#82: What Does a Great CMO Do? with Jon Miller (CMO at Demandbase; Co-Founder of Marketo & Engagio)

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All right, John, you're in, you're safe, you're sound, you're here. Yeah, a bunch of people here. And one of the reasons that we wanted to have you here is I think you have probably the most consistently best perspective on what it takes to be a great CMO today and wanted to tap into some of that with the community. We got people here that want to ask you questions and chat live. And then this is also going to be a podcast episode on the Exit 5 podcast later. So for anybody that doesn't know, can you give us the elevator backstory of who you are you right now, you're CMO at Demandbase, you co founded Engagio, you co founded Marketo. Give me, in your words, the John Miller backstory.

Well, I think that that's the bio headline right there. The backstory is that I've been a marketing startup tech entrepreneur for almost my entire career, but I actually studied physics for my undergraduate degree and then I sort of found myself in management consulting, which quickly led me to a company called Exchange Partners, which spun off a tech company called Exchange that went on to become the leading martech platform of the late 90s. And through a series of coincidences and luck that led me to my first job out of business school as a first product manager at a company called Epiphany. Epiphany went on to be probably the hottest martech company of the Internet bubble. And that's where I met Phil Fernandez and Dave Mirandi, who ended up being my Marketo co founders when we sold epiphany in late 2004. So nine years at Marketo, I left post IPO, but before the Vista and Adobe acquisitions. And I left to start Engage you, where I felt like I now had enough experience to maybe tackle the CEO role. Spent a little over five years building Engage IO and then in 2020 made the decision to merge with my largest competitor, Demand Base. Turns out that what we had built was totally complementary to each other. There's almost no functional overlap, even though we were both saying that we were ABM platforms. That's just an interesting side effect of what it means when the category is early and everybody's innovating. So I joined Demandbase, helped lead the integration of the platforms, and now I'm CMO there.

Awesome. And one thing that I wanted to get your perspective on right now before we get into questions, talk about the CMO role. But just I got to ask you, because you're here, you've been closer to Martech than probably anybody out there in the last 10, 15, 20 years. As we sit here, Q2 of 2023, what is your just kind of overall take of what's going on in B2B SaaS and marketing right now and what has you excited? What keeps you excited about marketing at this point in time?

Yeah, well, I mean, some different interesting angles to that question. I mean, the first I'll say is I've been building Martech and you know, for almost 20 years. There's sales companies, there's constant innovation happening. Right. And you would think with all the innovation and all the new technology and all the new next big ideas, that somehow we'd be sitting here today and it would just be easy to just use all this tech and all this great stuff and pipeline just happens automatically. And you know what? It's not true. Despite all this investment in tech and innovation, sales reps are selling about the same amount per year than as they were doing before. There hasn't been this massive unlock in productivity. So I think there's a couple things going on with that, you know, not the least, which is, you know, it's. It can be a bit of an arms race. If everybody else is innovating and moving forward and using the latest tech and you're not, you'll just fall behind. So it arguably, in some cases, this stuff is not, you know, do you need to do this to get a leg ahead of the competition? You need to do this to keep up with the competition. But I think today, here in the middle of 2023, there's other stuff. It's. It's hard out there, and I think it's hard for a bunch of reasons. But more than anything else, the playbook that I used to preach at Marketo, which is sort of the classic marketing model of use content and inbound tactics to generate leads, you don't pass those to sales until they're ready, you nurture them and you score them and then you do pass them when you actually think they're kind of raising their hand. And then sales takes over and runs it. And it's a very measurable, highly trackable process. Like that's what, you know, I'll call out the marketo playbook. And more and more companies that I see using that playbook are basically reporting that it's not working as well today. Buyers have gotten indifferent to all those tactics. You know, they figured out that if they fill out a form to get your ebook, they're going to start getting emails and phone calls they don't want. They're finding ways to stay more anonymous. I think with all that investment in demand capture, we've underinvested in our brands and as a result, you know, we're sort of, you know, all going after the 5% of companies that are actually in market and not enough people looking to sort of build the market for the other 95%.

