S1E4 Corey-osity Unleashed with Ruth Wooderson

Welcome to Curiosity Unleashed, where we turn bold ideas into action and help businesses and leaders step it up.

We're your hosts, Debra and Ken, obsessed with fresh takes, bold moves, and shaking up the way we lead and work.

Alongside our amazing guests, we'll dive into the good, the bad, and and the actual what the hell of the workplace, served with a side of sarcasm and a splash of wisdom.

Oh, and fair warning, this is an adult podcast. Expect swearing, like Ken just did, brutal honesty, and the occasional dramatic reenactment of some of the most epic workplace fails we've ever seen.

Or done. So grab your drink, get comfy, and let's unleash some curiosity. Hello everybody, uh, we are really excited. We've got Ruth Wooderson visiting us today, and we've got some interesting facts about Ruth. Ruth worked originally as a part-timer, I believe, for Abbey Bank, and then when Abbey was bought by Santander, she sort of stayed, but she got really good at it, and she stayed at— she is still at Santander. She has been at Santander for 28 years, I believe. Or coming up on 28 years. But you, you had a little bit of a secret passion before working in banking. I think you worked as a primary school teacher. Is that right, Ruth?

Yep. Yep. That's what my career choice was after leaving school and A-levels. So yeah.

So, so are there any parallels between taking care of infants in school and taking care of employees in banking?

Plenty. Plenty.

Now, just for the record, I used to work for Ruth, so I include myself in that as one of the infants that she's trying to, you know, teach.

There you go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now, I see here that you are passionate about people and leading with authenticity, and you're hoping to break barriers for for Women in Leadership and Technology. Now, I've seen your posts on LinkedIn. I've seen a lot of the talks that you've given there. And I'm really hoping that we can dig into that as we go on with our call today. Now, your journey is pretty astounding, really, from a part-timer to being a CIO, Chief Information Officer at Santander. I mean, that's remarkable. What were the pivotal moments that sort of shaped your leadership path?

I think just trusting the process and it was okay not to know. I think sometimes we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to have that specific journey that we want to go on, and I didn't have that vocational pull as much as I thought I wanted to be a primary school teacher. I took a part-time job whilst I was working out whether that was or wasn't the right thing. And then I think I've just allowed myself to naturally have that squiggly career, trying new things, opening doors, sometimes shutting the door because it wasn't right for me, and not necessarily having that kind of 5, 10-year plan. And because of that, I think it's allowed me to be more open to opportunities and also the challenges, whereas I think sometimes, and certainly the society at the moment, I think we're quite prescriptive that you need to know at 18 what you want to be. I still probably couldn't tell you what I want to be at 47. Um, you know, I think I know what I don't want to be. Um, but so I think it, it's— it helped me, uh, to be more fluid with the choices that I made. And certainly the early part of my career, it was all around learning my craft, learning about what made me tick, where my passions lied, where I needed to develop, so that then when the opportunities came for what I kind of feel was that moment where actually everything knitted together and I got the job that I suppose I hadn't dreamed of, but I was ready for. I was ready to take on that challenge and I did that with bravery and belief that actually I could do it and I could do it well.

So at the beginning, Ruth, you talked about that you want to break down barriers for women in leadership. And I know as a woman in leadership, I know that I'm right there with you. So I'm going to throw a little bit of a surprise question to you here, which is just what have you seen as some of the changes as a woman leader? So I know for me, you know, in the over 20 years that I've been working, I've seen how women are treated and how we lead change. So just, you know, what are the things that you're fighting for? What are the things that you are passionate about and talk about as a woman leader?

