#66: Managing Burnout & How To Get Unstuck in Your Career (with Hana Jacover)

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Okay, so Hana's here. Thanks for doing this, Hana. Why don't you give people some background on who you are, how we got here, what your career story has been, in short, in the B2B marketing space. And then we're going to talk a little bit about something outside of tactics and channels and demand gen that we usually talk about here today. So I'm excited to have you, but give us some backstory. Who are you?

Yes, I love that question. Who are you? Most people don't know the answer to that.

Yeah, that's true. That is too deep to ask you in the first minute of this, but.

Yes, no, I like it. And I always like to start with just like a very simple layer of foundations around who I am that are very related to my career but really related to the core of me, and that is that. And I'll just say like five things. I am adopted. I live in a very neurodivergent family, myself included in that. I have navigated the environments around me through the lens of being black, being biracial. And I also have parents that were and still are executive coaches and experts in organizational development. So that's really like what has laid the groundwork for me in my journey. And when I first got into tech, I met a woman who owned an Agency, a B2B marketing agency. And she was like, hey, I really want you to join the team and just start learning, start helping. And she also had these so super smart, badass women. Like, it was all women. It was so cool. And I really stuck with them for a long time and just absorbed, learned as much as I could. I always tell people, go work at an agency if you want to grow your career. And we were doing things like we were really early, like we were talking about abm, we were talking about reverse waterfall planning, lead scoring, like all of these things that were still sort of on the edges for a lot of organizations. And we were helping bring those things to market for those companies, which was really amazing and blending a lot of the tactical, strategic, creative work. So that's where I spent a bulk of my career and really just kind of elevated pretty quickly on this side and so started managing People pretty early, managing accounts, managing departments. And then the little voice in my head was like, hey, Hannah, is this really what you want to be doing? And I was going through kind of like an identity search at the time too. And like, I had literally just found some of my birth sisters that I didn't know existed. I was connecting with like my birth father for the first time. So I had a lot going on and I think it sparked a lot inside of me and like, really wanted, I wanted to reclaim a lot of things in my life, both personally and professionally. And I think I just totally, like, shed a layer of who I was and kind of moved into a different, I think, different stage of adult development, honestly, if I'm thinking about it in that way.

When was that? Just like from a year context in your career?

Oh, that was. I mean, I was like 10 years into my career, so it was pretty.

Late compared to now. Like, compared to today. Was it a year ago, two years ago, five years ago?

That would have been like six years ago. And then what that translated to was, and I bounced around a little bit. I went to, like, I tried different things. I went to a different agency, like, oh, is this it? Is this the answer? And then eventually I decided to go in house because I was on this track of like, okay, agency side. And I could either continue on that, you know, start running portions, portions of an agency, or I could take the in house track and start moving towards that cmo, you know, route. And everyone around me was like, you're so well slated. You're so well slated for that. Like, go for it, go for it. And so that's what I chose to do. So I took everything, I went in house and I started working at madcudu startup and running Demand Gen there. Fantastic experience. I would still say, like, that was my dream job. I love that company. The founders have like mad respect for them. It was great, but it just like didn't satisfy that little voice inside of my head. And there was just so much more for me to discover. I think about myself and what I was supposed to be doing. I didn't listen to it for a long time. And because of that, like, I totally burned myself out. I like ran past all my red flags. Totally burned out. And I did some really great things. I was contributing, impacting a lot. Like we started, we were trying to get into a new audience and successfully did so with the podcast. We created Marking Ops Confessions, but I wasn't taking care of myself and I didn't listen. And then like the universe decided to intervene and my mother in law had a stroke who lived with us. And I think that was really like the trigger where it was like, lift your head up and actually listen. And I had to do something then. So I really kind of tapped into like, oh my God, like this is real. Like you have to get back to your core and figure out what you're doing here. And I did and I took the time to do that. And I think it came to like a part of me. It was really around my why, like, why am I here? And I was like, wow, when I die, do I really just want to be known as a great demand gen marketer, like helping people buy other people's products? No. And I want to be known for helping people win and helping people succeed like humans succeed. And I think underneath of it all, like, that's really what I always cared about. Like it was never really the marketing. Like we're in the business of people, not marketing.

