#160: Career | Remote Work Loneliness, Embracing Change, and Giving & Receiving Feedback with Kara Hardin

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1, 2, 3, 4, exit.

Exit, exit.

All right, so yeah, it's good to see you.

I'm so curious about how you are. Really?

How am I really? I'm great. I'm doing great. Yeah.

What? Tell me more about that. What's making you great?

A couple things. Number one, everybody's healthy and happy in my family. And that's the most important part. We're in a good spot right now. Kids are, kids are good. Kids are busy. Spring is, we're rounding the corner. We got a surprise snowstorm here in Vermont last weekend. But like the weather is turning the light. The biggest thing is the, like having it be light out at five, six o' clock again is huge. That's a big one. I'm in a good routine with working out, which always makes me. That's like the baseline that's very important for me to Feel good. And then my business is going really well. Since you and I have last talked, I have changed dramatically in that we went from a team of one. And me writing all these, you know, controversial, hot takes on LinkedIn about solopreneurship is the only way to live to. Now I have a team of. There's a. There's three of us that work on this business, and I think we're going to hire more people into next year, and we're. We're going to keep going. So.

I like how you allowed yourself to pivot.

Look, I change my mind all the time. It's a gift and a curse. There are things, you know, some people and things and feelings get left in the wake of that sometimes, and that is hard, and I realize that. But it also is a strong positive in that, like, I'm never too committed to anything, and I think it allows me to, like, I'll never go too deep into something that I don't really believe in or want to keep doing. I'm just like, you know what? Life is too short if this is not working. Like, we gotta just. We just gotta move on. And I'm willing to take the pain of whatever that that entails. And so I changed my mind a lot. And this was a good example of this. Although this took. This one took a little bit longer because I was really hesitant to bring some. Bring somebody into the business. I didn't want to train, I didn't want to coach. I didn't want to, you know, I had a nice life set up. I didn't want to bring somebody in that would derail that. And so I went with somebody. I went with Dan, who I've worked with a bunch of times in the past. And we have a high level of trust and a strong relationship. And I didn't know that he was available to do this, and he was and was really excited about it. And so that. That was the big thing that helped me get over a lot of the hurdles to then do that. And then I went all in. And I'm okay with telling people that, you know, it's okay to change. It's okay to change your mind. You. You do the same thing a hundred.

Not only is it okay to change our mind, I feel like as strivers, we often approach decisions with a mindset that it's permanent, it's pervasive, it's personal.

Yeah.

Like, will I take this job? And instead of recognizing, chances are it's a job for a couple of seasons, we're like, this Is my forever. Should I even apply for this job? Well, can I imagine myself doing it forever? Should I add more people? Should I hire? I'm going to start meditating. It's going to be my life. I'm going to be a meditator. Like, we're so all in. And one of, I think the greatest skills is giving yourself permission, truly and deeply, to constantly be gathering data and then making decisions based on that data in our. And I say our, like, North American, it might be global society. It feels more and more like changing your mind is dangerous. Like, you have to come correct and you have to come right, and you have to get it on the first hot take. And that's so at odds. I mean, like, we're rewarded for controversy.

Yeah.

But we're not allowed to change our mind.

Yeah. And I especially. Yeah, people will hold the grudge. Like, I just. People don't. I think you need to. You need to change your mind and you need to, like, forgive people or. That depends on what they've done. But. But I think you need to. Yeah, we like to hold the grudge, and we like to be like, no, you said that one thing, one time, and that's who you are. And I've done some things that I was like, there's some, like, work decisions and stuff that I made a mistake. You know, things that I've done in the past. And I know for a fact that there's a couple people out there that still, like, deeply resent me for that. And, you know, my mind, it's like seven, seven, eight years later. I'm a different person every six months. Right. Like, every, every year. And I think you, you know, my perspective on that has grown. And I think you have to have the mindset of, like, we're just constantly evolving. You know, I ran into somebody that I hadn't seen in a long time. Like, wow, man, you're really different. And I'm like, well, yeah, you know, like, I'm. I'm 30. How old am I? 30? I'm. I'm 36 years old. I moved to Vermont. I have two children. I have my own business. Like, I have read all these books and listened to this and done this thing, and everything you've gone on, however many years adds up, and you're going to change, and so you have to be able to be okay with that. But you said something there, which is really important. I just think there's something big, even just like everybody listens to this, is working in marketing. And the marketing lesson for Me is if something's not working, why do we keep doing it? And usually, you know right away, right? Like a couple weeks in, you're like, oh, this is not going to work. But we keep doing it because it's. And you may be, you see this with the people that you, that you hang out with and work with, but like, it's easier to just like keep going because we've already invested and committed to it. And like, yeah, we already did all the work to say we're going to do this than it is to like be the one that's like, actually we're going to kill this thing. It's not working.

So I have two thoughts. The first is on a human to human level, I will see people repeat things that they are consciously aware are mistakes in their behavior, in their choices, again and again and again. And they're like, why can't I change? Like this question of why is change hard? Or why do we double down on a marketing plan, on a project, on a business decision, on a hire that we know isn't working? And from a place that people make sense, we make sense. We have to understand that we learn how to feel safe, secure and connected over the course of our lives. We learn behaviors, we learn choices, we learn ways of showing up that we might outgrow consciously, but they take practice, effort and intentionality and awareness to change. So for example, a marketing plan that like clearly isn't working, maybe someone learned that in order to feel safe, secure and connected, they need to be a people pleaser. And it was their boss's idea. This marketing plan that sucked was their boss's idea. And so they feel most safe even when they know the plan is like exploding in front of them, being like, well, I can't bring it up because my boss is going to be really hurt. Yeah, like often underneath, an avoidance of change or a resistance to change is actually a very human relationship or behavior that at some point was learned. I have a part 2. Can I keep going before you jump in?

