Making 6-figures a year from Stock footage. EP #190 - Chuck Fishbein

G' day guys.

It's Dan Lanney here, host of the.

How to Scale a Video Business podcast with this episode 190. Now today I'm switching things up a little bit and got a fantastic interview with chuck fishbean from DuckU.com Now Chuck is a veteran of the video business with over 35 years working as a director of photography, educator and editor. But along with his wife Sarah, owns and operates Crazy Duck Productions, a small video production company with a pretty large footprint in the commercial video industry. Now Chuck is also built a very, very impressive business creating stock footage exclusively for Getty Images. His images have appeared in feature films, commercials, music videos and documentaries worldwide. And I had this phenomenal conversation with Chuck about how he's actually built a very sustainable revenue stream from stock footage. I'm talking six figures plus a year. So I wanted to ask Chuck what it was he was doing that was different and how you can take away some lessons from how to build up a stock footage library and actually create content that people actually want to buy. He revealed some really fascinating insights into why he's been so successful. And it's not what you think it's going to be. So dive into this episode. I hope you really enjoy it. It was a fantastic conversation and there's some quite cool stuff he mentions about Big Band you might have heard of as well. So check this episode out guys.

So Chuck, it's really great to finally get a chance to talk to you. I have been an admirer of your work through the work you've done for Sony for a number of years. But also you post such beautiful work on Facebook with your stock imagery and we got chatting about that journey and so I'd love for you to share a little bit about your background and then we'll get into talking about stock and how that's worked out for you guys.

All right? I started as a photographer. I started in actually in fashion photography assisting a world famous photographer, Richard Avedon at one time and then just moved into my own business. And at one point or in, in the 70s.

I got asked to work with an Irish band where the, the label president said, listen, I'll pay you for these photos, but I want you to shoot the music video as well. And I'm like, okay, you know, and I'd never done that before and I was scared to death. And so I went out and bought a used Super 8 camera and.

A bundle of film and just shot away. And then I let the editors there in Ireland in a place called Windmill Lane, they Just saved my butt. But at the same time, they thought I was the most creative person in the world because my stuff was such trash that it had to be art, you know, so. But once I started doing that, the bug caught me and I nearly went out of business, nearly threw away a successful business to become a filmmaker. And then it took me about three years of just banging my head against the wall until it finally happened.

And then after that, I did again with connections from Ireland. I did four tours with U2 and worked with a host of artists, went around the world with Darth Brooks. I mean, just a lot of different.

Different types of stuff, everything from pharmaceutical launches to camera launches for Sony. So in that. In between all that, I just. To give it a quick background, my wife and I were on vacation in the west of Ireland. And being that, it became my second home. And we were taking pictures of rocks and the ocean and birds and things as you do when you're on vacation. And I said, you know, if. If we were from here and we came back to New York, we'd be shooting our brains out. You know, we would just be photographing everything and filming everything. But we're there. We just take it for granted. And we looked at each other and we're like, duh, we should be doing this. And. And as soon as we got home from vacation, I started doing it. And I. I did it with the only camera that I had, which was a mini DV camera, an early Sony 150 PD150 or something like that. Anyway, just shot and shot and shot. And I used to love to just cruise around the city after a day's work, cruise around the city at night, and I'd mount the camera on the car or just get out and record the sounds and the. And the look of New York. Because I'm passionate about the city. I just love Manhattan.

And we showed some images to. I think after a while, I advanced to an EX1. And at the time we. We had. There was a few.

New stock agency. Shutterstock was very new. There was a few others.

And my wife was looking. My wife Sarah was. Was showing the work to a couple of different people and checking out the scene. And, you know, they were like, Shutterstock was very interested in what we had. And they said, oh, this is good stuff. We'd love to see it. And she just took the initiative to call Getty and say, hey, these people are really interested. I thought you might be interested in seeing this. And they were like, we'd like to meet with you tomorrow.

And, and we went in there and they were just like, we would really like an exclusive on you. You can give all your junk to Pond Five and Shutterstock, but we, we want your good stuff. And, and then it grew from there, you know, better. Better shots, better cameras.

But the one thing I learned was to always be filming what I enjoyed filming, not what I thought people want to see.

Yeah. So when, when was that meeting with Getty?

