BFC #006 - How A Creative can Turn Their Passion into a Profitable Business with Arana Wallenhoffer

You're listening to the Business for Creators podcast, where each week we uncover the secrets to balancing creativity and business all in the one place. With your host, me, Dan Lenny.

Well, hi, folks, and welcome to another episode of the Business for Creatives podcast. I am thrilled to have a very good friend on the podcast today.

G'. Day.

Hello.

What you have to understand is Arna hates being on camera and is doing this just for me. So listen, before we get into talking to Arna directly about her and her wonderful business, I want to just read a little bit about Arna to place her. So cover your ears if you're going to be embarrassed, but Arna Wallenhofer has an uncanny ability to balance inspired creativity with practicality and is passionate about creating beautiful, functional spaces with experience spanning all facets of architectural design, building design and town planning. She has expertise to direct the action from concept creation to construction. Arna is all about making the process easy for clients and is there every step of the way to help them in her company, which is called Norseken Collective. How was that?

Just hard to hear.

So, Arna, don't read that again.

Tell us in your own words what it is you do.

Well, we have a small architectural practice based in Sydney and we're building designers, draftspeople and town planners. So we sort of sit in the residential space mostly, but we do dabble in some commercial. Commercial work here and there.

So you're based at WeWork here in Sydney. Your business has been running for a couple of years.

So give me an idea of the kind of things you're currently doing. So you're the creative director of the practice. There are three. Explain how it works.

Okay, so we sort of take somebody's building project right from design, from the conceptual part right through to construction. We do hand over it construction. We don't get involved in the project management of the actual construction process. So I guess that's sort of our point of difference for where we sit in the market. We do the design process, the drafting packages, and then the town planner. So the three partners each have a role in that, the design draft and plan and sort of. We're each quite good at our particular areas. And as a collective, we work together to produce product that can then go up to the builder, and the builder and the owner can then work autonomously through the construction.

So tell me a bit about your story. What were you doing beforehand? How did Norton Collective come about? What were you doing before that?

Well, I've been doing the same thing for about 19 years, actually. So I mean, I haven't really done anything different since I was a teenager. But the place that I was working before we started, Norscan, in fact, I was the general manager there of a mid sized architectural practice and I worked there for about five years. And the owner of that particular company worked remotely overseas, so we very rarely saw him. And actually one day he just walked in, he flew into Sydney, walked into the office unannounced and pretty much spent the whole day trying to convince my team that I needed to be fired. So.

That wasn't the best day ever. So, I mean.

Yeah, it was a really, really bad situation, but I had the most incredible team and.

Actually five of us ended up leaving at the same time. Two of them are now my business partners. So it was a very tr. Tricky situation because the business owner had been doing things with the money in the background which none of us knew about actually. And so then he was in a position where he needed to free up some cash in the company so take out the biggest expense, which happened to be me. So yeah, I was gone and that was it. Escorted out that afternoon and then that was a Friday afternoon actually. And so I think on Monday we were sort of all guns blazing to start something new.

I shouldn't laugh because it probably wasn't funny at the time, but I know we've spoken since. And actually getting fired is pretty cool because I guess what does it do to you when you get fired? I mean, what kind of emotions do you go through when you think about what you're going to do next?

I would say the first emotion is rage. Just.

Well, I mean, creatives, you know, creatives, they give everything they've got. Nothing, nothing they do is very. It's not based in our brain, it's all from our heart. And so it doesn't matter whether you're working for yourself or with someone else. If you've given your heart and so many hours, hours unpaid for years to build up someone else's business and to create a reputation or to straighten a reputation or just to. Just to create something. And then someone comes along and because of money says no, that what you've done is essentially valueless. And that's. I don't know, that's like someone just stabbing at your heart. So rage. Yeah, I would say rage. Then.

Grief. So I vacillated from wanting to hurt people to just crying and control. This is so unfair. The injustice of it all comes out and. And then there was gratitude because I'm so glad it was me and not my Team. I'm so glad that they said, still have a job, and I'm sure I could find something, or will I? You know, if you've worked in the same company for a long time, in fact, you can lose a bit of confidence that you have some value elsewhere. You wonder if your value is specific to that company now. And so I definitely went through all of those emotions, actually. And then. And then it was just a great determination. And you know what? I don't even need you. Why was I even wasting my time with you? Let's start something. And I happened to have such a great team at that time that.