You know, I love that. I want to pause on that because you, you wrote something you actually wrote, wrote about this within the last week, couple weeks on LinkedIn. I remember I just saw it, which is basically, hey, look, only 5% of buyers are in market right now. And like, yeah, to your point, you can capture them via Google Search, you know, SEO SEM, but the magic or the real growth happens in that other 95%. But I've seen the same trend as you have, which is marketers are struggling right now, sales cycles are slowing down, demand is slowing down. As a CEO and a cmo, how do you make the case to go and do that? Right, because the company growth is slowed. And so like marketing is supposed to, like, we got to generate revenue. Like marketing should only be doing things that are highly measurable to go and generate revenue. But it's so obvious that you also need to be going and investing in brand. Like, how do you articulate that and say, hey, we want to go do some stuff and make these investments in brand? They're not going to be easily trackable and measurable. They're not going to pay off for a while. How do you make that case in a time where everybody's kind of feeling the short term crunch?

Well, I don't think you should go to your CEO or CFO and suddenly say, hey, I need twice the marketing budget because you're not going to get it. I think you've got to sort of say, I'm working with a fixed piece of. But it should be the responsibility of the marketer to make the decisions about where to invest that budget, invest that portfolio. If you're in an economy where your traditional tactics are just going to be delivering less roi, then it actually becomes a perfectly reasonable thing to do, to do less of those traditional tactics, to free up the budget, to do some of these other things that will be less measurable but will deliver, you know, a longer term impact. And that's hard.

Do you see a lot of marketing teams doing just kind of marketing for the sake of marketing? Like, you just kind of get on this hamster wheel of like, we're going to write four or five articles a week for the blog, we're going to send a bunch of emails, we're going to do a bunch of webinars.

Like I do.

Like how you frame that, like just you're doing all those things. But if they're not working, like, why go and spend the time. Do you see a lot of marketing stuff for the sake of marketing that teams are doing?

I do. And I think it's because it's a hope it's going to work. The reality is you've got a pipeline goal that you're trying to meet. You've got a budget that you've been allocated to try to achieve that pipeline goal. Your whole career you've done that by doing webinars and content and events and content syndication. It's not surprising you're going to want to keep doing those things even if they're actually not working as well as they worked three or four years ago. So I get it. I'm not saying this is easy.

All right, I'm going to hit you with some questions that we got. We got some of these in advance and people will, people will put them in the chat once they get warmed up a little bit. This question is from Jake. Can you share some of the key challenges you faced in the early stages of founding Marketo and how you came then? Maybe just one or two big roadblocks from the early Marketo days.

Yeah, well, starting Marketo in the early days was hard. Like the company almost didn't actually get off the ground. And it was an interesting experience where we could go speak to a CMO about what we were trying to build. And they loved it. They're like, I need this, I want this, how can I get it? But then we'd go pitch a VC to get the funding and the VCs, again, you have to think back to 2005. The VCs were like, I don't get it. SaaS is sold by seats. That's how they thought SaaS worked back in 2005. And you can't sell enough seats in marketing. And look at the history of Martech. There's never been a successful or really successful Martech company. There's all these companies like Rubrik and Broadbase and even eventually Epiphany, which didn't do so on the other side of the Internet bubble, basically couldn't get venture funding or anybody to believe in the vision to invest in it. The reason we got lucky in the end, when we met Bruce Cleveland and Doug Pepper at Interwest, Bruce had just joined the firm. Previously he had been a marketing executive at Siebel and like literally we were like his first meeting or something. He was that new to the firm and so pitching him felt like pitching a marketer and not a vc. He got the idea, he got the vision, and then along with his partner Doug, they were able to really champion the investment. The other challenge I'll share from the early days of Marketo is a bit non intuitive, but our vision for Marketo was always we want to build serious marketing technology, but we want to make it easy to buy, easy to own and easy to use. We want it to be as easy to buy Marketo as it was to buy Google AdWords. And so our first products, we were doing what today is called PLG or product led growth. We just didn't call it that then because nobody called it that. But you could literally go to Marketo.com and hit try the product and create an account and start using it for free. And then after your 30 day free trial, if you wanted to keep using it, we'd start charging you literally for what you used. Not even kind of metered based pricing. And so there was basically no barrier to getting in and trying this thing. Surprisingly, that was a problem, not a benefit, at least back in 2005, because this stuff was new and it wasn't like people could log into a marketing automation system and know what to do with it. So people would log in and even though we made the product pretty easy to use, they'd be like, okay, now what? It was almost like opening up an open, empty Excel spreadsheet and then somebody telling somebody to go do something. And so we had people who kind of bounce out because they just did. There was an intellectual challenge like, what am I going to do here? And with no barrier of entry to get in, there was no incentive or skin in the game to figure it out. What actually unlocks Marketo is when we started charging $1,000 a month minimum. And now all of a sudden people had to sign up for something and there was some skin in the game to do the work to figure this thing out. And that effort really started to make it work first.

