Henry's Story

I'm going to introduce myself. I'm Deb Bushong-Sung. I'm the founder, owner, and therapist of Conversations Therapy. And I'm going to let this guy introduce himself.

Hi, my name is Henry Ross. I, uh, that's me. Very good. Good job.

You got your name right.

I, I, it took a lot. I rehearsed.

Okay. Um, Henry, where do you think your recovery story starts?

It started when it was not— it was the very last time that I was actually admitted to the mental hospital. And I like sat there and like the therapist there who just like was kind of talking to everybody, but looked at me, said, "You can't stop denying that you are like, you have schizophrenia. You just have to accept it and learn to live with it." And they said, "You just have to do that." And I was like, "No, I can't do that. I literally cannot accept a life where I, have no executive authority over myself. That just didn't fly with me. So I sat there in that hospital for the longest and just willed it into existence. I was like, this isn't going to happen. So I thought of alternatives. I went around Tried to figure some solutions out.

So one of my questions later is tell me about a time that you were in denial. Would you say that's a good one?

Well, denial, like I know because I'm better now. It was like I went to a psychiatrist and just actually like 2 months ago now, like just after I started my job. And I was like, I want to be reevaluated. And I have shown zero symptoms since then. It was what they think it was, a very long drug-induced psychosis. And I was like, okay, I haven't touched anything. I don't want to. I don't want to be like run by that idea.

Yeah. Do you not consider that recovery then?

Oh, I consider it recovery from psychosis for sure. It just wasn't schizophrenia. Okay. Yeah.

What was the thing that brought you to treatment?

Very like debilitating auditory hallucinations. Yeah, like it was, it was miserable.

So what does— so we've kind of danced around a little bit then. So what does recovery mean to you?

Recovery means coming to terms with your, your actual reality and not like holding on to what you were or what you thought you were going to be. Just finding that new, like, what is and running with that. So that's because, I mean, that's what— that's where people, like, are stuck, is that they don't want to accept one or the other, or they want one or the other, and they can't accept, like, anything in the moment, or move on.

Yeah. Okay. How important is the concept of hope to recovery?

That is like actually like one of the biggest ones. Like I was like, I saw me, I came in and I like towards the beginning I was just like down like bad. Like, and I just like, I couldn't, I couldn't keep positive and I was like, well, I mean, this is still like a choice that I'm making to just be so sad. So I was like, well, I'm just gonna run in the other direction and like fake it till I make it. And like, I totally did. Like, I was like, I, I like, I like would smile and just be like so sad. Like, and then I was like, you know, like, um, uh, have you seen that experiment where like the, the guy walks into a crowd of people and all he does is smile, and then another guy looks at him and he starts smiling, and then another person looks at those two people and they start smiling, and then it spreads like a virus. I mean, like, yeah, and the same thing happens with sadness. Absolutely.

Yeah.

And I mean, like, that— I just, like, I don't want— I didn't want to do that. And so now I exude positivity. Like, like, people think that I'm like, I'm like, you know, like a goody two shoes, or like, you know, like, literally, like You know, like nothing could make me sad. I'm like, well, not anymore.

Just have him talk to me.

Yeah, there's, there's, there's a, uh, I have a way high bar for what sadness is. So anything below that is just, it's gravy. I'm totally cool with it. I know how bad it could be.

So that's good. Um, what do you think? So I think you kind of answered this already about what helped you get there. And part of it was like your just self-determination of accepting certain things and realizing certain things.

Yeah.

When you've gotten stuck, what's helped you? What's helped you get unstuck?

Finding the things that I actually can control and like, and not in like a I like have to try to like, you know, exude like influence over it. It's just, I, there are certain things that I can do. I can like get up in the morning and like, you know, go through my routine, but it also like, you know, I, you can't go through a routine if you don't have something to do with it. Like, you know, that's, that's where I got stuck too.

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, like, I'm sorry. I, I'm totally not answering your question properly.

No, you're answering totally fine.

You're doing great. I just like, I'm like, I'm trying to figure out how to answer like in the best way to format it.

No, no, there's like, there's no perfect way to answer. So I think you're answering honestly and I think that's perfect. That's what you need to do. How do you keep going at times when you feel uncomfortable?

