BFC #009 - 7 Steps to Run your Business without You as a Creative with David Jenyns

You're listening to the Business for Creators podcast where each week we uncover the secrets to balancing creativity and business all in the one place. With your host, me, Dan Lenny.

G', day folks, and welcome to this episode of the Business for Creatives podcast. Today I am joined by Dave Jennings. Now, before we get talking to Dave, I want to just share a little bit about him so you get a bit of an idea of who this gentleman is. So David's entrepreneurial journey begins back in his early 20s when he sold Australia's most loved sporting ground, the Melbourne Cricket Ground. Since then, his experience spans from developing and branching retail stores to founding one of Australia's most trusted Digital Agencies, Melbourne SEO Services. Now, David is the sole owner of Melbourne SEO Services and in 2016 he systemized himself in completely out of the business and hired a CEO to run it. Now the business still runs profitably and David simply advises from a strategic level. Through this process, he became a systems devotee and went on to found System Hub and the Systemology movement. Now his mission is to free every business owner worldwide from the day to day operations of running their business. He is also, if that wasn't enough, an Amazon bestseller and recognized as achieving a high achieving entrepreneur. You will find many of David's key presentations on YouTube, including TEDx, WorldCamp and Pro Blogger. Anything else, Dave?

I was gonna say, I couldn't have said it better if I wrote it myself.

Wow. There you go. I'm glad you enjoyed that. Oh, look. Hello. And I'm really thrilled to have you on the show. Tell us about. I mean, we've kind of. I've written your bio, but you've done a lot. What drove you to sell the Melbourne Cricket round? Let's start there.

That's where all good stories start. So I was reading a book called the One Minute Millionaire and it told this story of a gentleman in the States who sold the Brooklyn Bridge. They were doing some renovation.

Paul Hartunian. Oh wow, I've met Paul.

Yes, Fantastic. He's got a great story and the book was retelling that story. They doing some renovations on the Brooklyn Bridge. He got his hands on some of the discarded wood, chopped it into pieces, wrote a press release, created these little certificates, went to the media and said New Jersey man sells the Brooklyn Bridge for 2495 and the rest is history. They pretty much mobbed him with all of the different media channels and he was running on loop on CNN for many months at a time just telling this story of the man who sold the Brooklyn Bridge. I Had read that story and thought, oh, that's rather interesting. And I was driving past the mcg, the Melbourne Cricket ground. And for people who know anything about Australians, we love our sport and the mcg, this big stadium is almost like a religious icon. And everybody looks to the MCG as though it was just that magical place. And they were doing renovations. And I'd driven past, I saw them with a whole bunch of discarded wood and other things that I thought, oh, wow, it was like fireworks went off in my brain. I thought I could recreate this system, this process that I saw someone else apply and have tremendous success with. And that's what I did. I got my hands on a lot of the discarded wood and carpet. I wrote a press release, Melbourne man sells the MCG for 2495. And for the moment, for a little while there, it was a little bit like a flash in the pan. It was a little promotion there. I was the man of the minute. I was on TV and radio and newspapers and that was how I got my entrepreneurial start with that first little endeavor.

I love it. And what's really interesting is that like it wasn't an original idea, but you took action on the idea and built a system for selling bits of carpet and wood, which I guess is interesting because nowadays, I mean, you talked there in your introduction about how Melissa now runs Melbourne SEO and you've systemized yourself out of the business, which I guess is the nirvana that all business owners go into business hoping to achieve but never quite manage it. So what are you doing now and how are you helping people?

So initially I had, like any good entrepreneur, I had too many ideas and I have lots of different businesses going on. The primary1, Melbourne SEO services, which I was stuck in the operations for, for well over 10 years until I systemized and took the step out. I had this other side project which was called System Hub and it used to be just something that I get a little bit of attention to and it houses businesses standard operating procedures in the cloud. And, and once I stepped out of working in the digital agency, I realized, hey, my mission here is to actually help other business owners do the same. And System Hub became my full time focus. We started developing out a thinking methodology, a seven step process to help systemize business. The system for systemizing business. And that's what systemology is. And it really is.

The main focus for me now is talking about Systemology and System Hub helps to support that. But more than that, it's not even about the tools. It's really the process for removing the business owner. Because once you get the business owner out of the operations, that's where the magic happens. A lot of business owners, they have great ideas, they have opportunities falling in their lap all the time, but they might not actually see what recognize or even be able to action these opportunities because they're just so caught up in the daily operations. So I know if we can remove the business owner and the business owner can have a profitable business that works without them, then they can actually start to do some of their best work.

