What the hell is copywriting? ... and why you should care. EP #204 - Jaimee Maree of Savvy Copy

Hey guys, it's Dan here with an episode of the how to Scale a Video Business podcast. And today I've got a very special guest. If you've ever wondered what copywriting is and how it can benefit your website, then you're in for a real treat because I've actually got my copywriter on the show, Jamie Marie from Savvy Copy. Her and her team have just rewritten the whole website for me. Landing pages, thank you pages, email sequences. And it's been a journey of about eight months. And I wanted to get Jamie on the show because I feel they've done such an incredible job of articulating what it is we do, how we do it, how we help people that I wanted to share that with you because I think there's a tendency with video businesses to kind of write their own copy and I think that's a mistake because it's very hard to write from the perspective of your prospects and clients needs. What typically happens is video businesses tend to talk about their showreel and the things that they want to share that they think are important. So during this interview you're going to learn not only what is copywriting and how it can be utilized to great effect to help you sell more video projects, but also we break down the process that I went through with Jamie and her team and how she researched my audience, interviewed my clients and, and was able to discover the real guts of what people really needed in their businesses when it came to coaching and, and how they translated that into a story based copy series that I think flows very well across the site. And at the very end there's also an opportunity to get a free copy review of your website from Jamie and her team. So I think you'll find this really beneficial. It was great to finally catch up with Jamie and do this session. So now just one more thing before get into this episode. Unfortunately I knocked a dial on the input of the mic and the way I've got my system configured, it didn't. There's no way monitoring and so the. My audio is a little bit hot in places so I apologize for that.

It's burnt in. There's not much I can do about it unfortunately. But the good thing is Jamie's doing most of the talking so I hope you enjoy the show.

Well, Jamie Marie, this has been a little while in its making. I've been trying to strong arm you into coming on this show for a while, but you've been a bit busy mostly writing my website and pretty much exactly.

It'S so lovely to finally have you on the show and also just to share with my viewers and listeners the kind of the genius behind our new sounding and looking website because you and the team have done an amazing job of writing all the copy. So thank you for that for starters and welcome to the show.

Thank you very much for having me, Dan. And it's been a pleasure working on all of your copy as well and seeing it come to life. It's been amazing.

So for anyone who's listening to this and be watching this and is not sure what a copywriter does because it can be confusing. Can you sort of give us the 2 seconds, 2 minute summary if you like, on what is a copywriter and what do you do?

Yeah, absolutely. So copywriting is really the words, whether they're spoken or written, that marketers use to get people to take a particular action after reading or hearing them. That's really what copywriting is. There are lots of different forms of copywriting. So they can be like branding and creative copywriting. You can have technical copywriting, SEO copywriting, and then there's direct response copywriting, which is what we specifically do. And that's really makes us what it is on the box. It's direct response. So basically the action that you want someone to take at that particular time is what we're designed to do. So whether that's reaching out to someone to book a call, whether that's buying a particular product or service on the page, that's what direct response copywriting is. So basically we craft the words for in particular websites, sales pages and landing pages and funnel pages where we really want the target audience to take a particular action at that time.

So I work with a lot of filmmakers and typically filmmakers put together a website which has a watch my show reel and we're really passionate about video. He here's how we make it. Pre production production, post book a call. And I would, I would guess that 98% of the people listening to show would never dream of hiring a copywriter. And I think that's a mistake.

So given that I think it's a mistake and I know why, but perhaps the audience might not. And I think it's probably better coming from you than me. Why is it a mistake to try and write your own copy? What are some of the pitfalls of writing your own copy?

Sure. So I think one of the biggest reasons why it's not a great idea to ever write your own copy is because often you're really, really close to the product that it is that you're offering in particular from video production sites. They do, they talk about what the solution is, they talk about their videos, they put a showreel on their website. But what it really fails to do is actually take into consideration the person that's coming to the website and all of the psychological drivers and the things that are actually happening for that person that's coming to the site. And there's a lot of sales skills that goes into actually getting someone to take a particular action. And this is something that I find a lot. I've worked with video production businesses before and I've seen it time and time again where they fail to think about the person that's actually hiring them, whether that's the person that's inside the organization, whether it's someone in the marketing department of big companies and not getting inside the mind of who it is that's coming to the the website, their pain points, problems and challenges, and instead just sort of showing what you can do doesn't take into consideration their buying process and what they need. So. So there's so much that is involved with copywriting that a lot of business owners, and in particular I've seen in the video production space, a lot that they fail to include. That's really important.