I have a bunch of things that you mentioned that I want to get back into. But just since you mentioned it right now, you mentioned about finding your why. And this is a thing that comes up in almost every single marketer that I know and I talk to. We have this, I guess, existential crisis of like, oh my gosh, is this who I, you know, am I going to go to my grave and people are going to be like, you know, that guy Dave was a great B2B marketer. Like, is that who I'm going to be? But at the same time, you know, you can also take this other view that like you're being successful in your career and in your job doesn't have to define you. It can be a means to an end. It can allow you to do other things. And then I look at your story and what's interesting is you're able to find your why. It's not actually that far off. Or maybe you're not, maybe you're not demand gen hana anymore, but you're still leveraging like you're an executive coach. It's still like if you drew a Venn diagram of like B2B SaaS and marketing, like there's still some overlap there where like you're able to tap into a network and tap into your expertise and, and, and tap into your skills. I would love to try to just unpack like, how did you get to that? Why? And I also think it's still important to find like most of the time you need to find a why where you can still, like, you still need to find a way to pay the bills. Right. And so, like, ultimately finding my why. Like, I would love to just, like, have no job and sit on the beach and meditate all day and find my why. And. But, like, have found your why and you're able to still build a business off of this. And so I wonder if we could just like, unpack. How did you do that? Was there like a. Did you find a template online? Was there a particular book or a framework and exercise you walk through? Like, let's talk about getting to your why and then building a business from there.

Yeah, for sure. And I don't think people will like this answer, Ben. That's okay, because there's lots of ways to do it. For me personally, I had to deal with my shit. I had a lot of shit. Like the things that I told you about my foundations, like, that's some trauma. And so it was really unpack, taking the time to unpack a lot of that so I could release it. Because when I can release that, when I can get it out of my body, like literally you store trauma in your body. And I don't care what anybody says, we all have trauma. But releasing that so you can expand. And so that was really my first step, was working through that for myself. And that's a never ending journey. Right. I'm still on that. And with that, also releasing attachments. Right. Like you said, we can be so attached, like our identity to what we do and our jobs and our productivity and what that means. So noting those things about myself, like, what are the attachments that were not serving me in all of those areas, whether it's relationships, jobs, concepts, beliefs, values, and breaking those down, just completely breaking those down to their core of what I actually care about. And also just remembering, I think that we are here to also remember who we are. You know, you start this podcast, who are you? Most people seriously don't know. Most people really don't know because we walk around dressed in, you know, the external clothing of society or what people think, what people want us to be, Even the stories we tell about ourselves based on, like a picture that you look at. So really removing all of that clothing.

You know, you might know, but you're not comfortable, or society hasn't allowed. Allowed you to, or you're in a situation where you. You actually don't feel comfortable being that person. And so you're not able to fully become that. And so you have to suppress a lot of those things.

Yes. Yeah. And that. Suppressing that. Right. Like, what would it look like to have the full expression of yourself, like every day. What would that look like? And like, I had a picture of myself when I was like, I don't know, six or seven. And I stared at that thing for a long time and just trying to be like, who are you? Like, who is this little girl that I'm looking at? Like, what. What is the essence there that is still inside of me that I can honor? And between those things, like, that's really how I started moving towards identifying my.

Why and what did you identify? You wanted to help people, but in what capacity? How did you turn that into a business?

Yeah, so for me, it was first of all, okay, here's who I am. I am not a lot of the things people said. I was, you know, I am super energetic. I'm really dramatic. I want to help people find flow and reclaim energy and show up as their most authentic self and just help people express themselves in a way where they can also still get shit done and earn for themselves, but not have to sacrifice the things that make them who they are. So it really did kind of become about, like, my journey in discovering that and then helping other people do that as well.

I want to read this off of this is how you describe what you do, and I think it's great. So I want to read it. I help leaders in tech align with their authentic selves, unlock their full potential, and drive their organizations to new levels of success. With my guidance, leaders and executives alike are empowered to think outside the box, overcome obstacles, and achieve their most ambitious goals. Through a personalized approach. I help others discover new perspectives and develop a strategic vision for their organization that aligns with their values and drives growth.

Yeah, I think Simon Snek talks about this all the time, where it's like he's thinking about it from an organizational standpoint. But what are you good at? One thing that you like, what do you do that nobody else can do? Like you can do, what are you passionate about? And what is something where it's a community that you can serve, that you can bring those things into where you can help them. And you can also. And I'm going to use the word profit, but there's many definitions of that. Right. Whatever that means to you. So it's kind of that, like, I think there's a great book like Passion, Purpose, Profit. So it's kind of that. Those Venn diagrams, really, and like finding the middle of that.

So now you do leadership coaching. Go back to a younger you managing people early at this agency. What are some of the common mistakes that you see that you made, situations that you got thrown into that, frankly, nobody has coaching for this. You're so often, so often. It happened to me. It happened. So many people that listen to this podcast. The reason that you get in, you know, you don't often go on a career journey because you want to be a manager. You often get thrust into a management role because you're good at your job in one particular area. And it's like, oh, hey, we. We trust you with this thing. You're a high achiever in this area. Why don't you manage this person and manage this person? It's like, great on paper. That sounds great. Everybody wants to have a team. Everybody wants to have direct reports. A lot of people measure their worth at work by like, hey, how. Oh, yeah. And how big is your team? How many people are on your team? But there's so much different. There's such a vast disparity between what it takes to be, in this case, a good marketer and a good manager. And I want to. I would love to try to unpack some of that, if you can.