The two guys, my two business partners, they left without question, almost. They decided to resign and start something fresh from scratch with me and.

Another architect that worked there. She left on moral grounds. She wrote a letter and said, I just absolutely disagree with what you've done, and I cannot respect you, so I will not work here. And she walked away. And then the office manager pretty much did the same thing. So, I mean, having that support was really. Was really important too. And the fact that I had so many people behind us saying, yeah, you didn't need them. Don't worry about it. Just start your own thing. So, yeah, I mean, that's such a.

Great story because, you know, I really believe that life delivers you things for a reason. You know, the universe delivers you what you need at all times. So what was it about that moment that you went, well, instead of just going and getting another job, let's set up a business. Because that's a pretty big deal.

It's funny that you say that, because in the weeks and months afterwards, people would say, oh, wow, that is such a big deal. You set up your. But at the time, it didn't really feel like that because really, the three of us had already been running someone else's business. It felt almost like a bit of an inconvenience. It was a tiny little speed hump, almost. We just transitioned out of that business, set up our own, and kept rolling. We had clients, we had untold clients that threatened legal action on the previous company if they wouldn't release them from their contracts over there so that they could come with us because we'd been managing their projects for two, three, four years. So we actually started, though we started from scratch with nothing, just the three of us with our own personal laptops. We actually started the company with clients straight away because we had fostered relationships with people over years, which is something that, at that time, the business owner of the previous place Just didn't really grasp, he didn't grasp the importance of that. And these people, when you're dealing with someone's home especially, they're very attached to you and they, they couldn't even conceive of staying on with the company if the people that they've been dealing with for years weren't there. So in fact, we were able to move straight into our, into our business almost on the same projects that we'd been working on before. So I mean, that was definitely a leg up for us. And we made the most of that opportunity. And those very early clients, the very first quote we sent out, the very first invoice and all of that, they were people that we already had pre existing relationships with. So that definitely made it easier for us. But I think that the fact that we were setting up a brand new business, the enormity of that, I guess, didn't really.

Impact us until we were well underway and people kept saying, oh, wow, this is really amazing. Oh, is it? Oh, okay. Yeah, okay. It just felt like registering. I mean, the accountant did it all. So we came up with a name and then we just kept going the way that, the way that we did. So I guess in our minds at that time, it didn't feel like a huge hurdle. It was just more figuring out the nuts and bolts and okay, what actually will we do and how will we do it and where will we do it.

But the other thing I just want to just touch on here is because you're absolutely right. You know, starting anything is just a question of putting one foot in front of the other and starting it. But of course, you didn't have the capital that the previous business had. You didn't have, you know, clients will come across, but they might not pay you straight away.

So you started the business with a small amount of money each. And what was interesting was what you did with that money. Because I think what's been really clear from the conversations we've had offline is that you had a very strong sense of how you should position yourself in the market because you hadn't, you weren't just a new business. The actual physicality of the business was new, but you've been doing it for 19 years. So talk me the process of actually starting the business, how much money you put in and what you did with that money.

So we started with 15,000. It's tiny. It's a tiny amount of capital really. We each had our own computer, we had our own laptop. So we weren't sort of outlaying on equipment just yet. But we decided that we. That branding was really important to us at that time. Having worked in other companies, I guess you can see the ways and the areas that.

That particular company or even other companies in your sector, the areas in which they kind of lack. And so having that knowledge and being in the industry for so long, we decided that we wanted to invest a lot of that 15,000 into our branding, our brand identity, and we did that. We went to the best branding company that we could find, and we had them work through our identity with us. So that when we entered the market, when we just decided to tell everyone, this is who we are, we had who we are right then and there, ready to go. And, I mean, that cost us nearly $10,000. So that was a lot of money to decide. Okay, yeah, we're putting it in this one area, and we've never regretted that decision ever from, like, not till now. We're in our third year of trading now, and definitely our upward trajectory trajectory is far beyond what we thought it could be at the beginning, but it is commented on all the time about the strength of our brand identity and just the aesthetic of our brand, etc. And we've been able to follow through on that brand identity with everything from the beginning.

Including with our socials and our website and our tone of voice in our copy. All of that was worked through at the beginning. So we had that direction, and that's been really crucial for us because we're a design. We're a design business, so we needed to have a very strong identity about what we or who we are as designers.