I mean, I think the dial has moved, and so I think we have to celebrate that the dial has moved. But do I think it's moving far enough and fast enough? No, certainly within the technology space, and actually I think certainly within senior leadership, there's still a huge amount to do to make women be visible and to see them for who they are. I still feel that we have to play a facade to be able to be accepted. You're kind of either the fierce and firm woman, you know, the one that is emotional and you wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of her, or you play on to the kind of the gender of the giggly female. And I find that really difficult that there's almost like only two facades that can be played. And I really want to actually remove that mask and see women for what they are and who they are. And that isn't just about mothers or about women entering into the older chapter of their career, but actually the youth of today. I've got a 21-year-old, and actually I want her to know that the ceilings are there to be broken, but actually that she can do it. It sometimes feels like We talk about it, but we don't demonstrate it. We run all the diversity schemes, we run everything that kind of says that we want to have diverse workforce, we want allyship, but then the moment where it really matters, it kind of folds like a cheap suit. And I just think it's around the narrative and the execution, and that's what I hope that I can start to be a bit of a trailblazer in, that actually you can do both. And that also we can be authentic in owning all the bits that come with being a female and that we can celebrate those differences. But the key thing that I don't want to see happen is that it becomes anti-men, because I have a huge amount of men in my life personally and professionally. I've got two sons, a wonderful husband. I've got a huge amount of support from the team that I lead. So I don't want it to become an us and them. I want it to be cohesive and glued together and just mutually respecting that we are different. But those differences are there to be celebrated. And if we use them to the strengths rather than to see them as weaknesses, it's going to have more power. So I do think things are moving, and I think you probably have to force it a little bit by creating, you know, women in STEM, women in tech, women in business. You have to create some of those programs of work to get the ball rolling. But let's not move so far that it becomes a divider.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I love what you say about breaking the glass ceiling, but doing it in an authentic and genuine way because I agree, I've sat on leadership tables before and I sort of feel like I have to be pigeonholed into acting a certain way. So just curious, how have you done that? Because you've sat on leadership, you know, in leadership tables, leadership roles yourself. How have you been able to be authentic that you can use to inspire others not to wear those two facades that you spoke about earlier?

Yeah, it's a great question and one that I think I probably get asked a lot, but I'm not sure I've got a really specific answer because I don't really know how I do it. I probably am not clever enough to have facades. Like, I don't have a game face. I'm not very good at poker. I'm probably pretty rubbish to, you know, that competitive edge. I think I wear my heart on my sleeve, and for me, it's my values that drive me to be the version of me I'm very aware when I walk into certain meetings or in certain environments that I am the only person, you know, the only female. And but I also feel that I express myself through how I dress, the clothes that I wear. They're part of an expression of who I am. And I think sometimes to your point of having those nerves, yes, I have those nerves. Yes, I have those butterflies, but it's my choice to use them and channel them in the right way. And if I don't, no one's going to say, come on, come to this meeting, show us what you can do. I'm just going to be pushed to the side. So actually, it's for me to force that curve a little bit more. It isn't easy and it does come with a little bit of bravery and probably a little bit of screw you. You know, I'm now 47. I am probably less tolerant than I was in my 20s. I probably am much more comfortable in who I am, the way I look, the way I dress, the way I hold myself. I won't be everyone's cup of tea, and I'm okay with that because equally other people aren't my cup of tea. Um, but I think it's just about being really comfortable and anchored to what your moral compass is and what your moral core is. Um, and that is probably what I've learned in the last 10 years as I've come out of that early chaotic stage of motherhood where they were toddlers and I didn't know my ass from my elbow, to actually getting to a point now where there is a bit more structure and I do have a little bit more space to reflect and digest who I am. And actually, I have a real powerful position to actually role model for my sons as much as I do for my daughter. And I take that, you know, with a lot of responsibility, but also as a privilege. So yeah, I don't think I have an answer of how I do it. I think I've just become more comfortable in my own skin and knowing that this is me And doesn't mean I won't develop and it doesn't mean I won't learn. But fundamentally, that moral compass and that anchor point that I've got in who I want to be is non-negotiable inside and outside of work.

Brilliant. Thank you for that.

Absolutely love that. And I used to work for Ruth about, gosh, 4 years ago, 5 years ago now, something along those lines. In my previous roles in IT, it was very male-dominated. It was very male-focused. And definitely, any woman who came anywhere close to that environment definitely had to fit into those two stereotypes of overly stern and harsh or giggly. And it was upsetting. My experience at Santander, in general of Santander, was that Santander wasn't like that. The people who were brought up through the ranks and promoted were promoted based on abilities, not on gender. We had leaders who were male, we had leaders who were female, but they were leaders. That was the important part, not which bathroom they used, right? And I was always really impressed with that at Santander. When you took over our department, I felt that even to be a little bit more complete, to be a little bit more thorough through the department, if you see what I mean. We had a purpose, we were trying to get a job done. And it— I absolutely felt that. So I could— I saw that firsthand is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, that's great.

So when you stepped into your first major leadership role, what surprised you the most?