That was now, nine years ago. And it's been a wonderful relationship. Getty takes a huge chunk of a percentage of your work, but it's worth it if, you know, if you're working with them, it's worth it because they.

Do the work for you. They do the legwork. They're advertising for you. They have.

Researchers who go in there, and if a client is looking for a specific shot, they will go through the work for the client and suggest different things. And they also have lawyers that if you have somebody, you know, you've heard of errors and omissions, insurance, well, they have, you know, we. They have lawyers that will cover you and figure it out. You know, we had a. A photo once of a construction site, and it was beautiful. The steamrollers, you know, putting down the pavement in the hot waves. Coming up on all the yellow construction gear. And the. It was used in an Obama ad for President Obama. And the construction company was a staunch Republican. So he just. There's just no way my picture is going to go in this, you know, in this ad. But the lawyers took care of that. They're like, nope, can't do that, Jack. You know, but anywhere else you could have, you could have. Whether they had the grounds or not, you could have been faced with.

A.

Fortune worth of litigation just to prove yourself innocent.

Yeah. So a lot of filmmakers dream of shooting stock, and they often see it as a, hey, I'll just buy biggest resolution camera I can get. For a while, it was like, I'm going to buy a red so I can go and shoot stock. And the justification for buying a brand was to go shoot stock. And I know literally hundreds of filmmakers who have tried to shoot stock, throw it up to somewhere like Getty, and never make a cent. So why do you think it is that you've been so successful shooting stock where so many fail?

Well, I've heard the same thing as well. I mean, I have lots of friends through, through Sony and just through the industry who, who every time we meet, they're like, oh, you know, they're shooting great shows, they're shooting reality shows. And they're, they're, they're doing exploration shows for the BBC or cnn and they go, I got all this stuff. And I'm like, well, you should, you should sell the stock. You know, do you. Is it yours? In some cases it is yours to use. But if you've worked for a client, with a client that has a work for hire, well, the stuff belongs to them.

But if, but I've been working for myself now for 35 years, so everything that I, you know, I make that arrangement that any work that we do, the rights belong to us. I mean, certainly when it comes to a, you know, just to digress a bit, when it comes to a client's work, if we're shooting interviews or things like that, I'm not going to use that anywhere. They can have it all, you know, it's theirs, take it. But, you know, when it comes to the B roll, that's where the value is, is in the B roll. And so now just go ahead.

No, just. It sounds like what you've done very early on is recognize that, that the B roll is, is an asset you can then use again. And that's really smart because most of us who grew up as freelance cameramen just assumed that the client's hiring you, then they own the footage. But you've been very smart, I guess, which is a layover from your work as a photographer, about owning the rights. And what a smart move all those years ago to say, any project we shoot, you'll have a license to use, but we own the rights. And I don't imagine many people have done that.

That is something we state right at the beginning. And most folks, they're happy with that. We're not giving them any restriction on their footage other than taking what we've created and repurposing it for another project. Then we want them to pay us again, because now it's a new project. We work most of our productions by the project not, you know, but referring to something that you, you said in your book. Most of our clients are our relations. We've been working with them for years and we've been working with them almost word of mouth. Because when you do good work and you have a good client relationship and you're there to bail them out when you need it, and you're not nickel and diming them every time they need an extra in the old days, an extra dub or they need a transfer, whatever.

You have friends, you know, and they, they're working with you, they're just as happy to Help you as you are to help them. And when I go on an assignment.

I go there with the intention of doing it. Doing the project for my client, I make sure I get what I need. But it doesn't hurt to also, hey, turn the camera this way if I have five minutes or that way.

And enjoy myself. I. I'm in this business because I enjoy it. I love looking through the camera.

I. I enjoy the gear as much as creating it. In fact, sometimes my motivation for, for creating is, I better pay for this stuff. Now that I. Now that I bought it, I better. I better make money with it. So.

But I really enjoy it. So it's not painful to go out and shoot stock. But having said that, here comes the rub. Once you do that, once you've created all this imagery, you have to catalog it and you have to.