Yeah. And I agree. I mean, it's so. It's such a powerful design. Before I met you, I just thought you guys had been around for, like, 15 years, which I guess you have been. But the actual brand, Norskan Collective, is fairly new. So I want to just move on a little bit more to kind of how we balance or how you balance business and creativity, because clearly, $15,000 of investment is not a significant amount of money. And you spend all of that on branding and a website, and some people might be like, oh, that's crazy. But I think you've explained well why. But when you talk about, you know, business and commerce, how do you balance the commercial side of running a business with three directors and rent in central Sydney with the creative process of designing people's homes? Do you have a process where, as a company, you separate the finances and the creativity? How do you do that?

I think from the Very outset we wanted our fee system, our fee structure to be really simple. Again, having had worked in other architectural practices, you see everything that happens in there. And being the general manager of a company prior to that, you see all the things that people dislike about the payment system. So what we did is we decided that at the outset we wouldn't follow what we believe to be sort of an antiquated.

Pricing model where it's a per hour type thing, etc. And then.

You know, you give a price and then you spend a bit more time, so you've got to build more. We just had seen that that just doesn't work properly.

In our field, we felt. So we decided that at the beginning of a project we would put a value on what we felt our outcome was. So my, I'm the design part. So if you come to us, I'm number one step, I'm the design. So I look at your project and I value what is my time, my brain power, my creativity. What is that value? I'm going to put on that job for you and that's my price. I'm happy to do this job for this price, regardless of how many hours I spend on it, regardless of how many nights I stay up thinking about it, whatever that is, the value of the job or the output for us, similarly with the other two categories, the design, the drafting is the same and the town planning. So that means that the beginning of the project, we have this price fixed and we've already said that this is what it's worth to us and we're going to do whatever we have to do to get that outcome for you. So the client agrees to that. They say, yeah, okay, we think that you're. Your workers valued it that much as well. So we agree. So they sign an engagement form and that's it. They pay a deposit and we don't think about it again, I can't have that, I can't have the money bit sort of inhibiting the creative process. And so once that's locked in, and we always say at the very beginning, let's just get the formalities out of the road now. So this is the price. They say, okay, they pay a 30% deposit. Okay, we move on. And it is not to this day, we're on our 63rd project.

In just over two years, which is significant to this day. We still haven't had issues with billing. It is just so clear from the beginning and so simple. There's a deposit, a progress payment and a final payment done.

I love that because then it just allows you then to focus on creativity and getting the job done. Which is amazing because I guess one of the things that I think a lot of creative people struggle with is the money side of things. And I feel, and I speak to a lot of creative people, I feel the main reason for the difficulty is because they're not clear up front what's included and what's not. And I think what happens is, and I don't know if you found this in your previous roles, that people get pissed off because they're like either doing too much work and they haven't built enough for it, or the client gets fed up because they're being billed stuff that they didn't realize and it actually makes for bad blood. And I think as creators, we're very sensitive to how people feel about our work.

Exactly. That's the whole reason behind it, because we're so people focused. The whole ethos of our, our business is to just please people. That's our first and foremost as a young business, that's what you want to do. So we don't want to have those conversations. We've agreed at the beginning, this is the price. We're happy with it, you're happy with it. We're going to do whatever it takes for us to get there. And you've trusted that at the beginning. So let's leave it behind and then we move forward and then we don't have to think about it again. I think that's been quite liberating for us as a company in general because we're not hung up on all these little things. We're not chasing money really. Not really. We don't have to worry about, oh, there's extra time spent here or there's bits, and you've got to have that conversation with a client. We just don't do it. And it's, it allows us to be better at what we do, I feel, because no one is too concerned with that.

And this is an interesting discussion because.

People do get hung up on money and certainly in business. And you know, you have a business coach and I work with people as a coach, and a very important metric is the revenue of the business. But we were speaking about this offline a couple of days ago and I loved your perspective on this and I'd love you to share some more. But you know, you talk about how you don't focus on the money, you focus on the outcome for the client and you focus on people being happy. And as a result of that, your business is growing, it's scaling. So what are you. What's your perspective on that in terms of how you just do things a bit differently?

Well, I guess you could say our primary focus, as I said before, is always the people. It's relationships and people. And if you've got that sorted, the money's sorted because people won't have a problem paying. You know, if you focus on the money first, then. And we saw that in the previous company we worked with, it was all based around the dollar. And maybe it's not the traditional way to think of business, or maybe it's. I don't know. For us, it works at this time, we focus on the client and giving them the best service that we possibly can and being as approachable as we can. And when we focus on that relationship and nurture them through the process of designing and building their home, then the money bit, it doesn't come into. It hasn't been a problem. It just happens because the people are happy. The people are happy, the wallets are open.

