in the state of Florida? First, we can expand our formulas for workforce housing. We can bring in more workforce developers that are kind of this quasi private public market partnership and bring them into parts of the state, communities of the state where more available, affordable workforce housing can be built. What the government does is it basically goes into an agreement, usually a 40 year agreement with those developers that say we'll provide you certain benefits, tax credit, subsidies, whatever it might be, and you're going to agree to certain price points for affordable housing. We can also do smart growth. Right. Instead of continuing to explode development on the coastline, let's look at areas across the state of Florida where Smart development can occur. But unlike what Republicans are doing, that also means ensuring we have clean water and sufficient school capacities in some of these places. It can't just be a giveaway to developers. It's got to be smart growth. But two of the biggest drivers of housing costs right now is an insurance market that has collapsed. There is not a private insurance market, Andrew, to cover natural disasters. It doesn't exist anymore. It's true in California, Florida, Texas, elsewhere, flood states. In fact, all of the underwriters want to carve out natural disasters. So I think we just, we throw in the towel and say that's right. And the solution is we set up a state catastrophic fund to cover all natural disaster perils. Basically a state sovereign wealth fund that takes out reinsurance from Lloyd's of London and otherwise invest in capital assets in other states. But ultimately what it does for private insurance in the state of Florida is it cuts your insurance costs by 60 to 70%. Because now every insurer comes in to cover the natural, you know, the normal peril, slip and fall, leaky pipes, a fire, whatever it might be. But the other crisis we have is, is in property taxes. And look, 20 years ago, the run up of the 2000s real estate values got so bad people couldn't stay in their homes. So we pass relief called Save our Homes. Longtime homeowners, your property taxes are capped. Imagine that Republicans capped the rate of growth. Right. They use government to do that. The inverted problem now is first time homebuyers now bear all the burden of a run up in tax basis when they buy a home. So we need an, we need a generational solution for that. Say a step up in basis of three or four years. Those are Florida solutions to Florida's problems. Right. Other states have, have other problems, other solutions. But the, the main thing here in the state of Florida is Republicans have been in charge for 25 or 30 years. 25 or 30 years. And so the question for voters is very simple. You know, do you like your affordability crisis? Because if so, Republicans will continue to give you one. But if you want change, forget about Republican, Democrat or Independent, everybody, every voter has been hit by this affordability crisis that's been made worse by Republican leadership in our state over the last decade.

Yeah. Being a change candidate I suspect is a great place to be.

Yeah. In a change cycle. That's right.

Yeah. No, I believe it. I mean, I think a lot of people are going to be ticked off. When is your primary next year?

So our primary is not until August, which is why I'm pleased we've unified the Democratic primary so early, and I hope we can continue it. Look, the August late primary in Florida was set up by Republicans to be very pro incumbent because after the primary you have about three weeks before mail ballots hit in the general. And so Republicans with 20 to 30 years of control have thought, well, our incumbent class will stay unified. We'll let the Democrats have these messy primaries. We might pull off the opposite this cycle. That's certainly what I'm trying. If we can be speaking about the affordability crisis for the next year while Republicans are having their family war, we're in a very good place as a state to say now's the cycle that we get change.

I just want to have some fun for a second. So you mentioned that DeSantis and Trump are still really ticked off at each other, which doesn't surprised me at all. That seemed like a very nasty race. So, you know, and Byron Donald's definitely a Trump guy. And so Ron's like, well, bring in.

White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, who has been the chief to each of them, who DeSantis very ungraciously showed the door to as soon as she saved his 2018 campaign. So you've got a chief operator in the middle of those two with all of the, all of the president's powers, if you will.

Oh, yeah. I mean, that was a terrible mistake letting her go on the part of Ron DeSantis because she then shows up by Trump's side and then says things like, hey, you know what? Ron's really sensitive about his height. So what we're going to do is we're just going to plant stories about how he wears lifts and just make that a huge thing.

I know, it is vicious. It is vicious. Two politicians with incredible vanities. Recall, I served in the House with Ron. And what I would always, you know, attribute to him is you talk about a man in a hurry who was raising money nationally as a freshman in a very safe red state with no other reason to raise money. And then he and I ended up in the 2016 Senate primary against each other. Recall, Marco Rubio was running against Trump and was never going to go back to the U.S. senate. He hated it. And so you had this upstart kind of crazy right wing Freedom Caucus guy, DeSantis. You had this middle of the road chamber of Commerce Republican and jolly. And so for a year, we ran against each other for the US Senate until Trump beats Rubio, Rubio gets back in the Senate, knocks both of us out and the music stops. But, yeah, there's a long history with Governor DeSantis.

