#62: Chad Knipschild - Navy Veteran to Product Marketer

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All right, Chad, don't blow it. Now that we're recording, I don't want you to turn into Interview. Interview Chad. So I just was asking you for the proper pronunciation of your name, which is something that I often forget to do. And then I'll go record an intro and be like, shit, I have no idea how to pronounce this person's name.

No man, appreciate you asking Dave and happy to be here first of all. But yeah, so Chad and then last name. The easiest way to think about it is like cheese Nips and then child. So Nips child right off the bat, Chad Nips child man.

All right, so you and I got connected because I want to give a shout out to my friend Tom Wentworth who is the CMO of a great company that you, you work at right now called Recorded Future. And I remember him referencing for a while like talking about somebody that he hired from, for his marketing team. We've all. He's always kind of been like, I don't want to say like push the envelope because like I don't want to be corny with it but like just to hire people with non traditional backgrounds into marketing and. And I find out he hires this guy and I sends me his profile and I'm like, this dude was in the, worked at the Navy for like 10 years. He's a veteran and now he's working on product marketing at this tech company. And you and I ended up doing a call Just to get to know each other and chat about marketing. I go into the new year and I started thinking about I'm going to do this podcast. And you were immediately on my short list of people that I wanted to talk to and just see where this conversation goes. But what do you do for work right now? Let's start there.

Yeah, so right now I'm a product marketer. And what does that mean? Right. I think a lot of people ask that. And it's been super fun for me. As you mentioned, transitioned out of the Navy straight into this role and. Right. It's building kind of go to market strategies. How do we talk about. In our case, it worked for a quarter future. So how do we talk about intelligence? And it's been super fun and kind of bringing all the content and collateral together and then helping the product team and sales and yeah, a lot of pieces to it, but really just a coordinator, a collaborator and. And yeah, it's been a lot of fun thus far. Been in the role six months now.

Okay, so you were in the Navy. How did you get into the Navy straight out of high school? Did you go to Naval Academy? How did. What was your path?

Yeah, so kind of interesting story. I actually was at the University of Maryland, so I was getting my degree in environmental science, of all things. And subsequently through another. A long story long, if you will. I was doing physics research for. @ CERN, so the linear Particle Accelerator. And I got recruited to be a nuclear officer in the Navy and basically go in submarines. So I started off my path, went straight out, graduated college, went into a program called Officer Candidate School. So if you go to college and don't do ROTC or the academy, that's where you go for training, do your basic training, and then went to nuclear power school, where I found out, in fact, I am not that great at memorizing facts, nor am I great at memorizing formulas. Ultimately failed out of that school. That's kind of what led me to the rest of my path. So. Yeah, so you went to Wild story.

You went to Maryland just as an undergrad. Like you're a kid in high school, you decide where you want to go to college. You're from the area, you go to Maryland. Like, did you think about military in high school? Was it something that you were passionate about or fascinated by in some way?

Yeah, that's a good question, Dave. And I would say it was kind of on the back burner. So my dad had enlisted in the Navy. My grandpa was in the Navy. My other grandpa on the other side was in the army and kind of a slew of folks who had done military service. But it wasn't like my go to. Basically I came out of school and jokingly I loved studying environmental science and being outside. And I was like, wait, I don't know if I can actually make a living digging soil samples or identifying plant species. And I was afforded this opportunity, so I took it and ran.

At what point at Maryland did you decide that you were going to go and do this? It must have had a moment walking back from a class or something that you decided this is the path you're going to take. Take me into that point.

Yeah. So I was a poor college kid, you know, kind of scraping by. Had a few, like, lifeguard at the pool, had a few jobs. To be blunt, when I walked out of job fair and the recruiter's like, hey, I can offer you bonus money. You know, the poor college come, like, you know what? Not only can I, like, continue my family's naval service, like, it seems honorable, a great path for me, but. And I can actually, like, afford to buy a new T shirt. That's kind of cool.

So you, you find this recruit, like there's an on campus recruiter, there's some cash to go and join. And then the actual bridge from Maryland to the Navy was going to nuclear power school.

Yep.

Which today.

You want to know what day that I realized that there was such a thing called nuclear power schools? It was today.

Yeah. I can't say I knew about it either. And on the outside, right, like, the submarine thing sounded super cool. Like, do all these like super cool spy missions in a big black tube with all your best friends?

Yeah, I guess so. I'd be like, I'm claustrophobic as hell. I don't even know if I can think about getting into one of those things. And what happens from there? So you graduate college and you go to this school. Like, where even is this and what is.

Yeah.

So what does the curriculum look like.

At nuclear power school? So let's frame out what power school is like. Right. You know, the blue plastic chairs you had in like, you know, elementary school, maybe middle school. Super uncomfortable. Kind of smaller maybe than you were even, you know, as a young preteen. So that with white tables and you're sitting there for hours on end just studying nuclear physics, how to run the plant, how submarines work, all that kind of stuff for hours on end. I think a lot of people think the military, hey, you get in trouble, you do some push ups. That's kind of like that Persona, except a nuclear power school. When you don't do well in a test, you have more study hours. So imagine you're doing your regular job, studying, learning for 40 hours a week. Like me, I didn't get great grades, so all of a sudden I have 20 extra hours a week, so many extra hours a week stacked onto my schedule. And I'm sitting there with a pen and paper in this uncomfortable blue chair writing over and over and over again, trying to memorize everything.

Was it hard to do that? Like at that point in your life, you know, you're, I would say the average 22 year old person, 21, 22, fresh out of school. You know, I'm thinking about like, I was like living in an apartment with four guys, some shitty apartment in Boston, and we're going out and we're partying or trying to meet girls and do whatever. Was it hard to look around and be like, what am I doing right now? Or like, did you see a bigger purpose and a bigger path? And that was the thing that like helped you kind of do that because post college, like I think a normal person, not to classify you as not normal, but like, it doesn't seem like the normal path that I think a lot of people would want to take.

Or be patient with and put up with.

Yeah. So I think going into it, I knew the school was going to be very hard and quite frankly, I wanted that challenge. But to your point, it was difficult. Like I also was sharing an apartment with a few other guys. We were all in school together, but we're all trying to balance this young Persona. Like, hey, do we go out and drink or do we try and like study for a few more hours? Or you know, how do you, how do we balance this? Like what? The real world is trying to figure all of it out, but I think at the end of the day it kind of came down to just, quite frankly, drive. Not wanting to quit the entire time, just plowing through and, and even though I wasn't doing well towards the end, and spending, you know, a hundred hours a week in this super uncomfortable blue chair, you just gotta press on, right? And the only way to press on is to take action and do something about it. I think that was my, my attitude the entire time.

