How embracing the word "NO" can save your business. EP #176 - Ryan Koral

Ladies and gentlemen. G', day, guys.

That is Ryan Coro sneaking in the beginning of this episode of the how to Scale a Video Business podcast. I love this. This is. This is like. This is like unedited, right? So we are here at episode number 176, and what Ryan just said to me was, damn, are you trying to catch up with me? I'm like, yes, I actually am. I'm like, you and Ben Amos, man. I was way behind for such a long time that it's time to get stuck in and chase you guys tails. Anyway, guys, this week we have the wonderful, very handsome Ryan Corll from TEL Studios over in Detroit, Michigan, to share some knowledge bombs with you on this week's episode.

Well, Mr. Coral, it's a pleasure to have you here, not least of all because you are alive and well. I think we have rescheduled this podcast now three times. My. My episode I did for you, you inconveniently had Covid, which is very, very unfortunate. And then I think last week we tried to do this, and you were like, man, I've just had my Covid jab and I'm wrecked. So just. Just thank you and. And so great to have you here alive and well.

I'm super glad to be here. I think it's amazing that I interrupted the intro. That was just.

I think that's just.

What a class act, you know?

Classy. Classio. Danny, this competition of mine, Jesus, they're. They're. They're brutal.

This is the Dan Lenny show, starring Ryan Corey.

Look, you have the biggest podcast in the world on this topic. Just. You are number one.

Okay.

I'm happy being number three or four. I. I bow to your greatness.

Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.

Wow. Wow.

Super glad to be here.

I know. Absolutely. Well, look, let's.

Let's.

For anyone who doesn't know who you are, because that would seem insane.

Who is Ryan Coral and what is Tell Studios?

Yes, Ryan Corll is the man behind Mel Studios. Yeah, yeah. I started. I started into in video 17 years ago, and, you know, today I've got a team. We've got a really cool studio in the Metro Detroit area that only one of our employees currently works and has for the last last year or so. Yeah, and we serve. You know, over the last 17 years, we've done every single project probably imaginable. But today, the majority of our work, we work with corporations. And the thing that we love to do is to really get to the heart and soul of who a brand is and tell those stories. Those are just exciting. And I love people and I love their stories. And so to be able to, you know, create videos around that is super fun and inspiring. And I love the business side of what we do. So five years ago, I started a company with my friend Matt Davis called Studio Sherpas in order to help serve the videographers, the video studio owners who are really good at shooting and editing, telling stories, but when it comes to running a business, don't care, aren't good, don't know, you know, all of that stuff. It's the stuff that I just have worked on for a super long time. Refined. Love reading books on business, love talking about it. So we created this brand to educate. We launched the podcast five years ago, which is why we have so many more episodes.

I know I've had to go to a week, you know, I'm gonna beat you soon. I'm gonna go to get. I'm gonna become number one in volume, Just sheer volume and brute force.

That's right. That's right. That's good. You know, that's the way it should be. But yeah, it's. It has been. We've had amazing clients over the last 17 years. We've had amazing opportunities. I've been to places all over the world. I have yet to be in Australia, but I plan on at some point.

Well, I mean, given that Ben Amos lives 10 minutes down the road, it's about bloody time.

We just. Just have a. Have a get together.

Unfortunately, we're closed just now. I mean, thank you for your interest in Australia, but we've closed because we decided we didn't want to bother with COVID Yeah.

And they'd probably look at my record sheet and be like, no, this guy.

Ben and I may have to have a word with the government, but we'll work out eventually.

Okay. Yeah, just keep me posted. Yeah, but. But over the last five years, working with videographers, filmmakers, studio owners, that.

That work has really made me come alive. It's been which. And I'm assuming you know, similar story for you.

Yeah.

To be able to help other people in their business, in this business, it's incredibly fulfilling. And when I'm able to help people build something that's sustainable, where they can charge more and not feel guilty for trying to build a profitable business, that's just an incredible gift. To be able to serve in that way.

I agree. I read an interesting email the other day from Sam Ovens and it said this. Those who can't teach and I was like, I just love Sam Oven's whole direct approach. And I don't think anyone's ever said that to me, actually, and probably not to you, but I love. His email was basically saying, those who can't teach. And it's quite common that if you go to the local college, the person teaching the film course is probably not working as a filmmaker, but those that can and have and have done it for a very long time and kind of like, I wouldn't say are over it. But there's nothing to prove then.