I think a lot of it has to do with thinking for yourself and trusting your intuition. I don't think we do these things enough. And doing it with agency. Right. And understanding where to bring that in. Part of that is also knowing the players. Right. Relationship building, understanding who is around you. Where is this information coming from? Like, we're operating in systems. I do a lot of systems thinking because we tend to stay in this, like, individual mindset. And I think that as new managers kind of moving up, like, we're very stuck in the. Like, I have to perform. I have to, like, we're really in here when we need to be looking out here. You know, what does this field look like? So I don't think that that happens a lot. And I don't think we're trained. Like, there's enough training for us to think about systems in an organization. And, like, the networks of communications and where information is coming from. Right. Like, I see so often managers at startups that get information and they're like, my managers, like, switching directions and telling me one thing and doing another thing. And it's like, well, but is that information coming from them or is it coming from the CEO? Is it coming from the board? Is it coming from the investors? Like, learn how to, you know, really understand and differentiate between the players and the messaging there.

That's really hard to do. I feel like even in thinking back on My career as a manager. There were times earlier in my career where I just wanted to tell the team, like, I know I'm jerking you all around in different directions, but, like, I'm kind of just executing on these orders. I wish I was more direct. And I had said that in a way that doesn't, like, throw the CEO, whoever, under the bus. But I think it helps me bring some, like, you know, personal relationship into this. And it's like, look, I'm not. I'm not the one doing this, but, like, we're kind of all here to, like, follow this direction. And the. The direction is not really logical right now. And so, yeah, I'm kind of asking you to just, like, kind of do this thing. Like, how do you do that? How do you be a good. A manager and a leader in a way that, like, you. You don't want to be, like, gossiping about the company, but you're kind of like, look, I'm. We're all kind of here to carry out these. These plans. And I don't necessarily. I'm not always the one making the plans.

Yeah. And I think it comes down to, like, every behavior is based on a need, Right. Asking really powerful questions to understand those needs. So then you can do some storytelling around that. Right? Understand the needs and do some storytelling around that that aligns to the why of why we're all here. I mean, just like you said. But I think in order to do that, you really have to understand the needs of what's going on and be objective about that. Right? Like, remove the emotional attachment to that or acknowledge it and then, like, set it aside and then connect that to, okay, why are we here? Why is this need important? Why is this need important? And how does that kind of play into the bigger picture of things?

On your site, you have these kind of subcategories for reasons people basically, like, when somebody's reaching out to you, like, challenges that they want your help with overcoming. And I want to. I want to read you a couple of these, and maybe, like, obviously we don't have hours and hours, but. But if you could talk through some of the ways that you can diagnose this and help people overcome this or what you see among the people that you work with. So, number one, that stands out to me. One of the challenges that a lot of people want help overcoming are dealing with right now is burnout. How do you diagnose burnout and what do you do about it?

Yeah, burnout. And also having experienced it myself, burnout is a Big one for me because. And usually it's self diagnosed, people come and they say I'm burnt out. Like, you know, it's not my job to diagnose somebody, it's my job to guide them through. Okay, what do we do about that? You know, what's your goal? How do we align to that? So usually it's they self identify and I give them the opportunity to do that. But I look at burnout. Burnout's really interesting to me because we have this fascination with burnout in the business world and talking about, oh, you need to delegate, you need to manage up, you need to do all these things. Yes, you do need to do those things. However, those things usually prevent burnout. Those things don't fix burnout. So when we talk about burnout and when I am talking about burnout with my coaches, it really becomes a conversation about how are you regulating yourself? Because when you're burnt out it is. What's more important is for you to rest and for you to regulate your nervous system. We do not think about the neuroscience behind some of these things that are happening to us because we're so wrapped up in what people are telling us around the business world that would help achieve business objectives. But if you don't fix what's going on with your body, it's only going to get worse. So I don't tell people or, you know, guide them towards. And in some cases, yeah, you have to manage the communication, you have to manage the relationships and like working through that is important. But first and foremost, what are you doing for yourself? How are you regulating your nervous system so you can get out of burnout and you can actually, you know, prevent that from happening again and how do you do that? So talking about, like I said, just letting them understand like what is going on in your body right now, connecting them to their body where they're like, oh my gosh, like I am disconnected from my body and I cannot, I cannot even name the emotions that are happening within me. I cannot even understand that there is a neurological component to this. And so just bringing awareness to that, right? Like it's all about the awareness of that and then helping them, them come up with their own strategies. Right. I'm not going to tell anybody what to do there. We're just exploring and they're going to come with their own strategies of, okay, if you're not getting enough sleep, if you're feeling really shitty at this time of the day, if you know that you need to exercise and you're not Exercising, like, what do you want to do about that? What are we going to do about that? So then it kind of goes into that action planning stage.