So you made it through this school.

So I, I actually failed out the week before graduation. So that was really tough, quite frankly. And when you fail out, kind of the Navy says, are you have to go to a board? Are we going to keep you you're going to leave and you kind of have to present yourself in such a way. And for me, I wanted to stay. I felt like I hadn't yet proven myself and I hadn't gotten what I came for and really given back or learned the skills that I wanted.

When you say stay, like, stay as part of the Navy overall, like, you would have found something else to go and do. So, like, when you go to this school, do you sign on for X amount of time? Like, are you getting paid? They. Whether you fail or not, whether you make it through this school or not, like, are you part of a group? Okay, well, this didn't work out for Chad and so now we're gonna, we're gonna try him over here. Like, how does that actually work? I've.

Yeah, so it's a combination of things and I would say, like, again, it kind of boils down to what do you as a person want? So I did sign a five year contract to go into this program. But that aside, I mean, you can, the Navy technically can still let you go if they deem you're not a great, don't. You don't belong in the Navy. They can let you go at any point. But it's a combination of drive and like networking and figuring out like, hey, where do you fit? And then the Navy gets to stay as well. So for me, I took that upon myself to say, like, okay, I don't know hardly anything about the Navy. Right. I'm 21 years old. I'm trying to figure things out. Quite frankly, I just went down to networking, started talking to a ton of people, the different sectors, and kind of what would make sense for me.

Where are you living? Are you living like off campus? Is there a campus somewhere that you're going to?

Yeah, so we're, we're actually in Charleston, South Carolina. Real rough place to be, you know, especially As a young 22 year old guy, you know, Got it.

So that's where the school is based. And so you, you're kind of there. And then outside of the classroom stuff, did you have, I mean, when I think of like military service and you signing up for a five year contract, I don't think of just a guy sitting there in a, in a blue chair. I think of like, you're also getting up at five in the morning and you got to go run and work out. Like, was there a physical component to this or was it at this point in time was just kind of all schoolwork?

So there was a physical component, but it was like, the school is more about school, quite frankly. So, you know, we have, like, workouts before class occasionally, but, hey, go for a 5k run or things like that. And I should say, too, like, I've been a swimmer my entire life and kind of dedicated to the whole fitness thing. So quite frankly, like, the physical side was never. It made me happy, let's put it that way.

Right, so you were doing these things anyway, regardless of, like, whether it was a part of a certain type of regimen or something.

Exactly, yeah.

Okay, so you. You fail out of nuclear power school, you have this conversation with the board, obviously, based on what I know about your history now, the board said, okay, you make your case. Where did you go from there?

Even before I got to the board, there were some months in between where you're like, I don't know what I'm doing with my life. And that's where I just took the initiative and again started networking. I ended up linking up with, at the time, it's. He was the intelligence Director on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and through a mentor now I met him and had a great meeting with him, and he's like, you know what? I think you'd be a great fit to be an intelligence officer. And that kind of helped seal the deal for that board. And. And off I went down the intelligence pipeline.

First of all, for the average person with no familiarity with the military, what is an intelligence director? And what is the Joint Chiefs of Staff?

Yeah, sure. So this admiral, he was in charge of intelligence, all things intelligence for, and acted as the intelligence advisor for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, which the Joint Chiefs of Staff is basically all the top admirals in general. So top brass, if you will, all the top senior leaders of the military who get together and advise Congress, make big decisions of like, hey, we need to change this policy, or we should or should not go to war. All of those types of decisions are made at the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

That's the Navy, the Army, the Marine.

Exactly. Everyone all together. Okay. Air Force, Space Force, now Space Force, that is.

How the hell did you meet this guy? Like, you didn't. I'm assuming you didn't just like, you know, cold DM him on LinkedIn?

Yeah. You know, these are before the heavy days of LinkedIn. Right. So this is old school networking. Straight up picking up the phone and texting a few buddies, and then the buddy leads to another older gentleman who was a retired commander, intelligence officer at the time. And. And right. Like, down the path I went.

But yeah, what are the common threads between environmental science, nuclear power, and eventually getting into the intelligence world. Because I, I don't know enough about them to patch them together. But I bet if we dug into there, there's something that's connected, you know.

I love that you asked that because I was actually kind of anticipating this question too. But when I was thinking back about like, man, what is my story here? I think what it comes down to is process and interconnectedness of systems, right. In environmental science, I was studying how the wetlands supports or how different plants support a wetland, right? Like everything contributes to something. Some plants are taking on different nutrients, yada, yada, yada. In power school, right? The nuclear side of things, it's an engineered system, right? You have this big black box that produces nuclear energy and it makes a submarine go and provide sustains life to include oxygen underwater for months at a time. And then you have the intelligence side, which is again, a conglomerate of building information and analysis because it's all connected and building what is like ultimately the system of information and then providing that to kind of the higher ups and superiors to help them make decisions.

So you love process.

I love building process, Yeah, I love building process.

You don't like adhering to someone else's mindless process for the sake of it, but if you can build it.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Okay, so then what? You have a conversation with this guy, he helps you get a job. What happens?

Yeah, so then he helps. I go to the board, I get accepted into the intel community, and I go off to school. And then ultimately fast forward a few months after school, we don't really get too much of a choice. We kind of just get told, hey, this is what you're going. We call it needs in the Navy. So if you could imagine, if someone is like, Dave, you know what, I have an open role at this job. And guess what? You're going there.

Best of luck, because you're on this five year contract. And when, how many years into this five year contract were you at this point?

Yeah, so at this point I'm about a year and a half in.

Okay, so you're like, I didn't do that. I didn't finish a nuclear power school thing. I got three and a half years left in this. You're going off to another school now. And it's just like everyone that goes into the intelligence program has to start with this type of school and training.

Yep, exactly. Everybody has to get baselined. And I think that is a nice part coming from the military. And we'll talk about this, maybe a little later about like how the military is so structured and it does build that training in. So you can't go somewhere and expect. Well, sometimes you can't go somewhere and say, hey, like, I haven't been trained. Like, you are an intelligence officer, you went to this school, you have the thumbs up. Imagine like, hey, you went to marketing school. Like, you have the thumbs up. I know you can write a blog. Right? Right.

An ad that makes a lot of sense where it's like, everyone has to go through this. There's kind of just a basic. And probably basic is the wrong word, but like everyone's got to go through this program first and then from there you're gonna, you're gonna go on. So talk to me about what, what is that school? Like, how long is it? What types of stuff are you getting trained on?

Yeah, six months. And think, think about it all as like a combination of understanding risk management and then how to write, like how to conceptualize and build analytical products, how to take all these, again, kind of building these systems, right? Taking all sorts of different pieces of information and building it for some sort of purpose. And then the real key is making some sort of assessment. How do we use that information to kind of predict the. For the future and kind of the civilian speak. It's data analysis. Using data analysis to make decisions.