How lonely it is. I think you kind of assume that leadership is, I don't know, camaraderie, and but actually it's really lonely, um, because nobody— you've kind of got to have eyes up and eyes down. Um, the protection that you feel for your team, that they don't necessarily need to hear all of that white noise, to then knowing that actually often people on the top table will have agendas that are more personal, more insular. It's more about where they want to go. It probably comes back to career progression point. So it is quite a lonely place, and so I wouldn't say that it naturally fits in with how I like to be, because I think I like to nurture and know that you've got that push and pull. So I think I often use the tent analogy of who would be in your tent with you and those who would be on your campfire. And I think as, as I've grown into my career, definitely my tent's probably become more of a two-man tent than a big family yurt. But, um, but that's, but that's okay. And I think it's also sometimes with not trying to challenge the status quo. I think it's good to challenge the status quo in certain circumstances, but actually it's okay in this scenario. I, I know that it's lonely, but that's okay because there are other blessings that come with it in a different way. So it's accepting the good and the bad for what they need to be. Um, I think, as I say, my natural stance would always be to have a campsite of people that were, you know, supporters and sponsors. But it's also okay to acknowledge that that can't always be the case. And I've realized that you can be a lot more resilient than you realize. And whilst, you know, I think COVID for me was really pivotal because I think it did move the dial on, on lots of things that were needed within the workspace. It of course has created lots of fallouts from it, but what it did make me realize was that I was more resilient than I realized and that I can adapt to change. In a much easier way than I thought. You know, if 5 years ago someone had told us what was coming, I can imagine the, you know, the fear and the anxiety that would have been driven from everybody. But actually, once you put your foot on that elevator, it's moving and it's moving with you sometimes whether you like it or not. So yeah, I think the loneliness has probably been my biggest learning curve, but I've used it to the advantage rather than as a disadvantage.

So based on that then, as a leader, we all experience that loneliness as a leader. How do you deal with that? What's your secret to coping?

So I'm really, really privileged to have the most amazing team. And I've got a great leadership team and I've got some great people there who become that counsel. And so I think it's around finding those people, finding your tribe., and those people are sometimes outside of work as well, finding, you know, that kind of support network in different places. And actually, I think that diversity of thought is really, really key, because actually, if you just look upwards for all of those kind of guidance or that kind of navigation points, you're losing the ability to think about things in a different way. So I've just made sure that I've kept connected to my team at all points. I think feet on the ground and remembering, if you think of, like, career progression as that ladder, remembering the steps that you've come up, not just the steps that you've got to go. And so my team are always my anchor point. They tell me the good, the bad, the ugly, and I really need that. And they are also my safe space to be able to say, you know, sometimes I'm not okay, I've got worries, actually, I'm having a bit of a bad week. And so I think that honest and transparent leadership is something that's missing. A lot of the time people think that we need to become superheroes, and obviously, you know, I am one of those, but it's also okay for me to show that part of me that we all experience— the worries, the bad day, the just having one of those weeks— because actually your team need to see that authentic, real human self, because that's how they will have weeks. And so I think once you get that safe space and those conditions are nurtured, then you can have those easy conversations and know that there's no agenda to it. You know, you can tell someone that you're having a bad week and they're not going to use it against you. They're actually going to go, okay, really sorry to hear that. What can I do to support? So I have to be really honest, my team are my saving grace, and I'm really, really lucky over the years to have retained, you know, for the last 10 years, I've had some people come with me on that journey. And that's a real, hopefully, testament to the relationships that I build with people around me.

It is said that people leave their boss, not the company. So, the fact that you have retained those means you're doing something right. Absolutely. Thank you for that.

So, can I dig a bit into this authenticity? Because the way you say it, it seems so nonchalant. So, my team come to me when they have questions and problems. And so many bosses would kill for that. Absolutely kill for that. So I'm just curious, what is your secret sauce? How have you created that culture, that environment as a leader through authenticity and other things to get that, you know, to have your people, you know, have that relationship with you?