There's something else which I think is particularly relevant to the audience for this show which is the creative aspect of running a business. And there's two parts to this question. The first part is you actually run a video production company. But there's a slight twist in that many of our listeners are video professionals. But tell me what makes you a bit different from the other video professionals that might be listening to this show?

I can't even call myself a video professional because I can't use a camera, I don't know how to use Final Cut, I'm not trained classically or self taught when it comes to the video production business. The video production business was born out of our digital agency and clients asking for content. So we said, okay, well part of what we're doing is video. But that business, because I was never on the tools, was built from day one to work without me. And it's a creative business. And I didn't realize how unique that was until I started to get people outside of my world who are in the video production space talking about their business and how involved they are and how on the tools they are and how they can't remove themselves. And I just never got on the tools, so I didn't even know what that was like.

So what's interesting here to clarify is that you have no real creative skills in running a creative business, but you run a very successful creative business. So how could a creative person utilize something like Systemology or System Hub? Because oftentimes what I hear from clients is oh, but you know, I can't systemize how I edit or I can't systemize how I shoot. But I've seen your systems and I'm actually convinced that you probably can. But what's your take on that? What would you say to a creative business owner who probably is slightly chaotic in their approach and the idea of structure would seem to have them feel like they're confined. But what's your experience?

And I saw you make a post on LinkedIn just recently where you said systems set you free.

And.

And it's a little bit of a counterintuitive thought understanding once you get a base set of systems and processes in place, it actually gives you more time and freedom because a lot of the.

Automatic things or things that should happen automatically can start to happen without you. If you're invoicing clients or you're onboarding clients or you're setting up a project or you're getting new leads or you're selling someone, there are actually quite a lot of systems and processes there that can be documented and captured and delegated off to team members as creatives. If you're really having trouble letting go of certain components of your business, let's say around the editing or maybe the shooting, maybe leave those until last. Systemize everything else around you. At least then that'll give you more capacity to do your unique ability where you can do your best work. When you're on the tools and you're running your own business, there are just so many things that need to be done and you really need to strip away the things where you're not working in your unique ability so you can start to then just focus on your best work. So I think, I mean, a couple of insights there for creatives is you will actually find that getting that structure in place gives you extra freedom and then creates more space to work on the most important things in the business rather than being stuck on the treadmill.

It's a great point. I remember reading somewhere and I forget where this research was from, but it's something around if you get distracted during the day, it takes 19 and a half minutes to recover from the distraction. And I think when you're focusing on something creative, it doesn't matter what you're doing in the business. When you get distracted because someone needs a quote or someone needs to be responded to with an email, the brain power that it takes to go right, what did I send the last time we go and find that email? Copy and paste what I find. One of the simplest ways I use System Hub because my assistant tends to do all the systemization, is that if I need to send an email to someone, I just go to System Hub and copy and paste the email I've already written and that that job becomes a simple cut and paste job, which takes two minutes as opposed to me sitting and thinking about what I'm going to write. Because so many of our tasks in the business are our repeated tasks. So it's great and I think, you know, it's great advice for the listeners and the viewers to think about this.

So I might add one more thing to that as well, is there's a lot of things that a videographer or an editor could think of that would. They could go, oh, yes, I can imagine how a system, a process or a checklist would actually help. For example, when you're editing a video, having a system for the way that the project is set up, how your backups are done, where you're storing projects, what's the file structure, how you do your first wave of edits, and then when you do email the client to get their feedback, how does that actually work? So there's a lot of components that can be done. And even if you're working with contractors, let's say you get a little bit of extra work, you can then share with them a system or a process and say, oh, this is how I do my shoots. When you get to the client, I want you to, you know, say to the client this and that and set up the way that the shoot itself is going to run. And maybe you have a checklist for what actually gets taken on a shoot. Which cameras are you going to use? Have you got your audio sorted? So the more that you think about it, there are actually a collection of systems just oftentimes, usually it's just captured in someone's head, which then makes it very difficult to transfer.

And of course, the idea is that what you've achieved is to not be working in your business day to day. So by systemizing yourself out of Melbourne SEO, you've been able to dedicate all of your time to systemology and writing books and working with other people. So, I guess, do you feel like you've achieved the ultimate in creative freedom?