So based on what I know about you so far, that was probably when it all kind of came together where you're like using all of these things that you like, digging into the root cause of something, creating process around it, using that to fit to go and solve a problem. What did you do that kind of clicked for you within the six months that you were there?

Yeah, it was a combination of those soft skills, kind of a, you know, like the free thinking and the ability to kind of dig my own hole. Where and how do I solve this problem? And I have the freedom to do so. And also it's entirely on me. I have to drive myself and eventually, you know, we'll talk in a bit, but drive a team to have this certain analytical approach and make sure my I's are dotted and my t's are crossed and if it's wrong. Right. There can be pretty severe problems or reactions to doing something the wrong way.

So everybody's in this six month class. Do you remember some of the courses or classes or sessions that you took? If you have like names of them that you, that you can share and remember? Because I'm thinking of like my mind is thinking of this Like a accelerated MBA program where, like, everyone's going there for six months. We got to teach them, you know, we got to talk about accounting, marketing, strategy, finance, all this stuff. What are the courses?

You know, I can't talk too much about, like, the specific names of the courses and exactly, like, what we learn, but what I can say is, like, it's this balance of COVID everything without going too deep, because eventually you're going to get into that first job, and we just need you to be aware of it. We need to tell you about all the different types of intelligence, and we need to tell you a little bit about all the different types of warfare and what the purpose is and that kind of stuff. So, you know, if you had to again, correlate it, exactly what you said, hey, a quick mba or let's do like a quick once over for marketing or a quick once over for sales. Just so you have an idea of what you're getting yourself into. Because I think a lot of the. At least on the military side, a lot of it's learned on the job too, and get qualified as you go.

To this day, even when you're in this program, you're not allowed to talk to many people about what you're learning and what you're doing. Is that easy to do? Is that natural for you to do?

You know, I think you get taught that and you learn, like, how to segment information. And I think. I think it can be good and bad. I think it can be a struggle sometimes for some people, particularly, especially when you, like, start doing certain things or start seeing certain things. There's a million books out there about, you know, all this kind of, whether it's special operations or CIA stuff. But everything that comes out has to ultimately get vetted by someone else. You know, are you allowed to or are you not allowed to say that? And eventually you get much, much better at it. That kind of side of the house is learned on the job, and it can be a struggle for some folks. And I think some folks do actually struggle with withholding certain information inside.

So you go through this program, you end up supporting SEAL teams. But what was the path to get there?

Another kind of wild story. So my first job is actually I'm the first intelligence officer at this cyber kind of command base, more or less.

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Actually, wait, another question. Like, are you getting paid during this time? Like you have?

Oh yeah. So you're getting. We're on a salary, so we're, you know, I'm making military pay. The Entire time.

So, yeah, like that. Like a shitty pay. Like when you say military pay. Or is like. Or is. Like, there's levels that you can progress. Like, everyone is kind of at X level.

And. Yeah.

Grass and get promoted and.

Yeah. So everybody, at least in the Navy, it's, you know, think of it pretty linearly. So, Dave, if you're, like, way better than I am, we're going to move at the same pace. It can be good again. Can be good and bad. It gives people the chance to actually go through school. So if there's a backup and you're in the class ahead of me, like, hey, we're going to promote the same. But at the same time, it can be frustrating sometimes where it's like, at least initially, where, again, hey, Dave, you're, like, crushing me. You're, like, way smarter. You get it? And I'm sitting here in my blue chair trying to make. Make things work.

Right. Well, I mean, it's so different than the. Than the world that I can say we now, like, we're both in this tech world where, like, you find out what somebody else is making, and you're like, wait, what? And it's. There's definitely pros and cons to each of that. And then, like, you have a lot of attrition at the company because someone realizes what they could get paid. They could be getting paid X. So there's probably pros and cons of.

Each side of it.

Okay, so anyway, take me through that.

So my first job is actually, like, I mentioned, so I'm the intelligence officer at the Cyber Command, and it's all, you know, fun and Gucci and I creating a ton of process. Quite frankly, I knew nothing about computers, so ears wide open, just trying to take as much in as I can from the folks around me. But ultimately, like, I joined the Navy to deploy. So I start asking around a ton, hey, like, are there any. And we call them augments, right? So you basically would just go off for a few months and go on a ship or what have you. So I'm asking around, I keep going, told, no, no, no, no. And, like, no is not the answer I want. Like, I'm going to keep going until I get a yes.

Why did you want to deploy so badly?

I just felt like that's what I was looking for. I felt like I really wanted what I was doing to matter. And I also felt like I couldn't get out of the Navy without deploying. And here I am, you know, super eager, sitting at the Cyber Command, doing A lot of great work. Like, it was a ton of fun and I learned a lot. But ultimately, like, I wanted to get out there. Sitting at home is tough.

Out there can mean different things.

Right.

It doesn't necessarily mean, like, you're on the front lines like, you know, blowing up a house.

I wanted to be operational. I wanted to be like participating in active operations no matter where they were around.

I said I was going to compare to, which is almost like you have this skill, but all you get to do is apply it to, like, practice. You just go into practice every day and you seem like obviously a driven and competitive person. You're like, I want to take this and I want to actually apply it. I want to help us win in some capacity. Was it something like that?

Absolutely. Yep. I wanted to get after it, quite frankly.

Sure. He wants to get after it. Classic. There's not some, like, standard, like, okay, you will deploy at X. Like, you had to actually go around and lobby, like, hello, me, Chad. I would like to be one of the ones. Ones that deploys, like, how does that.

Actually, yeah. So the way it works, again, I'm not the Cyber Command, and basically we call it shore duty. So somehow I ended up in a shore duty position where shorty. So I'm cool. I'm staying at my location. You know, I was in Virginia at the time, and I'm going to stay there throughout that tour. So, yeah, exactly. I'm going out and lobbying and I'm saying, hey, do you have any extra seats on the boat? Like, can I help at all, anywhere? And again, I end up meeting through a series of networking, meeting this guy who's like, hey, I can help you out. Let's link you up with Joint Special Operations Command. There's an augment that we can get you on. A few weeks later, I'm on a plane with no training. I knew the country I was going to, but ultimately, like, had no, absolutely zero idea what I was doing from a job standpoint. So imagine like, there's a black box and you're like, this sounds really cool. I want to do that job, but I have no idea what it entails.

But it seems like that's the point in your career that you were at where you're like, I want to be tested. I want to figure this out.

Yep. No, a hundred percent. And I'll tell you, I got there and, man, did that job test me mentally and physically and in all the different ways possible.