Break it down and make it usable. When I say usable, it's got to be stock that people want or that doesn't already exist. If I'm heading for north of the Arctic Circle and I've done that on a project or two, I'll go and look at what already exists in stock. And I'm not going to shoot that again. I may shoot it for my project because it's just a classic shot, you know, but I'll say, like, but, you know, nobody's done this or nobody's done that. Central park in New York is, you know, big gigantic park. And you would just think that because it's New York City and because there's so many cinematographers here, that it was covered to death. You know, like, why would you bother shooting there? And I looked and I had a lot of images in Central park, and. And I looked it up and There was about 14 in Giddy, and they were really dated. So Sarah, my wife, and I, we went out there. We've gone out there in the summer, in the snow, in the. In. In any kind of weather. We repeat shots. We purposely do shots from exactly the same position so that we can sell a transition from. And I'll get into this more when, When I say that, you know, there's no secrets here. The secret is doing it. There are no secrets in your book.

It's all common sense. But if you don't do it, if you go like, yeah, that makes sense. That's a good thing to do, and you don't do it, then it's not going to get done. And you could say, well, that wasn't a very good book.

But you have to do it. Getting back to my Point. Let's say you film your image. You then have to catalog it in your own drive, in your own system. And then when you submit it to Getty or any of the stock agencies, you have to keyword it. And you have to keyword it in ways that make sense so that people who are looking for your shot will find it. And you have to think more than this is a pretty shot of a tree. You have to look at a shot of a tree and say, what else could this represent? You could say, this tree all by itself says isolation. This tree says depression. This tree says solitude. It says strength. These.

You know, it's a metaphor for maybe 50 different things. And when people come into stock agencies looking for something, they'll say, I'm looking for a warm squeezy feeling or something. They'll talk in those terms. So you have to, you have to not only put it in the logical language, but you also have to put it in the language that other people might be using. Like an emotive language.

Well, that's right, isn't it? You're very much. You've got to put yourself in the viewer and the consumer's position to understand what it is they're looking to try and illustrate. And it sounds a lot like you have a very distilled process for shooting stock. And I think where a lot of filmmakers perhaps listening to the show might be missing a beat is they're going out and shooting a pretty image. I love what you said there about researching what already exists and coming up with different ways to shoot that or going back to exactly the same position to allow for transition. Really, really smart things. Tell me, do you ever get, do, do. Does Getty ever say to you, hey, Chuck, we need some footage of Central park on a stormy day at 4 in the afternoon. Can you go on? Could they ever commission you to do stuff?

They have, they have done that on a few occasions, but they have some stringers that have been working closer with them, to be honest, if for the, for a longer time. And they, they tend to use, you know, some, some more immediate shooters. I'm. My collection is one of the largest of New York City with Getty. We have close to 10,000 clips online with them.

But it's, it's, you know, I've had other stock agencies contact me and say, could you go do that? But not so much Getty.

And, and, and in terms of like, revenues, you don't feel like you have to divulge specific numbers, but how long did it take to start Seeing an income that was predictable. I mean, is that kind of like a royalty thing now where you. You get checks every month or certain shots that get used again and again? How does that old side of things work?

It took. It took a while to. To build that up. It took about. For us, about three, four years and. But we started even with.

Let me back up here for a second. At first it was better than it was, so we've had to work harder. Let me explain that as pond5 and shutterstock and all these other companies grew and they have millions of photos and they take anything from a cell phone pictures to pixel vision toy cameras, I mean, they'll just throw anything on their site. And they don't always work with you. You. You may end up at the back of the line with your images because they just keep throwing more content on more content. And often I found with. With them that.

They. They don't always. They only update you if you're selling. So if you're the hot shot, you know, there's like, there's a couple of shots of like Times Square with all of the logos blurred out, so there's no trademark issues. It's an awful shot because everything's just blurred out. But it's been used in a thousand documentaries already. And you know, there's another one of people walking down like Fifth Avenue to pick Telephoto shop. And I'll get to that moment because there's trademarks and royalties and things.

But I totally lost my train of thought when you, when you.

The question was around how. How you generate the income.

I'm sorry, let me just back up where my thought was. But because of this, they. Shutterstock has cut their fees and now you. They. They're on a quantity basis, so that you have. It used to be like you got 50, 50 or 60, 40. You got the 40.

