The single most important thing every filmmaker should know before they start a business. EP #126 - Caleb, Eric and Mark

Hey guys, Dan Lany here, host of the how to Scale a Video Business Podcast. And on this week's episode we've got something a little bit different. We've actually got three guests on the show today. Caleb, Mark and Eric are three school friends who went off and built their own careers over the last 10 years in video production. Everything from creative to running full blown production agencies, and have come together to create a community for filmmakers who are looking to break into the industry and get to that first six figures. And I met these guys whilst reaching out on LinkedIn. We got a really great conversation going and decided to get them on the show to share their insights and their journeys and how they've come together to create this new opportunity for young and upcoming filmmakers. So as always, I'd really appreciate it if you could leave us a review on your platform of choice and please tell people about this podcast. It really helps us to spread the word. We don't have sponsors, we just do this to really give great value and hope that you get some value from this episode. So please do enjoy the show. Let's get started with the show.

Well, guys, it's great to have you on the show. This is the first time I've had three guests simultaneously on the how to Scale a Video Business podcast. So we've got Mark, Caleb and Eric. I guess the best thing to do first of all is let's start with you, Mark. Tell us a bit about your business journey as a video producer, as a production company and we'll go through each one in turn to kind of give us a two minute summary if you will.

Yeah, certainly. So I started in audio actually and was working at a music venue where we were live streaming bands and shows that came through it. So it was like me and five other video people, so they taught me video and I taught them audio. But then I quickly realized, you know, I could, I could do video and audio together and that could kind of be like a powerhouse combination. And so I quickly then found like local businesses and then mid sized businesses and some larger businesses and started doing video as a one man band. And then from there I grew an agency for the first five years and had a whole bunch of employees were in multiple states and that kind of hit a wall with my business and was like, you know, similar I'm sure, to what you teach in your community. Like I had all this overhead and was like, what am I, what am I actually doing? I kind of lost touch with, you know, actually working with clients and actually doing my passion. So I made the decision to shut that all down and be way more of a producer director really for corporate filmmaking is how I describe it. So you know, I do everything from recruitment videos to learning management system, like training videos, some brand videos for like middle level clients. But you know, now I just use a network of other contractors, other freelancers.

And it's really worked out well because you can pull in different skill sets and really start utilizing the gifts that other people have rather than just trying to sell, sell, sell, sell, sell so you can pay overhead and keep the doors open.

Right. Caleb, what about you?

Yeah, so actually my origin story I started in theater performance and first time I picked a camera was in late high school and I fell in love with that. So I actually went to college for the. All throughout that I was like I had bought a camera and I was recording stuff and I was teaching myself the art of filmmaking. And then when it came to graduating school with this performance background and what I learned in film, that's when I started making short films. And then that graduated to making a couple features, one of which Eric actually was a part of. He was the director of photography.

And that was a blast. And going, building teams and just like making art for better or for worse, you know, and going down that road. And then over the last couple years I've been exploring a bit of a different route, like going more into that commercial corporate realm. But since we started the video community, it's like there's this part of me that still wants to be this creative director. So I've been returning back to those roots and been working on building some other short film type projects and actually dabbling into animals, animation and scaling out in different ways and trying out new mediums.

Awesome. And what about you, Eric?

All right, well, I just want to touch on something first that these two guys didn't mention is that we all three went to high school together and Caleb and I actually started shooting video together back then. That's kind of where I started first dabbling in it, not seriously, but more of as a hobby. I was actually a musician and Mark, he mentioned he was an audio engineer so he would record all of my band's music and whatnot. In college I really focused into graphic design at first and then I did sort of get a degree in video production but really didn't learn all that much. It was still all very self taught. I got a job out of college as a graphic designer at a independent record label.

And through that several months in, started shooting video just after showing some Skills that I already had and slowly transitioned into more and more video with that record label and started really shooting more music videos. So my career really started in the music video world and since 2016 started my own gig with my wife and we started working with local businesses and medium sized businesses shooting brand videos more for web, 30 to 60 second high energy videos and whatnot. And since have just been keeping it small like that. But.

You know, getting, finding all the fun work, you know.

Yeah, it's so interesting, you know, the number of filmmakers who also a background in music. I don't know a single filmmaker who instrument or is in a band. It's always very aligned. So let's talk a bit about your kind of business journey. So you've all been doing this for about a decade.

Tell me about why you came back together with the video community.

