No serious business owner would ever use TikTok to market their business... or would they? EP #287 - Stephen Pope

G', day, my videographer friends. Now, we spoke last week about creating content and how creating content can make you an authority and attract people to want to do business with you rather than chasing them to try and engage them in some kind of conversation to do business. But creating content at scale takes some systems. And my guest today, Stephen G. Pope, who has amassed an enormous following on TikTok and is using content across all social media platforms, has built this technology, a system that he's going to share with you today how it works and how it is able to take one piece of content and distribute it across different platforms. We also go into what that looks like in terms of a process, and there are four stages. And then what kind of size team do you need to be able to pull this off? Now, I know you might be thinking, but then, you know, I don't want to be building a team for, for creating content, but I want you to think about this. And once you run out of friends, family, and anyone foolish enough to get close to you, to sell to, you've got to go out to a cold audience. And there's two or three ways you can do that. One is running ads, two is going to networking events, and three is to make content. In an ideal world, some of some, all of that can be achieved with creating content. So dig into this episode. Stephen is an absolute authority. I think you'll find a ton of value in this. Enjoy.

Welcome to the Video Business Accelerator Podcast. Each week we uncover the secrets to creating a wildly successful and scalable video production business. With your host, Dan Lenny, discover how the accelerator program is transforming the lives of our members at www.videobusinessaccelerator.com. enjoy this episode.

Stephen, thanks for coming back. And, and, and we just split this, this conversation up because I want to move from the conversation we had last week about creating content and some of the ideas behind that to doing it at scale. How do you take. Because it's very labor intensive, or it can be labor intensive to create content and start posting at different platforms. And you mentioned last week about the difference between a networking platform like LinkedIn and maybe a scale platform like TikTok. And I suppose TikTok is a good place to start before we just get into the mechanics of how you, as an engineer, have created a system for how to deliver this kind of content. But until I met you, I was like, you know, TikTok Schmidt mock. You know, it's like, it's, it's for the kids. And I think that's something that.

Maybe a lot of people think of.

Yeah, for sure.

Tell me about your journey with TikTok and why. Why that platform and what you see the value to be.

Yeah. So even, like, last. In the last. Last week, when we were talking, I mentioned how I had seen Gary Vee and he was the prompt to get me on video in the first place. And then I heard this rumbling of TikTok, and then I was like, oh, yeah, okay, that's a new platform. And then Gary Vee was like, you should get on there. And I was like, well, I listened to him the last time, and it worked. And then here's another thing, is that when I first got onto LinkedIn, that was my first platform.

I had seen a bunch of people that had been there for, like, years, and solely because of that, they had built big audiences and were monetizing them. And so I was like. And just. You're always kind of, you know, just like, man, I wish I had done that right. So I saw that opportunity on Facebook or on TikTok, and then there were times, like, it was like, 2020. I was just like, scanning it.

And I was like, oh, wait, if I'm like, I'm like, my customer. Like, if I'm here, they're here. Maybe, like, maybe I'm early, but they're here, too. And so if it's just content and it's just my video showing up, if I'm saying something relevant to them, like, it doesn't matter, like, whether they came there to see whatever they came to see. Like, it's now me, and I'm saying something that's relevant to them, and I call them out. I'm like, hey, are you. Are you this. Are you this? Do you want to do this right. Right out of the gate? So I'm not like, hey, hey, I'm Stephen Pope. Let me tell you a little story. Like, I just. You call the person out. So, like, when they're flipping through. So that was my. That was me. I was just like. And I was like, hey. And I've been doing a bunch of video on LinkedIn. I think I could probably be pretty good at this. So I jumped on there, and it was just, like, one of the best decisions I ever made, because it's like, that's my primary lead source at this point. All, like, mature business owners. Like, I don't have any kids as clients.

Yeah, I think that's the thing that's. That's. That's enlightening for me, is it may have started as kids doing Crazy dances. But it's evolved and we think back to YouTube 10 years ago. It was, you know, we used to kind of sniffle at it and say, oh, it's, you know, so people put funny cat videos now. It's. It's my main source of entertainment and education. I want to learn anything. I don't even Google stuff anymore. I go straight to YouTube. So I think that that point about, you know, trusting sources that have been reliable in the past, like, we've both been fans of Gary Vee and we've taken on his advice and it's worked and getting in early. Are we still in the early stages of TikTok in your.