I'm still working on that one. But I mean, like, it's pretty much like, a similar concept. I just like fake it till I make it. I mean, like, I feel uncomfortable a lot, but I mean, like, and again, like, I have this like insanely high bar for like uncomfortable. So like, honestly, I don't really get uncomfortable with much anymore. But I mean, like, that's different for everybody. But when I do, and it does happen, I'm not like superhuman, but like, I just like, I don't know, I am I try to break it up. Like, you know, like if I'm like, I just try to like take each thing in bite-sized chunks because I mean, you can look at this massive issue and you're just like, oh my God. Or you can like start with like the beginning, the, like, you know, middle, end, you know, like chunk it up and deal with each part head on.

So yeah. Yeah, that's really good. Do you have things that you recognize as triggers for a decline in like your mental health?

Triggers? Probably. Hmm. There's, there's a few. It's like, I don't know, like it's when I start to realize that something is like slipping out of like, you know, like a, a norm that I like, that I have. I like, I can't like, you know, I don't like much like variation unless I decide on it.

Right.

So when that stuff kind of happens, it does kind of like, you know, upset, um, a lot. Yeah, I don't, I don't like very drastic change, and I know that that's like a— that's life, but I just like— that is a very big one.

But there's something to be said for the stability that comes with routine, you know?

And that— yeah, I, I can't— I, I hate, I hate like getting pushed out of my own routine. I can, I can plan to do stuff in it, right?

If you— if it's your choice, that's one thing.

Yeah.

But if it's something that's like you said, slipped.

Yeah.

You know, up into change or change that's imposed upon you.

Yes.

It's very different feel.

Yes.

Um, what stressor are you grateful to have put behind you in the past few years?

My, like, my parents squabble between each other. Okay. Because, like, I always just felt like I needed, like, to fix something or do something about it. And, like, that was miserable. So putting that behind me and, like, getting other people's garbage out of my way, that's just taking yourself out of the middle. Yeah.

Of it. And then like, all right, that's y'all.

Absolutely. Like, I can't.

Yes, I totally understand that.

Mm-hmm.

What hard lesson were you grateful to learn? Hmm.

There's a lot.

It's not that you're having a hard time coming up, it's pinning down, pinning down just one or two.

Absolutely. Um, the hard lesson that I had to learn was probably Man, that I can't— I can't make other people understand, like, anything. I can't just, like, force them to. I can, like, work at it, but, like, man, I can't get anybody— like, you know, I could walk into, like, a therapist's office and be like, you know, like, All right, I hear my thoughts, but they're not other people's thoughts. And like, you know, like have to— you can't just like, you can't explain something properly for people to really understand your point of view.

Yeah.

And that like was like the major block that I had in like a lot of traditional like psychiatrist and psychologist meetings where like I couldn't anybody to understand what I was saying. Like, I'm like, it just doesn't feel like how you're describing schizophrenia should be.

Yeah.

And that was like, that was something that, you know, but yeah, just like, but that general lesson was you can't make other people understand what you were thinking. You can explain it the best, but you can't make them understand it.

Sure. And that goes for so many things, you know.

Everything. And I just kind of apply that logic to literally everything. And it takes a lot of the sting out of like, like the wrongdoings that are done to you because it doesn't, it doesn't feel as intentional.

You know, I was going to ask you if you have a daily schedule, but you were just talking about like you have a routine and you like your routine. You don't like your routine to change.

Yes. And I have, you know, I'm not like a robot. I have like variation.

Sure.

Variation, but I mean, like, yeah, I have a pretty structured day. I wake up at 5 o'clock in the morning and I, you know, I shower, you know, do all my, you know, wake up. So brush my teeth, you know, put on deodorant. Yeah, I, that one, that one, I realized that I might need two sets of deodorant because I work in a really physical job. So I started out with one set and I was like, you I was like, you know what, no, we're gonna change it. We're gonna alter this routine a bit. So now, to, uh, you know, stick and spray, um, you know, I, uh, I feed the cats in the morning. I, uh, I go, um, I go and get a coffee at the gas station. I know that's not the best financial decision, like getting a coffee at the gas station, at the gas station, not at— but I, I consider that the cost of the routine because I get— I have very like, you know, it's, it's a very structured morning and I get the feeling that's not a $7 coffee. It is not. It's, it's about, it's about $2.