Yeah. So I think number one, it has to be trust. And I think it has to be creating those safe conditions where people feel that you trust them and they trust you. Now, that mustn't be misinterpreted that it means you're a soft touch and that, you know, that you're not going to have high standards or you're not going to have boundaries. You know, I say what I mean and I mean what I say. So I think it's really important that people know that kids need boundaries and that's where the synergies come in. So do, you know, people that work for you. I think it's also okay that they do know bits about you. So know about the fact that I'm a mum of 3, what makes me tick in terms of my personal life. That actually you share those weekend stories. We lost a little bit of that, obviously, during the COVID times, those watercooler moments, but it doesn't mean that you can't still have them. You know, Ken and I haven't worked together for a long time, and yet the power of LinkedIn, the odd message to check how people are going, you know, so you can still have those moments. I think it's also really, really key that when you say to somebody either that you can help them, that you can support them, or that they ask something of you, that you don't promise something that you can't deliver on. So, never be that leader that says, "I'll give you a 10%, you know, 10% pay increase," or, "I'm going to make you the next grade." Don't do something that actually is satisfying what they want to hear in that moment. Actually, be honest and be truthful. And I think really clear, honest communication is key. So, Santander has gone through huge amounts of changes over the last few years, And you have to take your teams on that journey. You can't just kind of tell them that this is happening and not expect them not to have a reaction to that change. So talk to them about it, get their feedback. You'll have people who will support you no matter what, then you'll have people who will take a little bit of time, and then you'll have your detractors. And I think you have to have different techniques to work with all different types of people. But trust for me is really important, and knowing that if someone came to me with something that was super sensitive, or actually they were just having a wobble, knowing that they are trusting me with that information is really powerful. So then I have to use that in the right way. And yeah, I probably do sound like it comes really easy. It doesn't. It takes rigorous work. But the benefits that you get from that rigorous work outweigh the effort that you have to put in. And I think it's— there's a phrase that I use, which is sow seeds, grow trees. And that is what I try and do all the time with my team as I get new people joining or we bring in a new supplier. You just sow those seeds and you nurture and you cultivate them in the right way. And all of a sudden, those trees flourish. And when they flourish, there's actually little pruning that you need to do to it. But a lot of leaders probably don't want to spend that time and just want fast fixes, fast fixes.

But I love what you said because that's a lot of what we talk about when we do our workshops and development courses. It's all about investing the time upfront to reap the benefits. And Ken really wants to design t-shirts. So I think some of what you said might be turned into a t-shirt, but we will put your name at the bottom.

Brilliant. Merch. I've always wanted my face on something.

Yeah. Are you the one who started him to be obsessed with merch? He loves merch.

Well, I want merch. We just haven't had a chance to do it.

We will someday.

Yes. Coffee cups. Coffee cup merch is always good. I like a coffee cup.

I don't have a coffee cup handy. We definitely have coffee cups already. Anyway, I have to change my question just a little bit because you've already answered the one that I had written there. So no, no, no, that's brilliant. That's brilliant. So the question that I want to ask now is Before COVID we were comfortable with the level of control that we had to exert and the amount of trust that we could give our people, the amount of autonomy we could let them have, amount of agency to get their job done. When COVID hit, obviously, people had to be trusted away from the office, at least in white-collar jobs. A lot of people were working from home, sight unseen. We just had to trust them. In the years since, after COVID stopped being an issue and lockdowns were cleared, a lot of companies did return to office. And it seems to me that a lot of companies tried to go too far the other direction and exert a lot of control again because they could. So, in that example, What's the right move, the right mix going forward? How do we get back to a point where we can trust our people and let them get on with it and relax the controls just a little bit? How do we get back to that point?