Can you say where you went?

I was in East Africa. I land and I get my job and my assignment, and next thing I know I'm leading a team and, man, you're going in. And I guess I could equate it now to being a new manager and not knowing anything about a company, not knowing anything about the processes. And here you are supposed to be responsible for leading a small team, and yet you don't even know anything about the sector you're in. So I'm learning all this while trying to do it and flying the plane and building it at the same time.

You get deployed to East Africa leading a small team doing what? As much as you can say again.

We'Re pulling together analysis to support national level missions. So like think tier tier one, pretty sophisticated missions. And bringing. We're responsible for bringing in all the intelligence for a specific sector of the national mission in, in East Africa.

The purpose of you going there, your team going there, was for intelligence.

Yep, exactly. To help drive operations, if you will. So we're getting the intel and then we're giving it to the SEALs to make decisions. Hey, here's kind of where the bad guy is. Recommend you do xyz and then they make their final plans for, hey, we're going to go do. Because the intel says whatever.

And is it always that you were going to support a SEAL team or that was specific to this mission or this deployment, you were there to support a SEAL team, or is that kind of how the setup of what you're doing works?

Yeah, that's kind of how the setup works. So we're like, you know, everybody's part of the same team and there's give and take and back and forth, if you will, if that kind of makes sense.

How do you get over the holy shit, this is real moment to, like, I'm here. I have no resume in this. Like, are these people gonna believe what I say? Like, are they gonna listen to me? You know, I think whether we're talking about the Navy or marketing or entrepreneur, I think almost everybody I talk to in my life talks about imposter syndrome at some point.

Yeah, I felt the imposter syndrome, but I tried not to dive myself too much into it. Instead, I tried to think of, you know, if you've ever read, like, the Speed of Trust by Stephen Kobe talks about, like, so what? You know, and I would even ask you, you know, like, what's the quickest way to build trust?

I would say, like, results.

Exactly. Like, you just got to get in there and do. And I think part of that even being right or wrong, you just have to produce. You just have to get out there. And it's okay to make mistakes. They know you're new. And that was something that was difficult. And I definitely made mistakes. But I got in there and I was working 18, 20 hour days. Those are just deployment hours, seven days a week. And you just go, go, go, learning as much as you can. And when you mess up, you change how you do things and you just keep going, you know, fail, quit and move on.

I love that.

And I just to like, tell a side story related to that. Like, I think one of the ways that I started to grow in my career was I joined this company called Drift early on and they hired me as just like a junior ish marketing person. And there was no other marketing structure. It was like, hey, you're here to do, I don't know, start our blog, buddy. And similar to that framework that you kind of laid out, it's like, well, all of a sudden you do that and you put some points on the board and they're like, huh, I didn't really expect that out of him. Okay, here's some more stuff to do. And you keep building and you keep building. And then all of a sudden, six, eight months into that role, like now I had done four or five different things and they're like, maybe you're the one that could do more of this stuff. And you build credibility by like now you're presenting on the things that you've done and you become seen as an expert and a resource on that thing. And so I think, like, it's just such a good lesson where one of the things that drives me nuts both personally and professionally is just like when people just sit around and nobody's taking action. Like, one of my biggest, my wife will listen to this and she will laugh later. Because one of my biggest strengths and one of my biggest weaknesses is that I move fast and I'm very impulsive. And so in scenarios like work, for example, I make really fast decisions. Literally over the weekend I was like, I'm starting this podcast and I'm doing it right and there's trade offs to that. But I think that it is a certain mentality that like, the way to get credibility is to put some points on the board. And so I've always had a bias for like, in a new job, a lot of people, you're in marketing, you're in the tech industry now. So much about, hey, what should I do in my first 90 days? And people are like, well, make sure you talk to customers and Talk to people around the company. And I'm not, not to diminish those things, but like, I view like I'm here week one, like, what's a small thing that I can put on the board right now so I can start to build some momentum? I learned a great management lesson from a mentor of mine who was like, one time we got a feedback survey from all the employees and they said that they wanted more snacks among, like, bigger issues in the company. The next morning we put new snacks out just to show that, like, we were listening and we put some points on the board. I think that's just such an important mentality to have.

No, I totally agree. And I think even beyond that, right? It's also the listening piece that you brought up, right? It's like, take action, get snacks. And you know what, when they like give you a hard time because you got Cheez itself instead of pretzels, and you're like, but here's the thing, like, people are going to complain no matter what. But you still took the initiative. Like, you still move the ball forward and that's the key. And guess what? You're going to take that feedback and you're going to get pretzels and they're still going to yell at you because you didn't get peanut butter filled pretzels. But it doesn't matter because you're getting closer to the solution that's wanted, even if they don't know that that's the solution that is warranted.

Were you ever intimidated by some of the people that you work with?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. But again, I think it's the intimidation factor is. Well, one, you just have to be confident in yourself. My job. And I think people get confused. You know, hey, there's all these special forces roles and there's seals and Green Berets and then there's the support and the techs. That's kind of. We're called. But like, you are the only person that can do your job. And I think this applies to the civilian sector too. Like, now I'm product marketer. Like, I'm the only person that's doing product marketing for my specific thing. I need to know that it doesn't matter that, like, maybe you know, Dave, you're like the big head honcho or, you know, I work for Tom now. He's a cmo. Like, I'm the subject matter expert. So if he can't rely and back to that trust thing, rely on me to do my job. You know, even you're though, you're a big bad SEAL or a Green Beret or whatever you may be. You have to have confidence in me, and it's my job to portray confidence in you that, hey, this guy that you're going to go get or this mission that you're going to go on is a good mission to go on because here's the data analysis to support why.

So your full time in the Navy was like seven, eight years?

Eight years, Yep.

Give me the quick timeline of how long are you in. Are you in East Africa for like two weeks. And you come home?

Yeah. So I'm there for a few months. I go back, I finish up my cyber gig.

How's the food there, by the way?

Mixed. I'll say. Military food is never, never great. But I would also say that, like, I was never on a ship for long periods of time either. So, like, shout out to the my brothers and sisters who have been eating ship food for years on end.

Why is ship food, like, the worst?

It's notorious for being terrible. Like the powdered eggs. And I don't really know how I.

Stumbled upon this, but I will sometimes find my way into, like, the weirdest things on YouTube. All of a sudden I'll be watching like, the LAX, like, Runway for 30 minutes. I don't know why. One time I'm sitting there on the couch and I'm watching a guy, a chef on a. I don't know if it's. I don't know if chef is the right term, but he's making like, pizzas in a microwave on a Navy ship. And I, I watched that for 30 minutes. My wife came in, she's like, what the hell are you watching, man?