Yeah, I think what had happened was since we were friends and we kept in touch a little bit over the years, you know, like even like Mark and his agency, like Eric and I would come on and like we, we'd be a part of that process here and there and it was just kind of like the sporadic thing. And then just a couple years ago we kind of like rekindled and got back together and we were just sitting and chatting about the industry and how it was changing and how it was evolving and just freelancing and what, what was that life like? And the journey that we had been on up to that point and what we had come to realize is that it can be really lonely. The filmmaking journey can be really, really lonely. And what we realize is how lucky we were to have each other. We're going on this process and we didn't even realize how much we leaned on each other over these years, even if it's just in small ways and coming to this realization of the loneliness, we're like, we need to fix this right now. So that was the birth of the video community was like we were each other's community and we would talk to other filmmakers and it was a common thing about how lonely the business was and how it can be really isolating. And so we wanted to build a place where filmmakers could come together and realize they're not alone, that all the struggles they have are not unique to them, but many people go through them and to help people who are further along the journey to reach back and help uplift those just starting on the path.

Right, yeah, like to second him. It's like no matter what stage you, you are, if you're, you know, a One man band or you've got a whole agency and you know, eight or nine employees. Like community is, is vital to sustaining your business. And I kind of really realized that after I shut my agency down because, like, I had community inside of my company, but there wasn't much community of, especially for me, like people at the level that I was at and running the business, not necessarily producing. So it's like whether you're a film, like whether you're a camera op or DP or producer, you know, or an owner of an agency, that just that idea of intentional community was so important.

And I'd love to talk about that because, you know, so many filmmakers, when they're starting out their dream, their goal, their version of success is. And I've had this conversation with literally hundreds of filmmakers, like, what do you want to achieve? They're like, well, in a few years time, I'd like an office with a team so I can, you know, just do creative projects. So, Mark, this question is to you because I'm guessing that maybe have been one of your motivations. Can we fast forward five years and talk about the reality of what that looks like?

Yeah, certainly. So, like, it started out as a passion, you know, I think as all businesses do. Like, I was like, this is sweet. I'm having a lot of fun. We're just like creating videos, trying new techniques. And then I took on one or two employees and that was fine. And then we started three, four, five, and we started a second office and then we eventually launched a third office. And then all of a sudden I found myself in like a purely sales CFO role of like, I just need to sell more and I need to make sure that my books are even and profitable. So all of a sudden, without me even realizing it, I exited my creative passion and just became worried about, wow, I've got $30,000 of overhead every month and I need to make sure that every single month, not only are we selling enough to be profitable, but that.

That the money's actually coming in enough to pay all the bills.

Right?

And you know, I think I came to terms with that a little too late in it. And it was just like, where am I? Like, I wasn't intentional about like, yeah, I wanted a video business. I wanted to grow and be as big as possible, but I didn't, I didn't know what that looked like until I got there.

The other guys that. That clearly hasn't been the pathway. Is, has Mark's journey been kind of like, like an antidote to that have you kind of seen him go from like this creative guy to just being a kind of business guy where there's no creativity and gone. Well, thanks, buddy. We won't bother with that. We'll just kind of stick to being kind of, you know, I don't want to say smaller, but leaner. Tell me about, tell me about how that's inspired you guys.

Eric, you look like you got something to say. You want to start with that?

Sure. I was gonna say, yeah. Mark actually called the two of us the night that he kind of wrapped that whole business and fired.

All right.

Caleb and I were in Chicago shooting a 48 hour film festival. And late that night we got that call from Mark and, you know, he was letting us know that he had made that decision.

And it was your birthday, wasn't it, Mark? It wasn't your birthday.

Yeah, I made the decision on my birthday. And then two days later, there we go.

Okay.

Yeah. But, you know, I have to say I did notice.

Somewhat at the time the kind of move into that.

You know, losing the creative role and not really actually shooting as much video and stuff, but, you know, only a little bit. I didn't really notice until after he had made that decision how much he had been missing that, you know, part of his life. And he certainly, like ever since has been so much more happy. And, you know, even after that too, you know, Mark can speak on it more. He was kind of in a low spot trying to figure out, like, what am I going to do after this?

You know, how do I find this creative side of me again? And. But he certainly ever since has been much happier.