Can teach and share. And I agree with you. The real reward that I get every single day going to work is when I hear clients tell me, oh, they won this huge contract, or they up their rates, or they got a client to come back and increase a budget. And that, to me, is the joy. And I think one of the things that I have connected with you and Ben over is that we all technically. Well, technically, we all run businesses that to some degree, compete with each other. But the thing that I always promote and that you and I and Ben have always promoted is like, there's just so much opportunity out there, and there's so many people to help. If we can help more people working together, then that is a kind of purpose and mission of mine. And I also wanted to really encourage video studios to work together because there is such an enormous amount of work. And this kind of takes me back to the first time we ever met, I think was in Weaver in Florida, in. Oh, man, I was at 29 or 2010. And Weavers, this organization that collaborates with all these wedding guys. So did you start in weddings? Is that. Is that how you came to be there?

Yeah, I mean, I started in, like, just doing. I was working at a college doing video for them. I left the college to do video full time, so they were contracting me. The church that we were going to has this incredible production department, and so they were. They needed extra help, so they were hiring me. Then I was just doing a little bit of everything in between for the first six months. And then I had a photographer friend who said, hey, I'm shooting this wedding this weekend. They need a video. They've got 500 bucks. Are you interested? And I was like, sure. I have no idea how to do that, but I'll do it. And I loved it. And the couple loved it. The family loved it. And I said, I just felt like my mission was I could make these beautiful pieces to capture this amazing memory for these families and to create a heirloom and so for the next seven or eight years, that's really how we built. Is that a champagne bottle? What are you drinking?

It's actually a wine. It's a picnic cooler wine bottle, but it holds like 750 milliliters of water.

So.

Yeah.

Oh, water. Okay.

I could pretend it's wine. Just getting on the wine at 8:19 on a Friday morning here in Australia.

This won't make any sense whatsoever, but I have a gift for my 50th birthday for one of my very good friends, Judy.

She.

She runs a gifting company. She gave me this amazing. And then it was this kind of beautiful, kind of bronze wine bottle cooler which is one of those double skins so you can put an entire bottle of wine and keep it cool in the hot Australian sun. So. Sorry. I just wanted to give. Paint a picture for the. For the listeners.

They got it. That's. That's just like, amazing. So, yes, for the first bunch of years, like, weddings were our primary focus, which is how I ended up at that conference. And the funny thing, kind of like what you were talking about competition and this whole thing, I went to that conference and there were, you know, so many different speakers and presentations and they're from all different companies, all different, you know, guys and gals, competitors. Right? And I'm taking notes furiously after each one. And that's the. The beauty in.

Having a mindset of abundance is that there is so much. There's so much business. There's so much to learn. We're better together, right? This idea of community versus competition is like. It's. That really makes my heart come alive. And. And granted, there might be times where somebody is making a choice, like, hey, I've got to buy Den's pro program or Ben's or Ryan's because I've only got so much money. And. And, But. But that's fine because whoever resonates the most, whoever they connect with the most, whoever, you know, everybody's program's a little bit different and everybody's style and everybody's experience. And so we're not. I'm not for everybody. And that's fine. That's okay. And when it comes to, like, running your production company, it's the same thing. Like, you're not a fit for everybody. So, like, be okay with that. When it comes down to, like, you're competing on price or, like, you know, they're hiring somebody else because their quality is better. Like, then. Then it's like, time to, like, look at, you know, how you're doing. Business. Not like I'm going to undercut the competition, but like, what. What do I. Am I doing this, you know, as good as I can? Is there anything that I can learn from, you know, not getting hired from that project? And ask that client that didn't hire you, like, hey, is there something I could have done? Like what? And, you know, don't blame the other company and don't be mad. Like, use those opportunities to grow. And. And then probably my favorite thing, when I started my video company, one of the very first things, actually, it was when I got this opportunity to shoot this wedding. I started Googling, actually. Was Google around back then? I don't remember. But I started looking up online like, you know, what is a wedding video? And then I found this association in the metro Detroit area called the Michigan Independent Video Association. And I went to a meeting and I met 20 other guys that were, you know, seasoned wedding event video guys. Became friends with a lot of these guys, took a lot of these guys out for lunch and coffee and was just asking him every question I could think of because I'd never shot a wedding. I didn't know what to charge. I didn't know, you know, I didn't know anything. And there were a good amount of these guys that wanted to help me. There were certainly some guys that were a little afraid, who's the new kid on the block? And you know, he's going to start stealing all of our clients. And that's not. I. I was just trying to, you know, build community, learn, grow, whatever I could do. But here's the beautiful thing is I got so much work from other videographers because, you know, when you're shooting weddings, you're only available for one day, and so the most popular days get booked up. Well, then what do you want to do? If you're ser. If you're really. If you really care about serving your clients, you're going to refer them to somebody who you like. And so to have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 people, companies that you can refer to, to a client that you can't film their wedding, that speaks volumes. And so people come already pre sold. And so I booked so many jobs, I was able to pass so much work off to, you know, to these same guys who were passing work to me. And I made so much money from people in this network of video people. And that was. So. That was just kind of ingrained in me from the very beginning. So, you know, not to say that there haven't been seasons where I've Been like a little bit more fear based and like, oh man, like, you know, cash flow is a low bank account. You know, there's not as much money as I want in there. So like, maybe I did, you know, or do sometimes like bite, scratch, claw a little bit more than I should. But overall, you know, my heartbeat is really like, I want to, I want to show up each day open handed and ready to serve and be okay with not booking every job that comes my way. And if I can help somebody by passing them along to somebody else, that might be a better fit. Like, that's the mindset, that's the attitude that I want to bring.