One of the things I've observed, and I've been obviously talking a lot about copywriting and the process, we've been working together the last six or so months to rewrite danlenny.com and there's a lot of hidden landing pages and email sequences and all sorts of work that's being done in the background is that as filmmakers we rarely just pick up a camera and go and shoot. We generally come up with a concept. We generally work out what the objective of the video is. We generally write a script, do research, scout locations, find the right place to shoot, pick the right day, and then spend enormous time in post production editing. And what struck me was that writing copy for, for anything but let's call it, the name on a website is exactly the same. And yet I see so many filmmakers, myself included, who spent 10 years trying to study copywriting, write my own copy. Why do you think there is such a fear of hiring a copywriter? Because I see so many people trying to do it, themselves, myself included, doing it very badly. Yeah. Is this something you see a lot of.

We see it all the time. I think there's a couple of reasons why people don't use copywriters. Some don't even really know what copywriters do. And the Difference between, you know, we learn to write at school, right? So this is one of the biggest things that we sort of come across. So a lot of people think, oh, I can do this myself. I know my product and service the best. This is one that we hear all the time. I understand my product the best. No one else is ever going to be able to understand it as much as well as I do. Excuse me. And so they feel that they need to write it themselves, which is a really big.

That's something that gets in people's way a lot. You know. You know that you don't know how to use design tools to design a website, but a lot of people feel that they can write the words that will sell their products and services. And what we've really found, and a lot of.

Tests have been done over the past few years, that copywriting is actually two times more important than design. So it's really interesting that a lot of people feel that they either don't know that they need copywriters in order to actually attract more leads and make more sales and get more inquiries. They have a fear sometimes at the expense of copywriting, because.

It'S such actually an important part of the marketing process. They can have that fear. They can have a fear that it becomes across as sleazy or salesy or icky and that there's definitely a reputation for copywriting out there like that where it certainly doesn't need to be like that at all. So I think it's really that combination of it's an expense. A lot of people think that they can do it themselves and get the. Get the best result. And then some people feel like the brand voice that will be created by copywriters won't be authentic to who they are. So I think it's a mixture.

One of the things that struck me quite early on in our process was how much time and effort you guys go into research. I mean, I think I completed probably a six or seven page document. I think you interviewed three of my clients. That was a good three hours worth of content. And I've heard that the real. I mean, there's many skills in copywriting, but the real guts of it is doing the research properly. And that's certainly come across because when I first read my first draft of my homepage, I think I had like very minimal changes and I couldn't believe how much better I sounded. I felt like you had taken all of the value that I bring to my clients and actually put it on words on the page. And that's something that, you know, I know it's not just me. You've worked with some pretty big. I mean, I don't want to embarrass you, but you've worked with the producer of Pretty Woman to write his copy. And I love the video where he said something along the lines of, you know, yes, I can write and produce a film, but writing a page on how to describe how I teach that is very challenging. Can you tell us a bit more about that process?

Yeah. So I think the most important part of copywriting is actually the research process. The writing itself obviously needs a lot of skill to it as well. But the thing that people really fail to understand a lot of the time is that the most effective marketing gets inside the minds of the people that are consuming that marketing. It is understanding their pain points, their problems, their challenges, their desires, what's keeping them up at night. And I think that as we go through our process. So Dan, you were like one of. Well, you are totally our ideal client in that you actually came to us with a lot of information that I think you collected over a really long period of time, which was an absolute goldmine. But we have a process of diving even deeper and really trying to extract everything from our clients experience over however long they've had their business for. And the next thing that we do is, like you said, we interview our clients clients because we often actually need to remove the filter of the business owner for what they know and understand. Because at the end of the day, the solution that you're providing is important, but it's actually understanding your clients that is so much more important. And when we open up this dialogue and we just have them answer questions, have a really casual conversation, that's when they open up to us and really tell us what is actually going on that your solution solves for them. And so this is the part that a lot of people miss out in the part of the process. And I think a really great example of this is when I did some work with a video production company and we've really dived into who was their ideal client, who was going to go looking for their products and services, who was the one that was surfing the Internet. And in this particular case they.

