Avoiding the freelancer trap when growing your video business - EP#69 with Keziah Robinson

G', day, guys. And welcome to another episode of the how to Scale Video Business podcast. I'm your host, Dan Lenny, and today I've got a really fascinating guest. Our guest today is Kezia Robinson, who is a business strategist, a coach, and an investor who spent over 20 years working with CEOs, founders and business owners across multiple industries. Now, you might be wondering, what has that got to do with video business? Well, she spends a lot of time now working with small businesses and is absolutely passionate about helping her clients harness capitalism as a force for good. And what's especially interesting is that, Kezia, what we're talking about today's episode is the evolving mindset from, oh, I want to be a million dollar business to one that's more of a business owner, which is, I have certain profit goals and as an employee of my business, I have a certain income expectation. So we're going to talk about the big picture and about that freelancer trap of thinking your revenue is your personal income and really just refocusing your mind on your business. We touched on some really fascinating topics on this episode, and I was really, really excited to get to talk to Kezia. And actually the conversation went so well, we actually split this over two episodes. We're going to be covering this over a couple of episodes. So in today's episode, we're going to really look through the steps that Kezia would take a client through. So I think you'll find this very, very interesting and sorry, it's my dogs in the background there just shaking things off. But I think you'll find this a really interesting process because she's going to talk about how you embrace the freelancer technician dream and define your ideal job. But actually make sure you're balancing that correctly with the, the needs of the business and really focusing on everything you're doing just now. And if it's not part of your ideal job, outsource it, delegate it, or eliminate it. And really encouraging you to step into the role of a business owner to identify gaps and critically assess what parts of your ideal job are not, you know, in service of the business or your clients. And decide whether you want to shift your business strategy to better match your ideal role or maybe take a pay cut and only work part time in the business. So, you know, it's really fascinating. There's some incredible insights in this episode. I think you're really going to enjoy it. So, yeah, dig in, grab a coffee and enjoy.

Hey, guys, just before we get started in this week's episode, I Wanted to make sure you were aware of some new resources we've got for you over@denleny.com that's D E N L E N N.

Including I'm giving away a free copy of my book, A Filmmaker's Guide to Budgets and Quotes that Increase Profit margin on Productions by 20 to 30% instantly. So if you want to grab a copy of that book, it's on the website now. And we're adding new resources to the Resources tab all the time to help you scale your business faster. Thanks so much and enjoy the show.

Kezia, I am so thrilled that we've got an opportunity to do this podcast. We had a call a few weeks ago and I just thought you had so much incredible knowledge and wisdom to share as a coach that I really wanted to bring you on. So thank you so much for making the time to be here today.

Thank you for having me.

Now, we were just about to. Before we started recording, we started having a conversation. Stop, stop, stop. Because you might say something really, really smart here. So we were talking about. And where I want to begin is where we all began, really, when we left our corporate jobs or whatever job we were doing and decided we're going to set up a business. And for the people listening to the show, that would have been largely, you know, a freelance camera person or a freelance editor, a freelance producer. And one of the first things that I experienced when suddenly you went from being paid a salary each month, where the government took the tax and sorted all that stuff out, is that you suddenly got the gross amount of money in your bank account. And so suddenly you felt very, very rich.

Some of the experiences you've had working with clients around that notion of, you know, oh, I'm now a business owner and I've got all this money coming in and I'll go and buy a new tv.

Well, I had once, I did have a client who is very, very talented, but was a jewelry designer. And it was one of those things where she had commingled all of her funds. So this is a big one that happens when you first start. Now you have all this money and it's all going into your personal bank account. You haven't set up necessarily a business. And she was, you know, she was writing checks out of different this, that and the other thing. And you'd start to look at it and she really had. She was sort of spending money and she had this car she had leased, and it was. It cost $1,000 a month. And it was one of those where it's like you're doing pretty well, but you're not doing $1,000 a month lease on your car lease. Well, and that's the kind of thing that you start to see is people are, they get really acclimated to it. And then the, you know, for her she had sales tax and then all of a sudden you get a, you're getting let. You haven't paid your sales tax. And there's things like that that you haven't really thought about. We don't, you know, you guys have a different process for vat, but here you're expected to collect the sales tax and then hand it over to the state. And so there's things like that where people start to just look at whatever the dollars that go in to their, even if they have a business account and then just treat that all as, you know, that's 100% raw income and after tax income often. And that's the kind of thing that you really have to struggle with, to step back and say, oh, how much money do I really have?