I love that you have a great example of everything. Especially you've been in this industry, you've seen every wave. So you probably roll your eyes at all the new names and everything. You're like, man, we were doing PLG in 2005. That's just what it's just what it's called now. We've been doing that forever. The second thing is I also think it just speaks to making a decision just because you can let people try the product strategically. This is a new category or a new wave of doing marketing, a new way of doing marketing automation. And so you can't just let everybody use it. You had to clearly like have people do it your way and get more commitment. And that's an example where just letting them try the product for free wasn't necessarily the best experience for them. Next question is. This one is from Joel. As a cmo, if you're coming into a new company as a cmo, what questions would be important to ask for the founders? Like how would you interview the founders for your job if you had your pick? As a cmo?

Interesting question. Couple things that I'd want to try to suss out. The first is I don't care how good a marketer you are, if the company doesn't have product market fit, your marketing is not going to be very successful. I really believe that's true. I'll tell you an example. You know, at Engageo we built a product called Playmaker and it demoed great, it looked sexy and we were able to market the hell of that thing and we were able to get a lot of people to sign up for it. And it turns out we couldn't really get a lot of people to keep using it or renew. Was a challenge. We were scaling the marketing before there was product market fit. Number one thing I'd really want to explore joining a company, especially if it's an earlier stage company, is understand product market fit. And there's a bunch of metrics you can kind of look at to measure that. And I don't remember them all off the top of my head, but renewal rate is definitely one of those because our people kind of signing up for it quickly. A couple other questions. This is courtesy of one of my investors, Sean Jacobson. What percent of the customers are companies that you did not know before starting the company. And at Engageo there are a lot of people who signed up because they loved Marketo and they were going to buy whatever I build next. And I didn't necessarily know those people, but they didn't buy because of the product. They were buying because they were excited about the vision. And what you want is people who are buying excited because of the product. People who literally no connection there. The classic question for product market fit is how much pain would the customer experience if the product went away? And you'd want them to be feeling a lot of pain, not a little bit of pain. I mentioned retention and Churn and then I think the last one to kind of look at would be kind of word of mouth virality. Are you getting customers? Because other customers are mentioning this product. So that's a whole set of things around. I really want to understand that. And then the second set of things that I want to understand per the discussion I just had and Carlos's comment here is this a CEO and a board that gets marketing. Do they perceive marketing as just a cost center or do they understand that this is something to invest in and will they support you to do the right things? Because being in a company where you don't have that level of support, it's just too hard. It's frankly not worth it taking that CMO job because you know, you, you're not likely to be successful, you know, over time.

Do you have some quick hits in that bucket of like how you roughly, how do you tell if someone gets marketing? Like how would you articulate that?

Talk to me about how you set the marketing budgets. Try to explore, I try to just ask questions I understand like do they get the need to invest in brand over time? The extreme version is they see marketing as the team that makes throws parties and makes color brochures, you know, and you want to make sure that they don't think of it that way. And part of this is understanding the relationship with the sales leader, if there is one. And do you believe you can work with that person as a true peer and not as a support function?