Well, you know, one thing that does happen, I don't think people realize or appreciate this, but when you run against someone, you naturally start to dislike them and your people start to dislike their people. I mean, you kind of have to. You can counteract and combat that if you're very intentional about it. If you continuously tamp down and be like, no, no, no, guys, no, no, no. But naturally, you start getting snarky and competitive because it's just human nature, you know, like, you're in an intense process.

But I think we got to resist. I really do. And I'm Pollyanna and naive and, you know, even in the tone of emails and communication, like, I understand the negative always works, but people are desperate for different politics. I want our race for governor to look and feel different, and I really mean that. Now, that doesn't mean not drawing sharp contrast where it's necessary. Look, national voters always talk about this. There's a group of people who think the way you beat Trump is you gotta be as dirty as he is and as angry and as vindictive and all those things. I sometimes think the truth draws the sharpest contrast. And an example of that is, look, is Ron DeSantis. Obviously, my time on TV, I can deliver lines about the president and the governor and so forth, but I like to think that they're always backed up by truth and fact. I will tell you where I get angriest. I think about the leadership of our sitting governor in Florida. Governor DeSantis is. He has created a state where marginalized communities are now further marginalized and punched down upon, and where, if my wife and I don't step in and make sure that our kids are raised understanding that kind of, we're all one human race, and you get to love who you love, and your skin color might be different. And depending on where you were born, there's heritage to that, that's important, and that the contributions of people from all walks of life to our culture and economy make us stronger as a people. That it's okay to be exposed to diversity in academia or in textbooks and to see different parts of the fabric of society in our life, because that makes us stronger and better people. If my wife, Laura and I don't step in and make sure our kids understand that they're now growing up in a state where they never will and where there's a permission structure to arguably return to white Christian nationalist dominance, I mean, and I know Those words get thrown around a lot. And so I don't do it cheaply, but I do believe that that's been the product of the culture wars in Florida and part of our politics nationally. And so that is not an invective against Governor DeSantis. That is a recognition of his agenda and what he did to the state of Florida. And I don't have any problem calling that out. And to the extent Byron Donalds will continue that, I'm running on a different vision and a different look for the state of Florida and, and I think most voters are tired of where we've, where we've come from over these last six years. Are you ready to dairy free your mind this summer? Melt away your dairy free expectations with so delicious dairy free frozen desserts. Enjoy mind blowing flavors like salted caramel cluster chocolate cookies and cream cookie dough and more. For over 35 years, so delicious has been cranking up the flavor with show stopping products that are 100% dairy free, certified vegan by Vegan Action and are so unbelievably creamy, your taste buds will do a double take. Dairy free your mind. Visit sodeliciousdairyfree.com.

David Jolly is a positive candidate. No, I mean, I prefer the positivity too. And I think you do back it up. You're a very lucid thinker and messenger and actor. So a lot of folks who are listening to this in Florida are independents who are folks who have been on this reform movement bandwagon for the last number of years. In some case, what kind of reforms can they look forward to under Governor Jolly that might appeal to them in terms of either the way candidates get selected or incentives.

Yeah, look, we need independent voters to be part of our coalition. One of the things I like about being a Democrat is we get to accept math. Andrew, you've got an affinity with math, right? Yes. Here's the math. There aren't enough Democratic voters in the state of Florida to win the governorship by ourselves. We need to lead with our Democratic values, but build a coalition. And so my message to independent voters is let's gather around those values I mentioned. The economy should work for everyone. The government has a role to actually provide services to its citizens and everyone should be welcome and lifted up. We can build a coalition around that with independents and Republicans and from there we tackle policy problems. Right. And insurance. Maybe it's a cap fund and property taxes. Maybe it's first time homebuyer relief. I think we need a renaissance of public education because frankly the business Enterprise of our school voucher system is going to collapse and not serve Florida's families. Florida's vouchers now now fund environments, not education. In fact, most of the education offerings are below the academic standards of our public schools. But we have starved our public schools so that the resources aren't there for Florida's families. There are solutions to the problems we have. And so for independents who just maybe there's a distrust of the major parties and usually for good reason, if we're just talking about big solutions to big problems right this post ideological space, I think there's a natural coalition for independents to say, look, a governor's race is different than a senate race or a presidency. We don't have to litigate the President, United States. This is about affordable insurance, safe communities, good schools, good transportation, multimodal transportation instead of all these highways that are tolled at five and ten bucks. And along the way, what we also get by electing a Democratic led coalition with independents is true electoral reforms. A fight for independent redistricting commissions to disrupt gerrymandering. A discussion around what our primary system looks like. Is there a way to better open up campaign financing that is fairer for people? How do we increase access to the ballot not just for voters, but for independent candidates who want to have a voice in their municipal elections? All of those things come by electing a reformer. Recall one of the things that got me kicked out of the Republican party in many ways was my reform agenda, right? I mean I ended up on 60 Minutes because I don't think incumbent politicians should be allowed to ask you for money. Like I think once you're elected, you hold the public trust. You shouldn't have to go around asking people for money. That would be a dream. So I think there is a fantastic opportunity, fantastic opportunity for independents in Florida to to join a coalition led by today's Democratic party, right? Hopefully as me as the Democratic nominee around those three values I mentioned about the economy, government and personal dignity.