Absolutely. And you know, it's such a, it's such an important place to start because it's a mistake that I guarantee every single business owner in who's listening to this has made where it's like, oh, look, I'll just, I'll just buy this on the business. You know, we had, we had a good month. We made some good, you know, made some good revenue. I'll just buy this thing for a few thousand bucks because we need it for the business. And I mean, look in the space I'm in with video production and I'm talking here, not from an ivory tower, but from someone who's been there, done that, got the T shirt, got burned, and learned a very valuable lesson. When you raise a big invoice for a client, it doesn't mean you can then justify going and buying a $10,000 camera because then when you have a second camera, you've got a backup. And then if something goes wrong because, you know, capex expenditure, you know, for those of you who don't know that phrase, it's when you buy an item for the business, that's what's known as a capital expenditure. It often doesn't get written down, you know, straight away, but it take the cash straight out of your account. So it's a dangerous place to be. So I wanted to ask you, you know.

How do you help people to work away from that, what is essentially a bad habit?

I think the first thing to do is to really get concrete about how much money you do need. And one of the things, and we've talked about this, people come in and you'll say, well, what is it? What are your goals? I'll say, what are your goals for the business? They I want to have a 2 million doll. And it's like, what does that mean? Right? $2 million in revenue, $2 million in profit, $2 million valuation. If you're thinking of selling business, what does that mean? And a lot of times they don't have any real concrete reason for having that kind of a target. It's a hologram goal. It looks like something from a distance and then you get close to it and there's nothing there. So that's one of the things is to really say, let's stop talking about revenue. Let's as you as the individual, you know, when you're first a freelancer, let's talk about how much money you really need to live and how much leeway you have to invest in your business if you want to grow it or if you're going to remain a freelancer. Sometimes that's the decision that you're going to make. What does that look like? And how much do you need to charge? What do you need? What are the services you're providing? So a lot of it's just like, let's just start talking about how much money you actually need. And that's a number. Most of us, we weren't learned, we weren't taught to do that. And, and it can be hard because it can be embarrassing. I'm like, no, if you, if you love fine wine, put that in, right? I'm not telling you to not have your, your, your small luxuries. Maybe you don't need to go to wine auctions until you've got the business launched.

I love this so much because this is something that I had to deal with myself, overcoming my own limiting beliefs. And it's because I think we're brought up with stories around money doesn't grow on trees. Don't be greedy. My grandmother used to say to me, don't get too big for your boots. My dad used to say to me, oh, you know, when you went to London and became that cameraman and got that big job, I thought, I thought you were a bit of a wanker. You know, I didn't really like you very much. You know, I just thought you were a bit big. You thought, you thought, you thought you'd made it. And what I realized now, I mean, he died 12 years ago. What I recognize now is that he had limiting beliefs because his mother was the same person who was telling me not to get too big for my boots. And he had an issue around money. And so I think we have to overcome that if we want to grow. And I especially love what you said there about if you love fine wine, put fine wine down. We actually have a process in our program where we start with, why, what is it you really want? And why is it that we are so uncomfortable writing down in the privacy of our own mind what it is we want?

Right. Well, because I don't know what you find, but what I find is when you write something down is now it can't go away. And when you haven't written it down and you haven't really set out what you want, you can't possibly be too big for your britches, right? You can always hide it. No one will ever know. And even when you say, I'm gonna write something down just for myself, right? And I show it to no one, you can shred it afterwards, ask somebody to write down really what they want. It becomes real and it doesn't go away. And you can't unsee that thing that you really want.

And you can't, you can't ignore it. You can't ignore it because it's there now.

Yeah. It comes and it pokes you in the side. You try, right? And we all. And I'm sure you had this experience, like, I tried many times after I left my career in financ. I tried many times to like, go look at. Go back to work in finance because I knew how to do it. And people call me with jobs and it's paid very well and. And it was just, it just wouldn't work. Right. And I was like, it's just this thing kept poking me around and it was. Sometimes the world kind of has to, you know, if you're, if you're really not listening to the universe, it's going to come and get you. It's going to make you listen. And that's the thing that I think is really, you know, what's so powerful about writing down what you want and getting in touch with it, but also so such a psychological hurdle that, you know, we have to work with, with our clients.