I remember we didn't always get a ton of vegetables, so we actually got shipped some gladware. And when they would have cucumbers, we'd like take a ton of cucumbers and like, put them in the gladware. So that way we'd have vegetables for a few extra days. It was hilarious.

In all seriousness, did that change your. And I don't know how you were before, but, like, I know a lot of people in my life who have it very easy, myself included. And they're like, I gotta have eight hours of sleep, I gotta have these vegetables, I gotta have these vitamins. I gotta have this in my diet. And I always wonder, like, do I really need all those things? And obviously, I think overall probably, yes, you will take some of that in and perform better. But, like, I hear you say, like, oh, standard for to go work 18 to 20 hours a day. So you're working 20 hours, you know, you're getting four hours of sleep a night, you're not eating the greatest food in the world and you're still performing at the highest level. Like, has that shaped your opinion on just like kind of nutrition in general?

I think it really just shows that you can do anything that you put your mind to. Like, it's that simple. Like, and if your mind is in doing the work and taking action, like that's where your mind's at. If you get caught up in like the loop of, oh my gosh, I haven't had my vitamins in two days, like, yeah, you're going to get stuck there and then it's just going to be on repeat, you know what I mean? But also I would, I would argue like, and I don't know, like I'm a big surfer. So like you just go out in the waves and even if the waves are terrible, like it's all about being outside, like in the water and like staying stoked and like feeling those good vibes, you know what I mean? And like it just, nothing else really matters. And I think in that same sense you're so mission focused, like if you actually feel that purpose in your life, you will just go and like nothing else really matters. Like if you're building a startup in your garage, that's great. I think having the discipline to do all that stuff helps. But at the end of the day, if you skip a meal, your body is incredibly, not only resilient, but I would even argue anti fragile. It actually gets better from stress sometimes and it can make you a better person in the long run.

Can you think of a time in your career where you really had to push your body to a limit that you were thinking about that like, wow, this is uncomfortable. I've never been here and I made it.

Yeah, I think there's, there were a few times and really there's times where things weren't going super well on like an operation and we're monitoring everything from the back end and you know, you're up for 48 hours or you go to sleep only and we had like, I don't know if you ever had a pager back in the day. Yeah, they're like a little pager and you get here the beep beep and you're like, you're gone. You're like, man, I thought I was going to fall asleep. I gotta go back. Being mentally dead, but knowing you have to be there and knowing and Then at the end of the day, like, you are there, right? Like, you're actually in there doing that. And at the time, I think it's easy to complain, and you're like, dude, it was so terrible, and I was exhausted, but now I look back and like, holy cow. Like, that was pretty incredible. And we made the decisions that we made, and we were able to make decisions, right? Like, staying awake and being there.

How did you keep. You seem to be like, a very active type of person. Like, how do you keep your sanity when my guess is that a lot of what you're doing over there is you're sitting in a room somewhere for long periods of time. I do a podcast for an hour and I'm like, I gotta get outside. Like, I gotta go for a walk, you know? Like, how did you keep your sanity doing that one?

Kind of jokingly, right off the bat, you have to sit on a yoga ball. Like, I'm doing it now. Like, you gotta take the bounce and, like, get a little groove on. But in all seriousness, it is staying disciplined to, like, having some sort of release. And if that means getting a run in and it takes 10, like, you only have 10 minutes to run, like, dude, I'm going to run my heart out. And there are a few times where I, like, you know, I've run a mile and a half, almost two miles, and like, yeah, I only had barely 15 minutes, but you just go and you get it done. You find kind of your happy place. And sometimes that is better than sleeping, quite frankly. Like, hey, we're going to be up for the next 36 hours. Go grab a workout, come back with a coffee. And, like, you do feel refreshed. And I think it goes to show there's different ways to, like, refresh your body, and those are both mentally and physically. And you have to have to be able to push yourself that way.

There's obviously, like, 40 different things I could talk to you about for forever, but, like, what should I be asking you right now that I'm not?

Something that I would love to get into as well is, like, the transition out. We could talk about, like, how some of the cool stuff. Yeah, I went afterwards. I went just to kind of follow up. I. I went to a SEAL team afterwards and, like, did the intel director thing and actually got to lead a ton of people and manage. That was cool. But I think. And something I'm still working through right now and with a ton of different friends is. And community support, is the transition out. Because it is so different. You Know, you talk about like, hey, cool, we can get our eight hours and then it is important. And I try really hard to do all that stuff now. In fact, I think my wife would give me a hard time for sleeping too much sometimes. But the transition becomes hard here. Kind of what we're talking about. You get ingrained in. Go, go, go. And how do you assimilate all those skills and what you do and take the cool factor and actually translate them to real skills?

Yeah. We live in an area where there's a Air force base up here and a couple of our neighbors are in that community. And one time a neighbor of mine invited me over to watch a football game and he was like, hey, not to be weird, but like, I'm kind of socially awkward because, like, I've kind of spent like 20 years. Like us military guys are like kind of only used to talking to other military guys. And so I was like, if you think I'm being weird, it's like, it's not me. This is just like how I am. And I was like, damn, I've never thought of it like that. And like, here I am, like, I literally, like, my life is like emails and emails and zoom calls. And so I can totally like empathize with how different your previous life was to this life today. So like, how are you doing that? Especially because you went into a field that maybe it's more common now, but like you go into the tech world, which is like so cushy and soft compared to, compared to what you were doing before. So. Yeah. What are you doing to work through that?

Yeah, I think a few things, and one is trying to stay part or trying to keep a close knit community because there's a lot of veterans that are moving forward and are transitioning out. And I think you've basically been on an athletic team for the last 10, what, for me, you know, like eight years, but for some folks, 20, 30 years and you only know how to operate in that team. So how do you. The only way to like kind of spread your wings is again, one, take action and start doing stuff, start networking, start figuring things out, but also like holding on and asking others questions that are doing it the same way, you know, and kind of having that active listening and saying, hey, how did you do this? What's going on? How did you figure this out? But ultimately, how do you actually pivot? And I think all the this advice is out there in the real world is like, tailor yourself. How do I actually translate my skills? And I kind of mentioned before, but like intel, like process development, process creation, like systems, we're just doing data analysis. And then how do I approach, you know, take that and transform it into marketing or those sorts of things? And then the other thing I would add, too, is, again, like, keeping. Staying stoked and keeping the vibes high. Like, how do you translate your personality in such a way that's not military speak? Right? Because I even made the mistake in the beginning, right? Like, start talking all these acronyms, jargon, and you get so lost in it, and people then just, like, glaze over and have no idea that you even made a joke because they can't keep up.