Because I see you, this is what you're here for, please.

So the other thing is when I think about change, we exist in multiplicity. We are many things at the same time. So the Dave of seven, eight years ago, who, let's be not generous and say part of you screwed someone over Dave, you were just, you made a mistake. That part of you is but one sliver of the pizza that you are. And maybe at that moment of time, it was the biggest, at the loudest, it was the most predominant. This Version of you was also incubating and growing.

Yeah.

And when I think about allowing ourselves to change, what I'm actually, how I conceive of that is allowing us to become who we are. So making space for all of the different parts of us to belong. The part of Dave that was learning and made a mistake, because we've all made mistakes in our lives and we can be accountable for that. We can be responsible, we can learn and grow from that. And. And we can see how in the moment our choices made sense at the exact same time. So there's many parts of us that show up to any given situation. And based on our developmental history, the part that that's the loudest people pleasing might be where we show up. It doesn't mean that in five, 10 years we won't have done work so that when we're on a marketing project that's bombing, we have the courage and conviction to go to our boss against every fiber in our being and be like, this is a bad idea. We need to hit eject. Just takes work. And there's no better or worse version of you. There's just the version that you have the courage to live in.

Yeah. What's your reaction to this? This is a change of subject, but I'd rather text than talk.

Dave, have you been trolling my LinkedIn?

I'm not trolling. I'm not trolling.

Have you been supporting? Have you been supporting and leaning into.

I'm just curious to hear it. I'm just, you know, what's your reaction to that?

My reaction to that is you are not alone. You're not alone. So I'm hearing. I'm curious if you are hearing this in the Exit 5 community. A number of folks like being astoundingly lonely in the context of work.

Yeah.

Are you seeing that?

I don't know. I'm a little bit removed from. From maybe that part of it. I do. It's actually. It is actually something that I just thought about today because we have a lot, like, just not in the Exit 5 community, but with our business and the three of us that are work, that are doing this as work. There's so many things going on and we're going. We're getting busy and we're doing a lot and there's three of us that are definitely strivers and a lot is going on. We run the business on slack. Like everything is kind of in there. Each channel has a purpose, blah, blah, blah. But I actually just sent a message to Dan earlier and I was like, do we need to just talk more? Because. So Dan and his wife just had a baby a month ago and this month I've been feeling like urgency because Dan has been out rightfully so. And then we talked for an hour yesterday and like all of the things that I was like stressed out about or felt urgency around just like went away. We talked for an hour. It was clear that he was like itching to be back, you know, not because being a parent isn't great. It's just like that's, that's a tough state. That newborn stage is tough and your, your brain is whittled down to a raisin and it feels good to like, feels good to do some stuff and be like, oh yeah, I'm. I'm actually kind of smart and it was great. And basically every question that I had over the last four weeks was like, answered in our, in our hour long conversation. And I, I left like re. Energized, like hot. I was like, man, I missed you. I missed you. And I just had this. I was like, yeah, do we need to just talk more? Because the updates are great, but like when you can explain what you meant or have free form space to like riff on ideas, I think that is important. So I saw your post and I like efficiency. Like you, I like to do things. I like text and writing because I can do it on my time. I don't like the spontaneity of a call, but I have found myself more reaching for that lately because I do feel like you can connect the dots quicker when we hop in there and talk. And it is a totally different working environment than four or five years ago when, you know, I was in an office with everybody on my team and we all sat within arm's length of each other and you could drop by. And so there's definitely something there I haven't seen specifically that people are feeling more. I forget what, what word.

Lonely.

Lonely. But I would guess, I would guess it does feel like if you're a knowledge worker, like we are in marketing and you're in your home office, you know, or wherever or co. Working space, whatever, just talking into the screen. You do miss that. And I think that's an important thing to get back and have those conversations. So it is tough. That's something you're seeing, obviously.

I'm seeing a lot of it. And I think your story is exactly the thread that I wanted to pull. We have so many ways of communicating with one another and we get so used to slacking and messaging and administrating with people.

Yeah.

But we don't connect with them.

Right.

And the anxiety of connection, like, especially since COVID I've seen a reluctance, a hesitation, an avoidance, a, like, general ugh. When it comes to socializing.

Yeah.

At work, it feels like more work. Like, it always felt like work. But I think before there was, like, no decision fatigue around it because people. People just assumed they had to do it. And now it's, do I have to text? Do I have to talk? And there's. There's a higher entrance fee. And what I'm hypothesizing is that all of the constant communicating but not connecting is resulting in loneliness. And your story with Dan, like, gosh, having a baby is athletic. He is physically up at all hours.

Yeah. Oh, it's nothing. Let's be honest. It's nothing compared to his wife. But yes, he had.

Well, depending on how they're dividing the labor.

Yeah.

Depending on how they're doing it. Right.

I'm just meaning the fact that she literally, she grew the child. Yeah. It's insane. It's the most incredible feat you could.

Imagine as another person who has produced children. Thank you so much for that, for that shout out.

I talk about it all the time. I say it to my wife every day. I'm like, you know what you did? You grew our children. Like, isn't that insane?

You know what? To any pregnant person listening, I just want you to know right now, you're making a brain. And you could just call the rest of the day done.

No doubt.

Because look at what you're doing. There's no more striving you can do.

And so if your brain is not functioning and you're wondering why, it's because. It's like.