So what would be, based on your experience in the last two years and the 19 before that, what advice could you give? What lessons could you share with the listeners and the viewers about.

Running a business in the creative space? What would you. Because, you know, obviously you ran a business for someone else, now you run your own business. What are the things that you're doing differently from, I guess, working in a business that you. You didn't necessarily agree with a lot of the way things were done?

Number one.

The way that the business owner treated the people in his business was.

I feel, deplorable. I can't imagine how you could get anyone to share your vision or want to, and indeed want to work towards that if you treat people so poorly. And so for us, from the beginning, our company culture, I guess you could say it's probably a bit of a buzz term right now. The culture in the company is really important for us. We want people. We're a small company, so we want. We want people that decide to come and work here to really want to be here, because essentially they're working so that we gain in the end. And so you have to remember that your employees or the people that do things for you or the consultants you use, they are ultimately working for your gain as well. And so just to be grateful and to have that gratitude that that's what they're doing and to treat them, just to never forget that the humans first and then employees later, I think that's been a really big change. For us in the way we run a company, as opposed to how the previous companies that we've worked in have been run. It's working for us at this time, so we'll just keep rolling with it. I mean.

You know.

I hope you don't mind me saying, but you know, at WeWork, where we both work, you know, you're a huge, hugely important part of that community. You were one of the first people who moved in when this building opened your office. The door is always open. And one thing I've always admired about you guys is that your door is always open. There's a big comfortable leather chair and everyone is always welcome. Even if that means Alex is working every Saturday to make up or you're there till midnight, one in the morning. So what I think is a great observation is just how much of a value you guys place on human connection.

Yeah, it's so true. Humans are so important to us. They're our business, so they have to be important. You have to treat them well in terms of how we function in a co working, we work space. Yeah. You know.

I didn't even know what to say about that. The door is always open and there is always someone in the chair. And while from the outside that could look less productive or.

It has worked so well for us, just that mentality of never being too busy and always giving people your time. For us, our time is the most valuable thing in our attention. And so when people come in and they want to speak to us, we're always mindful to make sure that we give them time and attention. And not that this is the reason we do that, but of course that can't but have a positive effect on the bottom line of the business. Because when you've treated people well, you're first and foremost in their mind. And so the number of business opportunities that we've got just from being part of a space like this and just from having that quite open nature as a business and a generosity as a business, which is really important to us. That generosity, the number of business opportunities that have come about from that have blown us away, really. The kinds of projects that we were getting in the first year of operation, we would never have imagined that we could win being such a young company. And it all came about from connections and conversations and things that happened in here, mostly on that chair. So, yeah, that's been really advantageous for us being so focused on the people.

But of course that's not why we did it.

I agree with you. I mean, I was bapping at WeWork only a couple of months less than you. And prior to that I was in another kind of really wasn't a co working space. It was just a, you know, a temporary office. And prior to that I'd always worked at home. And I think when as creative individuals, and we were chatting with this other day offline, that as creative individuals, you three could all be very competent for freelancers working in isolation and having quite a good living. But you've chosen to take on what is not insignificant rent in central Sydney. I mean, it's a fabulous building, but it's still a significant cost and you've gone into a collective where you're actually not taking home as much money currently as you might be if you were freelancing. But talk to me about the importance of our freelancers and I think this is a really important lesson for anyone listening who's a kind of, who's a. Who's an island who's working on their own and is unwilling or reluctant to let go of control. What would you say to someone who wants to build a business but is struggling with letting go of that kind of solo nature of being freelance?

Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one because there's definitely a lot of people out there and whatever their reasons are for not wanting to sort of expand, whether it is.

They'Re nervous about.

Losing money or unsure of who to go out with, I would say that there is just actually plenty of work for everyone. And why not share it? I mean, yeah, we're coming into our third year. We're not taking home the salary yet that we were used to before, but we're having heaps of fun along the way because we're all doing it together. Yeah, we could be at home individually making a lot, freelancing on our own, but for me, that, I mean, kill me right now, that would be so boring. I would never even consider that. That's my personality though the others, they may consider that. But still, you've got to have some enjoyment, I think, in your, in your work life as well. And we, we happen to each really enjoy what we do individually and we really like each other, so we really like doing it all together. Does that mean we share, we share the money? Yep. Does that, Are we unhappy with that? Not really. I mean, if you're, if your view in your business is long term, well, the money will come. We make enough now to live off and that's okay. But we've never expected to be millionaires. We're not in the tech Space speed is not what is important in our industry. Longevity is, and that's really what we're. What we're most focused on at the time is just building a business that is here for the long haul. Our industry goes like this and so we need to be able to ride that out and we want to make it as sustainable as possible. We weren't out to break any records or.