I think so, yeah. And here's the other thing about TikTok that people don't understand as well is that most of these other platforms are social graphs. So it's based off of who you're connected to. And so, like, if you have more followers on Instagram, you get more views. Same with LinkedIn. TikTok is an interest graph. So the algorithm is based off of what you find interesting. So as it learns what you like to look at, it's looking for content to feed it to you. And you could. So if you happen to jump on the platform and create something that's interesting to enough people, it'll just. You could have three followers and it would show it to a million people. I mean, it's. It had to have, like, they had to have watched it, but it will scale it out that way. So they'll show it to ten people, then a hundred, then a thousand, then ten thousand. So that's the way their algorithm works. So, yeah, I think it's early and I think it will be like that for a long time because that's their competitive advantage, right? They're the place you go to to have instant growth.

And now you see all the other platforms trying to copy them. So I don't really have any doubt that it'll. I think it will be like. I think the competition for the good. This is where it's interesting, right? The competition for creating good content will go up there, right? But it won't. I don't think it will always. I think they'll continue to base it off of how good the content is. So it's more of a race of who's going to be the best creator versus who's going to amass the biggest following.

And, you know, one of the, I guess.

Just from my own perspective is looking at TikTok and thinking, well, I can take a Piece of content. I can write a piece of content very quickly on LinkedIn or I can record a video, upload it, write a few words, and it's done. With TikTok, I'm seeing, you know, I mean, it's all nine by 16.

So it's all vertical. But I see these graphics and emojis. Is, is that something that you have to do on TikTok? Is that, is that something that. Why, why do people do that? What, what is, is it, is it as a, is a stylistic thing?

Well, it does, it does help. So like, these are all like. I, I, what I like to tell people is like, if you try to achieve all that in the beginning, it can be overwhelming. So I just, those are all micro improvements that you can make, right? So if you get, if you just get on camera and go right, there are a lot of tools that will make that stuff easier and the more little things that are popping up and keeping people's interest, you know, it's probably going algorithmically, it probably will help, but the main currency is still the good content, right? So I think people have to keep a perspective. It's like what's going to get you the biggest bang for the buck at your current level? It's not going to be all the emojis and stuff. Like you put a bunch of emojis on like a bunch, like a really bad video, it's not going to help it, you know, so you have to just, you have to have the sense and the awareness to like prioritize what you need to do. And if you've never made a video, well, you got to make a good video first. And then if you get good at that, then you can sprinkle in all that stuff because you've probably seen like, like somebody where it's like a real, like they're really awkward on camera, but like all the bells and whistles are there and it, it's almost kind of like, wait a minute, this something.

Well, is that you can't polish a turd, right? Yes.

Something's not quite right here. Like the, the video quality is off the charts, but like this person can't like say a word yet. So like prior, it's just priorities.

And how do you, as someone like, who's just starting out, I mean, I, I'm pretty comfortable just getting on camera and, and talking and uploading. How do you, how do you get discovered on Tick Tock? How does, how does your content on this, the topic that you're specializing in, get in front of the Right. Audience. Is, is it a question of hashtags? Do you, how do you, how do you get that content in front of people? Or is it, is it analyzing the content and kind of transcribing it and then pushing it out to, to the audience?

It's more about like who ends up watching it. Right. And so how do you get the right person to watch it? Like you, you call them out, right? So it's like, are you a plumber?

Well, like plumbers are going to stop for at least the second.

Yeah.

Are you a consultant? Are you a, are you a six figure consultant? Are you a seven figure consultant? You know, so like you just target it, right. With your words and like the watch time is going to be. Their algorithm is good enough. It's going to start to like, it's going to, they, I, I'm. Their algorithm's going to put you in a pool, you know, and like start to learn how to do that. So it's literally just calling these people out. I mean there's probably like hashtags and other things, but I think those are like secondary. So like if you, you asked me if I'm starting out, starting out, priority call the person out, who are you talking to? Do you want to make a million dollars? Do you want to make $10 million? If you make $10 million. And I said, do you want to make a million? If you already make a million, you're not going to watch because you're like, I already do that. Right?

Yeah. Right, Right, interesting. So now let's move on to, you know, so now we've got a bit of an insight to TikTok. Most of us, I think, understand how LinkedIn works, but what impressed me is, is how omnipresent you are.

Across all channels and, and you were sharing with me how you do that. I wonder if you might talk a little bit about. And I guess it's where your engineering and backgrounds and how do you, how do you build this to work at scale without employing 10 people?

Yeah. And so mentally you want to, you want to break it down by the creation process.