So a nice little treat for yourself and you're working.

Yes. And that, that's my main thing. I, I hated not working. I hated it. It was miserable. Like, and that was like the main thing. Like I was like, I was like, I think I would do so much better if I was able to work. And the thing is that I was told that I wasn't capable of doing it by a lot of people in my family. Certain professionals were like, you can't do it. And I felt like I could, I wanted to, but people told me I couldn't. And that was very, very disheartening. And when I finally, after that, time at the mental hospital, I was like, all right, either this is going to be my entire life and I'm going to just go from mental hospital to mental hospital to mental hospital and, you know, break down each time and only come back a little bit, like, even worse than when I went in, right? Just with like a really like thick layer of like Haldol over it. And that was like— so I was like, no, like, I can't. Do that anymore. So I had to, you know, I forced myself to get a job. I got a pretty nice job. It's fun, very stimulating. And now things are just like kind of flowing. You have something to live for. It's easier to live. Like, so, you know, and even as something as simple as a job, if you can't find like, you know, like super crazy amounts of structure and people like, you know, rigid routine, you know, do this, this, this, this, this all day. If you don't have anything to do really, then it's not worth it. So people, I like, get a job, get a job, even a small one, like, you know, like tiny little part-time job, but something to keep you working for something.

Yeah.

And it gives you something tangible to hold on to, which is what I needed very, very badly.

Well, that's good. I'm so glad you found that. Do you set goals? Mm-hmm. What kind of goals? How do you set them? How do you achieve them?

I have been setting like a lot of financial goals lately. Just because, I mean, like my first of my goals were, you know, get a job, you know, like, you know, move out of my, of both my parents. I haven't done that yet, but I'm working on that one. You know, I have a few like, you know, long-term goals, but you know, just like kind of like, you know, get certain things rolling. Um, get in, but my financial goals have been what I've been working on right now, which is just save X amount of money. And it's very tangible. You can look at that. Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, the nature of money, you can watch it grow. So, so I've been, I've been just putting so much like time into keeping that stable because like that was like a main, main, main stressor throughout my whole life and especially throughout the time of psychosis. It was so expensive to be sick. Yeah, I mean, like, it's insane how, how expensive it is. Like, you know, I'm still paying for it, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a lot to deal with. So putting that aside, I get to see it tangibly and I get to like, you know, feel like the, like relief of like not having to worry about it.

Nice.

So that is, that's a goal that I've been, that I've been working on.

That's really good.

Very, very much. That's awesome. Because I strive for financial independence.

Well, you may have mentioned it already then, so you may have answered this question, but talk about a value that's important to you.

Value? Uh, oh, the Golden Rule. For sure. That's a value that like I hold like true to me. It's like I— everybody should be treated fair and everybody should not have to worry about telling somebody that they're having a problem because that was like, I was very lucky in that sense that my mom, I always knew that I could go to her and I value that, but I can't even imagine what it would've been like had I not had her. And I know so many people don't and they don't know, they don't have anybody to confide in. Like, I value— like, that's a value that I want people to be able to confide in me. I want people to feel like they can confide in others, lean on people when they need to.

Yeah.

Because otherwise, I mean, like, you just bottle that up until you can't anymore, and by then it's really, really hard to work with.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It gets to a really horrible point, you know? Yeah. Is there someone who really listens to you when you talk, and how does that affect you?

Uh, well, I mean, in terms of other than my therapist—

it can be just your therapist.

Well, I mean, like, you know, my mom listens and my dad listens, but they all have like their own—

not everybody feels like their therapist listens.

Oh, that's the thing. I, I also got very lucky with that. I have a very nice listening therapist, and he's always like just, I mean, he's been my advocate. Like, he's been there for me to help me. So that is, that's somebody I can confide in just about on everything, on literally everything. I've never felt like the, the, the fear of like being judged or like that it wouldn't be like, you know, private or anything. Like, you know, I always just felt that. But yeah, no, I mean, I also like can confide in my mom and then my dad and You know, but that, but it's not the same.

Yeah, it's not the same.

It's not the same.

Yeah, exactly. Um, tell, tell me about something you do really well.