Yeah, return to the office is a really hot topic because finding that right balance between giving people the flexibility that I think everybody really enjoyed— you know, today I'm at home, I can make that choice that that works for me. This session is better for me to do at home than in the office., but knowing then of what days I want to be in the office this week. And I think that that's the pivotal part, is it has to be owned by the individual. I think you can have a policy, you can have a framework. It's the mindset of what do we go to the office for? What do we want that human connection to be for? I don't want people coming into the office just because they put their, you know, their pass through the code scanner. To say that they've entered the building. That's not what return to the office should be about. It should be about healthy connections where you are going to have better conversations face-to-face than you are going to have if it's over a Teams call or, you know, using emails. I think the problem is we're very indecisive in the UK and we never quite know whether to say something is A or B, and because of that we leave a little bit of ambiguity, and that ambiguity people really struggle with. So I think too far one way of, you know, would anyone want to go back 5 days a week? I don't think there's many people that would say yes, but I think if there is somebody who says for me and my well-being and the way I like to work, that's what I want to do. You know, I have people that will wear a shirt and tie or certainly much smarter office wear when they're working from home because that's how their mind likes to get them set up for work. So I think it's about understanding the human psychology around what office working brings, and then creating a framework around that that allows people to be trusted to make the right decisions. But let's all be honest, there are going to be people who are going to take advantage of that and are not going to do the right things. And that's where you then focus your attention on those detractors that actually are probably not right for the, you know, the workforce anyway, probably don't come with the right mindset. But we just need to be careful that we don't blanket everything, and we become absolutely into micromanaging whether someone's done the right amount of days in the right month against the right day of the week, versus actually they came into the office and we had this amazing retro, and we run a brilliant planning session, and we're all very, very clear now on what we're doing for the next quarter. I want more of that than I care of whether someone's done 32 out of 34 days. That's not what I think we're looking for. But again, I think it comes to leading from the front. So if I'm not in the building and I'm not showing what good office work can look like when you're there, then how do I expect my team to follow? So we started, certainly within my team, we started our journey way ahead of like the formal policy coming out from a Santander perspective, because we saw the benefits of just actually getting together and having, and we as a collective agreed what anchor days— some people like anchor days that they can go home and tell the dog sitter and the, you know, the husband or the wife, actually, you're doing the childcare on these days and I'm doing it on these days. And that worked for us. But now we have a bit more flexibility. People are finding what works for them long, short, and medium term. And I think that that's what we need to get to. But it's about creating those conditions where people feel trusted, but you can equally trust them., and then deal with the detractors in the way that we need to, which is probably they're not the right fit for the organization if actually they're trying to abuse the system or they're trying to cut because they're actually letting themselves down and the rest of the team. But yeah, a very hot topic. And I know that I see lots of your comments on it, Ken, on LinkedIn. So I know that there's a lot of powerful thoughts that go behind it. And, you know, and I see it from both sides, but I think I get why businesses want people in their buildings, but it's around what do you want them in the building for? Not to control them, but to actually have brilliant, healthy human connections, which we all need, all of us.

I absolutely love that. I mean, we are tribal. We need that face time. We need that connection time. But to be dogmatic about it and say, nope, from now on it's 3 days, 4 days a week, it's I just don't think there's an awful lot of point to it. Organizations can waste so much time having to police that when that's not the job. That's not the reason that that organization exists.

Well, it becomes a full-time job. It becomes a full-time job to police something that actually has no relevance to the role that you really play. I mean, do you want me to work my magic in technology teams and growing talent to protect the bank from fraud, or do you want me to sit there and review a data matrix that tells me that so-and-so hasn't done his days this month. You know, it's about what do you want my time being well spent with? So I get having to have a framework. I think as humans, we all need a boundary. But, you know, we created a quiet hour during the COVID period, but quiet hour for me is of no benefit. It's 12 to 1, 1 to 2. I need to be able to do the school run at 4 to 5, so I don't want a 12 to 1. I just need to know that, but for some people, they really need that break in the day, they want that lunch break, they like to go out and get fresh air. So, I think it's around creating choices and trusting people to make the right choice. If you've got a quiet day, feel free to take an hour and 10 minutes, but if you've really got something that you need to get out the door, and, you know, back in the days of our mobile development, we've got a release that's going, it's roll your sleeves up and everyone does what they need to do to get it over the line. Those push and pull moments are a collective. So yeah, it's a very interesting one and I'm sure you'll get lots of flavors of different opinions on it for sure.

Thank you, Ruth. I love what you mentioned about the detractors. One of the books that I wrote on employee engagement talks about that you should not design programs, processes and such for the 10% who are going to abuse it. Because to be honest, I think you said it before, they'll find their own way to abuse things anyway. And in our book about leadership, we talk about the idea that most people don't intentionally do things wrong to be a bad boss. We just stumble and fall. So, I'm glad you made that point because that's one of my passions. So, my next question is about learnings. You've shared some really good nuggets of things that you've learned along the way. So, what are some of the lessons that you've learned? Speaking of stumbling and fall, things that you stumbled and fall that, you know, you've learned and you haven't done, um, going forward that you can share with people?