I think what it does, it just gives me the freedom. That's one thing. Initially, when I was trying to play around with what our mission is for our company, which was initially I was like, oh, you know, do I want to give business owners the ultimate freedom to go sit and lie on a beach or something like that? The more I've started to work with business owners, I recognize a lot of them enjoy working. They get a lot of fulfillment. A lot of creatives like recording films. So it's not so much that systems can go put you on the beach. Yes, it has the opportunity to do that. But really what we're trying to do is to free the business owner from the operations so they can be more strategic to work on the things that they love or the things that have the biggest impact and that's, that's what I've been able to do. I'm still working. I've been much more particular now. Like I work 9 to 5. I don't work nearly as much on the weekends. I try and avoid working on the weekends. And I've just changed my lifestyle now. And now it's more deliberate and more by choice. I'm choosing when I'm working, I'm choosing what I'm working on and that's been the biggest difference. And what I want to give to business owners is the freedom to be able to choose rather than I'm stuck on the treadmill, in the grind and if I stop working, money stops coming in.

It's such an interesting point because I've been running my business for nine years now and in the last year have made a massive shift towards systems and scale and bringing in team. And as a creative, as a cameraman, I was just so scared to hire team because I was worried what are they going to do? And they're going to be asking me what to do all the time. Can you remember what was the point where things shifted for you in your business? What was the tipping point? What made you go, this can't go on? Because so often, and I think it was Michael Gabbard wrote the E Myth talks about, you know, we're just engineers or craftspeople in our own business. And that book, I think transformed many of our lives. And for some, I know you got even more involved, but.

What was the tipping point for you? Where did it change? Where did it go? Do you know what? This can't continue like this. I need to change something.

The biggest thing for me was when we found out we were pregnant with our first son, Nathaniel. We didn't know it was Nathaniel at the time, we do now, but I remember working more than 60 hour work weeks and my wife, we just recently got married and, and she felt like she just married a workaholic and was probably wondering what she'd done. And I remembered thinking to myself, because my dad was the guy who was always too busy, like he was always doing something. He had his own business as well. He'd be up early, I wouldn't see him during the day, kind of lock himself in his home office and then all the way through into late night. And that was consistent pretty much seven days a week. And I always felt like I was waiting for him. And I thought to myself, I don't want to be that dad who is too busy when I get a Knock at the door to go out and play soccer out in the backyard or go for a walk. So I knew that something had to change and I got myself a deadline. I mean, we had a nine month deadline at that point in time where some significant changes needed to happen. And I knew that systems, intuitively, I knew that business could work without me. I knew that systems and processes were the way. I'd already done a lot of the research and read the books and I knew it. And it was just a matter of, well, how do we actually make this work and then be consistent on it to break bad habits. Because when you start a business, you build it up to a certain level of success and you build up some habits which actually hold you back from moving through to that first level, that's moving through to that next level. You are micromanaging, you are doing everything, you're outreaching, getting the work, you're getting on the tools, doing the work. You come to the end of the project and then you're off chasing more work and you manage the project all the way through. And that's why the clients love your work. They love the output because it's you. And you put your heart and soul into it. And so that behavior gets reinforced. Then the problem is when you want to move beyond that, it's very hard to let go because all of those habits have actually got you where you are today. But it's those habits that are actually holding you moving through to that next level. So having something that really breaks that and says, hey, it doesn't have to be this way, and they're looking for another way, that was kind of like a big sort of turning point for me.

And you touched on something there, which is the clients get used to working there with you. Because Melbourne SEO Services at one point was just David Jennings. And so the clients wanted David Jennings to run their campaigns. And I hear a lot of creative business owners share this concern with me often, which is, oh, but the client wants to work with me. How do I disengage from that relationship? Do you have any thoughts or advice on how to go about doing that and what's the first step you might take?

Yeah, it was a little bit of a process.

Initially. The sales and marketing was one of the last things I let go of. And that was mainly because I was quite strong in that area. We first systemized a lot of the operations and the delivery and the finance and even some of the management related stuff for the team. And it meant that someone would come on board, they would have that interaction with me before they were introduced to the rest of the team. And then it meant they kept on getting coming back to me. We started to do a few things to help with that transition. We set up a support email so all client communication goes through support at Melbourne SEO Services, so that way any team member could hop in and help them. I also had another account manager who would get assigned to that. And on handover I would say, oh great, you're going to be chatting with Jillian now. She'll be able to guide you through. She'll be your contact point. You'll be able to get her through supportlbournesco Services. And anytime you need a hand, of course I'm here. Just sing out if you need me. And Jillian knows to tap me on the shoulder when I'm needed, but she'll be able to really guide you through and they'll get you the best result. And then I often say things like emailing me directly, which is true, doesn't always get you the quickest or the best response. I can get caught up, I'm working on other projects, whereas you go through to support and you'll always get the quickest response. That was kind of like stage one and then stage two was actually then plugging someone else in to help out with the sales component now. So I mainly the small involvement I do have with Melbourne SEO is around the marketing side of things. So I'll help to generate that lead, but the lead then gets handled by a salesperson. Now they haven't really had any interaction with me and it's only by habit that they reach back out to me is if they've worked with me through the start. But if their first engagement is someone else right at the start, it's really a non event and a lot of people build it up in their head that it's actually bigger than it is. They think, oh, but no one's going to want to do business with anybody else. And you know, it's a little bit egotistical and I was definitely there. You just kind of have to let that go and understand that yes, other people out there in the world can do good work as long as you give them a good framework to operate within.