It's because your body is making another brain. Like, it's taking all the effort. There's only so much we can do. We are limited. So I think this idea is that it's gotta be varied. Like, you wouldn't only always eat potatoes and think that you were nourishing your body. So why wouldn't you consider having as many different methods of connecting with your colleagues as possible also? So that's my reaction.

Yeah. And do you think this can be possible remotely? It's tough because, like, I'm. I want to build this company. I want to do this remotely because I think, selfishly, I want to just be in control of my schedule forever. And I. I like that. I was out for an hour. Like, I drove to my trainer and worked out this morning. And I Did that. And I came home and I showered at my house. And now I'm working in my office at my house. I'm not sure that I can ever give that up again. But there is definitely some. I would be lying to myself if I said that there are not some relationships and spontaneity that is built when you work in the same space together. And I think back to, like, my time when I was at Drift, as an example. David, who is the CEO, and I were very close, and it was because we sat next to each other. We would go for walks, like, every day. We'd have lunch together almost every day. And a big reason that I was able to be successful was that, like, I felt like I was in his head and that I think about that often. I'm like, man, there's no way that I would be able to have something similar today through this, Through a zoom call or whatever. And I wonder if that this is just like, the new way and we got to find new, new, new rules to work. Because at the same time, I'm not ready to. I'm. I'm not willing to give this up. Right. So I don't know what the answer is.

I don't know at this stage of your career that you have to. Like, I think the theme underneath that or the principle that I hear, which is one that I. I truly adhere, who adhere to, is you. You can't have everything. You cannot have all the things. It is a myth that if you work hard enough for long enough, you will have all of the things. And there was a time in your career where what you needed to grow, develop, and learn was to be in somebody's head, to have access to an investment in that time, energy, and resources. Now, as the head of this company, it's really lovely that you're thinking, am I allowing my team these opportunities to grow and develop meaningfully, given that I no longer want that, I cannot have everything. So if I'm picking not to have that or what am I sacrificing? Like, I don't know if the question should be, is this possible? I think the question needs to be more like, what is possible in this space? And are everyone's needs, everyone who is joining the team, everyone signing up for the team, Are they clear about that and is it enough for them?

I'm also trying to sell it. Not. Not trying to sell it. Like, I also am very intentional about conversations with the team about the benefits and the type of company. Like, hey, yes. Like, I think in anything in life, there's trade offs, there's pros and cons. And so I want everybody that works with us to have the same flexibility that I, that I have. Right. And so it's not just for me. It's not just like, oh, he's, it's his business, so he can do whatever. Like, I really don't care. I don't care when you work, I don't care where you work from. I don't care the hours, like, as long as we're doing the things. And so if you're like, if you're off because it's beautiful out and you're gonna go play golf for two and a half hours, don't care. I really don't. And I mean that genuinely. And so I'm trying to like, make that a part of the, you know, remote. Like we're gonna build a remote team and it's not, not like part of the reason for starting this business is that, hey, do you want something different? Do you want something different than working for a traditional company? Now that's also not for everyone, right? Because at the same time that means, like, I might write a long message on a Saturday and like you, I'm not expecting you to respond at all. There's no pressure to do it. But I just, work has just kind of flow like this just kind of flow flowed into every day for, for me. Right. And some people could see that as a, not a positive thing, but I think it's like, I see it as trade offs. And so we can. I want you to have the ultimate flexibility. You got your laptop, you got your stuff. Like, you can do your work from wherever as long as we meet and have expectations around that. And so I think it's like I'm trying to push that as a, as a positive to help some of that. Like, well, what, what do you want right now in your life? Do you want a business that allows you to be flexible and actually have a life and protect your mental health? And maybe this is the right opportunity for some people at that stage in their career and maybe not. And then the last thing on this, and then I'll shut up and let you say, say something. But I also think it's, it is true about the, the stage in your life. Like I often talk about, like, maybe, maybe when my kids, I'm, I love being a father. I love being around my kids. It's very important to me. Maybe when they're 18 and they're, they're gone doing their own thing, maybe I'm Like, I'm going to build the in, I want to build, be out of the house, and I want to go back to an office. This stage of my life, this season of my life, this kind of feels, and this kind of feels like the right thing to be doing.

What you're talking about that's so important is job crafting. And I think there is an idea that exists that only Dave Gerhard, who builds company from bottom up, Kara Hardin, who is her own boss, has the freedom and flexibility to craft jobs. The reality that I see is even when you work for a larger organization, there are big and small ways. Are you having meetings over lunch every day? Every single day, All. All lunches. Are you finding opportunities if being in the office is meaningful to you, to connect with colleagues and have coffees? What are the choices, big and small, that you are making in the day that align with your values and where you want to be in your career? There is no right or wrong way to structure a company in terms of. And this, the research. Come at me with the research here. This is Kara Hardin's perspective. There is no right or wrong way in terms of remote or in person. The question is, as an employee, where am I in my career? What needs do I have as an individual? What needs do I have as a professional? And will this company meet those needs? Clear is kind. So it's not. When I hear you say, like, I'm trying to sell it as a positive, for some people, it's going to be super positive. And they're going to say, this is exactly what I've longed for. I'm not going to be fussed on a Saturday if I get a message from you. There are other people that are going to be like, oh, my gosh, my hair would fall out if I started getting messages on Saturday. And the trick is, as an applicant, to know that about yourself and not should yourself into something else. Not being like, oh, I should want to work with Dave because he's, you know, flexible and innovative. Like, I should want to do that. It's being like, oh, no, I don't think that's for my disposition that doesn't meet my preferences, and applying to jobs and working in jobs that reflect those preferences without valuation on your moral good and badness.