You can have it all. You can have a great business. Yes. The thing I think that's so critical for any filmmaker who's coming into business to understand is that you cannot just be creative all the time and not have to do work you don't want to do. You know, so many conversations I have, people are like, well, you know, I don't really want to do the corporate. I just want to do the creative. But they're incredibly naive because if you are providing a business service, you have to service your clients. But I always say to people, if you did 80% corporate and it was high profit, you can invest 20% of the rest of the time in making creative. How do you feel about that? And I guess, Mark, you're the obvious one to come to, but I'll come to you in a second. But Caleb, for you and Eric, who have, I guess, pursued more of a creative route, how do you balance that with making money because let's face it, you have to make profit in a business because that's the purpose of a business is to, you know, acquire a customer and keep a customer and make the shareholders profit. How do you guys rationalize that as perhaps more of the creative side of your kind of your trilogy of businesses?

Honestly, I've used my creative origin as, as a strength when acquiring clients. I tell them like, I come from a storytelling background and if you want to work with me, this is what I bring to the table. I want to find your story and that's what I want to tell. And you know, depending on their budget and what their available resources are, is like how far we can go down that path or what exactly that looks like. But I think that the two do not have to be mutually exclusive. And that's something I had to learn. I'm not going to lie to you. It's like, you know, coming out of college, you got this bright eyed, bushy tailed, like, I'm just gonna make movies the rest of my life, you know, and like, and yeah, sure, that's possible, whatever. But like, just like you said, if you are gonna keep it lean and mean, you do have to make money. And I don't think that you have to sacrifice creative. It's about adapting creative to a corporate culture if that's the route you're gonna go.

Nice. And what about you, Eric?

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I will say that, you know, I have taken gigs that I weren't as interested in, but I will also say with that, I have said no to plenty of projects that didn't feel right at the same time.

So, you know, I think I made more of a.

Attempt at keeping it small. I always wanted it to just be me and my wife making videos together. So I really never had an interest in growing into a agency or anything and definitely made a point of keeping it that way and finding the right clients that wanted to use my kind of team, small team. And you know, it was, it was just more of a choice in that. That realm.

Isn't no the most powerful word in filmmaking and yet the word that most filmmakers are scared of, Mark, you must.

Have.

The word no. You said, oh no. You know, I got a good story for that because I think Eric and Caleb though. So I had, I had two employees. They're like kind of, you know, one and a half, one full time, one part time. And it was like, all right guys, you know, we're going to rev this up. Take this to the next level because I've always been kind of that like left and right brain, like business minded, but also creative.

And so I hired two business developers in one year. Right. Not understanding really what that means because when you're solo, you sell it however you really want to sell it. And I was always about systems and processes, but when it came to sales, it was like it was a new ballgame. So in that year we went from like 12 clients to 120.

But after that year, the whole team was so stressed because I would Bet probably like 80 or 90 of those clients are like 1 to $3,000 projects that induce so much stress on everyone and we're the neediest clients.

Yeah.

And that just taught me the lesson that like, everybody is not your target. And if you don't niche down and understand, like not just what's your niche, like, you know, I'm in corporate, more so in like recruiting and training and education and some brand videos. But even further than that, I would say personality wise, because we're all people. Like, you're selling, you're selling you, yes, you're selling roi. You got to figure out the business prop. But like, they're gonna work with you and you're gonna work with them. And I've got a family, I've got three kids now. And like, for me it comes down to, is this client going to give me more life and more energy and more enjoyment that I can come home to my family and be there and be present? Or am I going to be so stressed that, you know, 6 to 10, 12 hours I'm working that I come home and I'm just dead beat and I get burnt out.

It's such an important point and it's so good to hear this. I mean, I guess in many ways, Mark, you had the. If you look back on it, those five years of tough building a business and then making the decision to shut it down is probably what's going to save your marriage and your kids. Because, you know, I think there's a shift. I mean, I've been in this business 27 years. I've seen a lot of shifts, but less is more. There is so much work available. There is endless supply of work and an endless supply of clients. But what I say to my listeners and my members is pick your lane and go deep. Become the expert, become the authority. Because you cannot serve everyone. And yet, and I'm curious to hear your experience with kind of, I guess, fresher, fresher business owners. Like a lot of filmmakers. Just think They've got to be all things to all people. How do you find that as new members coming into your community? What are some of the challenges that they face that you help them overcome?

Oh, man, that's. I'm so glad you brought that up. So we, so we actually made a course called Six Figure Video Business. And we actually have a whole section where we go through with these filmmakers about, like, finding their interests and their strengths as a filmmaker and finding what niche can they serve and fully maximize those gifts that they have inherently and those strengths, because we believe that is where they will maximize themselves as a filmmaker and be the happiest and make the most money. Because if you enjoy what you're doing and you're really good at it, you're just going to naturally want to keep going deeper. So that's something we try to invest in them early in the process so they can get thinking about that as.