The repurposing process and the distribution process and then your team. So there's like four things and regardless of you're using technology, you want to optimize those four things regardless. Right. Like with systems and frameworks, even if you're doing it on a piece of paper, like at each one of those phases, you want to have it dialed in. Uh, so if I go on a podcast or. Cause you want to make the content Creation process easy. You want to, you want to be able to record easily and you want that content to be positioned in such a way that it can be repurposed very easily. So sometimes people start, start a podcast and they find themselves not talking a lot. Well, that's not going to make it easy for you to make clips from it. So number one, just theoretically and like practically, the recording process has to be simple and thoughtful. And like, I'm sure you're the same, I think you even showed it to me. But I just hit one button and the whole thing pops on. Right. So little things like that. Yeah. And then what happens as I start to step through this, if I start to then layer on the engineering technology part, is that right after the creation process is done, it's recorded. Like you want to start to be able to keep everything really tightly organized. And so for me, the way I did that is that as soon as I have any kind of recording, whether it's a video or a collection of videos, like a folder of videos, I drop it into Google Drive and my system pulls that in immediately, gives it an id, it creates all the folders and the structure around that.

And then essentially it's a row in a database. The database happens to be airtable. So right out of the gate right now I'm like, I just finished recording and now I have a way to now facilitate the organization of whatever's going to happen. And there's a bunch of things that will happen. But like now I'm just in the best place possible. Whereas like a lot of people, because here's what happens if you don't do that.

You'Re either going to do all that manually and most people will just give up on that at some point. They'll get lazy.

And so then all the other processes down the line start to break down.

Or you do that, but you just don't have it quite as systematized. So you can't do all the really cool things in that same process. All I'll grab the metadata around the video, like width and height and all those things, which I can do more interesting things with. But that's the beginning of the creation process. And then whether or not you have questions here, I can kind of just continue to go down that. Those other four kind of pillars of the content creation process.

Yeah, I mean, I think this is interesting because, you know, for filmmakers who are watching this or listening to this, they, they're used to creating content and they've got certain post production workflows for the client work they do. I've seen it's really helpful to understand the steps that you're implementing to be omnipresent.

Yeah, And I've seen those too. Like, I'm connected with several videographers and photographers solely because they showed me, like, they're like, here's what you do. And they create all these folders, and I'm like, that's what I do. But I do it automatically.

I. Yeah.

So, so then. Then the next piece is like, okay, so now that it's categorized, now we go into repurposing. So where a lot of people go wrong is that because they don't have it systemized, because when they created the content, they didn't really think about how is this going to get repurposed. It's like, every time the. The next video comes, it's like, okay, now what do we do with it? And so they're always reinventing the wheel. And so what ends up happening is they have this big.

They.

Sometimes people can realize, I've got 40 videos that I've never done anything with. And that's what happens. Right? Because you never had a system to like, okay, what are we literally going to do with this? Because as soon as a video comes in, you want to attack it and get it done and get it out the door, or you just develop this backlog that never gets touched. So I developed this concept of a playbook, which is, with this type of content, if it's a podcast, what are all the things that need to get done? Like, in. In. In great detail? Like, okay, I'm gonna send it to my newsletter. I'm gonna publish it to YouTube.

I mean, when I say it out loud, it sounds very simple, but, like, just making sure that you're outlining these things. And then, like, so, for instance, like, if I do a YouTube video, I'll turn it into a square for LinkedIn, because LinkedIn is a square platform. So I've got a guideline that tells my video editor what to do. And he's got to, like, he's got to think a little bit when he does that. Right. Because something might be off on the side. Yeah, right. So it's articulating in great detail what needs to happen. It's like a playbook. Right? Like this happened. Now let's run the play on this and execute all of these as tasks and what are in granular detail, what needs to happen. And so my system will create, essentially will create all those tasks from that and will give places for people to Put this content when it's ready. So it's creating the little container and telling somebody exactly where to put the video. And the. So like, my video editor doesn't have to think. He's like, oh, I need that square video, and when I'm done with it, I'm going to drop it right here. And that's.

And it removes the ambiguity. So in this, for anyone who's watching this when it's on YouTube, we're recording this in a 16 by 9 frame, side by side to turn this into a square. There's a number of ways you can do that. And what you don't want to do is have an editor say, well, I'll do it the way I think I would do it. You want to have a system that says, this is how we do things around here. So you've got that consistency. Yeah.

And like, the ambiguity is the biggest thing. Right. Because.