Yeah, that's really good. There's. There's something really important here, which I think is we do talk about marketing a lot, but I think one of the most popular topics actually are the session that we did with you in the community was very popular because people want to Talk about their lives and their careers. And then like the marketing piece comes, comes second. You see a lot of job related questions or job advice and it is very tough to answer because it's so personal and it does require this lens. You need to like zoom out and think about like, where are you right now and what is the right role for you right now? And let's take this thing 1 to 3 ish years at a time and it's going to continue to evolve. I talked to a CMO on this podcast a couple weeks ago and it was 4 o' clock and he was like, all right, I gotta go. I'm going into the office right now. I've been home, taking a call. I'm like, what? I can't even imagine. My kids are about to get home, we're about to have dinner. Like, that's just obvious. Well, his kids are grown, right? And he's like, what else? What do I want to sit in the house by myself? Like, this is. I'm excited. I can't wait to go.

He's going to do wordle.

He's going to do wordle. He was excited. He, he had a meeting and he wanted to get in the office and like prep for that. And, and you know, he had one person he wanted to meet with. And I, while that's not for me right now, I can totally understand, I can totally understand that. So it's, it's important. Do you have any frameworks or reference points for people for how they should be thinking about that career? You know, everybody's like, where do you, where do you see yourself in five years? And I've never been able to answer that question. I have no idea. So how does the, how does a striver think about, like, how do we box the career?

Yeah, I just stretched it out. I'm like, oh, Dave, we're in my wheelhouse. I also have a proposition for you. After that I would love your reaction to so how a striver thinks about that. First, let's think about how we're trained to think about that. How we are trained, conditioned and programmed to think about that question is when you should have a 5, 10 year plan. Two, it should leave you being more wealthy, affluent and have more influence.

It's so true. It's like, I don't have this. Oh my God, I got to go work on my vision board tonight.

I got to go. I got. And you know what? It's got to have all the pieces. I'm going to manifest it. Success is a matter of actualizing it, that if you work hard enough you will be able to achieve it. It's like it doesn't recognize we like. It's almost like in some ways the perfect example is Covid. Like as if we have control over the world, that if we just put our best effort out there, we have control, when in reality we have all experienced a global pandemic that shows us it's simply not the case. So the conditioning in programming is you should have a plan, it should leave you better off, and you should be happy all the time as you execute it. And if you don't have any of those things, there's nothing wrong with you. So let's just name that. There is an incredible amount of guilt and shame that drivers walk around with, feeling the shoulder of simply not knowing. Not knowing who they are, not knowing what they want, and not knowing how to engage in it meaningfully.

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And so the first thing is understanding that there is no right or wrong way to be you, that there are many different parts of you that are going to want many different things and gaining awareness about your preferences, big and small. And so I think we talked about it the very first time we met. We're going to do something right now. This is something I do with almost all of my clients. I do it in my group workshops. Dave, in this moment, are you feeling hot or cold?

Hot.

Do you like spring or summer?

Both.

Movie or magazine?

Movie.

Do you have a favorite number?

No.

Those are preferences. There is no right or wrong answer.

And I was trying to give you the right answer though, right? What does she want me to say?

As I was asking those questions, My hope is that listeners were asking themselves, am I hot or cold? Do I like this? Do I want that? Like knowing that you have knowledge about yourself, that you are the expert on you, and then expanding that once you're able to identify, oh, I like apples more than oranges in the morning. I'm not a morning person on average. Like, once you start to recognize and have an awareness just about inconsequential things, you can start to pay attention to more consequential things. Do I like the way I'm being managed? Is there a time of day where I work better? Is there projects that speak louder to me? Are there skills that engage me? What am I really clear about is a no for me? Like, Dave, I'm really clear right now. A no is meetings over dinner. That's a no for me. And what we start to build slowly over time, strivers slowly, over time is an awareness of where we have yeses and where we have no's. And then we gather data big and small that will start to inform our next choices.

Let me give you an example of this. This is not specifically related to work, but I'll tell you an actual thing that happened to me today. So I know about myself now that I have to do physical activity in the morning before I touch work because it changes. You know, there's a whole, there's so much research on this. And Tony Robbins will tell you, you change, change your physical state, you know, whatever he says, like change. And it really does work, right? So I happen to look at my. I happened to pick up my phone and I happened to just go to Slack and I had a million messages and I saw Dan and I had gone some, had some back and forth about our idea for this event that we're doing, which maybe you'll speak at. Wink, wink. And I was like, it was 7:30 in the morning, I was supposed to be getting my kid off to school. And I instantly, my brain, before I had done anything else, instantly went to like, try to work on that problem. And I instantly got kind of grumpy. I was like, nope, don't do it, don't do it. Because if I open that message right now, I'm going to be sucked in and I'm going to have to give my opinion and I'm going to do it. I said, I'm going to wait. I have from 10:30 until 1:00 clock blocked off for my work time focus, work time. And I went and I went for a run, I did my workout, I had a coffee, I took a shower, I came back, I then sat, I ate, I sat at my desk. Then I approached that message and like my, the total chemistry, like how I felt was entirely different. And I got into it and I just did two and a half hours of work before I talked to you. And I've had a wildly productive day. I haven't been growing and that's something that I now know about myself where it's very easy to just like go into that bucket where I have to be intentional about like, nope, don't touch this, go do this thing first. That's something that I have to do now. And I know that about myself. Just like, you know, that's just, just one little nugget for you, right?

And it took you seven years to figure it out and to make time in your schedule to do it at least.

No doubt, at least.