Did video for a lot of government organizations for some big corporates. And it was really their marketing department that were the ones that were in charge with. They've been basically told we've got a budget, go out and find a video production company. And then.

And then they go from there and basically what the difference there is with understanding the ideal client. And this is where I notice a lot of video production businesses going wrong is understanding what that goal is of that person that's actually looking for them. And when you think about someone that's working in the marketing department, their priorities really shift. And Seth Godin did a really great explanation of this where he talked about what is important to someone that works in an organization versus a business owner are two very, very different things. And this is what's fascinating because when you are talking to that person in the marketing department and someone that doesn't own the business, their needs are really different. So their needs come down to avoiding risk, avoiding hassle, gaining praise, gaining power, having fun. And then number six is making a profit. And so when you think about that person that's coming to your site, they are already way overworked. They've got a lot on their plat. They want to work with a production company that they can really rely on, that's not going to waste their time, that's going to deliver what they say. Because if they make the wrong decision, hiring the wrong video production company and they, excuse me, and they put their job on the line and their reputation amongst their peers, amongst the people that are their superiors, then that's the problem. And so, so many production companies put on their website, they're so real. And to someone in the marketing department, they're like, that looks great. Did you absolutely blow my budget? Did you, you know, were you 12 months past your deadline? Did you make me fill out all of these forms that I just never had time to do? Did you respond to my, you know, when I had edits or. So all of these things are like, well, the product's great, but is that actually going to make my job easier? And I mean, this can be flipped. If you are talking to a business owner, then it's different. Their priorities are making sales then making profit. Are things efficient, the impact and legacy of that business owner? So I've kind of been rambling now for a little while, but this is why understanding this part of the process and opening up those conversations with your ideal clients is what will make or break the success of your marketing of your website and things like that. Because at the end of the day, and I know production companies, they do have differences in what they do and what they finally, you know, provide to their client. I think it's actually their process and the way that they go that about it that is actually the difference in the USP that they have, not the actual end Product itself.

I love that. And I. I know that, that we're very big on systems here at the Video Business Accelerator. We're very big on systemizing every part the process. And the very first thing we start with is, who are you serving? Because I forget where I heard this, but something goes something along the lines of when you try and market to everyone, you end up talking to no one. And so if you don't know who you're talking to, number one. The second thing is, and this is where you guys are absolutely fantastic, is you get under the skin, not of the problem that the business owner thinks their clients have, but actually you get under the skin of what the problems the clients actually have and what they're not telling you about, because that's the real decision. And that hierarchy of business needs that you're referring to is exactly that. It's understanding. A lot of filmmakers feel that, you know, how the film looks is the most important thing, but that may not actually be the most important thing for the client. In actual fact, that avoidance of risk is huge. Which is why I guess I took the time to work with you guys because I had been spending so much time trying to get my message through, and I was actually confusing my market. I had good clients of mine saying, hey, you've changed your website again. And, you know, like, this is not what you do. And so I think it was a really powerful decision. And look, there is an investment. There's definitely a psychology of an investment. But I mean, off the back of writing the website, we've now done all of the landing pages, all of the email campaigns. There is now a synergy across everything we put out in the marketplace. So thank you for that, because that has been huge. But the other thing that I think I wanted to ask you about is to, you know, I want people to understand you're not just a copywriter, that you actually have a background in digital marketing. And. And I'd love you to share a bit about how you got to being a copywriter, because I think that what. What makes savvy copy so unique is that you're not just grabbing a copywriting team. You're getting so much more. And I'd love for you to share a bit about your background, because I think that provided an enormous amount of additional value.

Yeah, well, basically, I started my life in digital marketing actually 11 years ago. So I did have a digital marketing agency up until about two years ago. And basically, I mean, from our perspective is copywriting is technically what I said before, the words that you write on the page that you're trying to get someone to take an action. But there is so much more to marketing and the buyer's process and your sales process and actually making that happen. And I think the reason why we feel we really offer such a huge difference to a lot of people is because. To a lot of businesses is because we can see things from that higher level. We see what the ultimate goal is that you want to achieve, and we really break it down. We work out what is going on for you. And I know, Dan, when we had a conversation and we were looking, I think, at some of your funnel and we were like, okay, what do we want this to look like? What do we want to do here? And I think I pushed back at some point and I asked you about something and because we were going to go in a particular direction and.