Well, you know, you and I are both real kind of lifelong learners and love everything to do with online marketing. Direct response. Some of the guests you've had on your show have been, I've thoroughly enjoyed the episode. I've been like furiously making notes. So thanks for doing the work.

Absolutely.

A lot of work. But I think the thing that always sticks in my mind is the importance of staying in your lane. And I'm known for being the kind of the niche, kind of the hammer of the niche. It's like, just go niche, go niche, go niche. And I was like, oh, I don't want to go niche because I'm scared. And, and yet.

When you evaluate your business, there's probably 80% of your business comes from one sector or one style or one approach. And, and if you just stick in your lane, it's, it's stupidly easy to make a really successful business. However, and I say this to my clients all the time, is we are creatives. And the, the curse of the creative brain is that we always think we should be reinventing and making stuff new. What business needs is actual consistency and repeatable, somewhat mundane process. So tell me about your journey from, from wedding videographer to running a highly successful video studio doing, you know, sizable budgets with some pretty kind of top name clients.

Well, you know, as my family grew, when, when I first started I left a job, I was making $22,000 a year. I was, I mean, that was not very much money out of college. But at the same time, my wife and I were newly married. We didn't have any debt, we owned our cars, we lived in government subsidized housing. So I left this job and I needed to replace an income that was the equivalent of $11 an hour. People are like, oh man, you started your own business. Wow, what a risky thing to do. I'm like, $11 an hour. I mean, seriously, I go to McDonald's and make $11 an hour. So it was. Wasn't that big of a deal.

But, you know, as, you know, my first wedding, I charged $500 for. I thought that was like a million dollars. And then, you know, fast forward a. And we're booking weddings for, like, $25,000, and it's like, holy cow. Like, are you serious? How. What. What happened? But as. As our expertise grew, you know, I'm investing in education and gear and, like, all of this stuff, and plus my years of experience and. And that. That just became to me, like, more and more valuable. And I was like, man, we need to be able to charge more. And so we kept charging more, but then we got to a point, especially here in Michigan, and six months out of the year, like, that's when people get married typically, or at least that's when those are the weddings that you want to film, because they're usually outside or, you know, whatever. There's not snow and all these things.

And there was six months out of the year that we weren't really doing much except for marketing, advertising, you know, learning. And there was just an huge opportunity to make more money. And I was. I was. I think early on, I was very hesitant to make a lot of money. Like, I was just like, money, you know, too much money is probably not a good thing.

And selling out, you're making money, you're breaking. You're breaking away from the art, right?