You know, get bought out for a billion dollars by someone or. That wasn't why we were here. It was lifestyle a lot for us as well. And so I guess as soon as we stop enjoying what we do, that's what probably when we'll start looking around for something else or maybe a different avenue of the business. But at the moment we all still really enjoy what we do together. And so that kind of makes the money bit of it more of a goal, I guess.

I agree. And you know, I've certainly personally just grown so much being in a co working space. The relationships you form, the genuine friendships you make, but also the support network from other business owners and entrepreneurs and people who are starting out the business because. Because running a business is really hard and there's a lot of dark, hard days.

How do you find being in a co working space helps with that?

I think in a co working space, the dark days are not as dark and the hard days are not as hard because you're around so many other small businesses and all we have to do is say, step out into our hallway and I could throw a rock and hit 15 small business owners that have been through the same dark day, the same hard time as we have. And they'll just say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that happened to us. But you know, this is how we got through it or this is what happened with us, you know, oh, okay, I'm not a complete failure today. Or you know, someone else has been through this or sometimes they, oh, when we first started, we would say to other people, oh, how, how long was it until you paid yourself? And they're like, oh, it was like four or five years. And I'm like, oh, okay, so we're doing okay. Six months in, like, yes. I mean, there's so many different industries around just to be able to rub shoulders all the time and bounce ideas off other business owners and people that are just slightly ahead of you. They're the best ones for us to talk to. Ones that are, have been around maybe two, three, four, five years longer than us who have grown, who have been through our journey. We love talking to them. We ask Them questions non stop. Oh, what did you do here? Or how did you go with attacks on this person? Or are we on the right track? And everyone, everyone is so, I guess, encouraging and supportive in this community. That's really why you would join something like a WeWork community, because you're willing to participate in it. And so that has definitely been massive advantage to us on our, on our journey so far because that access, if we were just in our own little office, probably we could be paying less rent somewhere else. No doubt we could have our own little office and the three of us would just sit in there and just do our thing. I think that's the most boring thing I could ever think of, to be perfectly honest. But because we chose to come here from the very beginning, from the launch of our business, we've always had that access to people and that has undoubtedly helped us to just steady. I mean, it may not, their advice may not have helped us grow in particular or it might not have affected our bottom line, but it's probably just steadied our course a little, you know.

And don't you think also because I couldn't agree with you more, that as creative people we are vulnerable, we're vulnerable to how we feel because how we feel is such an important part of our work. And the one thing that I've certainly noticed being in this building is that you can have an off day and you make really genuine friendships with other business owners and it just lifts you. And I think you just, you just perform better because you're actively going to a space that has other people doing similar things. It could be radically different. But I know the community we've built up here, it's a really strong set of friendships and everyone's got each other back, which I think is so important. So I think, I guess what I want to share with anyone who's listening to this or watching this, who's working from home and struggling a little bit, is that, you know, you can, you can come into WeWork for, you know, nominal amounts of money and have a hot desk. So it's really important to get into some sort of community space where I think as creatives and artists are very good. Artists are very good at having art spaces where lots of different artists work. But I think as business owners in a creative industry, a co working space gives you that kind of support network.

It's really important though that if you do join a community like that, that you become an active member of that. In the two years that we've been here We've seen dozens of freelancers and small business, small businesses come and go. And what I notice.

The most out of that is that the ones that sort of leave or they don't stay for very long are usually the ones that aren't active participants. I mean, there's no pressure to do so, but certainly give yourself the best chance of networking, your success, of growth, if you decide to become an active member of that community. Get to know the people around you and what do they do and where do they come from and how did they get here and where are they going. Those, those conversations are really important and definitely help with, I guess, nurturing your own business.

I couldn't agree with you more. You know, it's just so powerful if you put yourself out there. And I think that what happens is a lot of people give up too quick. They come into a space thinking, hey, you know, I come into a co working space and I'll get lots of work. And if they don't get lots of work in three to six months, they start complaining the rent's expensive or they start to focus on things that maybe aren't right. And it's like an outward blame. And I've one thing I learned in the last sort of even year is that like, it's what you put in that counts. If you put stuff in right from the outset with no expectation of anything in return, that's when the magic starts to happen.