You don't. Like, the ambiguity is a rock in your shoe. This is the best way I can put it. And you're not going to go hiking if you have a rock in your shoe. So if you want to have a tight process where your podcast is going out every week and then a bunch of things happen in between that you can't have like a thousand rocks in your shoe. So the ambiguity is a deal breaker in your flow because people are just going to get annoyed. Like, you're going to email your editor and you're going to be like, hey, you were supposed to put it in this folder. And he'll be like, you didn't tell me that. And you'll be like, yeah, I did. I told you that. Yeah. And then he's getting annoyed at you because you're kind of just being annoying. Like, you may. Maybe you did tell him that. But, like, it's not reasonable to think that people are going to perform in this, like, high performance workflow if it's not a high performing workflow. Right. So I've been in that process with my video editor a million times where I was like, dude, I told you, like, you're supposed to do it like this. And so instead of getting mad at him, I was like, well, I'm just gonna design this so that never happens again and make it so dead simple for him that he actually enjoys working with me.

Because if you have a good editor, you don't want to lose them because you're trying to scale to like the moon, Right?

That's right.

It's your job. Not only you want a bunch of content, but you also want people to enjoy working with you. So it's like, it's like optimizing this flow is like how you're actually going to achieve that level of scale without going mad yourself and without pissing everybody off on your team.

And in every engagement situation with a team member, when there's a problem of which there are always countless, you blame the system, not the person. Because as the business owner and the extreme ownership, embracing that notion that it's all on us is that we haven't, you know, sometimes what we say is not what people hear, right? And what a system does is it articulates an instructional format. This is how it's done. And here's the example of what done looks like. And it makes it much easier for everyone because no one has to do any thinking. And the brain is lazy. The brain doesn't want to try and figure out how to make something work. The brain wants to go, I do step one and then step two and then step three and four and five and then that's it done, move on to the next one. So, so that's the, the, the part where you're, you know, creating all the different formats and then I'm guessing it then allows the editor to put them in certain places and then I'm guessing the final stage is the distribution part. How does that look?

Yeah, so there's the distribution part, but one cool thing about the repurposing is that, so there's a couple of added benefits to the organization is that number one, as a video comes in, I automatically transcribe it. So like if I do a TikTok video, it transcribes it puts it into a document which then a copywriter can go through and create a text post out of it. And then that can also take that text post and inject it into a template that creates like those really cool looking carousels.

So I get two added. Now, besides just hyper organization and making people's life easier, I just created two assets that didn't exist before that now are going to go out on LinkedIn pretty much without me having to think too much about it. And then because I'm super organized, everything is like in this. So if you imagine in this system, everything is linked. The image, the file, the media, the image. I have metadata around these things. I know what piece is done or not done.

I have published dates, I have titles. So when we move into this next phase, which is distribution, in that repurposing phase, when I applied a playbook, part of that playbook is also. Where does this go? And so the system also keeps track of channels and brands. So I know like down to like the very. Like there's the den LinkedIn page, but then you might have a company page. And so all of these playbooks are literally pushing content to these places. And so now either whether it's somebody manually posting it because the platform requires that, or integrating with. I have this. There's a platform called AirShare, which is basically a buffer.com for people like me, developers. And so I can just literally from Airtable, I can just push the content. I either make it really easy for someone to publish manually because they have to, or I can just push it straight through on the.

Through one of those automated platforms and just publish the content and nobody had to really think about it.

And then I'm also able to pull the analytics back down. And because I have all this data around this stuff, I can then start to compare the content and I can also do reporting on like how well is the machine actually functioning, how much content is literally going out the door. And if it's not hitting the standard that I want, I can reverse engineer it because I have the data to say.

Is the copywriting taking too long? Is the video editing taking too long? So it gives me the ability to just literally.

Refine the machine. Because a machine, sometimes things are going in too fast. Some things are. It's not as simple as you might think.

No. In terms of, I mean, team size, what would you say is the, the minimum size team? And, and what are those roles you mentioned copywriter and editor too? Because, because your, your system.

And, and I've seen it. So I know it's, it's very involved and does a lot of automation within it, but you still need the, the end, you know, the driver to, to steer.

I call it manning the machine. Somebody has to like go. Yeah, somebody has to man it. So, so what my team looks like at this point is there's me, obviously I do most of the recordings. Yeah, I call that the subject matter expert.