And on your point about product market fit, if you're a marketer, should you not join a company that's pre product market fit? Should that company not hire a cmo? Because there's gotta be some marketing should play some role in helping them achieve product market fit.

But how do you explain that risky as a CMO and arguably a company that early probably should not necessarily be Hiring a CX level leader to run marketing. Maybe they need a director of marketing or something. Got it.

Okay, cool. That makes sense. What critical mistakes would you want to avoid getting sucked into making as a new cmo? I'll give you an example. Somebody once told me, I took a new CMO job and they said, all right, whatever you do, don't come in and just change the website and positioning in the first three months. Like, you got to learn more about that. That's what everybody wants to do.

Everybody does want to change the website and positioning the first three months. That's true. Which sometimes there's good reasons for that. But yeah, I mean, certainly, you know, learn before you act. There's so many different situations. I mean, I've talked to a lot of CMOs who join a company where honestly just some of the basics are so broken, you know, like, yes, the website's a mess and there's no SEO, you know, and there's not even good forms to like capture leads. And so I mean, I'm saying what you should do, which is like, I guarantee you there's going to be a handful of quick wins. So maybe that's what you shouldn't do, is don't wait the three months before delivering some quick wins. Instantly start showing some early impact and value. I think Jason Lemkin has an interesting post. Like, if your CMO doesn't do this in the first 90 days, then they're the wrong CMO. At least show some major movement or impact on the business. But that doesn't necessarily have to mean, hey, go redo the website. I'll give you another thing. Again, this is more I think should do than shouldn't do. But one of the beliefs I have on CMOs and I've told this to investors and CEOs, is that you have to remember there's three major pillars to B2B, marketing, know, and marketing, probably in general. Number one is the demand gen, pipeline, creation, revenue side of things. Number two is the product marketing, messaging, positioning strategy side of things. And number three is the corporate marketing, brand, creative production side of things. I believe that you'll never find the unicorn CMO who's going to be really good at all.

3.

What you're going to find is somebody has a major in one of those, a minor in the other in another, and a gap in the third. This means for hiring, you know, and when you're evaluating potential CMO jobs, it's really critical to have, I think good fit between what the company needs and the person that they hire. And then if you're joining as a cmo, a mistake I see people make a lot is they tend to hire into the area of their strength.

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I don't want to overstate that. Like, it's all perfection and roses. And I have all this kind of figured out. It's one of the things where I really do think that marketing does need to sort of be focused on things that are less measurable than they have in the past. That the brand stuff's important. One of the things that I've been writing about is marketing. Yeah, we need to get rid of the concept of marketing sourced pipeline versus Salesforce pipeline and instead focus on team sourced pipeline. But that's another thing that actually makes it harder to work with the cfo, not easier because the more you disconnect the dollars to the outcomes, the tougher it is I think for the cfo. So I think it comes down to a little bit. You want to have a relationship built on respect and trust and part of that is good old fashioned interpersonal relations. Go hang out with your CFO and take him or her for a beer or a glass of wine or whatever is the appropriate thing to do. And from there, I guess even if you're not going to sort of have everything tied down to the penny in terms of this model, I talk about, don't treat marketing like a gumball machine where you kind of put your campaign in and out come the dollars. That doesn't mean you can't have metrics. They're just going to be more leading indicators and other things. And I think, you know, being really on top of your metrics will help with the cfo, even if it's not directly. Here is marketing's contribution to pipeline down to the penny.

And probably similar to what John, for those listening John said about the building A asking about the CEO, like the more you can dig into understanding, like what does the CFO care about in this business? What metrics do they want? How are they going to think about marketing? All those things will help. Let's go back to something that you just mentioned, which people have mentioned before in this community. I saw it just come up now. Can you share more about this idea of marketing source pipeline versus sales source pipeline and why it should be team source pipeline? What's wrong with that? Why you like it? Maybe how to do it?