So I think probably, you know, 8 to 10 years ago, I was always looking over the garden fence a little bit to see if I could see something that reminded me of me or represented someone like me to work out what I needed to do. Um, and I think I realized probably in the last few years that actually me being me is okay and that's good enough. And that's taken a bit of a personal journey as much as a professional journey, never really quite, you know, working out where did I fit and always feeling like I needed to adapt to fit to what I could see or what I thought the norm was. So I think it was a professional and a personal growth and actually doing a lot of reading and reading some of the books that you've read and other books that have kind of been recommended and actually starting to realize that it's more in my control. And actually I needed to take back that control because I think I'd let it go a little bit. I think I was always waiting for someone to tell me or affirm, yeah, what you did then was okay, or what you say is okay, or actually you are good at what you do. And actually, yes, you need those kind of sense checks, but actually, often it's from what you see around you. If your team are happy and engaged and they are doing great quality work and you're retaining them and you're watching them go through life moments, then you're doing something right. And actually, what is it that you do right? And 9 times out of 10, it's just turning up and being you. The work stuff will come and go. It changes, you know, technology evolves. You know, one minute we're talking about AI, the next minute it will be something else. I mean, no doubt that the trends that come with technology, for example, will forever, you know, ebb and flow. But I think who you are as an individual, that golden thread that sits within you uniquely, is what you have to hold tight to. And so I think I've become more comfortable with saying, this is me.

I love that. And that's sort of a common thread of what you've said. It's a shame that it's taken us so long to get there, though. I wish I could go back to my, you know, 21, 22, 23-year-old self and tell myself that. So I'm just curious, how do you do that with your team so that they don't have to take as long to get to, you know, where you are? You said, you know, 8, 10 years ago you were like this.

Yeah, I suppose I kind of flip about on that topic because often you get kind of asked, what would you tell your younger self? I don't know if I'd tell my younger self anything, because if I hadn't been that younger, vulnerable self, perhaps I wouldn't be where I am today. And in a way, if you think about it as like a car journey and you put your sat nav on and you put the postcode in, the end destination you always get to, even if you end up having a road closure or a diversion, or there is a sheep on the road, or you make a stop. So I kind of feel like the journey is all part of the learning, um, and if we erased all of that out maybe I wouldn't be the person I am today. So maybe actually not telling my younger self to do something differently, but telling my younger self to trust the process and accept the journey that you're going to go on. And with the team, I think it's very interesting, and I'm going to sound really ageist here, but it's very interesting to watch the youngsters come through the pipeline of talent. And they're so prescriptive that they've done their GCSEs, they've done their A-levels, they might be an apprentice, they might have gone to get a degree, and then they sit in front of you and say, okay, when am I going to be the CEO? They're hungry for that kind of, that, you know, and it's like they've worked for you for a year and they want to know when their promotion's coming and when are they going to get a pay increase and when are they going to— it's almost like slow down and live in the moment. And actually, you know, my career trajectory has only really happened in the last 10 years, but I've worked for the bank for 28. So prior to those 10 years, I'm not suggesting that I didn't work hard, but clearly it was all laying those foundations to make me ready for then when that moment came, that opportunity came, I was ready to be able to accept it and, and say, yes, I will do that, and yes, I know I'm going to do it well. So I, I think we need to be really careful about also not living in the here and now and, and embracing the moments, the small things, as well as Yes, I, I understand you have to plan for the biggest stuff. I mean, mine's now pension and when can I retire, um, and, you know, and others are planning their weddings and maybe having babies. So I understand that those life moments are quite pivotal to some of the decisions that we make, but I really wish that people would slow down because you work for a huge amount of time, um, and actually, wouldn't it be amazing to know that our careers were squiggly and fun and happy, but also challenging and sad, and, and that it had all the colors of the rainbow to it. Um, so yeah, I just hope that the next generation learned that it's okay not to know, and it's also okay to just be okay with being in the moment.

I love it. Sorry, I've been writing down all these ideas for t-shirts, so that's why my head keeps looking down.

So yeah. I think we need a calendar. We need like January to December quotes. There you go. There you go. Absolutely.

I've got just a couple more questions on the list here.