And then you're going to need someone that can man the machine and that just essentially is like just checking in on it every day. Like what content is out there, what needs an image, what needs copywriting, checking in with those team members. And the machine also facilitates a lot of that communication through Slack. Like it just tells people what, what's outstanding. Somebody still needs to pay a little of attention to that though. Um, so you're going to need someone to do that. That's not Really a that full time job that. But it's just a thoughtful like it's a daily commitment. It's a daily commitment. A 10 to 15 minute check in on the machine and then just putting out the, the notices and just checking in with people. Um, and then I, I just hired on somebody and I define this role. I call it content operations and this is somebody that I hired. I happened to hire this person from the Philippines and they are going to be working full time, 40 hours a week just pumping out videos for the most part on a tool called Descript which can. People would. If you use Descript, you know what I'm talking about, you know how cool it is. But a lot of people don't realize that you can train somebody from not being an editor to a really good editor and not so much time.

Yeah.

And that's what we did. And so they're going to be able to pump out really good quality videos that will perform well on places like TikTok.

And they can also jump into Canva and you know, you know, make thumbnails and stuff for YouTube they can clean up carousel stuff. So if the automation wasn't perfect they can clean it up little things, add some post emojis to make it better. Like icons.

Yeah.

To do the finishing touches. Right. Because automation is always going to be a little bit like automated. Right.

It'll get you, it will be 80% of the way that.

Right. So you got to have somebody come in slightly. Yeah, you got to have somebody come in and just like put that flare back. And then I have a part time editor who does probably 20% of the video editing in Adobe to do that high grade stuff the script just can't do. So that's how I, that's how I do it is like subject matter expert, someone to man the machine. I call it the machine architect so to speak. Then content operations full time has a variety of skills. Who, when I, and when I looked for that person I mostly the highest criteria was like are you passionate around making content? Because I was like if you like content in social media you'll be able to learn these things. No doubt.

Yeah. They're going to be consuming content therefore they're going to be like hey, I saw this cool thing. Let's, let's try it here.

Yeah. I was less concerned that they had like specific experience because I sometimes like there's a lot of old terms that get thrown around like social media manager and these. I don't even like think that way. Like I don't Want a social media manager. I just want good content and a system to do it. Yeah, like I like my, my thinking is like, how do you become a media company? That's my, that's the way I think.

Because then, then what we're talking about here is, and this, this will seem like a big deal for someone who's not doing any content at the moment, but I think one of the things that we have to preface this with is in any business, once you've got rid of the 3s, friends, family and anyone foolish enough to get close enough to so you can pitch to, you need to go out to a wider market who are cold, who don't know who you are and don't care.

Right.

And there's two kind of real ways, three ways to do that. You go and you run the streets and you network and you shake as many hands as you possibly can, which is difficult beyond the geographical constraint. The second way is you run paid ads. And paid ads is, it's a commitment financially and perhaps you work with an agency and you have to, you know, test and get your offer in front of people. But once a paid ad has been delivered, it's a numbers game. You're looking at percentage conversions, but once that paid ad has been shown, it's kind of dead. There's no long tail, there's no lifetime value. Content is a probably a bigger machine to set up, but that content can last for decades.

Right.

I've got videos that I made back in 2012 on making a camera work that still get views every single week. So it's a mindset, isn't it? It's a different approach to a longer term play, but to build your audience to a point. And what I think we've discovered is when you have an audience who really trust you, as long as you're consistent, they'll continue to trust you. And then you have this massive opportunity to expose products and services to that audience and convert them into customers.

Yeah, it's a scalability thing and you just end up touching a lot of people over a long period of time. And yeah, it is a mindset, but that's why I say it's like, have the mindset of becoming a media company. You're an educational force. And partly for me, like becoming an educator, helping people and building this out for me is a lot more fun than having a networking plan. Like, yeah, like, and it's a lot more scalable and it's a lot more.

Fun than ads because ads, you're constantly pulling your Hair out going, okay, what can we change to try and get a percentage point difference in engagement and result? But I think as Sam said to us during the Mastermind, he said, you know, running ads is like you're scrolling through your feed and someone interrupts you to try and sell you something. Whereas with content, you're scrolling through your feed and you see some content which you find helpful, interesting, engaging. So you scroll and you watch it. You're actually, you're actually not interrupting someone's reason for being there.

Exactly.

And it's, it's something that I'm fascinated by because I actually, I enjoy creating content way more than I do writing ads or networking.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing is like, we're like, we're all kind of creators in a way. We have these ideas. And that's the way I look at it too, is like, I was just like, this is going to be more fun.

And so like, what I tell other people is like, luckily I had.