So for Example let's, let's do this. So I also know that I am my very best as a mom, a daughter, a friend, a colleague. I work with my husband. So wife and colleague. When I exercise in the morning, in particular when I lift heavy objects and get my heart rate up, that is when I am at my best. I also have a seven year old and a four year old and so I know my strong preference is like an 8 o' clock workout. I also know my kids need to get to school. So right now, in the season of my life, 2 out of 5 I work out before my kids get to school and then I know my preference and I pick another part of me, I pick the mom part of me and I work out another time in the day is my aspiration. So you say at least seven years. Let's give it, I don't know, five years till my kids are walking to school by themselves. Maybe I'm gonna push them three, two, maybe two months.

Carry them. That'll be your way, right?

My son will carry my daughter. They'll like have a wagon or we'd like create a neighborhood like band of walking children. We're go back to the 80s. This is gonna be free for all. I'm not gonna know where they are. That would be great that it'll come. But I know the preference and intentionally am picking a different part of me.

I think I relate to something you said though. I think maybe this is the striver in us. Right. But even if I can't, to me it's about where I really struggle is when I can't and I don't know when I will. You mentioned like you have these two days and so you can at least like put it aside. Right. You're like, well I can't. I wish I want to right now, but I can't. It's not the day that I do that. I know that today I'm actually going to do that in the afternoon. I just need to know like I like a schedule and I like to know that it's going to happen. I don't like the. I don't know when I'm going to get this done today. Right.

A preference. That's exactly what we're encouraging people to figure out. It's like I'm cool with the ambiguity. Dave, isn't there isn't a right or wrong there? Yeah, there's just a personal preference and knowing that and coming to know that about yourself. Here are if people are like Kara, I don't even know where to start with, with these preferences. Like, I know I like ice cream more than I like popcorn, but I couldn't tell you how I am with ambiguity versus scheduling.

Yeah.

I want you to think about two questions. The first is, when you wake up in the morning, do you feel like you have enough energy to go through the ups and downs of your day? When you wake up in the morning, do you feel like you have enough energy to go through the ups and downs of your day? And my second question is, can you move throughout your day from feeling driven to reflective? And the answers to those. So that's how. That's my operational test for mental health.

And so on that first one, do you feel like you have the energy to. Sorry, what was it?

To get through the ups and downs of your day? Like, when you wake up, do you think you're gonna have enough energy to go through your day?

And that's like, instantly. Like when you're brushing your teeth, like, are you thinking about that?

You wake up, you like, you're like, oh, I didn't get enough sleep. I didn't. And then like, when you're in your day, 30 minutes in, are you like, okay, I've got enough in the tank.

Or like, compared to you just finished one of those heavy lifting workout days and you're like, ha, nothing I do later is going to be harder than that. And I feel amazing right now. And so, oh, cool, I just unlocked something. Like, maybe I just need to rearrange the order of these things.

Right. So we want. Just so you have these two questions and it's like, well, on the days where you do feel like you have enough energy, what did you do? What did you do? What did it look like? What as important as what did you do? What did you not do? How did you think? How did you approach your day when you are able to move from driven to reflective? And by that, I mean on Slack, Deep with Dan, going into details of things to drinking a coffee and really enjoying prepping for your golf pod. Like, really a different zone.

Yeah.

When you were able to switch into relaxation and back to driven, what are you doing? What are you not doing? How are you approaching things? How are you thinking about things? There are signs there. There are clues about your preferences, your needs, your dispositions.

Yeah. It's like. It's just like business, right? You, like, gotta look. You look back on, like when. When you won. How did you get new clients? How did you get new customers? What happened? Oh, well, we did this thing, and when I do this, this Thing happens, it's, man, this is such a good topic because it's very applicable to anybody. And it is true. You can't be a good husband, partner, coworker, founder, whatever it is, right? Board member if you don't know yourself. The hard part though is it seems easier to know yourself later in life as you grow and mature and become more comfortable. Is this something that you're 23, you're brand new, you're new to the workforce. I could see that being a harder place for you to speak up and be like, actually, I don't work well this way. And it's like, well, hold on here, you know, new guy, like, so like, is this just like, we're older, we're wiser, we've had a little bit of success, we're comfortable, or can this be applied to anybody?

So I have a couple of thoughts. One is, this goes back to the very start of our conversation where we reserve the right to change our mind early, often and easily. And so whatever you articulate as a need a want to your 20 year old self, you get to reevaluate as a 20 year old in a day, a 20 year old in five days, a 30 year old, a 40 year old, a 70 year old, you are constantly going to be shifting and growing and learning and you are entitled to change right alongside that learning. Gen Z is far more vocal than we, than we imagine anyway.

I haven't noticed that. Actually anyone who's on my. It's not been my experience, certainly not right.