Yeah, the link I threw in the chat by the way, talks about this as well. So I think in the old marketo model where marketing would generate leads and hand them off to sales, the metaphor there is like a relay race where the baton gets passed. But I think that's a very linear model. Thinking about the buying process, I think the buying process today looks much more nonlinear and much more complex with more broader, more members of the buying committee, more self service research. And if you think about that nonlinear process, I think it may be a better metaphor for how market and sales work together is something that looks more like a soccer or European football team. You can almost think about the path the ball takes as it goes towards the goal. That's a very non linear path. But what you have is you have players in different positions, forwards and fullbacks, etc. That are working together to achieve a shared goal, which is getting a goal. And so that's the analogy for sales and marketing. You've got players in different positions, but we should be working together as an integrated team to kind of achieve the outcome. So now imagine a soccer team that had two scoreboards. One for the goal scored by the forwards and one for the goals scored by the fullbacks.

That's an amazing analogy.

Or even worse, if you only paid people for the scores, that the goals, they actually kicked the last ball in, they would never pass the ball. And so I think they tried to assign credit to marketing source versus sales source. Breaks down the very teamwork that we need to succeed in generating pipeline and revenue today.

So what does it take to execute on that? If I'm listening to this and I want to bring that to my company, I think a lot of people will agree. And then it's just like, well, shoot, but how am I? Like, how do I measure that? Like, I still need to measure our effectiveness somehow. Is there a tactical way that I can think about what I might need to do to put that in play?

Well, I mean, so again, you start by having a shared goal. Companies exist with other shared goals, right? Like retention is a shared goal between the account managers and the CSMs. And what you usually do there is you're like, okay, we have one shared number. And that's what the business really ultimately cares about. But it goes back to what I said earlier. You can still have other leading indicators and other leading metrics. Are we increasing engagement with the right accounts? You know, can be a marketing specific metric. When there is an account that marketing has sort of identified as hot, how do those convert forward into the pipeline? I think you can also look at efficiency metrics. Hey, what is the total marketing budget and how much pipeline are we creating and what are those ratios? And again, focus on total pipeline. And ultimately, I think the answer here is to use industry benchmarks more in terms of setting these numbers and these metrics. I think that's something CFOs will respect is. Okay, across all SaaS companies, the average marketing ROI is $16 of pipeline created by the team for every dollar of marketing budget. Look, we're here at 14, so yeah, there's some room to improve here. But I think that's how you start to kind of, you know, bring the conversation to the table.

Isn't the whole thing you talked about with marketing source for Salesforce and being a team, doesn't that also like, perfectly make the case for abm?

Yeah, I mean, you could say one which one leads, which one lags? Right? You can't do ABM if marketing sales aren't a team. Right?

Well, like I did it one time. I interviewed Hilary Carpio. She runs ABM at Snowflake and I was like, hey, people want to know about like how, how do you get sales and marketing aligned? And she kind of looked at me and she's like, what do you mean? Like we our motion, our go to market motion is abm. By fundamentally we have to be aligned. I feel like most of the misalignment comes in companies that are kind of like half in, half out or not not fully adopted that approach.

I have some thoughts on sort of specific things you can do to drive Please More Marketing, Sales alignment Three things. Number one, start by defining a shared document that defines what I call your entitlements. What are you going to do for accounts across sales and marketing based on the account tier? If this is a Tier 1 account or a Tier 2 account, marketing will invest this much per quarter. We'll do these kinds of direct mail campaigns. SDRs will reach out this frequently and do that work to document that entitlements document. So that's kind of step number one. I'm going to throw into the chat here another link which is a link to the actual draft of the or, sorry, a sample of the actual entitlements document that we use ourselves at demand base and you can share that with the community.

Amazing.

Step two, marketing should not do the account selection. Sales should do the account selection because then sales feels bought into the process. Marketing should drive the process with data and intelligence, but sales ultimately makes the selections. And then number three, this one is seems so simple but a lot of companies don't do it and I think they worry about the ability to make it happen.

But.