Yes. And so I had this internal battle of, like, I had this desire to grow this thing because I thought I could actually do a lot of good with more money. But I was afraid to, like, tell people that I was afraid to charge more because I was just afraid of what people were going to think. So I kind of secretly, subtly was, like, increasing our prices. But we just got to a point in 2011, 2012, where we had just had our second kid, we lived in a pretty small bungalow, and we were just like, man, we have bigger dreams for our family and what we want out of life, and I'm paying one of my employees a little bit more than I'm paying myself, and this just isn't super sustainable. So in that moment, I had to make a decision. Did I want to continue on this path of being this super creative director, filmmaker.

Just the best video guy in the world, or did I want to really figure out how to run a business and how to be more profitable and be more efficient and maybe hire people that would shoot or hire people that would edit and. And I Said, you know what? That's. That's more sustainable if I get hurt. And I. I've focused all of my attention on being out in the field shooting. What if I can't shoot? So then, you know, I was like, okay, I need to find somebody that can shoot. And then I'm like, man, editing, that takes so much of my time. I love doing it, but that takes so much of my time. And what if I was, like, selling a little bit more instead of doing all this editing? We'd be able to sell more jobs and make more money, and I could pay for a shooter and I could pay for an editor. So all of those things got me really excited to say I could build a business that doesn't require me to do the. The production in the. In the main parts of the business. And that's when I. That's. That's when we shifted. We started doing corporate Storytel and really started connecting with these much bigger organizations, much bigger budgets. You know, we were back then, five or ten thousand dollars for a wedding. Our first really big job that we got when we rebranded, well, we added a. Another brand was a $25,000 opportunity with the University of Michigan, the school of business. And I was like, oh, my gosh. We. We just booked this. That's like five times bigger than our average wedding. And the amount of work. Don't tell them this, but the amount of work that had to go into that project, plus it was Monday through Friday, 9 to 5. Like, hey, we're gonna shoot at the university. Oh, come at, you know, 10:00am and make sure you guys are leaving by 3 because of traffic. And we're like, oh, my gosh, this is amazing. It just felt so cushy. But that's just the way that the world of business works. Much different than, hey, our wedding's on Saturday, so be here at 10am and stick around till 12am Right. I mean, it was just like a.

Much different thing between, you know, business to consumer and business to business, because consumers are spending their own money. Businesses are spending the business money. And so the bigger the business, you know, the 25, 30, $40,000 job for a business making 200 million a year is like, you know, they don't have to need to get a second signature on it. So I think that's a really valid point. So. And presumably you still have a University of Michigan as a client in some form.

What did you say? Do I still have them as a client?

Still have them as a client?

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

We actually just re Upped value of that client's probably insane.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. I mean, it's in it. And the crazy thing is, like, we've only worked with, like, a handful of their. I think they have, like, 26 colleges. We've only worked with, like, I think three of the colleges and a couple of departments like that aren't any of the college. It's getting in with a. With a major university is like, that could be. Our whole business is just, you know, seeking out work there. But, you know.

Yeah, we haven't. We. You know, we're just doing all sorts of other stuff, too.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, I always. I always say that the clients that you want to nurture are the ones that just call your mobile or your cell phone and go, hey, we got a job. It's 20 grand. Book it in. You know, it's that kind of highest leverage. Eugene Schwartz has five levels of customer awareness. It's like, most aware. Hey, Ryan, I've got this job. Here's the budget. If it's not enough, let me know. And I think, you know, one of the things I admire about what you do with everything that you work with is you're on the same mission as myself and Ben, which is to help business owners have more confidence to focus on the right opportunities. And. And. And it's okay to say no to the wrong opportunities. How did you. How did you. How did you find that process going from that kind of more perhaps freelancer? We all have scarcity and abundance in us, right? But how did you manage to tune out the scarcity and. And embrace the abundance?

One of. I'm friends with super smart people, and my buddy Jim is really amazing salesperson, business development guy. And one of the things that he had said long ago to me, he's like, hey, you want to get a no? When you're talking to a potential client, you want to get a no as soon as possible. I'm like, no. Why would I want to get a no? Like, if I'm talking to somebody, I want to get a yes. That's the whole thing.

He's like, ah.