They go through, you know, and to kind of piggyback off that. I, I think in my case, and, you know, I would, I dare say, like a lot of people's cases, starting out, it's. It's what you talked about then, of like, scarcity versus abundance. You know, it's hard to create that thick skin and that mindset or to callous your mind to understand when you're starting out and you're not making any money or very little money, sometimes you got to say yes to gigs that you don't want to take. However, that's going to bite you long term. And so getting them to understand, like, no, don't take that $300 wedding. Like, how is that. Or if you take it, how is that serving you long term? How is that going to get you, like, your next five clients? Because if $300 can multiply to 30,000, great, take that $300 project. But if it's not, then why are you doing that? It's just gonna distract you from really your end goal.

I think what happens is a lot of filmmakers have a very, very active fear nodule in their brain. And the fear nodule says, oh, someone's like. It's a kind of mixture of fear and adulation. It's like, hey, someone wants me. But they kind of. They don't have much budget, but they're a really nice couple or really nice people, and I just want to help them. And they end up working for free or worse than free. And, you know, I've never, ever, ever met anyone who's taken a cheap job with the promise of more work, who's ended up with more work at a higher rate. I just, it never happens.

No. You know, we've got something that we call brand building. That's, that's, that's, you could say on paper is kind of similar, but it's the complete opposite where like, ever since I shut down my agency, like we kind of got into it towards the end, but like, like Krispy Kreme doughnuts, I think they're like global. Everybody knows them. For example, I was trying to win them over and it was a pitch between like me and three other agencies. So I was the only kind of self branded independent filmmaker. Like, I went above and beyond by creating different videos, different concepts in my pitch. So is that free work? Like technically, sure. But like I know the potential of what it is and it was on my terms and it was proactive and it was something that I wanted to do that I could use for future pitches. So it was more about like, how am I building my own content that I can use regardless if they take it or not? But also show them that like, hey, this is the initiative. But I think like Eric always, he does a good job on, on the invoice piece of it is like, if you're going to pitch somebody a project and like, hey, here's a new idea, you tell them exactly how much it's going to cost and you give that to them. And then even if you're like, you know, hell, I'll just, I'll just do it for you because I believe in what we're doing. But this is gonna cost $15,000. I've had like, that's kind of the only sense of what we call like brand building or, you know, I hate to use the word free work because it's not. Because people get in that trap and they're just like, oh, 300 bucks. All right, cool. Or like, what's your budget? Where it's like, no, I approach it, we're like, no, this is how much I cost.

Yeah.

Like it or not.

And what you're saying is, yeah, at that point, then you discount it. Like, even if you're going to do it for free, you know, quote unquote, like, you discounted 100%. That's something. Leaving very much to be a troll.

Value attached to the work. Yes. I find it, I see a lot. And I've never done. This is people say, oh, well, you know, I put this pitch together, I did all this work and then we didn't win the gig. It's like the number of people who are spending time giving away ideas and IP without being paid. And I think it's just down to confidence. They just feel like the client's in control. And when you, when you build the confidence and get the right support to understand going into a client and saying actually I don't think this is for us. The number of clients come back. I did it with Sony recently. I just did a film for Sony on the A7SIII and I turned them down at first. I said this is not the wheelhouse, not like doing production anymore. Guys. I, I'm a business coach. My fully in that space. I haven't shot anything for three or four years. And they were like, no, no, we want you to do this. How much will it cost? And I said look, you know, why don't you tell me what you've got and what you want and I'll let you know if I can help. They came back with a figure, it worked out. I said, okay, we can do this. They were like, sure, no problem, everyone's happy. But that's a one off. But like I was happy to say absolutely. I don't care who the client is. I don't care how big the celebrity is.

Yeah.

How big the opportunity might be because at the end of the day, you know, I know what my value is and if they want me, this is the price. And I think that's pretty much what you guys are saying, right?

Absolutely, absolutely. Is control. Absolutely it's control. Because what we're talking about is it's like you get to choose that. It's not I'm going to do this for free. It's like I and client whatever is controlling how you're going to do. It's like I will do this. But then like you maintain control. It's like pivoting yourself from a service provider. We always say it's pivoting from a service provider to a video expert. You come in there and you're like, this is how it's going to look. And if it is going to be brand building as we call it, then it's like, then you maintain control of that project. You invoice, just like we talked about, you give them that discount but they know full on what you're worth, how you work. Yeah. And if they want you in the future, they know exactly how much you.