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Well, I gotta say David, if you win, which I think you could in 26, you would essentially have carte blanche to be a reformer and change some processes because the Democrats would be so thankful that you would bring them back from the wilderness that if then you were like, hey guys, maybe we should have open primaries. Maybe we shouldn't like be districting for partisan advantage at every turn. You could do a lot of stuff because they'd be like, sure, David, whatever you want.

Look, I think we move first, we move first on gerrymandering, frankly, because many Democrats are already leading on gerrymandering reform in Washington and Florida and that's within reach. But to your point, Andrew, people often say, okay, a Democratic governor, how could you work with a Republican legislature? And it's a fair question. My wife and I had to wrestle with that. But, but the answer is so important because if Florida's voters elect a Democratic governor, not if David Jolly wins. If Florida's voters deliver a Democratic governor in, in 26, the Republican legislature has to worry about their voters more than the governor because we would have seen one of the most dramatic swings in politics happen in the state of Florida and its impact on national politics. Right. A lot of your listeners clearly outside of the state of Florida, this is the home of maga, where Donald Trump, the president himself lives. If change comes to Florida in 26, it will be so disruptive to our national politics. We get to talk about reform initiatives, but yes, we get to talk about stopping the direction, some of the worst parts of the direction of the, of the nation. Look, the road to the White House then runs through Florida in 2028 because they're coming to Florida, both sides of the aisle saying what just happened here, that's the environment we're in right now. Andrew. I know we can win this election and the impact will be historic when we do it.

I agree. I think you can win and I know you wouldn't be taking on this mission if you didn't see the path. I've supported your campaign. I'd urge people listening to this to do so as well. You're a good man, a great vision for not just the state of Florida, but the country and could be a real curative to the nature of our politics. If people want to get behind you, David, how can they best find out more and do so.

Thank you, Andrew. You know, I'M a candidate if I have davidjali.com so davidjali.com is the best way to find us.

That's a great URL. You know, it's funny, I mean, I've got Andrew Yang.com and I'm not running for anything right now.

So here's a little behind the scenes antidote. I got to tell you, this goes back 10 or 12 years and there was unfortunately a DUI lawyer in the state of Washington who owned davidjali.com, wow. And, and this was in the early years before anybody was really buying up URLs. And I sat on that for years until one day I feel badly for the guy. I guess he didn't renew or his card had expired and I picked it up. And for years then I would receive client emails that I would have to forward to him. So I wish him great success. I hope his law practice has been wonderful. But I ended up with his website.

Well, you know, he's about to become governor of Florida. Maybe.

I know. I sometimes wonder. I don't know his politics. I hope. You know, I hope I haven't disparaged his name out in the great state of Washington.

Davidjohn.com, good luck on your campaign. We'll probably hear from you again, I mean on the podcast, obviously. But there's gonna be a lot of interest in your race as people catch on that in a change environment, unifying positive candidate and potentially fractious Republican party, that you can do something that right now people aren't seeing. But I totally see it. I think, I mean, it was not that long ago that Florida was a swing state. People are going to be ticked off and government has not been working the way that people wanted to for far too many Floridians.

That's exactly right. This is the opportunity that we've been waiting for to change the direction of the state, make the state more affordable. But honestly, we turn to a state where everyone is welcomed and celebrated. This is our shot.

Let's go down to Florida. Davidjali.com thank you David.

Thank you Andrew. Great to be with you.

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