How do you separate that from. You mentioned this a little bit earlier, but like that to me is like those things are so important to be able to regulate yourself, right? Neurologically, mental health. But there are some things that are like, if you dig in there, the cause of the burnout could actually be shitty team members, shitty company, something that's happening inside of the company. Like, how do you separate those things?

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Go check them out now. Because I, I'm not a coach at all. But like, in the small conversations I've had, it is so much of the burnout, at least that I see, it comes back to like, man, this person is at the wrong company at the wrong point and they're being asked to do too much. And you know, I struggle to help them find an answer sometimes other than like, you should probably quit this job and go find a different company and now take all the things that you know to help do this. I'm trying to figure out how to say this, but like, there's like the spectrum of like, quit or like, re. You know, change your relationship with work to improve your mental health, right?

Totally. And they're interconnected. Like, you have to talk about those things. But first and foremost, like, help yourself, right? Because you can't make change unless you operate from a place of changing what you need to inside. But then, yeah, like, okay, what is it? And again, like going back to systems thinking, like, what hard systems are you navigating right now and why? And so getting them to just sort of name those things of, okay, like at the organizational level, like the culture isn't a fit or at the, in my role level, I'm having trouble communicating. And then really breaking that down to going back to the needs. Like, what are you not getting? What is the need that is not being satisfied for you? And where I find we get most traction or where most people are like, oh yeah, that's it is around the inability to communicate properly. So then bringing to the table, okay, and just working on little things at a time, right? Like, what's one thing that you need to communicate and who is that that you need to communicate it to? And like, what does that look like? How can we develop a better process for you stating your needs, working together with somebody in, you know, marching towards your revenue goal or whatever it is and bringing frameworks to that, right? Like, there's nonviolent communication, there's the Complete communication wheel. Like, there's a bunch of different ways that you can help somebody do that in terms of frameworks, so sprinkling those in where it's necessary.

And I feel like a lot of times the burnout comes from. You mentioned communication being such an important point of this. It's usually weeks and months of like, a person who just feels like everything is just piling on them. And it's like, here's more work, here's this thing, here's this thing, this is thing. And so to your point, it's like.

It'S almost like the earlier in the.

Process you can communicate this. It's going to be a little bit easier to manage. Do you also feel like. Or in your coaching, does a lot of it come back to the basics of, like, clear roles and responsibilities and goal setting and like, figuring out, like, why are we doing what we're doing? At least in the marketing, I think the most common reason for like, head of marketing burnout or team leader, really, any employee, it's because they're being asked to do a lot of work in a short period of time that they don't feel like is making a big impact. Or, you know, I feel like it's so often like when you unpack, like the. Hold on, let's set clear goals. Like, at least people on teams that I've managed, for example, that have been like a designer who gets burnt out. The reason she gets burnt out is because she's a great designer. And all of a sudden everybody knows that, and she's being asked to do a hundred different tasks every week when not all those tasks are important, not all those tasks are equal. And it's when you can pare back some of that work and say, hold on, here's the one or two things that really matter. And let's create a system around you so you don't feel like you're getting the. The brunt of all of these requests from all these other teams.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it comes down to expectations, right? Expectation settings and understanding, like, absorbing those expectations. If these expectations don't align with what's actually possible, like, what's the reality in that it needs to be addressed. And again, there's more communication to that, right? Like, okay, how do you push back on unrealistic expectations? Or how do you have somebody help you prioritize? And I think part of that too is arming somebody with the ability, ability to come to the table with, hey, here's how I look at prioritization. And here's the framework that I use for that. Can you help me? Right? Like you can't just say, hey, help me prioritize. It's here's what I think and I need you based on your expectations to also, you know, align with this. Right? Like, what am I missing here? What needs to be moved around? So arming people with frameworks for that, really.

You mentioned nonviolent communication. What is that?

It is a way of communicating that allows us to remain somewhat objective in communicating with another person. So we're not wrapping each other up into, you did this, you did that when you, you know, so it's very like, here's what I'm seeing. And then adding like, yes, this is how it made me feel. But really making sure that it is like when you said this and not forcing something onto somebody like you were being an asshole, right? It's like when you said this, I felt this. So really keeping it like in those lanes. And then a big part of it is asking for what you need. Right? What do you need? I'm recognizing that I need. And again, it's not about you. I'm recognizing that I need XYZ in order for us to do xyz and here's what I'm willing to do about that.

Is there a particular like framework or resource or for somebody who wants to learn more about that? Is there a book or how do you go and learn more about nonviolent communication?

I mean, honestly, just if you just Google it, there's going to be like tons of stuff that comes up. And yeah, there's probably like I have like a PDF on it that works through the framework. But yeah, honestly, Google will be your best friend there.