This is, I love, I love what you're saying here. It's, you know, we both work in a business coaching space and actually it's got nothing to do with business and everything to do with self. And we had, we have, we have some events we hold occasionally and here in Australia and one of the days we have a mastermind session. And often those mastermind sessions have done many mastermind sessions across multiple business coaching groups and multiple businesses. The real breakthroughs happen when the person being masterminded is, is basically telling you what they think you want to hear about the business. But actually the issue is it's a personal issue, it's, it's a self issue.

And, and I think what happens is we mask, we think, well, we're running a business, we'll just keep busy doing everything and keeping busy. And essentially what you do is you replace one career or one job where you're doing one job with many jobs for less money. But you can call yourself a business.

Owner when you're not very good at most of them. That's the other thing. You took one job, which you were very good at, and replaced it with a bunch of jobs you're not very good at. So that's another real challenge. And one of the things I like to work with people is when you first start, and this totally makes sense, when you first go out, the expression something is necessary but not sufficient. When you first very start, you get some QuickBooks or whatever, so you're sort of necessary and sufficient. And then the first thing we start to do is we want to delegate and hire and outsource the bits that are sufficient that we don't like, the stuff that we know has to be done, but we don't want it. So you get a bookkeeper, maybe you get a, a video editor, if that's something you don't like to do or whatever. You start to outsource and hire these people, but they're kind of like your dog walker or your nanny. I mean, you trust them with your baby, but fundamentally, if your revenue starts to decline, you'll fire them and take it back in house. And what you really are looking at, if you're from the business owner perspective, is that the goal of a business owner is to remove yourself from the business. So what you're trying to do then is to continue to delegate not just the sufficient pieces, but the necessary parts, the parts that you actually enjoy. And how do you do that as a business owner and also though allow yourself to work in the business and continue to do the work that you enjoy in the business. And I think that is a tension that is something that, you know, both you and I probably work with a lot of people through. How do I make that transition and how do I also come to terms if I don't want to really be a business owner if all I really want to do is work for someone else or I really want to do just a specialized freelance work. And how do I also build a life like that? And kind of how do I attract the people around me that I'm going to need in order to do that effectively? That's a, that's a process that everybody has to go through and it. And it's not overnight, so.

And also, there's no shame in something not working out.

You know, I think, I mean, everything worked out. I mean, sorry to interrupt you, but I mean, if everything worked out, you. I mean, I question if everything works out, you haven't really aimed very high.

Yeah. And the thing about, you know, that I still go through every day is like, right, I have a sticker on my computer that says, do it once, record and create a system. Because that way it's the first step in getting rid of the task. And I think certainly for business owners, especially in the creative space, you know, there are certain things that you believe only you can do because you have a certain style or you have a certain way of editing, but that can all be outsourced. But one of the things that I acknowledge and share with my members and want to continually promote and encourage is that if you are too busy working inside the business doing the things, you have no capacity to spot the gaps, the opportunities and the strategic issues. And those are the things that actually you step back and go, okay, let's take a helicopter view here. This isn't really working. I mean, we did it with this podcast we were doing. We were talking just offline there. We used to do a video podcast because you would, you would, you would fairly assume that the majority of the audience who listen to this show work in the video production space. They're video professionals. So you would automatically assume they would want to watch video. But our data told us differently. In actual fact, we've doubled our downloads in the first month of this year compared to last year by simply taking video off and adding a second 10 minute shorty podcast. So we now go out on a Tuesday and a Thursday. And I actually did a post about this that talks about, you know, trust your instinct, but back it up with data.

Absolutely. But if you. This part of the conversation we had before was actually you saying how it is a bit. It was the video podcast. It was awkward, right? You're not everybody, not every guest is comfortable in front of the camera. You're talking to a camera, you're doing these Things as opposed to in the podcast environment where we can really just talk to each other. And so I often look and say the things that you're doing, things that you think you should do that you don't even really want to be doing. So even if the data told you that the video podcast was doing fairly well, I would say if you're not loving doing the video podcast.

Why put that effort in? You're spending energy someplace. You could be making three times as many podcasts that don't have video in them and still have the same results or sometimes better results. So I often find that with clients, a lot of it is going through and giving them the permission, giving yourself the permission to not do the things you don't, that aren't really natural to you or that don't feel right. And usually the data is on your side. I think that. I think that's. It's rare that the data is like, no, you have to do something. If you don't really like doing it, it's usually not going to be the right thing for you.