And that's where systemizing comes in. And if I can just share a little bit of my short journey with Systems and System Hub specifically is that I had this fear that I agree with everything you just said, especially, you know, the ego is it's my business, it's my baby, you know, I'VE built this, I can't possibly let anything go. But two things happen. One is other people actually bring a lot of value because they can see things from a different perspective. And I think in many cases can add value to what you already do and maybe even do it better. But secondly, I had this fear around, oh my God, I've got to create 100 systems in my business. Where do I start? And with the advice and the help that I got from Systemology and System Hub and you also was, I realized I just had to create some videos of me doing the process, then use the project management tool like Asana, where I set up a project and then my assistant interprets the video and builds a system. And we are now slowly but steadily or even rapidly building systems in our business. So my mindset three months in is that everything I do becomes a system. And this crazy tipping point is that something you see with a lot of clients.

There is about seven myths and that is one of them. One of the first myths people have is that you're going to need hundreds of systems. And the truth of the matter is you can probably get about 10 to 15 central systems as part of the critical client flow, that's what we call it. And that will actually move the needle for you. The other big myth is that the business owner needs to do it. The fact is there is for systemisation, it's a two person job. There's the person with the knowledge and then there's the documenter. So you want to split those two roles. Just as you pointed out, there you have someone who does the recording and then someone who does the documenting and then the original knowledge worker or knowledgeable worker can then edit what's done. And there's a lot of other myths as well. I mean, we talked about the systems remove creativity. When we actually find out the reverse is true. Systems need to be complex when systems are actually complexity is the enemy of systems. So you want the opposite. The myth that your team won't follow systems even if you had systems in place, that's also a myth. A lot of it has to do with the culture. And it's typically your existing staff that is used to the way that you do things, that you will have the most resistance from when new staff come on board. And that's all they've ever known. And that's just the way that you do business. You won't get resistance.

Like I said, there's quite a lot of myths surrounding business systemization. Another one I see with optimization, people think they look to McDonald's as the poster child as a systemized business. And they think I should be optimizing and systemizing like McDonald's. But McDonald's has been around and doing this for 60 years. You don't look at an Olympic athlete who runs, you know, 100.

Meters. How fast do they run 100 meters?

Probably like, oh, like seven, eight seconds.

You can't look at someone who is operating at that elite level and think, well, that's what I'm going to do. You have to go back to think about how and where did they get started and start there and head in the right direction. So I think that's a big thing of what I'm trying to do is just shed light on systems because it is extremely important and I believe it's the most important asset within the business yet there's just so many just misconceptions and oftentimes it has to do with things like the business owner being a creative. We talk about creative businesses now. You'll actually find most business owners, even if they're not in the creative space, are actually creators. A business owner sees a problem out there in the world, they create something from nothing to solve that problem. Then they're problem solvers because at every step of the way they'll come up against challenges and they think, how do I solve that? How do I solve that? How do I solve that? So I actually believe that business owners are creators and it's for that reason oftentimes they have some trouble with systems and processes. They can grow it to a certain size, but the magic will start to happen when you start to break some of those habits and you bring in some team members that complement you. You might not be super organized and detailed. Okay, well let's get an operations person who is to help round you out where you're weak and that's what helps you move through.

Absolutely. And I agree with you 100% that business owners are creators. And I think sometimes creative professionals, creative business owners who are creative first, sometimes, and this is not a criticism, but sometimes feel that their creativity is the most important thing. But systems with creativity I think is a very, very sexy and magnetic combination. Now, one of the things Dave and you and I have been talking about for some time is.