Got it. A lot of conflict happens internally when we are afraid to talk to somebody about something and it's often because we don't know how to start that conversation. And I say we because like I've been there, which is like, all right, I'm the VP of marketing. I got an issue with something that the VP of sales is doing. Oh man, I'm afraid to talk to her about this because I know that this is going to be a blow up and so is nonviolent communication like a way that I could go through that and figure out how am I going to approach this conversation? So it doesn't happen that because I do feel like so often and especially in like high growth startups, the playbook has been. Come on, it's Hana. It's just radical candor. I'm just being direct with you. But oftentimes being direct also translates to like you're being an asshole or you're being perceived as an, or you're automatically putting someone on the defensive. Is this, would this give me a playbook for having more productive conversations when I do need to address some conflict?

I think so. And it allows you to lean into it. Right? Because it's not, you're not sitting there calling them out and triggering their fight orf flight response. And you know that, you know, I like to think of it. I have a five year old and I follow this woman, she's a psychologist, I think she's called the mom psychologist. And she always says be a sportscaster, just be a sportscaster. And you're kind of doing that right? Here's what's going on, here's what I'm seeing. Okay, this happened and then I see this happen. So it's really just like stating whatever it is that happened objectively and being a successful sportscaster around that and then bringing in, okay, when this happened. Here's the emotion behind that and really sticking to like what was the core emotion? Like don't use the nebulous wishy washy language. And that's where, yeah, you do have to be direct. Here's the emotion behind that and then what's the need? So I think it allows you to really lean into that conflict, which is what you should do with conflict.

It's so great to bring it down to the five year old level. I also have a five year old. And to navigate conflict, you just know that if you approach it one of two ways, it's not going to go the way that you want. But if you can say, hey, I see that you're feeling X. I should have been communicating more with the VP of Sales like I communicate with my 5 year old and I would have had less blow ups at work.

So true.

I don't even mean that like a demeaning way. There's a very clear script into having those conversations that makes her feel seen and heard. That, that we don't often bring to the table at work.

Yeah, yeah. And I was reading this fantastic book called Neuroscience for Leaders. It's a great book, highly recommend it. I'm a big neuroscience nerd. I think in a, if I were going through a whole nother life, I would definitely go that route. But we don't recognize when we're triggering other people's fight or flight response. When you even just ask a why question that's directed at why would you do something this way? Or, you know, like, that is like a flip in our brain. And you literally are going to have the hardest time communicating with that person because they. Their amygdala is hijacked. Like, they are not in the space. And when our amygdala is hijacked and we're in that fight or flight, we can't listen. We cannot absorb new information. And so learning techniques to. And you're not responsible for regulating other people's emotions, but allowing a space where it's possible for them to continue to regulate their own emotions where you can be constructive. So coming at it of, okay, what was the process behind that? Or what was your thinking behind that? Is a better approach. And in conflict, I think, recognizing like, oh, is that person activated? Then we need to kind of take a step back, because unless they're regulated, nothing good is going to happen.

So true. That's such a good point. Are they activated? And you can usually tell, oh, this person is activated right now. Let's talk about imposter syndrome. This one comes up a lot. I see this in anonymous questions in the Exit 5 community. I see this in my inbox. I see this in podcasts. I hear, you know, hear this in podcasts and talks. Almost everybody feels like they have imposter syndrome. How do you help people navigate that?

This might be my favorite topic. I smiled really big when you said that one. So I use the term imposter syndrome because people connect to it. I absolutely hate it. I hate it. And the thing with imposter syndrome is the woman who, the psychologist that actually came up with this, it was not imposter syndrome. It was imposter phenomenon. And then it got twisted into imposter syndrome. And when you even hear that word, like, when you hear the word you have imposter syndrome, like, how does that make you feel?

It makes me feel like there's something wrong with me.

Right, exactly. And so I like to remove that language. And I also think it's a. A really fantastic way for us to stay at the surface level of not actually going to what's underneath that imposter syndrome. So I like to help people dive a little deeper into figuring out if it's not imposter syndrome and that's fake, and that's like, just a silly word. What actually is it? And what we most of the time identify is that it's fear. It's the emotion is fear and fear of what? Typically, fear of judgment, fear of failure, fear of something. Right. And so then to really work through that understanding or Belief around fear. Like, what are the assumptions that you have around feeling fear and what comes up for you there? And what do we need to do to kind of work past that, to use fear as fuel instead of something that's going to shut you down? And even asking somebody, like, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? In our coach training, we coach each other, we do a lot of coaching. And somebody asked me that question, I was like, oh, shit, nothing. Like, nothing bad. So really facing fear head on. So naming it, right? You got to. In order to move past it, you really have to name the emotion and then understanding what is it about that emotion that makes me feel nervous and why and what are other ways to look at it.