And now they've cut it. So they have so many people and they're. They want to make more money that now you only start at like 18%. And if you sell a whole lot, you go into another tier and make more. But in general, with Getty, it takes a while to grow.

But it wasn't that long. But it was supplying imagery in the way that it needed, that people needed to see it. And I'll get into that in a moment. As far as fees, we've made in excess of 100,000 a year in stock. And it's fairly consistent. It's making money while you sleep, which is always good. And it's not like that you know, some. Some months it could be 3,000, could be 8,000, could be 10,000, depending on what we've sold and how it's being used, because there's different kinds of stock and you have to consider that. And I'll get into that next. I think that's important to. For shooters to know. And so, yes, it's been problem. I'm proud of it. You know, we're in the business to, to make money and. But I'm also in it in a position where I'm in it to enjoy what I'm doing and have fun. So.

This gets back to the systems part. You know, it isn't always fun to sit there and knock out all that key, you know, framing and that key keywording and logging the stuff and uploading it. It's like an endless process sometimes. But I set time aside for that. I've made it, tried to make it into a fun event for myself.

As I suggested. Occasionally I'll sit there with a glass of wine and some good music and just have fun with it, appreciating my own work, looking at my work at the same time that I'm uploading it. I'm evaluating what I've done. I'm comparing it to work that I've done in the past. I'm feeling good about it, or not feeling good about it and saying, oh, this is a weak entry, you know, and sometimes I just toss it and say, this. This doesn't even deserve to be uploaded. You know, I'm not looking to put up trash.

And.

One of the things that I like to do is to shoot clips in a bundle because I want my work to be used in documentaries, I want my work to be used in commercials, and I want it to be used in feature films. And it does get used there. So in order to do that, I have to shoot in codecs with cameras or with cameras that have codecs that are worthy of that, that it's a deep enough file. I'm not shooting with a GoPro. I'm not shooting with my phone. I'm not shooting with my A7s. It's a beautiful camera and does amazing things, but I'll be shooting with a F55 or even the FS7 will give me beautiful imagery. And this new FX6 is just killing it and it's lightweight and I love that.

So it's important to. To, you know, of course, I've been a Sony shooter for years, but, you know, there's red cameras that are fabulous area. We're not, I can't even afford. But all these years of shooting. But, but you know, I'm looking for portability and quality at the same time. But my point was when I shoot, if I want my work to be viewed by these types of organizations, these types of productions, I have to shoot like a cinematographer, you know, when I'm out there as if I'm making the movie. So if I'm shooting the corner of 59th street in Columbus Circle in Manhattan, 59th and. And 8th Avenue.

I'll, I'll do my master establishing shot. I'll do it in several variations. I may do it in slow mo, I may do it in regular speed. And then I'll shoot cutaways the same way you would need cutaways, you know, close ups of a sign, close ups of a pedestrian's feet walking across the crosswalk, the wheels of a car going by. The same way I would, I would hose a scene if I was, if I was filming it for a commercial. I'd want to get all those cutaways and close ups. So I have stuff to work with in the edit. I don't want to go back and say, oh, this is a great shot. Now can we go back into the stock agency and see if we can find a close up of a, of a tire spinning or a taxi sign? I want to be the one to supply that. And so I do that. I shoot in that way, I shoot in that vein and I think that way when I shoot.

So you're actually making it easier for a consumer of stock who's sitting in a production company in London or Sydney or Hong Kong to go, I'm in. It's like looking at a set of rushes. So that's a really smart tip. And another question I have is.

Presumably you don't grade the footage because do you shoot everything in log and supply it in log? Is that, is that the way that the, the likes things?

I have to, I have to supply everything in Prores hq. That's, that's their normal. You don't, you don't supply stuff in raw. You don't supply stuff in log. I've had them come back and say, do you have the original log footage of this? We prefer to color from the, from the log footage. And, and I, and I do. And I have three copies of, of everything in different locations. Because the oldest, you know, cliche is it's not when will your drives go? You know, it's no if they will go, it's when. So you do have to Back up your stuff because it's your income. It's my income. It's also my clients, you know, my clients work are on the same drive. So.

In terms of a grade and a look, because with luts and color grading being so subjective, there are so many ways in which you could grade a file. What have you found to be the most consistent, easiest to get through Getty? Is it just a simple rec 709 base correction or how do you tend to give it a look?