He's like, but not everybody's a good fit. And the sooner. The sooner you can actually get off the call and talk to somebody who is a good fit or has the budget or, you know, is a good culture fit or any of that stuff, like, that's who you want to talk to. So if in the first two minutes you get A sense or they get a sense that you're not a good fit and it's a no. Awesome. Like, let's identify that as soon as possible. So, you know, I think the process was to kind of get to that spot to be okay with like not working with every client. Was the experience of working with so many crappy clients. Yeah. To, to realize like not every opportunity, even if, if they do have a $25,000 budget, that, that can be like super, like, oh my gosh, like this is going to be game changing for us, is going to be the best. And you get a client from hell and it's like revision after revision and they're super nitpicky and they're calling you on your cell phone on a Friday night at 10pm yeah, literally like, that's happening. That's the worst thing ever. And so I experienced enough of these people that just, they weren't good people and they didn't care about me. It was just more like, you know, they were going to do it. They felt like they were spending enough money that they could tell me to do whatever they wanted and that if I didn't do it, they would take me, they would threaten me with, we're going to take you to court. Like, that's not what I signed up for. So I think it was enough of those experiences to say, okay, there, there is some kind of a methodology to, to figuring out like who could be a good fit and who might not be in and really trying to dig in there to avoid the chaos.

You do get to choose who you do business with. And I think, you know, as, as gentlemen of advancing years and having been in this industry for a while, you know, what we have is, is a certain confidence from experience. And for, for filmmakers who are earlier on in the journey, it can be challenging to say no. Because I think that that freelance gene is so embedded in us where it's like, you want to hire me? Awesome. Someone wants to hire me. Great. Yes, yes, yes. No problem, no problem. Rather than, hang on a second, does this, does this business suit my values? And I, and I've been talking a lot about this recently in my, in my community and it's like if you work with the values aligned business.

Yes.

You don't need to worry about anything because if your values are aligned and if you push your marketing and your story and your messaging around a value and finding values, aligned clients and prospects.

You'Ll never have any problems. And when you do have problems, it will be dealt with quietly and efficiently. And, and, and you don't need to worry about the money. This has been one of my biggest realizations in the last probably 24 months, is that I've just gotten rid of non fit clients. I've gotten quite a serious amount of obstacles to come into my business. You know, my own program, you can't just buy it. You know, you have to jump through three or four hoops because I want people who are committed, who are responsive and who take action and take responsibility. And as a result of doing that, I've got just much better opportunities, less opportunities. So I'm not spending as much time working. I mean, I probably work three days a week. And, and it's all because of the values alignment. And I see that with my clients is that the ones that are aligned to value based propositions have, have excellent lives. You know, they spend time with their families, they finish early on a Friday. And that strikes me as something that you, we've never discussed this, but that strikes me as something that you basically just live as well.

Yeah, Yeah, I mean, 100%. I think I had this conversation not too long ago with someone else where we were talking about values. And the part of this that people are probably listening and saying like, oh man, yeah, that sounds great. Of course that's who I want to work with, are people who align with my values. The homework is to say, well, what are your values? Like what are the things that you really truly care about and what are the things that you're not willing to sacrifice? And you know, write stuff out and be very clear and specific. Is like, when I, when I was dating, before I was married, somebody said, listen, you need to like you had, you need to have a good idea of like the kind of person that you want to marry, right? Don't just marry some chick because she's smoking hot. And whatever you like character, you know, think of, think of other things besides smoking hot. Like that can be one of them. And so that's similar to how, you know, I, we, I want to work with clients that fit these things. But the homework you, like, you got to do the homework of saying like, okay, what is, what does that person look like? What do I want to look like? What do I want? My business, my life, you know, what are the things I truly care about? And then transferring that stuff over to say, like, okay, well, I can't expect more out of my clients than I expect out of myself, right? So maybe I need to raise the standards for myself. But then, but then use that as the template for, like, these are the kind of clients that you should be going after. And when, when you're hiring employees, the same thing, same thing applies there. And it just makes it super easy to hire people, and it makes it really easy to let people go. And it's not like this, like, hey, you're out of here because you're a turd. But it's like, hey, something's missing, something's not aligned. And it comes down to like, this core value that we have. Like, what's going on? Like, is there something I can do to support you to get that value back to a spot where you know it is aligned with the mission of this company and the values that I hold? If there's nothing I can do, then it probably makes sense for you to move on. Right. And I want to support you in that. If here is not the best spot for you, you're not able to live out the core values, then let's get you to a place where you are able to live out your own core value. And that approach and that process has made hiring and firing so stinking easy and not painful like it used to be. It's still sad when it's time to do that, but it's more like you get more head nodding up and down from the person that you're having to let go because they get it right.