All right, so let's try to help people problem solve this a bit. So I would say the most common context that it comes up is, at least in the context of Exit 5, is somebody who is a high performer or performing highly in their job in marketing. They then get asked to become the marketing leader or run a team or pod of people. And then all of a sudden, despite being a high performer, now that they've been tapped as this leader of other people or leader of a function, or you got to present to the board or do something, they instantly go to, oh, my gosh, all of a sudden, now I have imposter syndrome. So how do we help somebody get through that? And also with the caveat that one of the reasons that I struggle with helping people through that question is because I also do believe that there are going to be some parts of work that are hard and that in order to make the next step in your life and your journey in your career, there's going to have to be some fear that you get through and you get over. And so, like, how do we help coach people through that?

Yeah, aside from kind of naming those emotions, Right. I like to use appreciative inquiry, which is really paying attention to what's working, what's working well, and how can we bring that forward for you to move into a success state. So thinking about, okay, fear is not new to you. Like, we've literally experienced this emotion many, many, many times in our lives. So let's think about a time where you did move past where the stakes were this high and it was sort of a similar situation. What was it about that moment that allowed you to move past it? And so bringing some of those things forward to help that momentum and to help you kind of see it. Right. Like, we think about things in here when we need to be looking at them like this and looking at them from different angles. So allowing them to see it from a different perspective and then use the tools that they know they already have. Like, everybody already has their own answers. Just applying them to the specific situations and expanding on them. So that's kind of how I envision helping somebody move through that. Because it's not the sitting in front of the board, right? I mean, yeah, there's an element of executive presence and being able to communicate and things like that, but it's probably deeper than that. There's probably a deeper reason behind that fear.

And oftentimes it's like you're talking to someone who's a high performer and they are really good at what they do and they know their stuff. It's like, hey, you know this stuff? You got this. But it's the gap between, like, what if I don't? And what if people find out? I don't know what this is called, but I have seen some people in high up positions who I have seen and I'm like, you know what? That person's really not that good. And that has helped me with imposter syndrome because I'm like, that person's kind of faking it.

Yeah, totally. And I think the opposite of that is also true where. And I tell people, this is a great strategy also. Who in your life or, you know, you don't have to be connected to them, but who do you admire that's doing this? Who do you admire that's already doing this? They're successful at it and they'll name somebody. And I say, what do they do? What are the little things that they do that you could also do, right? Like if you kind of put yourself in that mindset of like, oh, wait, I can do that. They get up and run every morning, or this is how they organize their tasks, or this is how they think, like their mindset. And really just moving yourself into that, that success state, like, it changes the way that you think and then that changes the way that you behave.

Okay, what else is important for us to cover while you're here? Because I have some other notes and ideas. But what have we not talked about yet that's worth getting on the air?

Hmm. I think another thing that's important is just definitions. Some people will come to me and they'll be like, I'm not a leader. Like, I can't be a leader. I just like, I can't be an executive. And I'm like, well, what does that even mean to you. And it's like they've never really thought about what it actually means. Right. Like, we just throw these words out all over the place and expect everybody to have the same definition of them. So I think it's also really important if you're moving into these positions. And I love to work with emerging executives, especially like the next generation, like millennials and like emerging leaders in Gen Z, because they want to do things differently. They do. And really just getting to. You can have your own unique definition of executive. You can have your own unique definition of leadership. Just because somebody else has that definition, it doesn't necessarily mean it has to align with yours. But then how do you align your definition with the goals of an organization, with the goals of a team? So then they figure out ways to bring that in and it becomes a really cool process of them being authentic and identifying their leadership style and, you know, really like having a mantra around that and then bringing it into their organization.

Do you have a way for people to identify their leadership style? Because, like, everybody is different. Is there a way that people can kind of like take a personality test or something like that to kind of quantify that a little bit?

Yeah, I mean, I think personality tests are interesting and I always come at that from like a being neurodivergent. Like, I hate tests. And I will take a test 10 times and never get the same result. And so that's sort of the element of personality tests that I hate. But I think that they can help showcase your strengths. Right? Like, what are you really good at? What are you good at communicating? Or are you like an initiator, activator? And so to kind of like claim some of your superpowers.