Luckily I just was like, if somebody, if I see that person doing it, I know I can do it. And I, and I just went with it. So what I tell people is just like, have a belief that this will work and just really go for it because it is the best way to build your business. And if you have the right mindset, if you think long term, you will get short term benefits.

And something that.

I found, and we didn't talk about this last week, but when it comes to TikTok, you've had some pretty insane numbers watching your TikToks. Yeah, I mean, talk to me about that.

Yeah, so I mean, I've had, you know, videos that have 3, 400,000 or 300,000 views and that's actually low for TikTok. So like, you know, people that are really experienced, particularly that's it, you know, like, but to me, I was like, that's a lot. And so, and I, I get large numbers on a variety of types of videos. Like, even from like podcast clips and stuff. It's all just that art and how you clip up the clip, like, can you pull the context? Can you pull the value? Can you pull the energy into these clips? And yeah, so I mean, you know, and I, you know, I think 34,000 followers or something like that. And the best thing about it is just like the people that do follow me and interact with me, they're just, we're very aligned, you know, and I, you know, and I can tell because I also have a lot of people on there that'd be like, whoa. Like that what you're doing is crazy. That's overwhelming. I would never do that. That's ridiculous. So when you. When you start to see that polarizing kind of behavior, I think that's actually a really good sign on social media because, you know, now that, like, you. It's hard to stand out if you're not saying something polarizing.

Yes.

And I don't, you know. Yeah. And.

Sorry.

And. And I don't mean, like, contra. I mean guess. Controversial. But, like, polarizing just means you have a stance. Right. Because if. If you go out and you copy what other people are saying, like, that's the fastest way to blend in. Like, you have to be the elephant in the room to have a good marketing positioning.

A friend of mine, a friend of my wife's actually married to the chairman of Saatchi and Saatchi in London, and we were together sometime having lunch, and we were talking about Twitter, and this was probably 10 years ago, and we. I had more Twitter followers than him, and he was. We were having a bit of kind of fun with it, and I said, oh, I just. I can't really figure it out. Twitter. And he said, then just take a stance. Yeah, it's good to polarize people. And. And I think that's something that really stuck with me when you do take a stance. And I think it's. It's a balance between. You don't need to be a shock jock, but you can take a stance, and that will create a nice balance of people who love what you're saying and people who disagree with what you're saying. And I think that, as you say, makes you stand out and something that.

You know, for the filmmaking world, you know, I don't want people watching this or listening to this to think they've got to suddenly become this, like, shock jock dj and like, you know, controversial, create controversy. But it's. It's like your way of doing things may not be the standard way, but if you're willing to stand up and talk about it, you'll find people who will be really drawn to you and you'll repel others, and that's really healthy.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think you are. Most people already have it. They already have the topic, but they probably, when they go to talk about it, they soften it or they dilute it because they haven't seen somebody else say it. So they're not. They don't feel validated yet. So you already have it. Just say what's on your mind. Like without the filter, because you probably already have a lot of those ideas.

Definitely. Stephen, this is so, so interesting.

This is fun.

Where, you know, we talked a bit about the platform that you've created. How can people connect with you? What's the best way for them to do that if they want to learn more about that?

Yeah. So you could check me out on YouTube or TikTok, and if you, if you go to google.com and you just type Stephen with a P, H, G, P, O, P, E, I'm pretty sure my TikTok and my YouTube will pop up. That's the best way to just like, get a bunch more content about the stuff we're talking about. Like, quite literally, I'm like, showing people how to build these frameworks and the technology. And then from there, if you, if you really want to talk with me, you can either drop a comment on the content, I respond myself, or if you're like, this is. I want to actually talk to you, there's a place that you could, from either one of those channels to like, book a call and we can chat and, and talk about, like, if it makes sense to, to work together or not.

That's very, very cool, mate. It was, it was an absolute pleasure meeting you at that event.

Yeah, I was glad we did.

And, and this is awesome. And I'd love to come back and revisit this because I think, I think this is a topic that's not going to go away, is only going to evolve and you're, you're like the Gary Vee of this, of this, of this genre. So I feel very fortunate that we get a chance to, to tap in and ask you things directly.

Well, I appreciate that and I, and as a, as a testament to how content works is like, like the fact that you say that means that the content can work, right? Because, like, I'm going down a path and people are starting to say those things. Like, when you hear people repeating back to you the things that you're saying, you know that it's sticking. And that's why, like, you mentioned, the keeping to your pillars, that's important because if you talk about everything, people won't know how to identify you.

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