Uh, I can solve really complex problems if I'm given the time. I, I'm really, I'm really good at it. And like, I, And I, um, I actually like, I enjoy it.

Mm-hmm.

So that's, that's something I'm pretty good at. Um, yeah, just, and literally it could be, it could be like any kind of like area, you know, you might have to gimme a book or something, but like I, I could, I could, I could watch a few YouTube videos, figure it out. But, um, but yeah, I mean like they sent me up on the roof at work the other day and they're like, hey, the AC's out, can you fix it?

I'm like, is this in my job description?

And they're like, I'm like, I don't know how to do that. You know I'm not like an HVAC specialist, right? They're like, just figure it out. And I was like, okay, so I'm up on the roof in the sweltering heat, like holding my phone out, like, okay, so I need to check the fuse box here. I figured it out. I was up there for a while, but yeah, so I can figure it out. Just give me a little bit of time.

That's definitely worth a bonus.

I agree, and I didn't get one.

What's an aspect of your personality that you're grateful for?

Uh, my sense of humor.

I don't know what you're talking about.

I, I absolutely value that, and everybody around me seems to value my sense of humor, and I, I very much enjoy it. That is like my favorite quality. I've always said that. Like, that is what I love about myself, is that I can, even if it's like, you know, a pretty, you know, stressful— I can be in the midst of like a terrible situation and like, you know, be like, "Hehe, you said butt." You can always default to like 10-year-old jokes. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's either, it's either like an extremely complex joke that I cannot figure out. Like nobody can figure out. What I meant by it, or it's like, you know, like, you farted.

You said number two.

Yeah, yeah. Like, literally anything. Like, just like, it's a range, but no matter what, it fits the situation too well.

Yeah, exactly. What are your career goals? I mean, I know you're working now and you're working in a job you really like.

Yeah, so my long-term career goals are to do something similar to this, but in like more of the software space, not as much of the physical area, but like control systems and stuff like that are actually like very like, they kind of itch my brain a little bit. Like I like them.

Which I know is something that you really enjoy when it's like, yeah, just like, tickle my brain just a bit to make you really think.

Yeah, because, and I mean like there's like nothing you can't account for. So like you have to do it all. And so it's just, it keeps you occupied, it keeps you on your toes. And it doesn't feel much like work to me. So I enjoy that. An alternative would, would probably be— I just started looking into it, but it was, it was, what was it? Communication theory, like actual communication theory. I love like like talking about talking. Yeah, and then that is like, some people would be like bored to death, like, and I'm just like, oh wow, that's really interesting. So tell me, what did you mean by the in that sentence? Were you talking about the conceptually or as physically? So it's like, yes, it's actually, it's very is a— that's also fun, but I'm just kind of looking at that. But the more reliably stable one seems to be the automation control systems for our ever-advancing world.

Ever-advancing, for sure. That's true. Who do you admire and why?

I admire my brother because he is actually like removed himself from so much of like the, the problems that like have been faced by like our family, like these like recurring issues. And I feel like, you know, I've like, I don't know, just like sought what he was after, which was just like independence. And I admire that. I mean, like, he's like, you know, like just able to do it and like, and not get dragged down by all of it. So a lot of like the things that I value, I think that he like probably influenced quite a bit.

You feel like he's broken some chains and some family legacy?

Yes. Yeah, because I mean, like, he was, he was born and alive around like the time that my parents were at their very worst, and he came out of it like at like with an escape velocity. Like he just couldn't like stay in that. Like he had to remove himself. And like, I totally understand that. And you know, like, probably like because of how well he's doing in his other parts of life, we probably don't have as actually close of a relationship as I'd want. But that's only because, I mean, like, that's what he had to do for himself, and I get it. And I feel like now that I'm an adult, I'm trying to reconnect with, with people, like, whether they want to or not. I, like, I call my, I call my aunt every, every, like, 2 weeks. Like, you know, who calls their aunt? I call my aunt and I'm just like, hey, how you doing? Like, you know, we're gonna talk now. She's like, okay. Like, you know, like, I'm like, like, I'm like, you know, like, we have a lot of talking to catch up on. It's been a long time since I've talked You, you know, and so I, I do that with literally everybody now. Like, and that is also like something that I've done myself that my brother hasn't done, but I admire him for all of the stability that he has in his life. But I'm also trying to push past that for my own person. Like, you know, like I'm—

you're— you want the connection.