Pretty much. You know, I worked with several musicians, famous bass players and.

One guy, T.M. stevens.

Amazing bass player. And he said, you know, because he does all this slap face and stuff. And I said, what do you do when you go into the studio? He says, I make my sound as neutral as possible because I don't want to overpower anything. I don't want to persuade the way the song is going to be. I want them to tell, you know, I want to get the feel for what's happening. So I, I make my imagery as neutral as possible. I do grade it. I grade it so that it's properly exposed. It's not overly, you know, there have been times that I have to buy stock for projects, just stuff that I need and the garbage that I have to shovel through to get it. And you're finding, you know, crushed blacks and saturated and over sharpened images and things? No, I have to give them stuff that they can say, all right, this is the look of our film. Can we take this image and match it and make it fit in our film? Because if it's so specialized, it's useless to them, you know, so I'm not out there unless, unless I have an attire. You know, once or twice I've put out a series of images that had a certain look like an old time look. And I, I've done a. About to release a series of all time black and white imagery of New York City. It just was just going back through my own catalog, finding things that work well in black and white and not just draining out the color, but making them look like old black and white. You know, making the proper gamma and the right kind of contrast to make it look like it was shot in the 50s or 60s in black and white. And it has a really cool look to it and somebody who's looking for that, here's a whole set for them.

So that's when I do a specialty. But otherwise I make it as neutral and as moldable as possible.

And in terms of resolutions, obviously technology is always evolving and now we're looking at 8k and 12k and you know, we're both from a generation where we were standard definition South Dakota and into 16, 9 and then into HD and that HD transition. Remember when HD first came in, people going, ah, there's no point in shooting HD. Presumably you've shot in many formats over the last 10 years. At what point did you start to Deliver everything in 4K? And is there any call to go into higher resolutions or is 4K still a very salable.

Resolution?

As soon as 4K came out, we began to shoot everything in 4K. That was it. There was no turning back. Same thing happened when HD came in. As soon as it came in. Even though people, some of the studios, some of the broadcast companies.

Stations we were sending work to, they didn't have HD yet and some still don't. I mean some websites still work on st.

But I shoot in the best resolution possible. You know the old, another adage, you know, garbage in, garbage out. You want it to. Whether it's going to end up on a phone being seen or, or on a big screen. I want the best image I can. I have not had call for 8k. I have yet. I've only done 4 projects that were actually released in 4k as far as using my stock.

But it's there, it's there. I have not had a call for 8k so I hope not for a while. I think 4k I'll be able to, to use that for quite some time.

Do Getty tell you where your stuff ends up or is that a bit of a kind of. You happen upon it.

What's the most unusual film you've had stock in?

For example, we, we.

It shows, we get a monthly readout of what the, where the image was used, who bought it and what it was, what it was used for.

Sometimes, not all the time, you know, but we'll, we'll see that, oh, this was bought by CBS or this was bought by X production company.

If it was. I had a bunch of images of my daughter that I shot and she was just sort of lounging in a tree, she loves to climb trees. And she was there with a very sullen face just staring at the camera.

And I posted these and, and again we used, you know, alone. We used divorce, we used depression, we used adhd, we used all these other keywords that, that could relate to this type of image. And a pharmaceutical company picked it up and they had a sign her up with a temporary SAG AFTRA release and she still gets checks. It's it's wonderful. It was a very high paying, high paying gig. Do I. Was there anything really unique? You know?

No. I mean it's, our stuff has been used in shows from Law and Order to, to, you know, a dozen independent films and, and lots and lots of commercials.

Is there any image or sequence that has really, you know, you know, the 8020 principle where often, you know, 80% of the money will come from 20% of the stock. Is, is there any particular shots or a footage or series that have just been used more than, than anything else.

That's the strangest thing. I mean I tend to shoot a lot of. I love the sun rising over Manhattan from the Jersey side of the Hudson river. And I like Moon rises over Manhattan. I've been chasing the moon over Manhattan for, for 10 years.

And it's, it's fun.

And those, those shots tend to sell well, but that's not that they're not our best sellers. It, you never know what's going to sell. We've sold pictures of windmill wind generators, a boardwalk at an amusement park. It's all over the place. It's never like, okay, I'm going to really invest in shooting sunrises because they're the, they're the, you know, the winning thing. No. And as soon as you do that, then pictures of kids holding balloons.