What are some of the common blind spots that leaders have today, especially in large organizations? I definitely think that a lot of leaders forget the journey they went on and they forget that human part. Obviously, it's a responsibility being a leader, but it's just a different job to somebody who's a software engineer or an analyst or a project manager. So, I think you have to kind of keep, as I say, a little bit grounded that we've all got stuff going on, we all have, you know, things that we're juggling, it's just they have a different sense of responsibility. I would really love leaders to actually show up a bit more with that authenticity. Teams, people, high-performing culture doesn't come from facades, it doesn't come from prescriptive, it doesn't come from reading a book and knowing the buzzwords verbatim, it comes from people feeling it. People are really quick to sniff out someone who isn't genuine and someone that is, really quick. That's where the kind of child synergy comes from, or even like dogs, you know, pets, etc. They know, they know when someone isn't maybe the right person, they can sniff that out. And so I think it would be great for leaders to show that human side a bit more, for them to say, actually, I'm worried about what's happening at the moment. And we don't do enough of that. We create this kind of force field that if you say that, it's going to be seen as a weakness. But actually, I think it's a strength, a huge strength. And the amount of times where you go on LinkedIn and someone will share a real personal story about something that's happening to them, the wave of support that comes out for, for their story is because people are going, oh my goodness, I can relate to that, or actually that's happened to me. Because that's what we're always looking for, is those threads of, yeah, that's my kind of person, or actually, oh my gosh, I've had that experience, how did you get through it? We're always looking for that support network. And so I think there's a lot more to be done in knowing that leadership doesn't mean that you have to lose who you are and how people see you. As I say, I'm not clever enough to do it. You know, who you see in the street where I live versus the person in the office is going to be the same, just probably a different content in what I'm talking about.

But how I talk and my humor and the way I want to engage remains the same. I absolutely treasure that about you, the ability to be vulnerable, the ability— when I was in your department, I really had embedded the lesson about saying, "I don't know" is a superpower, not a weakness. So, being able to demonstrate that is exciting. And especially in an organization where it is safe to do that, where it is possible to do that without some little turd coming along and trying to get you in the back for having done that. So, yeah, no, thank you for that.

That's exciting. So since I am with two techies, I'm just going to put this out there and say this.

Oh gosh.

Because a lot of times when I do sessions with people, they're like, oh well, you know, tech people, you know, they're just all about the technology. They're not about the people. But I mean, hearing the conversation and hearing the two of you, I just want everyone to know that is not true. I mean, you both are so people-centered when it comes to leadership. So it can be done and it is happening. So thank you for that. But I do have one quick tech question because you can't do this without talking about tech. And it's my last question, which is just about AI. I'm just curious because you are in the tech world. So how are you seeing AI impact leadership, good and bad?

It's for me just becoming the new buzzword. I think AI is a tool to have in your toolkit. But it is not the fix for every problem that we think we have within organizations. And we need to be really careful that we're not like moths to a flame where we think that AI will solve everything. Will it help us automate? Yep. Will it help us perhaps become more self-serve? Absolutely. Will it help our engineers perhaps in terms of their quality and their speed? Yep, absolutely. But it needs to be seen as a tool, and it's how you use that tool will then see the power of what that tool can do. Do I think it removes the human part that is going to be needed, whether you're a bank, whatever industry you're in? No, I don't. People will still need people around them. And so we just need to be really careful that we don't just see it as that kind of golden ticket to being able to reduce your workforce by half, or suddenly you're going to cut everything down by half and the costs are going to go. You see it now, you know, you go into a supermarket, it's self-checkout, you can do it yourself. But how many times does it flag Red, because it needs you to confirm you're over 18 to buy your bottle of wine and your paracetamol. You still need somebody around. And so I think it's about using AI in the right way. I'm excited by it. I'm excited by what I think we can do in spaces that perhaps we haven't been able to explore before. But we need to be careful that we don't use it as a potent cocktail that will knock out that need for that human connection. And that's, I think, where the sweet spot will be. But like anything, you know, we say we're going to be an agile organization and everyone thinks saying it means that you're agile. It's more than that. Using AI isn't going to solve all the problems, but I think it will definitely be a really powerful tool to do so. Absolutely.

Thank you for that. Well, that's the end of our questions and that's the end of our time, unfortunately. That makes me really sad because, as always, Ruth, I enjoy spending time with you. It's just such a pleasure to hear your voice again.

Oh, thank you, Ken. I mean, you haven't changed. The one thing I want to know is what's your magic potion? Because you haven't aged in all the years since you've left.

So you're looking really good. That's not even close to true. It's probably a filter I've got going on my camera or something.