Yes, that is crucial because if you join a co working space because you think, oh, I'm going to get so much work out of that, then you're coming in with a very, with a, with a taking mentality and, and that's just never going to work. The community will feel that. But if you come in and you've got experience to give or you're open and generous with your time and you, then definitely you will reap the rewards of that. But you have to come into that community as a giver and not a taker. I mean, it sounds a bit like preschool, but it is so true that you will be disappointed if you come into a co working space thinking that, oh, this is going to be a great business opportunity. It's not. It's a good networking opportunity and from those networks that's how your business can mature.

I agree.

Maybe get jobs.

I agree. So listen, let's go back 10 years. What would you tell your old self based on what you understand today.

About business and life?

Ten years ago.

I feel like straight away I'm inclined to say just start Just start something, you know, but experience and bad, good experiences and bad experiences, so necessary. So 10 years ago I didn't have as many bad experiences, so I wouldn't be in the same position today or have the confidence today. So you have to live through those hard times. I know in your early 20s you're sort of itching to do everything, but it's really, really important that you go through some hard times, that you go through some good times. You work for some people, maybe you get fired by something, maybe you leave, maybe you have difficult co workers. All of those things will contribute to the success of your business later on when you're in a position to start or when you do start, and if you think, I've already had all those experiences, you know, then just start. What's the worst that can happen? It doesn't work. And then you go and work for someone, you know, it's not, it's not that bad.

Do you think that?

I don't want to say a lot of creative people, but you think creative people, as a character trait, are crippled with fear or crippled with the perceived judgment they might have by other people, either other creatives or.

Parents or family. Do you think that stops people from taking action?

Yeah. Yeah, of course. Creatives are by nature feelers. And so, you know, they, they care. They care about what people think about their art, their craft. And so sometimes you can lack the confidence in what you're doing or how you're doing it. And.

You may not understand or quite appreciate your own genius. Maybe, you know.

Until, I don't know, I don't even know when you start to appreciate that. But early on you can definitely think, I think I'm doing job. Maybe I won't get any work or maybe no one will like my things. But I think, I mean, that is just definitely common to all of us. And it's just guts. Just get some guts. Be braver. Just start something.

If you lack confidence, try something on the side. Just get your confidence up by doing something on the side. Work your mainstream job, but do something on the side. Do something to build your confidence in what you're doing.

And to, I guess, build value in that and collaborate.

You know, one of the greatest things is the collaboration. You can actually share the load. You share the load with two other business partners?

Yes. I mean, I couldn't do this without them. So I don't feel like it's sharing. I feel like they support me to do what I do better. I don't want to read legislation all day Alex, does it feel like that's a win win? Isn't it? Like, you know, I mean, how is that not making me better at my job? That I don't have to get bogged down in what clause 2.7 says about, you know, the height of a building? I don't want to worry about that. I want to be free of those kind of constraints. He puts it in a very lovely looking document for me so that I can glance at it before I start designing. And it looks pretty and I don't have to worry about pouring everything. So I don't feel like it's sharing. It's just he actually enables me to do a better job. And same with Chris. Chris does the drafting, the technical stuff. I get to build pretty models all day of beautiful dream houses without having to do any of the technical stuff or the legislative stuff. I don't see how that's a, that's a lose in any sense.

I love it. I love it. Okay, so what's the best advice you've ever received.

In business or just in life?

It can be either.

Okay, in business. So specifically about starting the business. It was very soon after I got fired. So I got fired. I went home for the weekend, cried for two days, got angry for two days, went back into the building on Monday morning because we worked in a co working space there as well. And I sat down with the other freelancers and small business owners. I just chose a little panel of them and said, right.

I don't know if you know, but I got fired on Friday afternoon, so I'm out anyway. Weird that I'm back here. I know, but I want to talk to you. Should I. Should I start my own thing? Like, I don't know. And like, what is the worst that could happen to you? What are you so scared of?

Oh, I don't know. Like the worst that can happen is it doesn't work. And then you just go back to working for someone. You just go and get a job. I thought, oh, oh, yeah, that's not that bad. And that comment was just a catalyst for us, actually, if this doesn't work, it's no big deal. Our houses aren't on the line. You know, let's just try it. Let's just have a go. I feel like that piece of advice for us just propelled us. What is the worst that can go wrong? Literally, what is the worst thing that can happen? Oh, oh, it might not work. Okay, then. Well, don't worry about.