How do we help more business owners embrace systems and actually grow to love systems. And we've been part of this podcast is to share some of that knowledge. We were actually, and this will be time specific thing depending on when you listen or watch this podcast. But we are Actually doing something in Melbourne in February of 2018 to help creative business owners marry systems and creativity. Did you want to share a little bit about that, Dave?

Yeah, I think for the first time I'd like to peel back the curtain on what we do in our video production business and show the systems and the processes that we use and give someone, I suppose, a picture of what the end game plan might look like. This is the direction that you're headed. But then actually once we know where we're headed, step back to the moment and go, where are we now and what are the steps to, to get to that? So we're going to run a one day workshop in Melbourne. You can find out more about it. It'll be systemhub.com den to get a few of the details. Depending on when you're watching this, the recordings may be made available because we're going to record it. Whenever we do any event like this, it's all about capturing it and turning that into something that's useful. Capturing these systems and processes that can really be deployed in any video production business. I'm not going to be teaching anything that would be extremely specific to my video production business. In fact, every video production business needs to generate leads. They need to be able to convert those leads, they need to be able to onboard those leads, they need to invoice them, they need to do the pre production, production, post production stuff and then they need to deliver a great result that then gets the client to come back. That's the same across the board. There might be some different ways in the way that you do things, but generally speaking that structure is the same and that's what we want to actually walk through and share the way that we run this business. And then over time I think other businesses will start to recognize that this probably actually expands out to all creative businesses. I mean, you could substitute video production with digital agency, adwords, agency, design studio, like it's all the same. That critical client flow that I mentioned and those systems that hold the business together, it's what we all do. The main difference is in the operations.

And oftentimes when you go to business events, people will say, oh, but my business is different. And especially in the creative space, we're all slightly precious. We have a particular skill in the creative area. But I would back up what David just said and said that actually our businesses that aren't different. So when you peel back, you know, prospects, leads, conversations and then conversions and sales and onboarding, you know, oftentimes I'll hear Creators talking about the fact that clients are paying them late or they're not being paid. And that's because they haven't set up a procedure for balancing how the whole thing's going to work in the pre production stage. And one of the things I want to be doing at this event is following what Dave's shared with some very specific breakdowns into. For example, I'm putting out content on social media every single day on video. Now, it might surprise you to discover that it takes me personally 10 minutes a week to record five videos. Everything else is outsourced to my team. It's heavily systemized and I'll be breaking down exactly how we do that on the on the day and sharing the system for how we post stuff and take one single one minute video and create content across all social media channels, blogs, articles, Google, my business, you name it, we do the whole thing. And that's as a direct result of building a system which is now repeatable. And I'm just really excited to share it because that is being all of our front end know like and trust marketing on Autopilot, which is freed me up to do more podcast recording which I really love to do. So I feel like I'm able to be more creative rather than less creative. Yes.

So I mean if you want to find out more all the details, it'll be on that. Systemhub.com.

Den don't necessarily want to turn this into too much of a commercial for that event, but for the right person it will be an absolute game changer. Den has such a deep knowledge of the video production industry and I think when we marry that together with what we're doing with the systems and what we do at Melbourne Video production, I mean, you can go do a little bit of research and find out a bit more about us. I mean we run a full production company and I don't work in it. And that's something that I know I can provide some tremendous value to other videographers to show them that path.

And in actual fact, I mean, I don't know, I don't know the details on this, but you live quite a distance away from the office, don't you?

Yes, I do. So I live down on the coast. As part of that change I was talking about when we found out we were pregnant, I bought a house down the coast. So I'm a good hour and a half out of Melbourne. We built a home studio. So that's where I'm at the moment, at the back of the house and I wouldn't go into the studio in Prahran more than once a month, you know, twice. Once a month, once every two months is about when I pop in.

Amazing. It's really inspiring because you're just living proof that it can completely be done. And what I think I want to share with the listeners and viewers is that it's actually an awful lot easier and less painful than you might imagine.

Yeah, I think once, once you get started, I mean that's what the whole systemology process is about. And the, the short version of the seven steps is you identify the critical steps within the business, you assign the responsibility and roles within the organization, so you know who has that knowledge. Oftentimes if you're a very small team, it will be you. But there are some ways to make it easier. That's when you move into step number three, which is around the extraction. A lot of it has to do with just recording what you're already doing and understanding that it's a two person role. Then there's the organization of it. How does it integrate with your project management software? And then something like System Hub which handles the how to. Because there's a definitely two distinct functions which both of those software components handle. Then you move through to the.