They're like, setting boundaries is ain't no thing. Like, if this is the millennial in the call that I want to talk to about setting setting boundaries, I think what's hard about knowing yourself even as like an esoteric concept is we are many things and the idea that we can just like pinpoint. Like there are a number of late 20 year olds who are like, I just don't know who I am. Or people that learn something, like they come out of a big relationship or they get fired or they're off work and they're like, I don't know who I am. And so I've almost stopped thinking in terms of an absolute, you are X. And that's why I lean to preferences. Okay, well, what do you know you prefer? Without making a bold identity statement, what do you know you prefer? Because you are a composite and compilation of those preferences and there is no right and wrong answer to whether or not you are hot or cold. Now, if physiologically you are ill, I'm So sorry. There is perhaps a normal temperature you might be, but it's not moral. Whether or not you prefer to work remotely and have flexibility or in the office and have mentorship or be a mentor isn't a question of morality, value or worth. It is a question of preference, life stage and context. And so the more we can divorce for people a sense of value and worth from their preferences, the easier it is to understand. Oh, like I'm valuable even when I'm not at a top 100 company. I'm valuable even when I am between work, I know who I am. I know my preferences and my needs even while I am looking for my new position. I also want to put this thought to you because it's been in my head this whole time. So can I u turn us a little bit, please? I have this new theory, I have this new idea that there is something of a distinction between the content of the work we do. I'm going to be a marketer, I'm going to brand, I'm going to strategize. I'm going to understand and interpret consumer insight and data. And I'm calling it like the real work of work, which is developing an awareness about those preferences and about how our learned behavior, how we learn to find success shows up in relationship at work. And so the example we talked about earlier with, you know, I know this marketing idea is going to bomb, but I don't want to bring it up to my boss because I'm a people pleaser. Like, in my mind, the real work of work is identifying you're a people pleaser and developing the skills and resources to approach situations differently. What's your reaction to that?

Yeah, I see it all the time. I see people. People will write anonymous questions in Exit 5 and they basically know the answer, but they're writing it out because they want someone else to tell them like, that this is okay. It's like, hey, I've been, I've been at my company for, you know, for, for a year and a half now. My boss takes credit for all my work. I've never gotten promoted. I'm not at all like, what do you think I should do? And I'm just like, is this a serious question? Like, you should leave. But when you're on the inside of that, it's like, it's very hard to call that out for yourself. And so I think this does all tie back together. It's like you got to know your, you got to know your style. Like as an example, I now tell people that the way that I give feedback is very fast and very direct and very specific. And I explain, basically, the more that I've gone on, the. The more I am aware of how I work and I try to explain how I work to others. So when I work that way, it's not like, whoa, what's his problem? And then because I'm like, I told you, it's going to be like, this is how I am. Right. I think it feels related a little bit to that is like, knowing how you are. And I've worked at a company in the past where we all did some type of personality tests, right? I've done discs, the colors predictive index. We've done other ones, and I think those were great. Examp. Th. Those are great things to just give everybody an insight to. Like, oh, interesting. We all are different. We all work differently. And even though, like, car. I may have this, like, buddy, buddy relationship with Cara, on the surface, actually, we're completely different. Like, I. As we talked about earlier, like, I'm okay with changing my mind. I'm okay with making fast decisions. Right. I worked with somebody who was my counterpart, and, like, she was completely the opposite. Right. She was, like, very slow to make decisions, and here's why. And I think it's bringing that level of understanding into how each person works is. Is so important to understand your. Your style and how you're going to communicate. It doesn't make it any easier. It doesn't make it any easier to, like, gulp. All right, I'm gonna. I am a people pleaser, but I'm gonna tell my boss that, like, this thing is broken. That is not easy to do. Right?

Yeah. I think that's the real work of work. I think the things that keep people up at night, the things that ad nausea we replay over and over in our heads, are the situations where we either lacked awareness about who our preferences. I was going to say who we are. We lacked awareness about our preferences and needs, or we had that awareness, but we don't have the resources to do something different. Like when you say, I know I give direct, specific. I'm going to add the word blunt. You didn't say it, but I made up that it was there. Feedback.

Oh, it's definitely there.

You're like, oh, it's there. I'm like a warm hug. Like, you'll know you're getting feedback, but it feels really loving. That's like the therapeutic feedback.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's like, so this makes sense.

I don't. I don't I'm not like, mean about it. I'm just direct. It's like, I don't like, you know, I don't like. There's this rapper, Common, he has a line, he says, if I don't like it, I don't like it. That'll. That doesn't mean that I'm hating. And I always think about that all the time. It's like I'm just telling you, I, you ask my reaction to it, I don't like it.

That's what it is.

That's not a personal attack.

No, no.

And so however, however people don't like, I, I have now learned that I have to explain that, that I like. You know, that's how I do it.

That's the work of work. The work of work for you is understanding that about yourself and finding ways not to change who you are, but to make your, to increase your ability to connect across different. Not just personality styles, but preferences. And then the work for the other person is going, oh, Dave doesn't hate me. This is how Dave communicates. And that work to me comes from everything we learned developmentally. Like, how did you learn to give feedback and how did someone else learn to receive feedback? And strivers feel most safe, secure and connected when they're getting results, when people approve of them, when they're being accurate and when there's stability. And so for you, getting the result, being direct, being clear, being concise, that's the focus. Whereas for someone else who need, like for me, if you didn't give me that, I want to say, warning explainer right at the top, because I'm someone who seeks connection and approval. If it was just a short, curt thing, I would be spinning and my work would be, and this is, I think, the real, this is the real kicker. Not everyone has a boss like Dave that knows how to do the explainer. The vast majority of people don't.

Well, I know it now, let's be honest, I know it now because I have.

Okay, but didn't. So this is the seven year old wound, isn't it?

No doubt.

You gave really direct feedback and it sent someone like me spinning.

Well, there was a time where I was managing a team of creatives. Ah, imagine that.

Yeah, Creative soul.

Oh my God. Creatives need the warm. Creatives need the warm heart. What do you mean? I just spent six days working on this and you don't like it? Like, I don't know what else.

It's a respect, right? It's a reflection of their spirit. So in the absence of someone who knows to give an explainer. The real work of work is understanding your worth and your value is separate from someone else's approval, is separate from how they deliver their stuff. I think that the thing that people struggle the most with is understanding when they get tripped up. Like, it's the direct feedback. It's when someone's so focused on results that they miss me and then what to do about it.

Yeah, this is great. I'm just writing the title of this episode in my notes.