I thought maybe being a grandparent, maybe being a grandparent had given you a zest for life. But no, it was really lovely to meet you as well, Deb. As I say, the books that I use them frequently, I write love letters to my team every week on different themes. And there is always an element of one of your books in there somewhere, whether that's a quote or just a theme that I'm working with, working out where the team need me and I'm going with, okay. And so yeah, my team love my love letters.

Well, they tell me they do. Let's see. So I was going to end by asking you, what's your final tip? But I'm going to just hone on that love letters as the final tip. So tell us, what are the love letters? Why do you do that?

Why should others start doing it as leaders? So I think communication plans often can become quite prescriptive, I think, and kind of a little bit desensitized. So obviously the communications that I have to send are more formal around, you know, dates and deadlines and things. We do that, we use Viva Engage, and we've got different platforms to be able to do it. But I wanted to reach out to my team normally once a week, sometimes it bubbles into every other week, but that is also based on whether I feel like there's something we want to talk about. So I've recently written one on high-performing culture, I did one recently on the balloons of life, so it's always on one theme, and it just gives my personal perspective or little bits of kind guidance to get people to segue into thinking about— we've just done objectives, and I wanted people to think about how they have to own their own objectives. Cascading top-down that I say you need to do 1 to 10 and these are the different ratios doesn't make people own their own career path or their own performance. And so I just actually start to call them a love letter because it does always come from the heart. It isn't necessarily connected to a specific thing, but I, I wrote one just before going off on leave around the balloons of life and knowing that sometimes you have to deflate some balloons to let other ones be filled. And after having a really busy quarter, I needed to switch off from work, and I needed to inflate that family time and to have time where we just reconnected. And to get people to think about what the balloons in their head look like, and were they finding the balance between what was elevated to what wasn't. So yeah, it's— I don't know really where it came from, but I wrote one and it got a load of great feedback, and it's just kind of gone on that journey. But they are very personal, and they're personal in the sense that they are a theme that I think I'd like to talk about. And as I say, I share advice and things that I've read or things that I'm working through so that they can see that I'm developing and progressing myself and investing in myself as much as I'm asking them to. So yeah, the love letters have become a thing. Fantastic.

Thanks for sharing that. I am so thrilled for your current team that they get to work with you, that they get to experience the wisdom and the intelligence and the insight that you've showed us today.

So thank you very much for that, Ruth.

No, thank you. Is there anything you want to tell anybody listening to the podcast about future plans, about any messages? Do you want to talk about the good programs going on at Santander or recruiting or anything along those lines?

Yeah. So, I mean, Santander is going through a huge transformation, which I think a lot of companies are. They're having a look at how they want to be in the future. So, but I always think like anything that comes with opportunities. And so whilst at the moment, if you're working there, it feels a little stormy. I think we now know where the ship is headed and, you know, it's now time to pull together. And actually, I often think that where challenges come, opportunities are quite close behind. And you learn more about yourself in those moments. And so what I'm also trying to get across at the moment to the team, but also to myself, is, you know, you can't have the good without the sometimes not so good. And it isn't bad, it's just not so good. And that actually you learn more about yourself in those moments than you do when everything's all utopia and everyone's kind of singing together. So exciting times, challenging times. But the biggest thing for me is because if anyone from my team listens to it, I couldn't do what I do without them. And I generally feel truly blessed to have nurtured but also inherited and invested in the best team, in my view, that works in technology., and I feel very privileged that they let me captain the ship. So, yeah, I feel like a lucky lady when it comes to the team and what I do.

I feel like we've gone full circle. You said you wanted to be a primary teacher and you're still sharing lessons and caring for people.

So thank you very much for that. No, thank you. Really, really, as I say, thank you for giving me the opportunity. I felt a bit of a fraud when you first asked would I like to do it, and then, and then I thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to get all nervous and, and the brain won't connect. And then actually it worked really well because it didn't give me enough time to truly think about it because I was away last week and I feel like I'm much better when I just sit into the moment and let it be what it will be. So thank you for letting me feel so comfortable.

Really appreciate it. Pleasure was all ours. You all can hopefully catch this on our podcast. Look forward to it.

Thank you very much, Ruth. See you later. Thank you.

Take care. Bye everyone. And that's a wrap on this episode of Curiosity Unleashed. Huge thanks to our amazing guests and of course to you for tuning in.

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