But it's something that you got to do is implement what we call the account based standup which is, you know, say every two weeks a quick short meeting for 10 minutes between the sales rep and a marketer and an SDR if one exists. And the goal is not a forecast call or anything, it's what are we going to do with your target accounts, what's happening and what plays are we going to run? And if I switch to my sports analogies to American football, this is your pre play huddle. What's going on? What plays are we going to run? And if those three processes to me drive a lot of sales and marketing alignment, awesome.

That doc is great. I just opened it and there's already a bunch of eyeballs in there, which is awesome. Okay, one more question that I had in a note and as a follow up out of that before I get back to other people's questions, you mentioned relying on SaaS benchmarks getting SaaS benchmarks. Do you have any preferred place to go to get those?

I really love Insight Partners. I link to that in the article that we talked about a little bit earlier. They publish a B2B SaaS benchmark that has got the most actionable data I've seen for B2B companies. Cmosurvey.org also publishes some decent benchmarks. They're useful if you don't happen to be a B2B SaaS tech company. But for the B2B SaaS, those Insight partners benchmarks are gold.

Great. Thanks for those. This question is from Sunny Coming into a new CMO role, how do you go about evaluating the team and processes that are in place so that you can make the right changes? I can see and have experienced a world where making changes too quickly causes issues in and of its own, so I'd love to understand how you think about the right timeline is for implementing certain changes inside of the team.

So first off, I'll tell you why I'm hesitating to answer, which is that I've rarely done that in my career. You know, most of the time when I've been, you know, I mean by marketo, when I was a cmo, I built the team rather than inherited the team. Even at demand base, I joined as chief Product officer and so I had six months at the company before I took over the marketing team. And that gave me some decent amount of time to observe and really kind of get a better sense of understanding what was happening in marketing. So now, having caveated that I may not be the most qualified to answer this question, I'll just give a fairly short generic answer of you're basically going to interview people, meet them, talk to them about what they're doing, and then I would trust your gut over time around kind of who's good, who's not good. One other thought I'll throw on here is I do think a new CMO coming in will often have there's usually two reasons why a new CMO is coming in, right? Either the company is somehow messed up and not doing well and that CMO has decided to leave, right? And hopefully as an incoming cmo, you're sniffing those out and maybe not joining unless you're really good at turnaround and that's your specialty. But the other reason is the company's doing fine, but marketing is not working so they need to make a change. I think a lot of CMOs are coming into that environment where the remit is, hey, things are messed up, we need you to come fix things. That's probably true. And you probably should come in expecting that you're going to need to make some changes. The caveat I'll say though is there's probably some really good stuff happening too. And if you go back to my point about the three pillars of marketing, demand gen pipeline, product marketing and corporate marketing, what you'll probably see is that the gaps of the old leader are the areas that aren't working and the strengths of the old leader are working. You've probably been brought in because you're going to have a different set of strengths, majors and minors. I guess part of the advice would be the part that was the strength of the old leader is probably pretty good. Don't necessarily think that needs to be changed also along with everything else.

Awesome. That's a great answer and a great perspective to back into that. Okay, this question is from Dave. That was me. This is my pre submitted question, but I want to know, I want to hear your opinion. A lot of marketing teams who are struggling right now, how do you diagnose what you should be doing? Sales is slowing down, everything's kind of not working like it used to be. Like what the heck do you do? How do you come up with a framework to go and tackle this?

Well, the thought that comes to my mind first goes back to some advice from Jason Lemkin, which is advice for a CEO, but I think works here too. His advice was if when you don't know what to do, get on a plane. In other words, when you don't know what to do, go talk to customers. That's the first place my brain goes here is like go interview 10 customers and five prospects to get those outside perspectives, not inside perspectives around where things are and what needs to, you know, what's working, what's not working. And I have a hunch that would guide, you know. And by the way, as an executive, are you talking to customers every single week? And you know, the more you can do that, I think the better, you know, that will kind of guide you the right answers.