What's it going to be? Is it going to be that time I gave feedback seven years ago?

No, it's going to be doing the work of work with Carol.

And I've been trying to find the distinction because I don't want to be misleading. I think pushing for deliverables, learning how to interpret consumer feedback, navigating like the actual demands and competencies of marketing is work. That's work, but that's not what keeps us up at night. What keeps us up at night is this question of, am I good enough? Am I valuable? Am I liked? Am I going to get the result? And to me, when we can assure quiet, support, engage those parts of ourselves to know that we are valuable no matter how the deliverable turns out, that's when we are most able to succeed. That's when we are most able to know our preferences, craft our job and excel.

I think about this a lot, which is I think the marketing and the business part is actually easy for everybody that's listening at the company. It's usually we can win and be successful with lots of channels. Like, you know, Kara, if you let me own marketing for your brand, like, we could blow it up. No doubt. I have no doubt about that. It's the people, it's the internal stuff. You know, all of my work challenges and things we missed always come back to internal relationships, politics, working with people, team management. That. That is it. And this is a really important topic because, you know, lots of people here work on teams, work with other people, want to be a manager. And this is a whole element of like, yeah, this stuff really, really matters. It doesn't matter if you're the greatest marketer, if you're the SEO expert, if you can't influence others, if you can't relate to others, if you can't have empathy, if you can't understand how other people work like you're going to have in that world, then you need to just, like, go be a solopreneur. Just go start a solo SEO business. Be the direct crazy SEO person charge prices and work directly with somebody. But if you're going to work on a team with other people, all of these things matter. And again, this is the seven year plus, you know, wounds and stuff. It's like, oh, yeah, the more that I go on that. That really matters. It doesn't matter. That doesn't matter. If I have this great idea for us at exit 5, it matters that I can get the team to be excited about it and execute on it and want to do it and take it, or else I should just go do it myself. Right. All this stuff really matters.

Full circle to why you needed to have an hour conversation with Dan, why texting was insufficient and as a framework. So we have a couple of frameworks. We've introduced high level. What are your preferences? Like, what are your preferences? What are your needs? How do you know that? Well, you can pay attention to the energy you have when you wake up. Does it get you. Do you feel like you have enough to get through the day? Are you able to move from driven to reflective? Another framework for people to understand the work of work for them is in an interaction that feels smooth, in an interaction that feels sticky, in one that feels downright friction filled. What's mine? What am I bringing to this conversation? What are my vulnerabilities? Oftentimes, by the way, they're related to your strengths, which I can elaborate on in a second. So what are my strengths? What are my vulnerabilities? What's mine, what is theirs? What can I make up? Are they bringing? That has everything to do with them. And Dave likes results. Everything to do with them. And then how is that showing up between us? What's mine, what's yours, and what's between us.

Yeah, that's great. Another. I just want another thing that I wrote down in my notes is another thing that I've learned is that I need to sleep on things. And that's a throat. That's like an intentional, like, throttle or restraint on myself from being somebody who is very impulsive and is likely to change my mind. And I do get very, like, hot and heavy about a particular idea or thing. And then I will literally wake up the next morning and be like, no, that's. That's terrible. Why would I. No, I don't want to do that.

Right. So it's actually what I heard. There was two things. The first is I need to be regulated. Like, I need my body to have had rest, to have sleep, to have moved. Like, I need to be regulated. I Can't be sort of in turbo mode to have perspective, which neurologically tracks. The other thing I heard is you know your, you know your preferences, you know that you're impulsive and there is a part of you that gets wrapped up. And so you've created a guardrail which is not in the moment for anyone listening that has children or women with our cycles. Like there are times when it is harder to take a step back and knowing that about yourself and building in, if not a rule, then at least a guardrail. Like you and I talk about guardrails a lot, Dave. This is a guardrail. Anytime you're feeling so hot under the collar that you feel like you have to deal with something immediately, it's a sign that you might need to sleep on it rather than dealing with it.

No doubt you have that happen once a month. Like that's. And nobody. You can't just like, it's not going to be, like it's not going to be your slack, you know, your slack status update. So everyone knows.

Everyone knows. I think normalize it. You know what, you know what is wild is I was in a meeting recently and there was a woman who had a vaso motor response. Like she had a hot flash.

Yeah.

And it was all women on the call. And she literally articulated, I am so grateful.

Right.

That I can do this. And I was like, well, first of all, you didn't choose it.

Right.

And second of all, like, you're a hero for staying on the call. That looks like the most uncomfortable thing I've ever experienced. We can do a whole episode on how.

Well, just to feel. To feel, you know, to be on a call with all women where you're like, oh, I can say this, I.

Can say this, I can say this as opposed to. And then, and then her next thought was, thank God I'm not in a presentation to shareholders. That was her next thought. And I was like, gosh, right.

Like that would it like that. It's sad that that would have had some impact on the. The outcome of that.

Right.

Yeah.

So knowing your stages, knowing your preferences, knowing your limitations, all. All of that matters to crafting to the extent that you can, in the context of your life, a job and work for you that's meaningful.

This is so good to give people the space to be able to take a step back and listen to this episode and give the day to day work. It's very easy. Just be in it. Go, go, go. When you. This is almost like a context to then think about the work within like, you know, am I overreacting to this message? Because I'm like, didn't get enough sleep, I didn't work out, I'm grumpy, today's not the day. Sleep on it, go work out, address it tomorrow. And I also think a lot of things can wait a day or so.

Way more than we think they can.