Was so clear. It was just so simple. Oh, just Start. Okay, we'll just start. See how it goes. And we did.

So can you share one of your personal habits that you strongly believe contributes to your success?

Oh, a habit, yeah. Okay. Talk to everyone. Just be kind. Just kindness and generosity and time is so underrated in business. Just give people your time. Say hello. Just say hello to them. Stop. Ask them how they are when you're in the kitchen. Engage someone with conversation. Just be a human first. I think. I think that that has really helped us.

From the beginning. From the outset, people have known who we are and what we're doing and how we're doing it. And that is just because we try to talk to everyone and not because we're trying to talk to them, to tell them about us. Like, quick, listen to us. This is how good we are. It's. What are you doing? How are you going? And just. People first. I don't know. It's not very. Very technical, I guess, but it's.

I love that you know the names of all the cleaners in our building.

Yeah, of course. Because if you're clean and you helping.

Me learn everyone's names, because I admire. Like, I know some of them, but, like, you know everybody's name and everybody knows you.

I think it's really important, especially. Especially the cleaners, they offer you a service which, if it wasn't there, you would be in a very uncomfortable situation. So these people, and sometimes I feel bad because we're working when they come in and they come in and they're vacuuming around you, and I always want them to know that we're so grateful for emptying our bins and vacuuming our floor and dusting, because let me tell you, if that's not done, we're the first ones to write tickets and, you know, contact the building about not having clean facilities. So you have to recognise. Have to recognize everyone around you. That's. That's making your work place a nice space.

I love it. It's so human. So, listen, is the creative world missing anything? Are we, as creative people, missing anything? What does the world need more of?

I would say balance. I would say, particularly in particular. Creatives need to be a little more balanced.

Most of the time. Creatives can't do everything in business. I am rubbish at bookkeeping. That's just not what I'm good at. That's okay. It's okay to not be good at some stuff and hand that over to someone else that can do it. You don't have to feel that you have to do everything.

To Be success. You have to be more balanced than that. You have to have a clear idea of what your strengths are and what isn't your strengths. I don't want to scan receipts and log into Xero and do things like that. Boring. I just fall asleep at my desk. Alex, amazing at it. So good. Why not let him do something like that? Let the people around you who are good at what they do help balance out the service that you need to provide. Because the fact is that in a business, in addition to whatever creative.

Service or craft you have, there is a business side of things. And maybe you're not amazing at that, but that's okay. Get help. Just be balanced about it. I think sometimes creatives can start to feel that they need to do. They need to be able to be everything. Otherwise they won't be taken seriously as a business owner or in business. You will be taken seriously because you're really good at what you do. But just let the other people who are really good at what they do do it.

I love that. And my last question is going to be clarity. If you had one piece of advice, but I think you've just given it, which is just delegate and let go. Control.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You can't do it all, so don't try.

Arna, this has been amazing. Where can people learn more about you guys and what you do?

Look, our socials are really good place to watch what we do on a daily. We have regular stories so you can follow us on Norsco, Instagram, follow and like our.

Facebook Facebook page.

Would you believe I'm in charge of social? Yeah.

Our website. Our website's not updated as much as our social. Of course we're working on it. And also hit us up on our Google My business page. There's tons of content on there. We post regularly to that and upload photos of our concepts and mood boards and projects underway pretty much daily. So yeah, I love it.

Thank you so much for not only being enlightening, but I know that when I mentioned to you that this podcast was video, you went, absolutely no way.

I'm not.

I don't do video. I am so grateful and I appreciate you so much for stepping in into a very big realm of discomfort.

Very uncomfortable. Happy to do it for you, Jim.

I'm so grateful. I feel like you've shared so many wonderful, valuable insights with our audience. So I'm so grateful to you. Thank you so much, Arna, for being on the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

You've been listening to the business for creative podcast with your host, me Dan Lenny. If you're a creative business owner who is struggling to get your business performing at the level you want, then head on over to businessforcreatorspodcast.com to take a free business evaluation survey and discover where you can plug the holes in your business. You can also access a range of free training to help you build your business faster. Also, don't forget to rate the show over on itunes so we can get the message out there to more creators who need to hear it. Thanks for listening.