We then realized we were like, actually, no, the stats show this and we need to look at this in more detail because this is what's.

Yeah, it was an ebook. And actually you were suggesting we have an ebook funnel. And I pushed back and went, oh, no, no, no, we' that it doesn't work. And you said, show me. And I was like, oh, okay. And then I went and dug up the numbers and went back and researched what resulted from that campaign. And I came back somewhat with a tail between my legs going, yeah, that worked quite well, actually. We had like, you know, something like a 700% return on ad spend. And you were like, okay, let's go back to the funnels. I think what was really cool was you. You weren't afraid to challenge me on my own belief systems, which I think happens when you run your own business. You go, ah, I tried that. It didn't work. I tried Facebook. It didn't work. And I think that's what's. There's. There's so much additional value to beyond just the copywriting because of your background. Sorry. I just wanted to kind of button there because, like, that was a huge moment and that's been. It's now our front end funnel.

Yeah, well, that's right. And I think being able to see that and to have that experience and expertise allows me to be able to push back and challenge CL a little bit. Because I think a lot of copywriters, well, a lot of people call themselves copywriters, aren't copywriters. They're often content writers. But even copywriters will just like, someone will say, hey, we need this one page and that's it. Go away and write It. But I think it just doesn't work that way to not really think through your entire sales process and to make sure that you're moving people at different points, whether they're cold leads or hot leads. And I think seeing it from that higher level is a really valuable part of the process, because.

I think that so many things, from a marketing perspective, a lot of it is testing and trialing things all the time. And I think being able to have that perspective because of all of the experience of. Because we've built websites, we've run Facebook ads, we've built more marketing funnels that you can poke a virtual stick at, then that really adds value to copywriting, because we map out the pages, knowing where we're going and the direction that we want to go. And it all actually came about almost by accident as to why we've exclusively offered copywriting. But we actually just had someone in our referral network reach out to us and said, hey, we've got a really big client. I know you don't you. You offer copywriting, but usually it's part of your digital marketing services. But I really need your help with this one. And they were very, very well known. A lot of people would know their names of the investors in that business, but they had a very underperforming marketing campaign. I had 24 hours to turn around the copy, and that's all I was responsible for. And the results of that campaign were just absolutely through the roof. And from my perspective, it just. It really proved to me that it wasn't about who, like, because they were so well known, you could tell that it wasn't just their authority that they had and the fact that people knew who they were. If they still didn't have good marketing and good copy to.

Get across what it is that they've got to offer, then they weren't going to be able to actually convert them. So then it just made me be able to take a step back and actually go, you know what? I love the copywriting side of this. We don't need to take care of absolutely every part of the puzzle, but we work with experts now that they're incredible at what they do. All they need is for people to be able to write copy, to be able to sell how good they really are.

It's. It's so true. And I think the thing that's been such an uplift for me personally is that, you know, us filmmakers are quite sensitive, fragile, you know, empaths, and. And really what we care about is giving our client A great product. And you guys very much care about that as well. There's a great harmony there. But I think what you were able to do was to put into words the, the experience that I have, the, the things that I've achieved, the people I've helped. And I think that was what was so powerful, was I finally felt like when someone comes to the website, they're getting a true picture. And I think you'd said to me, you were like. I was talking to you about some of my experience. You were like, and this isn't on your website. And I'm like, no. Kind of like, you know, like working with Tom Cruise or Robbie Williams or Duran Duran. It's like, oh, yeah. Because I think as filmmakers, we. We spend a lot of time. And actually a friend of mine said to me, said, you've got to be careful not to allow yourself to get caught up in what you think your peers will think of you when they read the copy, as opposed to what a brand new cold prospect will think when they read the copy. Because I was a little bit, you know, uncomfortable with some of the, some of the directions you were going in terms of, like, what you were saying and how you were describing me. And I let it go because I realized that was just my own ego feeling like, oh, I'll think that my peers will think I'm a bit of, a. Bit of a bit of an idiot here. Why is he saying that? But actually that was just my ego. And. And so what's really good about having a copywriting team is that they will see, hear and feel things through the research that, that you feel are very, very important. And so you'll kind of. And I like that. Push, pull. Like there was, There was always a very healthy. I always felt like you always had my best interests at heart and you really wanted to make sure that end to end everything made sense. And I think that's really important. And that's clearly something you do very consciously. You're very conscious about the end to end process, making sure that the story gets told.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the part of the process that allows us to really get an understanding is when we do interview our clients, clients is understand what is actually important to them. With. From a perspective of putting your authority forward and finding that balance of, you know, what you were telling us and then going, okay, we've interviewed your ideal clients and we actually feel this is really important to them to understand who you are, what you've got to offer, all of your experience and expertise. Because Authority is one of the biggest psychological drivers that we incorporate into copywriting that will make someone decide to sign up with you. And if you're not putting that forward nearly enough, then you're missing out on one of the most important things that they'll be thinking when they're deciding whether or not to hire you. So I'm not too sure if I actually just answered your question there, but I was, I was talking about something else. But the process of going from yes, start to finish and giving you the end product, that feels really. It's finding this balance of how do you want to come across, what is your brand voice, what's really important to you? If there was something that you didn't want to do, we would talk about it. I might push back. You can push back, but at the end of the day, if we feel like it'll get results, we'll tell you that if we don't think it matters so much, then we do have that push and pull to go. We really feel like your audience needs this and we want to get to that end result that you absolutely love what you do. It feels authentic to you, but also has all of those sales drivers that we know need to be in the product.