We'Ve got, that's the organized and we move through to the integrate, which is then how do you then get your team to follow those processes and how do we address that myth that everybody has that my team wouldn't follow processes, we're too creative and how do you look at that? Then we kind of move into scale. That's when you start to identify what are the systems outside of the critical client flow that are really important things like hiring staff, onboarding staff, paying wages, management related systems, finance systems for, you know, submitting your quarterly returns, those sorts of things. You identify what, what those are and then the final stage is optimization. And most people get that all a bit back to front. They try and make their systems and their processes perfect right up the front and then that just becomes another reason not to get started. The easiest way to get started is to just capture what you're doing and get that down first and optimize afterwards. Once you've got all of the pieces down, once you've got everybody following some consistent processes, it actually means your number now start to mean something because everybody's doing the same thing. Then you can start to hand pieces off and you can also pull pieces out of the business, work on this separately and go, oh yes, we can improve the way that this is working because you know, as Den said, one of the problems might be getting clients to pay. And I always feel like I'm having to chase them. Well, if that's a problem, let's have a look at re engineering the payment process. Maybe you need to have your 50% deposit up front and you tell the client the shoot will not go ahead unless you collect that deposit. And maybe you don't deliver the final video until final payment is made, no matter how much noise they make. I mean those two small tweaks right there at a systems based level will actually start to reduce and remove a lot of the problems. And if you want to be the nice guy for the client because you've built up that rapport with the client, then you set up a separate accounts email. So it comes from someone, not you, so it doesn't harm the relationship. And then they can be more particular. I need to be paid for this work. And work doesn't go ahead and it's easier for you then to say, hey, this is out of my hands. Accounts tells me I can't shoot because you haven't paid. Like there's a few small tweaks like that that have significant impact on your business.

Dave, I know that you're running short of time, so I want to just ask a couple of quick fire questions. What's the best advice you've ever received?

The best advice I've ever received is to deliver more value than someone expects from you.

Epic.

And can you share any personal habits that you deploy on a regular basis that have contributed to your success?

Personal habits would be.

Just capturing everything that you're doing. So whether that's through screen recording, whether through that's running of events and recording it anytime that you can capture the video of you doing something and then use that as a training tool for team members just gives you huge leverage.

And what would be the one book that you would recommend someone reads apart from your own book? I mean you do it.

And Dave's just showing us for those of you listening. Authority Content by David. Available only bookstores.

If I was going to recommend one book, it would be this one, Traction by Gino Wickman.

That is an excellent book. It kind of builds a lot on some people may have read another book. I'm just seeing if I can see it here. Scaling up by Verne Harnisch, which is more well known. What I felt like scaling up was was a collection of tools for growing businesses and working on your business. Whereas I feel like traction was the systemized version of scaling up. Scaling up is a bit like here's everything. It's just like give you everything. Whereas traction is more of a systematic approach to growing and building business. And what systemology is, is it just solves just the systems component of that and we do it really well.

I agree. Wonderful. So is the creative world missing anything? What does the world need more of.

The creative world or. The world needs more entrepreneurs with enough space to work on opportunities and have big ideas? I honestly believe that entrepreneurs, business owners, they are the people that are really changing and supporting the world. So anything that we can do to support them is a win for humanity.

I love that. I love that. So, finally, if you had one piece of advice to share with the listeners and the viewers of this podcast show, what do you think that might be?

Head over to systemhub.com Den.

Joking aside, it's great advice.

I'll have to leave it on that then. That's perfect. They'll come along to the event and we'll show you. Share plenty of gold nuggets. I mean, this is what we've done. We've solved this problem. We understand very particularly who the target audience is. You, the problems that you have, and then this event is designed to solve those problems.

Yeah, David, I'm conscious that you've got another call, so I don't want to take more of your time. Thank you so much. So where can people find you?

Best place to go is just systemhub.com and then down in the footer on that page, there's links to, to Twitter and LinkedIn and Facebook if you want to connect there or even just through the site. So that system.

We'Ll make sure that all of that's documented on the page. David, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure hearing your story. I'm sure we get to talk for many more hours, but I know you've got another call, so thanks so much.

Pleasure. Thanks for having us.

Dan, you've been listening to the Business for Creatives podcast with your host, me, Dan Lanny. If you're a creative business owner who is struggling to get your business performing at the level you want, then head on over to businessforcreativespodcast.com to take a free business evaluation survey and discover where you can plug the holes in your business. You can also access a range of free training to help you build your business faster. Also, don't forget to rate the show over on itunes so we can get the message out there to more creators who need to hear it. Thanks for listening.