Good one. Back to first principles. This question is from Bertrand in the chat. Which critical marketing capabilities should be in house first delegated to agencies? Basically, if your marketing team was limited to a few full time headcount, which positions would you fill up first and then what would you hire for agencies?

I guess I sort of would go back to what I said earlier around, you know, make sure you build a world class team around your gap. So if you're really limited, I probably hope that you would lean towards the agencies in your strengths, you know, as opposed to your gaps, because you want to build that great in house team. And I say that recognizing that's not what most people do because it's hard. But if you're inheriting a team, you know, it's going to be pretty obvious where the gaps are and that's, you know, obviously where you can supplement with the right agency.

All right, we're going to wrap up on this one. We'll get you out here a little bit, a little bit early, before the rest of your day. You've been in Martech for a bit, you've seen a lot. Are you buying or selling AI?

Definitely buying, if I understand your question. I'll start off with saying, like, I live with four tabs open on my browser all the time. It's my mail tab, it's my calendar tab, it's LinkedIn actually. And then it's now it's ChatGPT, like pinned, open tab all the time. So I'm using it almost daily for. Not to generate things, but to transform things. Whether it's like, hey, I just, I'll write and I'll write crappy, like just junk, whatever I can put out there. Hey, and then I have a prompt I actually created, which was, you know, here are eight articles I've written, analyzed it for my tone, voice and style. And then I use that prompt to be like, rewrite this crap in my tone.

So do you put that in first every time or has it like, can it save that prompt and do it?

I use the same prompt over and over and over.

Cool.

So that's again, that's transforming. I use to summarize things, you know, that kind of stuff. And sometimes for brainstorming, but never like, just, hey, write me something about X. So I use it all the time. And I tell my team, if you're not using this every single day, you're falling behind. It's a skill. Prompt writing is a skill and I think you get better at it when you do it more. And people have to be doing it better. So that's kind of on the personal usage side. As a Martech vendor, any Martech company that isn't aggressively thinking about using this technology will also fall behind and it creates massive opportunities for disruption. I sometimes think about, hey, one day in the future I will do a startup again, start another business, and what are those opportunities in AI today? And it's moving dizzyingly fast. Almost like I don't feel like I can necessarily keep up with it. But that's all saying like, this is a big opportunity.

Cool. Those are big words coming from you given what you've done in your career. So I hope people listening are taking that to heart and pinning ChatGPT in their browser and start finding creative ways to use it. John Miller, thank you so much. I know people will get a lot of value out of this episode. If you're listening to this, do me a Favor, go to LinkedIn, type in John Miller, send John a message or reach out to him. You know about anything you learned from this episode. And also do what I do, which is try to like and comment on many of his posts so they show up more in your feed. Because he has very. I don't know if it's him or chatgpt or a combination of both, but it doesn't matter because it's damn good B2B marketing advice and expertise. Thanks, John. We will see you out there. Thank you. All right, see you later. Goodbye everybody. Enjoy the rest of your day. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of the Exit 5 podcast. If you're in B2B marketing and you want to grow your career, you should also go and check out everything that we have over@exit5.com we've got articles, we've got videos, we've got templates. Plus we have a community. A community of over 4000 B2B marketing pros. Whether you're deep in your career and want to connect with your peers or just starting up and you want a place to go where you can see where what people are talking about, get smarter about B2B marketing in your own time to grow your career and help grow your company. Go and check it out. It's exit5.com you can get on the email list. There you can join the community. There's 4,000 marketers in the community. We have a job board. We're always adding new stuff. It's really becoming the number one place you can go if you want to grow your career and learn more about B2B marketing outside of what you're doing inside of your company every day. So check it out. Exit from and I also want to make sure I give a shout out to my friends at Hatch. That's Hatch fm. They produce this podcast. It sounds amazing because of the work that they do and they work with B2B companies just like yours. They offer unlimited podcast editing and strategy for businesses. You can get unlimited podcast setting and on demand strategy for a low monthly cost. All you got to do is just upload your episode and they take care of the rest. Go and check them out. It's Hatch.

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