Cost and always get money up front. I mean, I can't believe the client won't give me 50% up front. Bullshit.

Bullshit.

I never do a job.

Won'T do it.

And you know what? I just did a job for Sony. I got half the money up front in three days. There's always a way to make it work. And I just make it an absolute prerequisite that we do not shoot a frame, create a storyboard until that money's been paid.

Absolutely.

Why do you think that. That so many filmmakers struggle with that scarcity, man.

They think, like, oh, if I'm bold to them, they're not gonna like me. Mm. Because I. The beginning of my career, like, sure. All right. You want to. Like, I'd let them control me, and then I realized, like, I'm just their employee, then I'm just not on their payroll, and it's a terrible place to be. Terrible place versus, like, no, you want them to work with you because of who you are and what your brand represents.

Honestly, it's dating. Can we just, like, call it what it is? Like, getting clients, it's like dating. You got to maintain your value, because if you don't maintain your value, they're not going to. So you have to come in and be like, if respect is not being served, I will not sit at this table. And I think there is this fear, scarcity mindset where people will just sit anyway, and then they'll get walked over, and then that's bitter, regretful. That's when you get people with so much talent quitting and going into other things. Like, we've known people with so much talent who've given up because they couldn't find their way out of this. And really, one of the core kernels is maintaining your value.

Yeah.

No matter what.

Alpha positioning without being the alpha male, you're alpha positioning your authority in the fact that you are someone who understands this space intrinsically, intimately, and will provide value. And for that, there is a cost. A cost. Exchange. It's always about exchange of value.

I mean, I love that you brought that up, because something I've implemented in the last, probably year and a half or two years, every proposal, I create a custom video of just like myself on my couch, professionally done, but super simple. And I just let them know, like, hey, here are the values, like passion, purpose, service, and integrity. That's how I run my business. And if that sounds good to you, like, every. Every client I have starts on those four values. And if you can't. If you can't establish that, and if we don't have that trust, then I respect that. But we're not going to be a good fit. And I don't want to work with You.

But the thing that's awesome about that, Mark, is you know how few businesses who are selling video, who are trying to get their client to hand over thousands of dollars to make a video because the filmmaker saying, hey, because you got to use video, because it's what everyone's using and they don't use video themselves. Like, it's so incongruent, like, get over yourself, get on camera and connect as a person using the medium you're trying to sell to get that person to understand that you're a real human being. I love that.

You know, I think it's funny because.

I feel like my journey into filmmaking has been very non traditional. I didn't go to school for it. You know, I know a lot of people didn't, but a lot of the people that I'm meeting now, they either went to school or they're in more of that, like traditional West Coast Hollywood, multi layered. You got to be in one position, in one niche. And that just doesn't lend itself to growing your own business and using your own talents to produce more work.

Right.

So, guys, we're kind of coming to the end of our time. Just a minute. I want to understand a bit more about the video community because in the spirit of abundance, you know, there are hundreds of thousands of filmmakers around the world who need help and support. And some of them I can't help, and some of them you can help and vice versa. So why don't you share with me what the video community is, why you started it and who it's for?

Certainly. So it's a community to empower filmmakers to grow their business, like, plain and simple, you know, that's what it is. And just as any business, it's evolved over the last year and a half to starting a course that was an eight week accelerator to get people just the blueprint of like, what are the nuts and bolts to set up your business so that you can scale to six figures and beyond. And then we started a coaching program with the three of us of coaching these, you know, newer filmmakers into giving them that, that support. Because it's one thing to take an online course, but it doesn't give you feedback, you know, you can't engage with it.

Learning versus active skill building.

Exactly. And then we started talking to. We shifted our podcast to just filmmakers. So we started talking to more and more filmmakers who were probably five to 10 years in their career. And you know, the whole conversation we're like, well, how can I give back to my community? I've got this online network. And so now what we've done is really built a.