But I bet you can apply some of the things that make you talented and that have been a staple of your career. You can almost apply it to. It's like you have a new puzzle to try to figure out, and you're like, oh, this is how these people talk and this is how they work. It is kind of what your background is, figuring that out and figuring how to, like, rally people and move people in the same direction.

No, that's a great point, actually. And I kind of thought about it that way. But I think taking the approach of where do I fit in? And I don't know that product marketing is perfect for me for the next 10 years, but I'm loving, like, taking it all in and learning about all the different sectors now and building out that puzzle.

Especially if this is your first job as a civilian, right? You can kind of treat it mentally as, like, this is a mission. Like, you don't know if this is a year, two years, three years, but, like, it's a new way of gathering skills. And like, this thing now, you're, like, adding that to your time in the Navy. And then, like, three years from now, you're going to add a new thing to that. So I wonder if there's a way that you're looking at it that it's like this is almost like a different type of deployment that you're on, except you're sitting on a yoga ball on zoom calls all day.

Yeah, you know, I do get made fun of for my yoga ball bounces, but, you know, we gotta do what we gotta do, right? Stay focused. But okay.

I have a former Marine friend of mine who likes to think that my job is just to sit in a beanbag chair on my laptop all day, so.

Well, are you in a beanbag chair now?

No, I'm not. I'm in, like, a $300, like, ergonomic proper chair. Chad, there's no jacks here.

Yeah, I'm gonna get you a beanbag and send you one because I'm. I'm all in for this Marine guy. I'm liking where his head's at.

Yeah, they couldn't understand what the big deal was around Covid because they're like, I don't understand. Don't you all just work on the Internet anyway? Why do you have to go to an office? I don't understand? And I was like, that actually makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of rent out there that has been wasted. Have you had much time with the team in person?

Yeah. I'll say one great thing about the team I'm at now, and really, again, about the culture is like, they do want us to travel and get up to the space. So I'm still in Virginia now. I do technically work remote, but, like, I try to get up to Boston or, like, our D.C. office every so often. And that's really, really helpful. But I do think that as the world moves forward, just an interesting thing that I've noticed is, like, how managers kind of have to set the tone for that virtual environment. And how do. Maybe there's a question for you. Like, how do managers pick the people out that are doing super well and, like, actually have that drive out of the virtual environment?

For many reasons, I'm thankful that I'm not in a company right now. And look, this is all by choice. Like, I'm fortunate to have had a couple of successes, like exits, and I've built a successful enough business on my own that, like, I don't have to go work at a company. And I. I think there are plenty of people who. That is what they need. I'm. I'm like, we're all. We're all weird and unique in our own ways. I did the job for a while, but like, some people, what gets them fired up is leading people and leading teams. And I like to lead people through other ways. My way is not like managing a team of ex people. And I would be a terrible boss or manager right now because, like, I just have no patience for, like, small talk. And I don't like the team bonding, you know, like, wine tasting over zoom. That's just not me. And so. So I don't. I'm the wrong person to ask about rallying. And also for me, one of the things that I hated about working at a company, and this is not even just me as a manager, but I always have been about results. Let the results do the like, and I'm, I'm a competitive person. I'm a very goal oriented person. Like, I need the next thing to be striving towards. And I always hated that. In an in person office environment, you did see some people rise through the ranks because they were the ones who got drinks with so and so after work or like we're schmoozing around the water cooler and like I've always been like a very family, like my own time. Either, either I'm leaving work at the end of the day to like go work out and do my thing or go or once I had kids, go home and have my family, like, I was never the one to be like, oh man, I got to go to this. So I do think that one positive thing, at least in my light is some of that has been removed. Where like, if we're all on this level playing field, it's not the person who's in the office making all the jokes and getting all the attention is going to be the one who rises up. And I think unfortunately some of that was true in an office. And so I do think that as a manager now, now I would want to just like, how are we measuring the team? What really get tight on like goals and individual performance and like what is Chad here to do and how are we measuring that performance? Whether is it important that people on the team like you? Yes, obviously in your career, like if nobody liked you or wanted to talk to you and you know you're never going to have seals that are going to give you the time of day. But in this world, like I do think some of that is positive, that some of that is removed. You know what I'm saying?

Absolutely. And from being a manager formally, I think it just, it almost challenges us to get more creative in how we think and further be disciplined in that approach. You know, we can talk about being disciplined with your eight hours of sleep or your workouts all like important to like making good decisions later on. But I think it's also important to be disciplined in your approach of how you think about feedback. And you know, I know for my team previously, like having consistent feedback opportunities and, and kind of giving everybody feedback in the same sort of structure is like critical for identifying who's actually strong and who's weak and who's got a great personality and like will talk to me and make me laugh, but maybe isn't nearly as good as building that analytical process.

I've made this mistake. Looking back, I can kind of talk publicly about like mistakes that I made now because I'm not in that position. But, like, I've made the mistakes with getting too close and personal and friendly with somebody on the team who might not be performing at the level that you need. And then, and then I'm like, shoot, I haven't been managing this person, like, hard enough and now they're falling behind. But, like, it looks like we're buddy buddy, and I've only had this buddy buddy relationship, and now all of a sudden I got to have the hard conversation. It's like, wait, we've only kind of been buddy buddy for eight months now I got to have the conversation, Chad, that, like, you're on a performance plan.

Yeah.

This is the part of management that I think a lot of people don't realize until you've done it. It's like, are you sure? You know, in your world, like, you kind of ha. You. You have to become a manager. But like, I think in tech or in other people listening to this, like, if you want to be a manager, you got to know what that entails. And that means you're going to have to have hard conversations with people, and it means that people are not always going to like what you're doing. I think that that part is something that I struggled with and I'm glad to not have to do it all the time now.

And I would even argue, you know, it goes the other way too, like, being able to have those hard conversations and realize, like, yeah, if you're in a subordinate situation. Right. Very clearly and concisely bring up those points. I can't tell you how many times I've did this, like, in the military, especially, you know, with special operators, where you have to be like, hey, sir, we should not do that. And here are the facts. Right. In the same sense, you have to say, like, like, here's where I think I should be. Why am I not there? And having, you know, being very blunt.

About that, I do think some of that is, like, I wish there was more of that. And I think this is why, like, one of the things that I didn't do for the longest time was, like, have very clearly mapped out, like, roles and career progressions. And I'm sure this is something that you had in the military where, like, if this is your rank, this is the things that you're supposed to do. And if you let that go for too long, you don't have the right. You have to have the right tools to be able to properly manage someone. And it's like, you and I are not on the same page with the five things that you need to be able to do and the scorecard for your job. It's going to be really hard for me to manage you because everything's going to feel like a personal attack. Everything's going to feel like it's coming out of nowhere with no context. But it's almost like if we had this clear scorecard that we were always, like, working against, it does make it a little bit easier to have harder conversations.