Oh yeah. Like I do. Like, and I like, I like, I yearn for it. I need to talk to people. Like I love talking to people.

You like talking?

I love talking. I love it. Like, you were like, let's make a video about like, and you just get to talk. I was like, cool, like, you know, when do you want me to come?

What's something you look forward to in the future?

Uh, I look forward to having a very put-together, like, group of people. Like, I look forward to having a very, like, tight-knit community for, like, myself and the people around me. Like, and I can almost like see it coming together perfectly.

It's nice though when you can kind of like see it building and like see it coming together.

Yeah, it's—

and you're like, I'm doing this, this is because of me.

Yeah, yeah, like, and like, you know, like, and it's, it's kind of like these like interconnected webs of like, you know, that are centered around different like points, but like they're all kind of meshing together. And like now I have like my own little center that's kind kind of getting stronger and stronger on the outside edges. So that's, that's enjoyable.

That's really good. Well, I mean, I know a couple of things, but— oh, can you come this way?

I am so sorry.

That's okay.

I have been, I have been totally off the screen. For how long?

For an invisible person, like—

oh my God, I am so sorry. I'm so sorry.

That's okay. Um, What's one thing that made you laugh or smile today? And I can think of a few because we've been laughing a lot.

Yeah, I mean, like, uh, oh, actually it was, it was something that I was laughing and smiling and also like upset all at the same time. I got this tool at work and I was like, ooh, it's got a laser on it, it's got, it's got all this stuff, it cost me so much money, like, I was like, it's gonna be awesome. And then I got it and it sucked, it didn't even work. I was like, man. So I was like, I'm like sitting there and I'm like, I shouldn't have talked so much shit about your guys' tools before I got this one because it's really bad. Like, they were like, they were like, yeah, like, you know, kind of deserves you, right? I'm like, yeah, I was very upset. Yeah. Like, I was very upset. And also like, it was like, it was funny too because I just returned it. But like, you know, man, I'm just like, I can't believe I did that.

You're so mad. It's funny.

Yes.

Yes. Yes. Oh, God. What's one thing you wish everybody knew about mental illness?

Ooh, that it doesn't stay the same. It changes. Like, it totally is like a fluid thing. What you started with can be completely different than what you have like a day to like, you know, years later. It can change. It's very fluid and you can go right back to that too. But like, you can also go way farther in the other direction. But I mean, like, it doesn't stay the same. It's not a stagnant thing. It's very fluid.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. All right. Before we close, is there anything else that you would like to add? And it can be anything you want.

Mm. I— all that I want to add is that, like, if people, like, you know, like, I was kind of like, you know, like, I don't think it's going to change the whole world, so I don't think you have to worry. But I feel like if people, like, just cared about each other and, like, you know, actually, like, wanted to help each other, then therapy wouldn't be necessary. Because if—

no, don't put me out of a job.

If the whole world just— it's a very hippie mindset, but it's true. If the whole world cared about each other and everybody, you know, you know, it was unbiased and caring, it wasn't so hard to talk to each other. Yes. And, and yeah, and truly care about each other, then there wouldn't be need for therapy because people would just be dealing with their problems as they happen instead of building them up.

I wouldn't mind being worked out of a job.

If a therapist gets worked out of a job like that and I'm all for it. Yeah, then that might— I think that would be acceptable. I think you can say you won after that. You did it.

I'd be like, yeah, cha-ching.

I did it. I beat therapy. Now what?

Now I retire. Now I go live in the Bahamas or something. I don't know. Okay. Well, thank you for coming in. I appreciate it so much. Absolutely.

I'm sorry that I was out of frame. I'm still kind of working my way out of it. I just, I kind of, I kind of, I rock while I sit. That's, that's something I've always done. But yeah, I just kind of, well, I appreciate, he's like, there you go. Goodbye.

It's been great talking to you, Deb. Slide out of frame. Um, but I do want to say thank you very much, and it's been amazing seeing you. I've missed you.

It's been great to see you. I, I am, I am so happy that you called. I, I wanted to— I've been wanting to see you.

Well, good. Me too. Same here. Same here. So, all right, I'm gonna call it. Deuces.