Yeah, exactly. And it's all about culture, culture within your organization. And I think for a video production company, it's about being clear, as you say, on that culture. And it's confronting. It's confronting to sit down and write down what you actually want from your business and life. And I remember it's Eben pagan. In about 2007, 2008, I studied one of his programs and he was like, hey, do a vision board and write down what you want. And it was terrifying. But following that, I subsequently did it and. And it's now become an integral part of my life because everything I've ever put on a vision board becomes reality. And the more you write down your values and what you want, the more you attract it. And just before we wrap up, one of the things that I've become very clear on as well, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is when someone isn't values aligned or there's a bad fit or cultural. There's a cultural disruption in the relationship.

In the past, I've kind of let it go and try to kind of nurture it back to health.

That hasn't worked. Now I have a Very firm. It's like that phrase, higher, slow, fire fast when I sense a problem. I'm verging on brutal now with my decision making because it can be culturally disruptive to have a bad influence in your training program, in your business. And I now literally get rid of it very, very quickly. Final thoughts on the idea of doing the, doing the difficult jobs as a business owner when things aren't going well.

Yeah, man, that's. I mean, you nailed it right there. Like that. I'm thinking of the first person, well, 15 years ago that I was like, this person. I need to fire this person. Like, they were poison to the culture. I think I had five employees at the time and there were two other employees that this person was infecting. Like half of my staff was being in. So these other two, like finally got around to getting rid of that person. But because I didn't know how to do it, because I was nervous because I, I'm super optimistic, hoping that the person changes and putting off like the firing for way too long. I mean, that impacted and then that, then it happened. Fast forward like four, three or four years after that and it happened again. And I, it was like the same. I was like, oh, man, I don't. But as soon as I, I didn't. We had some core values, but I didn't understand the importance of hiring firing by those. But as soon as we adopted those and, and changed our process for, for hiring firing based around those, it was super easy to confront. As soon as I got a sense that like, something is off here. So let me just ask this employee. Here's our three core values. Rate them, you know, what's your strongest one? What's your weakest one? Okay, the weakest one is probably the same one that I think is their weakest one. So let's talk about that and let's figure out how to get you, you know, back up to like that being a strong one. And that doesn't, that's. That conversation doesn't need to be delayed. Like, that's a. We can talk about this because it's all about supporting you and giving you what's best and what, what might be best might actually not be here. And being open and honest about that from the very beginning, when I hire people, I tell them, here's how I hire people. Here's how I fire people. This is the process. This is, we'll. We'll do, you know, a 30 day performance improvement plan. Like if, if there is kind of a struggle and we all go through hard times and like. And that's fine. Like, totally get it. I want to support you, which might mean that you're not here and. And that's okay for us, and that's okay for you. People are like, yeah, that. That makes the most sense. So knowing what your core values are, not being afraid to address those and those concerns immediately. When you start getting a sense of like. And just asking and some. And they might say, you know what? I don't. I've. Somebody passed away or, you know, I've been dealing with depression or like, whatever. The thing is, it's like, oh, man. Like, well, let me. How can I get you support? Like, what. What can I do? Do you just need some time off? Like, what. What are the things? And if there are things that you can actually do, then do them in support and create a time frame to say, like, okay, in 30 days, like, these are the benchmarks. These are the measurable things, and we're going to talk about those in 30 days. And you know, at that point you can decide. And typically people will self select and just kind of get to a spot where like, you know what, it's just not a good fit anymore. And it's like, sweet. That was the easiest firing I ever had to do. I know.

I love that. On that bombshell, Ryan Corll, thank you very much.

Absolutely. Den, love what you're doing, man. Appreciate you. Thanks for. Thanks for having me on.

You've been listening to the how to Scale a Video Business podcast with me, your host, Dan Lenny. If you're a video business owner who's hit a ceiling and we benefit from mentorship, support, and coaching, then check out how you can work with me over@denleny.com don't forget to subscribe and rate the show over on itunes. And we'd really appreciate you taking a few minutes to leave a review. And don't forget to share if you feel you've gotten value from this episode and you think it would be useful for other filmmakers, you know, then please do me a massive favorite favor and share it on social media and in groups that you might be in. So thanks for listening. See you in the next episode.