I totally agree. And I certainly made that mistake plenty of times early in my career, especially like at that cyber command initially where I'm just like, you know, have a. Have a few guys working for me. And I'm like, yeah, so this is what I need. But again, not having those solidified roles, it's so critical. And actually one of them brought that to my attention. Like, hey, what are your specific expectations of me and my role? And, like, what do I need to do to be performing at Standard Vice above or below? And I was like, holy cow, thank you. You know, but also being, I would say, humble enough to realize that, yeah, that's a great idea. Like, let's implement that. And I can't tell you, learning that early in my career, like, really helped me understand and be able to assimilate into special forces and some of those other other roles.

Let's talk about fitness for a little bit. Where does fitness fit in your life now and what do you do?

If you haven't realized already, I'm disciplined. But I would argue that I'm not consistent in the sense that I do the same thing every day. I love mixing it up. I love kind of getting into those flow states and feeling like. Like feeling the rhythm, feeling the rhyme. Like, you know, I don't bobsled all the time, but. Yeah, but I mixed it up. So I formally swam. I can't swim every day anymore because I have some shoulder issues. I did CrossFit in the past. Like, kind of didn't super love it. Now I love doing body weight stuff and kind of just getting moving and those sorts of things. And then extreme sports, like, I'll go out and surf for three, four hours. Like, man, if that's not a great workout, like, I'm zonked at the end.

So you have discipline meaning, like, you gotta do something every day.

Yeah, exactly. And.

But consistency meaning, like, it doesn't matter so much what that is.

Yep, exactly.

But do you know what workout you're gonna do tomorrow? Or you just kind of wake up and you see? Or is it at a certain time? Because, like, I know for me, when I don't get it in like, or get it done, I think about it all day and I honestly. Because I feel like you, you get a physical. Like, you talked about going for a 10 minute run or whatever. I have to do that first thing now because if I don't, like, I need that burst right away. So, like, do you have it planned or like, what do you. That feels a little bit too out of my comfort zone to be like, I don't know what I'm gonna do tomorrow.

So I do work out with a, like, community crew here and that we, like, honestly, it's a blast. So it's like a community, a gym. And they, we do everything from like, hey, we're gonna meet in the woods and do some like hill sprints or something to hey, we're gonna like go ahead and do heavy deadlifts.

What do you mean, like a community cruise? Like, is it all like military people or like.

No, it's just a. Well, it's a g. I like to consider it more of a community. Like they have community workouts where just anybody can show up, like on some weekends and things like that. Just really cool and great opportunity to meet new people and stuff.

Is there like a text thread going or like an email chain? Like, tomorrow, we're deadlifting at this time. Be there. Like, how does it work?

So there is a coach and she actually writes the workouts. Okay. So it is a little bit more structured, but outside of that, you know, a few buddies will like, kind of give each other a hard time. Be like, hey, dude, you should do work on your sandbag today and be like, cool, I'm gonna go do a hundred sandbag tossovers or things like that. So really mixing it up, I would say I don't plan my workouts, but again, to the discipline point. Like, I enjoy having randomness and states of flow in my life and that's just what works for me. My wife, she like gets up, has a workout. Like, you know, it's like, it's regimented. But I like living my life one wave at a time, baby. We're just waiting for the next swell.

True surfer in you. So like, you might like hang up this call and like go for a run just because that's what you felt like.

Yeah, yeah. And I, I love that. It, honestly, it makes me happy. I can wake up, check the waves. Hey, all workouts canceled. Waves are firing or hey, the wind's good. I'm gonna go kiteboard or go sailing or something. Something recent, though, I added to my regimen is the cold dip. I popped on the. The cold dip.

Oh, my God, get out of here. I'm gonna hang up. Look, I believe in it. My wife actually was like, let's get. Why don't we get you a cold tub? It's just so funny because I'm not even giving you shit for it. I'm into this, too. Something has happened within, like, the last two months where, like, every influencer from Joe Rogan to Jesse Itzler to whoever, it's like, you. I can't go on Instagram without seeing somebody praising the benefits of cold tub. Like, cold tub is like, that is the thing right now, Huberman. I mean, granted, there's. There's science to this, but that is the thing right now. But those. You get the cold tub from the. You have nature's cold tub, but don't you?

Exactly. No. And. And that's all. Honestly, I don't even have a tub. Again, another, like, a cool thing to build within a community. And I can't harp on this enough. Like, the community, to me is just everything, right? Like, that gives me purpose. Is like going out and like, seeing other folks do it. And, yeah, we'll meet up and we all just, like, dip together in one of the back lakes or go out out front to the ocean. Right now, I think, well, yesterday the water was pretty cold. It's like 45. The ocean was 46, so a little chilly. But, you know, spend a good five minutes in there bobbing the waves and have a time.

I have no experience with surfing. When you're surfing, you have a wetsuit on. The water's 45. Like, are you still cold or you're good?

Depends on the wetsuit, man. You got holes in that wetsuit. Like, no chance. Booties, gloves, you know, you got the hood on. It's a good time. You know, even just like, the cold dip thing, a lot of it's just mental. You know, if you're feeling that sun on your face and you're cold, your body's like, what's going on? But you're feeling. You're having a great time. That's what it's all about. And I think that overcomes some of the cold sometimes. But I would add, you do got to be careful. Throw some Vaseline on your eyebrows, eyelashes, so they don't get icicles.

Freeze.

Yeah. If you're. If you're out and it's like, under 32 you don't put a little Vaseline on your eyelashes to freeze together a little bit.

Yeah. Well, you have beautiful hair too. I don't have that. I don't have that issue. You got the surfer hair.

Yeah, I had to shave off the lettuce. You know, they what just wasn't there. I'll send you some.

All right. Well is that, was that a military approved look? Can you have lettuce if you're like, if you're in the Navy?

Hard no on the lettuce. So you gotta do what you can sometimes, you know, you tuck it up under the hat a little bit, but yeah, hard pass in the lettuce.

Are you mentioned body weight stuff like, like what are you doing?

Yeah. So I think we should tell, tell the folks listening to this, you know how we really met and it was actually my boss Tommy mentioned tag me in a video of you doing pull ups. And then I had to comment that the form is pretty decent. But I think if I recall correctly, I said it's not about how many you do, it's about how much fun you're having.

Okay, I'm into that. Yeah. That's great advice for the people who can't do any pull ups. They're like, I have so much fun. Did one pull up. But then I asked you what your. I think my max unbroken pull ups is like 20. And then I think you had some ridiculous number that you said either I don't know if it was unbroken or you did them in some period of time.