Suddenly the big seller. Or tugboats Last, last year or two years ago.

A news agency in Paris, I forgot their name. Al Jazeera.

Is it?

Al Jazeera.

Bought 40 images of boats around Manhattan. Tugboats, police boats, oil tankers. You know it. You never know. You never know. But, but I do want to say the things that will sell better than others. There's two different kinds of stock. There's, there's editorial stock. Well, it's actually several, but there's editorial stock and there's advertising stock or commercial stock.

Obviously if you're going to do something for a commercial, just as in a photograph, you have to have the rights. If you have people in that photo, you have to have their permission or else you'll get your buttsuit off and, or your clients just won't use it without permission. When you're using something for a documentary and you have a crowd of people.

You'Ll get away with it. But if you single out one person, you may need a release from them. Same thing with buildings in Manhattan. You've all seen the New York skyline.

But if you focus in on the Empire State Building or the Chrysler Building or one of many buildings in the city, they're Trademarked, and you have to get their permission to use them. So you have to have. You have to have, like, three or four buildings in an image.

So that you're not saying. I'm, you know, because. Because you don't want to say, like, if you. If you're doing something for.

Anoden or Excedrin or some Tylenol and you're showing the Empire State Building in the background, they're going to say, like, no, no, we're not endorsing Tylenol. You know, you have to pay us to endorse this because you're using our image to endorse this. So if you use, like, five buildings, then you're saying the city as a skyline, and. And you're not asking any one of those buildings the same thing with a crowd of people. Obviously, if you have, you know, 500 people at a rally, you know, or a concert, all doing this, you know, but you try to get the backs of their heads for the most part, because that will allow you to get by without a release. Now, having said that, getting release is not that.

Difficult. Most people will say, fine.

But even if you've, like, one of the things we do when there's, like, if I have a house or a building that's accessible to me, accessible meaning I have permission from the owner to use it, or it's someplace where I know it really is not going to matter, I may shoot a scene in several different times of the year.

And. And this is a very popular thing that a lot of people don't realize can be profitable. They, like, let's say it's a farm on a country road and you've done a beautiful shot of it. So revisit it in the winter when it's covered in snow, revisited in the spring, revisited in the fall, try to put your tripod in nearly the same place or come back with a drawing or an image that you can load into your viewfinder. Some cameras, you can do that and shoot it, because then a film or a television station or sitcom can use it as an establishing shot. A passage of time.

Time lapse does this as well. You know, it's like the sun going down, the sun going up. This is very popular.

Pictures of stars. Gosh, everybody has done pictures of stars. You know, at first it was a knockout. And you said, like, wow, look at those constellations. Now there's 60 billion shots of constellations, 60 billion shots of drones.

You know, it's what you do with it, whether you're just using your drone, the Big wide shot. A few years back, Phil Bloom did some amazing shots, I think as part of his wonder quest or wonder lust or whatever it was. And he followed some, some kid down a long Runway out into the water. And it was so well done, so tasteful. Again, you got to look at. You got to create. You got. You got to make stuff that is mouth watering and you go like, wow, look at that. That's a knockout. You know, but then you have to have stuff that'll also work with it so you can make a complete, you know, because if you're the organization that's buying your footage doesn't, you know, isn't as good as you, you know, they're going to need a series of things because otherwise you're going to have this one beautiful shot and then you're going to go back to their track.

Well, this is fascinating. I'm sure we could talk for hours. If anyone wants to find out a bit more about you. Where can they learn more about you? And. And then wanted to.

My website is ducku.com d u c k y o u.

We.

That name was given at. BeckyU was given. Given to us by Larry Mullen of YouTube.

He was actually crazy. Duck was. But that's a whole other story. But that's that we can see some of my work there.

And it's a pretty cool story to end on that. Larry Mullen from YouTube named your company. I'm sure there's a whole other story with YouTube or maybe save that for another time.

Yeah, you want to. Yeah, we have to censor that one.

Yeah, exactly. Chuck, thank you so much. It's been fascinating hearing your insights. Thanks for being so gracious with your time.

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