I guess maybe it doesn't have to be a personality test or some type of assessment, like even just an exercise in like strengths and weaknesses and strength finders. Like, we all have strengths, we all have weaknesses, everybody's different. And that's going to impact the team you build, the stuff you focus on, you know, like just even at a tactical level. For me, my strengths as a marketer were always like communication, brand, product marketing, content. And so at a simple level, that meant that I had to bring on strong expertise in other areas like abm, like demand gen, like some of the more marketing OP skills. And so like, okay, once I realized that, as opposed to me trying to become well rounded and becoming well versed in all of these things, it's like, well, I can be a marketing leader. Like, actually remember it was, I saw that The CMO of LinkedIn at the time, she like came up through PR and I was like, whoa, that's. You usually don't ever see any like kind of big time SaaS, CMOs, like they all had previously worked at Salesforce or did something else. I was like, oh, this is cool. She came up through pr, like, that's how I have a background in that field. And so it was like eye opening to see, like, oh, you can build. You just have to build a team around you. And so it's great to be able to like, just hone in on my strengths. And that was something that David, who's a CEO of Drift at the time, like, really helped me do. He's like, hey, you don't have to be well rounded. Like, you're great in this area. Focus on this and build a team around you. And so quiz or not. I feel like if you can help yourself at first and the people around you, identify your strengths and weaknesses and realize that everybody is a unique puzzle piece, it's never going to be this perfectly forming unit of people.

Yeah, totally. And people want to say like, oh, I'll work on my. The weak areas. No, play to your strengths. Play to your strengths. Like, that's what you gotta do. And also something that helps with some of the people that I work with is doing 360 reviews, like objective 360 reviews, where what are the other people around you? How do they perceive you? How do they perceive you as a leader? What leadership style would they say that you have adopted and your strengths and your weaknesses and then kind of getting that whole view of, yes, this is what I think, this is what other people think and this is my ideal self. And then also learning what are the kinds of leadership styles? Right. Like somebody will say, I'm a servant leader. And I'm like, do you actually know what that means? Like, it's actual theory behind that. So understanding. And there's tons of books and articles out there on leadership styles. But you know, once you get through that, kind of like, okay, here are my strengths, here's what my team sees me as, here's what I think. And then aligning that with like a more formal leadership style I think is powerful. There's a really cool quote that I love, Peter Anderson. I think he has a TED Talk and it's the two rules of leadership. And it's not about you and it's all about you.

Yeah, it's great. How do you interpret that? How would you unpack that story?

I mean, I think of it as like, you have to develop yourself first as a leader. And once you do that, you sort of like abandon the amount of time that you spend on yourself. Right. Because you've done it, you've done the work, you've built that foundation. And that, that's awesome. That's what you have to do to inspire change. And then when you move into leadership, right, where you're guiding people, like you've got the core of what's needed to happen in order to do that, and that's you. But when you move into leadership, then it's not about you, it's about the people, it's about the organization and the systems and then those skills. So it's like two different set of skills that you kind of have to work on is like the leader development and then the leadership development.

Nice. Yeah. Like you can't be an effective leader unless you know yourself. Okay, let's wrap up on this little segment. You talk often in your LinkedIn website, other places about helping people get unstuck in your career. Not that we can fully do this for people in like eight minutes, but for those who might be listening to this that feel like they're stuck in your career, can we just talk about that? How do you know if you're stuck? How do you diagnose that? What do you do from there? What's kind of the, the five minute exercise we can, we can leave people with.

Yeah, and this is a big one. This is like, everybody has experienced this. And a good question that I like to ask is if you had all the resources that you needed and you didn't have to worry about being right or wrong or punished or anything like that, what actions would you take or what would you be doing? And so really just removing the constraints. Right. Like when we're stuck, we feel, feel like we're stuck. Right. We're in a box, we can't move. And so helping people expand into, okay, all of the opportunities in front of you. And actually looking at, okay, I'm thinking of one scenario of how many infinite. Right. Infinite scenarios. And so allowing people to just like remove some of those constraints that, you know, it's a little bit of like a, I guess like philosophical exercise, but because it's not ever going to happen. But it then sparks a thought. It sparks a thought of, oh, hey, you know what I didn't think about, I could be using this resource or this support or I know somebody here or it's usually that reminds me. And so just going through that kind of an exercise allows you to expand. And when we expand, we see more opportunities, we're more objective, we see all of the different pathways, and then we start thinking about, ooh, like, what is the resource or support that? Then I do need to achieve that. Another interesting way to look at it is, like, what's ideal? Right. Like, here you are. Okay, here's the ideal state. What's blocking you? What's in there that's blocking you? And just identifying those different blockers and then taking one by one like this. And this can't always happen in one coaching session, but like, okay, we have these six blockers. Let's work through them. Them. And within those six blockers, we're going to spend time on each one and we're going to understand, you know, why is it important? How are we going to measure if we've removed this block? And really, like, what are you going to do? What's the plan here? What do we need to do to get past it?

This is a separate but somewhat related quote or question, but it's more of like a life. Like, okay, not specifically I'm stuck in my career as a marketer, but just kind of like the most existential question you can ask, which is, what would you work on if nobody was looking and if money weren't an object? Just like saying that, like, out loud. Right. What would you work on if nobody was looking or if money was not an object? Because I think for a lot of people that then frames like, what. What would you be doing right now?

Yep, it's a great question.