Yeah. So my unbroken is up over 30. But then I, being the knucklehead that I was, challenged the team. If they got so many subscribers or people coming to an event, I would do a pull up for every one that we went over the goal. Somehow they managed to get their stuff together and that resulted in 180 pull ups. Not straight though. Not straight?

No, not straight. But that, I mean that'll keep you sore for a couple days depending on how.

Yeah, it'll get you going.

Do you do any weightlifting?

A little bit. I mentioned I like, I have some shoulder issues just from, from swimming and stuff. So. Yeah.

Did you used to do more?

A little bit, yeah. But I, I tend to enjoy reps over going very heavy, especially as I've gotten older. My, I just don't enjoy, nor does my body enjoy. Super heavy. And if you can't tell. Right. Like I'm all about just listening to my body, like what does it want, what does it need? And I think that's been super fun, too.

Well, that's why I asked, actually, because I think, like, one thing that I've found in myself as I'm getting older, I'm 35. I think it's important to continue to lift just from a strength training standpoint. Like, I don't. I want to have a baseline of strength. But, like, one of the reasons why I don't do CrossFit anymore was just, like, I just felt like I was hurting. I. I wasn't even getting injured all the time, but just felt it was like, like not what my body was craving. And, like, recently I've gotten into running. I do a lot more yoga now. I do a lot more just body weight. You know, push up, pull up, squat type stuff. And I'm. I'm trying to listen more to my body for, like, what do I feel like I want as opposed to, like, oh, today is leg day, and I got to do heavy squats because then that, like, I don't. I don't get the same enjoyment out of that. And so, like, what's cool that I'm hearing through your fitness routine is it is. It's a little bit more intuitive. It's being out there outside, it's being on the beach, it's going in the lake, it's surfing. Like, a workout doesn't necessarily have to mean I'm. I'm in the gym, you know, doing strict press and cleans and all that stuff, right?

No, 100%. And, you know, I think everybody's on their own journey, whether that's professionally or from an athletic standpoint. And, like, hey, if getting outside, getting sun and going for a walk in the morning and afternoon is where you're at, that's awesome. But again, it goes back to, like, like, just taking action and just doing it right. And to your point, like, I just love, you know, if I have a great leg workout or one of my buddies challenges me to, like, something nuts, I'm gonna do something else the next day, or if I'm, like, my body's absolutely crushed, like, I'm probably gonna stretch, and it's gonna feel great, and I'm gonna stretch for a full hour again back to that discipline piece and do what? Like, what makes me feel good afterwards.

My producers have asked me to ask you in my ear about what is your opinion of celebrity seals?

I think that's a tough one. I mean, like, I'm here as an intel guy on this podcast.

I guess you're a celebrity, you're gonna.

Be a celebrity, and I'm not. I'm far. I'm far from a celebrity. Like, people are gonna be like, man, this guy Cheese Nips something. I don't know. I think, like anything else, man, it's marketing. Let's put it this way. My opinion of my own self is like, I wanted to volunteer. I wanted to do the job that I wanted to do, and I did it, and I had a great time doing it, and I'm happy to tell the story. I think there is, like, anything else, a balance in life of, like, going too far. But that's not for me to judge because I'm also in that, not in their shoes. And I don't know what's going on in their personal life or things that they may need to do that or even, you know, from a psyche perspective, like. But for me, it's just not me. And like I said, I'm happy to be here and truly honored to tell my story and. And you crushed me with questions.

Well, I'm glad you did it. This was fun. Mr. Cheese Nips, thank you for doing this. Chad, I'm going to hit you up later. I'm going to hit you up offline because one of the things that I want to do through this show is as I have interesting people on, I want to meet new people that I haven't met. And so I'm going to ask you to think about, now that you've done this, maybe one person in your life or network who you would be willing to let me interview you for an hour or so. So that's what I'm going to plant you with as our parting thought. Maybe it'll hit you tomorrow as you're surfing, or maybe it'll come later while you're just bouncing on your yoga ball, catching up on emails. Right. But that's going to be my ask from you for later. So just put that thought away.

Absolutely. I love that. And then if I could ask you of one thing as well, is just give vets a chance and let them tell you that, you know, they're going to be a little awkward in the interview. But do try and help listen to what they have to bring, because I think there's a lot that. That we bring and sometimes we don't always know what those translatable skills are.

Well, let's not just end on that. No, let's talk about that for a minute. Where does you saying that come from? Like, do you feel like veterans are not given a fair chance, or are you saying, like, I think they don't.

Always know what's out there in the civilian world. And it can be difficult for people to. You know, I had no idea that product marketing was a thing. Sure. And it took a veteran who is in the job to help me understand that. So what I challenge people to say is, like, you know, I think veterans have a. There's plenty of opportunities out there, but help them understand what they're getting into, because quite frankly, like, we have no idea what's in the real world. Yeah.

And I mean, especially, like, if you look at somebody like you, you put in eight years, and then you're, like, trying to find a new career. And it's like, always kind of this catch 22 type thing where it's like, then how do you enter? It's almost like back to. I remember me being like a. An intern. And you're, like, trying to get a job with no experience. How are you going to get somebody to. To take the chance? And so what you're saying is, think about the background of a veteran and the skills that they might be able to bring to your organization or team in lots of different ways. I mean, look at your background in intelligence and process and analysis. That can totally be applied to this industry. I think you're a perfect example of that. So I love that call out. Are there any organizations that you support or look up to that do something like this?

Yeah, absolutely. So I actually went through the program, but it's called the Honor Foundation. They were absolutely phenomenal. So it's for transitioning special operations veterans and helps them basically find our why and translate some of those skills. Still support them and help volunteer with them when I can.

Nice. Yeah, that's great. I'm glad you called that out, because I think it's. I mean, if I look at your background, I'm like, shoot, I got to find a way to get this dude on my team. Like, I don't even have a team. Right.

Great. No, much appreciated.

Cool. All right, Chad, thank you for doing this. You and I will be in touch. And if you're listening out there, thank you for listening to this episode. This is my podcast. I'm Dave Gerhart. This is my new friend, Chad. And I'm glad you listened. And send us some messages on LinkedIn or Twitter, send me an email, dgavegeart.com I'd love to get your comments and feedback. And I'm also, if you're listening to this and you're impressed or want to just talk more to Chad, I'll be his bodyguard. And I'll make some intros to you as they come in. Okay. And just shout out to tomorrow, Wentworth, my friend, for connecting us and I'm glad to have met you and we'll stay connected. All right, Chad.

Hey, thanks so much. All right. Thanks for having me, dude.

Hey, thanks for listening to this episode.

Of the Exit 5 podcast.

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