You know, a system, a process to partner with these more veteran filmmakers who we share the same values with to help them launch their own self branded coaching program where we take off all the load of the admin, the marketing, the branding, the customer service, you know, no upfront cost for them, but we're their support system to help them launch another service, you know, alongside their video production. Something that's reoccurring revenue, but really something that's to give back to the industry to really change the next generation of how filmmakers grow up, you know, and how filmmakers learn, learn the industry. Because we're only three guys. That's what we've realized. Like we're only three guys and that's such a small percent of the entire global industry. And so, you know, we just believe that the more, the more experience and the more people and the more knowledge share that we can pull together to share open source with people, the greater that we're going to leave, we're going to leave this industry when we're done with it.

I agree and I think this industry has always been one of sharing and what I've particularly enjoyed in the last five or so years is there are more people like us sharing insights in how to grow and scale a business. And, and I think that that's just good for the industry. Regardless of sales and opportunity, the conversation is moving more and more towards how do you take this passion and turn it into a business. And I said to you before we get on the call, someone said to me recently, are you sure you want to do this interview? Those guys are competitors. I'm like, not really.

We're all looking to support filmmakers at different stages of the journey to get to that next level. And the next level is always a very overused saying. But let's say they're at zero. You want to get into 100 grand, my guys are at 250, I want to get into 500 or a million. There are different things along that journey, but actually putting revenue aside, I want people to have time and freedom and.

That is value, that is success. I know plenty of people doing a million bucks a year in other industries going, I've got a million dollar business but they don't make any money and they're working 100 hours a week. That is not freedom. I'd love to get from each of you just one parting statement about.

Where you want to see the industry go, where you want to see the members you work with go, what shifts are you seeing? Just to kind of summarize that for.

Me, if you will, I know for me it's how people learn. I think that the traditional ways of learning are not serving the vast majority of our community and I think it's actually failing them on a grand scale. And I think that there are more adaptive, intuitive and more innovative ways for people to, to enter the film industry. I never went to film school, but I'm doing just fine. And I just think this is an important message that I want to pass on that you can learn, you can grow. This is an industry that you can break into through non mainstream avenues. And that's just, that's okay, that's, it doesn't matter how you get in, it's that you come in with the drive and the ambition and the willingness to learn.

I love that. Eric, what about you, mate?

I think what's important for me to leave behind to this industry is to encourage everyone to really find their value and accept their value and know their value. That's something I struggle with early on, so it's something I hold dear. But you know, just understanding where your value is with your clients and knowing how to.

Give that value and ask for their value in return.

I love that. And Mark, we'll finish up with you as the kind of the granddaddy of growing a big business and then letting it go because it wasn't serving you.

Yeah, you know, I think for me everything comes personal, but like I've always wanted a successful business and, and a successful family and it's been really hard to find good examples of that. And that was my goal. And it seems like in the world we live today, those are, those are very competing factors when they don't have to be. And no matter what kind of lifestyle you want to live, I mean you've said it like it's a life of freedom, but really like a life of balance of like, you know, some weeks you have to work 120 hours, other weeks you work five. You know, but understanding, getting people to really understand like what, what is it that, that they want? What does success actually mean to you? And then how do you build the community around you to keep you accountable and to help you not just get there, but then sustain it there. Because like I got there but it wasn't a, it wasn't like climbing a mountain. It was like you get to the top and you're like, is this it? You know, it wasn't sustainable. So I, you know, I really, I really want to leave a legacy with other filmmakers where they understand how to. How to have a sustainable, happy career.

You know, one of the biggest lessons I'll share over the last 11 years that I've been running this business, and we started in 2009 with F Stop Academy, selling DVDs on how to shoot with a 5D mark to. We were the first.

It has changed every single year since. You know, by 2012, we couldn't give them away. The industry, the platforms, the mechanisms have changed dramatically. And I think the piece of advice I want to leave every filmmaker listening to this is that do not come into a business thinking that once you've nailed your marketing, that's it. It's going to stay sustained. You'd never stop moving the needle. It is. The biggest lesson I learned was we had a phenomenal first year in business and I was like, easy, we'll be a million bucks in no time. And then the next year, something else changed. We were making DVDs and selling them for $139 each. The next year, we were selling them for digital downloads. The year after, there was so much pirated stuff and they were on YouTube, we couldn't make any money. So be aware that the. The marketplace is always changing, the technology is always changing, and you are always changing. So, guys, it's been such a pleasure to have you on. I will link to your resources beneath this and thanks so much. Hey, guys, thanks for watching. I hope you got a huge amount of value from that episode. If you're looking for additional support or resources to support your business journey, then head over to Denleny.com where you can get a whole heap of other resources, free downloads, and access all the other episodes in the series. Be sure to subscribe and I'll see you next time.