The hard part is, so oftentimes the answer to that question is like, I would just sit on a beach and read books all day. And then you're like, okay, well, how are you going to pay for your mortgage? How are you going to pay for your kids call? Like, you know, you do kind of come back to like, well, I need to. I need to have a business. I need to generate income at some point. And that's when you kind of come back to, like, the strengths finder and say, like, well, what is the area that I am passionate about and also have skills in and also can, you know, generate income from. And that comes back to that kind of more of like the Venn diagram exercise that you mentioned earlier.

Yeah. And I think it goes back to your. Your why, like, your purpose? Right. Are you gonna sit on a beach all day? How does that align to your purpose in life?

Right, right. Yeah. For you, like, you want to help people, you want to help people, you know, achieve and be the best versions of themselves. Like, that's not going to happen. If you just sit on a beach.

All day and people might say, yeah, my purpose in life is to, like, live the highest life of luxury with joy and all that. Okay, that's great. And if that is your purpose and laying on a beach will satisfy that, then you need to, to seriously think of what are the baby steps that you're going to take to get you closer to that.

Okay, this was fantastic. People are going to say we should do this again. And I think we should do this again maybe like in another quarter and come back and, and talk about what else you got going on. But before we wrap up, where can people get more of you, more of your content, more of your perspective on. On this type of stuff as it relates to career and, and managing burnout and figuring out yourself?

I am on LinkedIn. That's probably the best place. I started TikTok actually earlier last year and I'm taking a break this week. I'm doing an experiment where I don't post, but there's lots of existing content there that you can go and check out. And I talk a lot about these things.

Why are you taking a break this week?

So it's an experiment that I'm doing to see because I think that I'm spreading myself too thin when it comes to content distribution. And I really want to focus on my existing network and serving that network, which is primarily on LinkedIn. I'm also wanting to start a podcast all around authentic leadership journeys. And that's what I want to focus on. So that's kind of this week. I'm just testing it out, but there's lots of existing content and videos on there, if that's your preference. And yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. That would be the best way.

Yeah, that's great. I was going to say you should have a podcast.

That's the goal. And you could be on mine.

Let's do it. Run it back. And having your podcast would also scratch the, like, TikTok itch anyway. You could. It could just become a distribution channel. But then back to the why. You might feel like you have more of a why for having TikTok content because it's all rooted in your podcast.

Yep, you're in my brain.

I'm thinking out loud with you. But I love it. I know that. I'm saying you should do it because I know that based on the questions that I see and the things that come up related to this podcast, I know that. Yes. Everybody that's listening is in marketing and B2B marketing, but they're all people, and most people need more help and want more help on this type of stuff. And so I'm glad we did this podcast. I'm glad you're here. I can't wait to get this episode out. Hana, thank you so much for doing this. We'll stay in touch and I appreciate you and everybody. Make sure you go and follow connect, send some LinkedIn requests. That's my favorite part of doing this podcast, is when after the guest is like, I got so many LinkedIn messages after. That's how I measure the success of these episodes.

Yes. And can I add one more thing?

Yes.

I am all about value, right? Like, value upfront is so important. And I actually do with, like meeting people who are interested in coaching. I talk to them for 15 minutes and then we coach. And that's like an introductory session. It's, you know, that's how I meet with people, is we do a coaching session. So if that's something you're interested in, let me know because that's what I love doing.

Oh, I love that. All right, so Hana's LinkedIn is going to be in the description for this event, this podcast. You can click on it, go right to her profile, send her a message, and say, I heard about you on the Exit 5 podcast. I would love to take you up on your offer to do a call. That would be great. How's that?

Love it. Thank you.

Cool. All right, I'll see you later. Thanks for doing this. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of the Exit 5 podcast. If you're in B2B marketing and you want to grow your career, you should also go and check out every everything that we have over@exit5.com. We've got articles, we've got videos, we've got templates, plus we have a community. A community of over 4000 B2B marketing pros.

Whether you're deep in your career and.

Want to connect with your peers or just starting up and you want a place to go where you can see what people are talking about, get smarter about B2B marketing in your own time. To grow your career and help grow your company, go and check it out. It's exit5.com you can get on the email list there you can join the community. There's 4,000 marketers in the community. We have a job board. We're always adding new stuff. It's really becoming the number one place you can go. If you want to grow your career and learn more about B2B marketing outside of what you're doing inside of your company every day. So check it out. Exit5.com and I also want to make sure I give a shout out to my friends at Hatch. That's Hatch fm. They produce this podcast. It sounds amazing because of the work that they they do and they work with B2B companies just like yours. They offer unlimited podcast editing and strategy for businesses. You can get unlimited podcast editing and on demand strategy for a low monthly cost. All you gotta do is just upload your episode and they take care of the rest. Go and check them out. It's Hatch fm.

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