It's really interesting. I learned this lesson. This is something I still struggle with, but I learned this lesson all the time. When I'm, let's say I'm away or I'm traveling. I used to notice this all the time. When I had a larger team, I would be on a flight or unreachable and I would see a message that's like, hey, you got a sec? And then I wouldn't respond to that message. And eight hours later that same person would be like, nevermind, figured it out. And you're like, oh, interesting. And things can wait. And especially now, if you know what we talked about, you often need to let them wait. So take a beat. Don't make everything so urgent. Right.

Again, you make sense. The impulse that it's urgent is not only reinforced by the work culture and people around you, it's also our stress response. Like the more worked up we are, the more vigilant we become. The more it feels like we need to look, the more it feels important to look. So it's almost like the stronger the urge, the greater the need to sit on your hands for a little bit. And that feels really uncomfortable. And I know something out of 10 times, three out of 10 times, it is actually urgent, but for the most part it isn't. And practicing the discomfort, practicing moving through the distress of not letting yourself respond right away so that you can gain experience, finding that perspective in that space can be really freeing.

Yeah, I'm trying to do that. I'm trying to specifically with like my email and stuff. I'm trying to really try to be intentional about it. It's very easy for me to just always have my inbox open and just like nibble at it all day and just like get sent in a hundred different directions. I'm, I have much more. I notice my stress is regulated differently. Everything is the way I'm, I'm in much more in control when I go twice a day and I treat it as a task, like for 30 minutes. Right now I'm going to go and do email. That is way better for me than if I'm just kind of always responding to stuff. My last question, we can end on this one. Is your phone still in a closet somewhere? Well, no. What's that? A how. What is that? A landline? A Canadian.

I know. Do you even. I. I lost my mind. My daughter was make believe calling me. And you know what she did? She did that. She did not do this. She did not do this. I was like, what are you voguing?

Do they have. So they don't have cell phones. Cell phones in Canada anymore.

This is like, this was the phone though. This was her cell phone. Like, this was her. She was making a cell phone. Cell phone with her hand. She did this. She did not pretend to hold onto a phone or do this. She doesn't even know what this is. So what's interesting, Dave, is that it's, you know, it has been a journey because my, as my children get older, they have different activities and different polls. So, for example, last weekend on Saturday, it was my son's seventh birthday party and God help me, my husband and I rented a community center and hosted 227 year olds. Like, what were we thinking? We were not thinking. And we forgot forks for cake. So at some point I was like, okay, we better find forks. Or like 22 kids or just hand, they're just going to eat this Costco vanilla cake. But I needed my phone. I needed my phone that day because we were coordinating and doing things. And the difference to my mental health Sunday, Monday, Tuesday of this week was noticeable for me. So other people, again, this is a preference for me. I need to unplug because of my job, because of what I hear, because of what I do. I need space and peace. And for me, that comes from putting my phone away specifically for like 48 hours. Other people might not need that.

No, I need it. I'm with you. I need it. I need it at night, I need it in the morning, and I need it on the weekends. I try to treat it more like work now and be intentional about it. If I don't try to touch it after 5 o' clock and leave it until like 7 or 8 the next day, once everybody's out of the house, I'm in a much, much better spot with it for sure.

You're like literally three months away from a landline. I recognize this pattern and I'm for it.

Like, I would be down for a flip phone.

Okay. Like a boop boop, boop for H, boop boop boop boop for high send. Like a razor.

Yeah. If I could text Leah, if I could text and call Leah and just have it. If I needed it, then, yes, I would be fine with that.

There is a freedom that it's, of course, a privilege to be able to opt out in this way. And I'm not saying to not opt out of, you know, the world more generally. There are things we have to witness and participate in from a recalibrate your nervous system perspective. It has been one of the most effective things I've ever done.

Well, so that's the problem with that. You say that online and everyone's like, oh, what privilege to not okay that. 20 years ago, that was. Nobody had a cell phone. Like, nobody was saying it. Then there was, you know, you would. You would read the news the next day or watch it on the TV or something. Like, even when was my first 15 years ago.

We are many things at the same time. I'm profoundly privileged, right? And I'm engaged and I'm an advocate. But squishing my identities and my complexities to one choice and one behavior, that's insufficient for me, that's inaccurate for me. And I know that we do that to one another. I guess what I'm saying is when that comes to me, I take it on board. I hear it, and I allow myself to make sense. I allow myself to honor my preferences and my dignity.

And I live my life like my first job. I would go home at the end of the day and I wouldn't check my email until I got to work the next day. Imagine, Right? No idea. No idea. There's something to be said with that and to slow down a little bit. I also think you do better work. And I'm not great at this. I don't mean to be preaching. I am very not good at this. I'm working on it. But I think there's something to, like, slowing down a little bit when everything is reactive and everything is urgent. First, like, imagine if you left work and your email was just on the box on your desk and you got there the next day and you said, all right, what do we got? Oh, shoot.

What came in overnight? What came in overnight instead of like.

8 o' clock at night sitting on the couch hanging out with your family. And you see that message from your boss and, like, your sleep now is tanked because you're now anxious and stressed out about it. Just deal with it tomorrow.

Right, well, so if anyone's interested in reading more about this, Cal Newport has done extensive work. He writes for the New Yorker. He has a email slope. That is where I go.

Okay, good one. All right. Cara, this is awesome.

It's Always so nice to connect with you.

Yeah, that was great. I took all my notes. I learned a lot. And I'll talk to you soon. All right, thanks.

I can't wait. Thanks, everyone.

And everybody that's listening, go find Kara on LinkedIn. Send her a message, connect with her. It's always the best part of this. And we'll see you around. All right, Car. See you.

Exit.

Foreign.

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