It's. It's so true. And, you know, very. When I first started my business back in 2009, I had a very successful businessman sort of mentor me. And he said, you know, Dan. And he had an IT company at the time. He was actually, he was. He was helping Ericsson, the phone company, with part of their network. He developed some software and, and had the IP on it, and basically the network couldn't run without it. So he was in a wonderful position. But he was, he was certainly, you know, remunerated very well. And he essentially retired at, like, you.

Know, I don't know.

He was like, how old was he really? About 35, something like that? 40. And he said, you know, Dan, I had an office here of like, you know, 100 people before we shut it down and got rid of it. He said, you know, you can take all the advice in the world, you can listen to all the experts, you can pay all the consultants and watch all the courses, and that's all great to have that perspective. But fundamentally, running a business comes down to your instinct. And yes, you back up with the data, but you are your biggest champion and you are the person that got off your ass and started this business. You intrinsically know in your heart when something is working and something isn't. And I think one of the things that I've certainly observed is that when you take a lot of advice from lots of places and the Internet is now flooded with your feed is Flooded with like, you know, this course or that course or this technique or this Facebook ad strategy or just do this strategy on LinkedIn. It can become overwhelming. And I think where someone like you can really benefit someone is in that. Let's just talk about you, you know, as a client. You say to the client, let's talk about you. What is it you want? Let's go back to the beginning. Why did you start this business?

And really help them acknowledge and decide what do they want from their business. I realized this week that.

I consciously want to do some more conservation work. I live in a beautiful part of Australia. We're surrounded by forests and koala bears and I want to get involved some conservation and that's a really high value of mine. So I've got a business now that essentially means I could take a day off a week and go and do that on a Friday. Today I finish at 12 on a Friday, every Friday. I actually am building more of a lifestyle organization where I can probably run this business on about two and a half days a week, which gives me two and a half days a week to explore other things. And I know that's something that's very important to you as a coach, is actually helping a client to perhaps shift business strategy from thinking we have to make $2 million to be successful. Can you share a bit more about your process around that and why that's something that's an important value of yours?

Why the process? One of the things that I find interesting is I often, I have a lot of tools and techniques and I often start people in on a process.

And this is. You find this as a coach too. When you know that the business is not a fit, when you know that they're ready to make a change, that they want to do something different, they're suppressing their real desires. So I'll often start people in with what seems like a fairly innocuous exercise and I'll say like, you know, what's your ideal day? And I'll have them visualize and do it and we'll look at like actually like how do you spend your time now and how would you like to be spending your time and really suspending disbelief? And a lot of times so I always parking lot the money. So I'm just like, look, the money's not good. That 2 million dollar goal isn't going anywhere. Don't worry about it. I'm not telling you to get rid of it. It's a great goal. We're not putting it, we're just Gonna put it aside, we're gonna put it in the parking lot, and we're talking a little bit about what you want, what do you want the job to be? And often, as in that process, you start to get a list of all of the things that, as a business owner, should be delegated, should be outsourced, because you're not qualified to do them. If you really hate this thing, you should. Right. It's a terrible use of your time and effort. And also, I, as a coach, start to get a sense of the limiting beliefs you have. There's a bunch of stuff that you're doing probably that could be fully eliminated. And a lot of times that's like your. You know, it's like, oh, God, I wish I could hire somebody to deal with my difficult clients. And I'm like, well, what if we just didn't have any difficult clients? Oh, then I'd be broke. Okay, that's why we put the money aside. So let's put the money aside. Well, how do we build a business where there's no difficult clients? What is the screening process? How do you attract them? What do you actually want in a client? What constitutes a good client for you? So there's an ability to kind of start just saying, what do you want in the job? And then at each stage, stepping out. And as the coach, you're kind of an advocate for the business, and you kind of look in and say, okay, if you're getting too much into the self and we need to, I'll push you back into the business owner position and push you back into the self, back to the business owner. And you can start to look at whether the business is really leveraging you as its primary asset. And that's one of those things often, you know, when someone starts to look through. I had a client recently, this is not a video business, but similar type of business in a creative field. And he was looking at how much he really wanted to spend time doing strategic planning and thinking with his clients. And I was like, well, when does the invoice. When does the proposal get sent? Right? And he was doing all the storyboarding. He was doing all of this work before he sent the. The proposal is giving the milk away for free. So one of the things is to look, as a business owner says, well, if you want to spend most of your day doing strategic work, then the business needs to be getting paid, needs to be charging for that. And now you start looking at, okay, we're going to change how you do the proposals, change the screening Process for clients, change the expectations, right. And all of a sudden start to raise pricing because you're pricing out of that more valuable service. So that's the kind of thing you're kind of going in and out. And as a coach, you know, the client has the answers. I don't know what you want to be, I don't know what your dreams are, but I can come in and help you kind of play the devil's advocate. Advocate for the business when you know you're thinking too much at yourself and advocate for you when you're thinking too much at the business level. That's a little bit of the process.

That'S very common in the video space. And it's largely because the, the, there's a sense of validation at being chosen, at being picked in a creative industry. You know, you're, you're competing against other creators. And I think a lot of business owners who perhaps haven't quite cracked the business owner part and are still in that freelance headspace of. I just want to really think about this job and really give the client a great opportunity and great ideas. And I had this conversation with someone this week on one of our coaching calls. I said, you don't want to spend two hours with a prospect who said they want some idea of price. You need to ask them the right questions to as much validate whether or not they are a good fit for you. And I think often, and this is very common in small businesses, they just say yes to everything because. And there's a degree of survival and if you need to survive, you may have to do that for a short time. But if you're not consciously going through that process you've just explained, which is, you know, hang on a second. I have something of value here. The creative decision making, the creative development, that's a value. You don't give that away until you're being paid. In fact, you know, it's so interesting because this probably happens across lots of industries.

You know, people just don't value themselves and it's largely because they're not charging enough.

Well, they over or they over the other one occasionally get clients. People come in where they're overvaluing in the sense that. And this is to the point is when people, they get tired. So, you know, you're working so, so hard you start to get tired and now you start to want to hire people to do all of the work and you just kind of want to not work as much. Right. You hear that a lot. I want to, I just want to work two days a week and keep all of the money and sort of like what you were doing, you know, you're working six days a week now you want to work two days a week, somebody's got to do the four days a week work that you were doing and you don't want to anybody for that. So there can be a sense where it's sort of weird because they'll be underpricing at the business level and then overpaying themselves once the business starts to get successful. And in terms of not really thinking, hey, if I'm going to work to what is the salary that goes with the work I'm actually doing? You know, just because I'm showing up, if I have pet projects, what is the signal that I'm sending to the other people that I somehow seem to be getting paid all this money and I spend and I'm most the time I'm just working on these pet projects. That's a conversation and you're entitled to that as a business owner. But there's a different level of what does the business owner think versus what is you as the employee think? And your salary should be much lower if you're really only working two days a week in the business. So I think there's a lot of that where, you know, there's sort of this weird dynamic where we're undervaluing ourselves at the beginning. And then as you start to scale, it's very hard to step back and say, hey, I'm actually not working that much for the business anymore. And what does that look like? What are the economics and how do I manage the team when I'm really only a part time employee.

Now I love the fact we're going down the finance route because I agree, you know, business owners oftentimes just think that, you know, all the money that's made I get to keep. And I want to talk about, you know, something that I know you're very passionate about, which is, and this, this will maybe freak a few people out, but I love the context around it. So we want to say it. Leveraging capitalism as a force for good. Can you explain a bit more about what you mean by that?

Absolutely. So the first thing I'll say is one of my friends from business school, I was sitting around with a bunch of friends from business school and we were talking about kind of how, you know, capitalism is such a bad rep. And one of the things that a friend said, she said, capitalism is like tofu. It takes on the properties of what's around it. And I really internalized that idea of sort of tofu. Capitalism is what is. It's a tool. And if you think about it at the base with capitalism, capitalism says, I have something of value and you have things of value and we'd like to exchange them with each other. So in a barter economy, you and I, we get together, we decide what we're going to do for each other with services, whatever, and that's sort of one to one. As you get to scale, you need to have other. The markets begin to do that. Right. But ultimately what capitalism about is about all of us bringing our value together and then pricing it out at large scale. And we use money. Because I can use money with somebody in China, it's very hard for me to, you know, I can use with you. We have a one to one relationship. We can barter things. But if I'm going to be paying in a larger system, right, that's what we use money for. It's not the only currency. But I think when you step back and you say, okay, well, what are we trying to do? If you say, what I'm trying to do is maximize the amount of value that I'm creating. And I want all of the activities I have to either be creating for value for myself to be restorative, to be things that I enjoy, or be creating value for other people. And really, the more scale, and the greater value I can create at scale, the more I can monetize that. I kind of look and I say, well, that's actually a fantastic tool. Capitalism in that context is a great reward system. But you have to be going into it thinking about, how do I create value at the largest scale?

Sorry, go on.

And if you're not going in thinking about it as what can I, how do I monetize the value that I am creating?

You can get. Then you get into how it all becomes. How can I take, how can I pull money from other people and instead of how can I exchange value with them?

You know, Mother Teresa was a capitalist. And people often go, what? Mother Teresa? And she had a phrase which was something along the lines of, you know, no amount of poverty can change the world. And there's a story that goes whenever she met someone wealthy who came to kind of, you know, get the picture taken with Mother Teresa and do whatever, or she'd go to these events, she'd be like, right, write me a check. And she was ferocious, a ferocious capitalist in the sense that she knew she needed funds to run her, you know, philanthropic projects. But people often get freaked out with that because I think oftentimes, especially those, we all have a scarcity mindset. When we're born with both, we have to work on developing a more abundant mindset. Unless we've been born into, I guess, an entrepreneurial family where it's just the norm to be abundant. But I certainly come from kind of, you know, working class stock and had to kind of fight and still work on my abundance mindset. But, you know, and I think Richard Branson is another example where he is philanthropic. You know, Bill Gates is philanthropic because they've built these massive businesses which are operating without their involvement, which are creating massive profits that can then be redistributed. Redistributed. I can't even say the word redistributed. Put my teeth back in across whatever you want. And it's the same at a small business scale. You know, you have to be generating profits and keeping some of it in a war chest to give yourself the options and the choices to choose to drop a day a week. Because then if you drop a day a week, you've got to pay someone to fill you back in. And I just wonder what if you had any examples of that practically that you can share?

I mean, I. Well, I have one that's a client that sort of hasn't worked as well. So somebody who came in and really was asking for that, he came in, he said, I want to work less, I want to start this other business, all of these things. And I did a little kind of the intro work. You know, I meet with a lot of different people and we did a few sessions. And I think fundamentally what it was is that he didn't, he didn't want to. He really wanted to control still a lot of the decision. He wanted to be heavily involved and he didn't want to share that revenue. And so he was, it was a situation where he was, he didn't, he wasn't developing the talent on. In the team, right, to be able to take on more responsibility. And so I've seen it more in reverse. It's actually quite hard to see people dropping out and replacing. And it's something that I kind of, you know, look for when I look with clients. I think it's a lot of psychological prep and it's a lot of prep for the team because you're going to go from being somebody who's working 80 hours a week to ideally somebody who's working 20 hours a week or something like that. And that process, how do you prepare your team for that? So one thing we were able to work with is he just started working from home more frequently, and that allowed the team to build autonomy because he wasn't in the office with them. So that was part of it was to say, let's just start with phase one. But ultimately, I don't think he was interested in seeding control. And, you know, like I said, as a coach, we don't. We can't tell people what to do. We have to kind of let them follow their paths.

I think that's a beautiful place to pause this conversation because I think we could talk for another hour. Kezia, how can people find out more about you and what you do?

I'm on LinkedIn. That's the best way to reach me. So it's. There's not too many of us out there. My name is Kasia Robinson, so that's spelled K, E, Z, I, A, H. Or you can find me at my website, cassia-partners.com so just reach out. And I love to hear about businesses. I love to hear different business stories, and I love to talk to other coaches. So really hope to hear from anyone and all of you beautiful.

Thank you very much. You've been listening to the how to Scale a Video Business podcast with me, your host, Dan Lenny. If you're a video business owner who's hit a ceiling and we benefit from mentorship, support and coaching, then check out how you can work with me over@denlenny.com. don't forget to subscribe and rate the show over on itunes. And we'd really appreciate you taking a few minutes to leave a review. And don't forget to share. If you feel you've gotten the value from this episode and you think it would be useful for other filmmakers, you know, then please do me a massive favor and share it on social media and in groups that you might be in. See you next week.