I think the other thing that was really key about the process, Jamie, was, you know, I've been in marketing long enough to know that very, very few campaigns win a home run as soon as they're switched on. It's a constant testing, retesting, adjusting, sometimes minuscule adjustments. But when you've got a well written page and a well written site, you feel like, well, I'm putting my best foot forward. This is who we help, this is what we do, and this is who I am. And I think what it does is it. It reminds you that not everyone is an ideal client. So if you have your copy written well, what you're actually doing, and it's as important, I believe, is repelling those people that aren't a good fit as well as attracting those that are. Is that something you consciously do when you're writing copy?

Absolutely. We try and understand exactly who is a good fit for a product and who is not a good fit for a product. Sometimes we'll very specifically call it out in the copy. We do that on my website and in some particular pages. But yes, because I think that one of the things that we really try and think about when we're creating all of the copies is starting that sales process and filtering out people that are not a good fit for you before they'll even make contact with you. Obviously not doing this from an overkill perspective, but we're trying to do that heavy lifting. We're trying to position the value that you've got to offer, the authority that you've got to offer. And because that's where we want to put the power in the hands of the person that's selling the product, if that makes sense, rather than the person that is wanting to buy the product, them having the power. Because again, when we put authority into copy, the dynamic that shifts when people are chasing you rather than you chasing them. That's something that we consciously think about all the time. So I think to answer your question is yes, we absolutely think about how do we stop or prevent you, for example, having over demanding clients or clients that don't value what you do, that are just trying to penny pinch you and they're not a good fit for you, they're going to be high maintenance. We think about all of these different things and we ask our clients, who is not a good fit for you, at what point are they at their journey, that they're going to be really hard work for you, that it's not going to be profitable, that they're going to cause you more headaches. And we think about that all the time. Again, sometimes we call it out specifically so that people can self remove themselves from, you know, they can say that they know that they're not a good. Right, right fit for you. But regardless of whether we call it out, very obviously we weave everything through the copy to go. This is going to attract the right person. Yes, it might push away others, but the ones that it's pushing away are not a good fit for us anyway.

I'd like to give a shout out as well to Greg and the team at Studio One because it was actually Greg who designed the website and built the website and he was the person who recommended you guys. But one of the things that I felt was a really powerful additional value was that you and Greg have known each other a long time, you're friends, you've worked together a lot, is that you'd write the copy and then the design team would put it into a page. But then I would be like, does this look right? And you didn't just stop it going, well, there's the copy and the word documents, off you go. You actually liaised with the team behind the scenes to get the copy looking right on the page because again, and I'm going to call it out because a lot of filmmakers will DIY things with a bit of design skill and go, well, rather than pay someone, I'll just do it myself. But I've got to say that the value of that was huge. How important is that? That the copywriter also has some influence in the way the page is laid out?

I think it has a huge, huge impact because I think there's so much that's going on with us understanding what the person needs to feel when they come to this page, what will actually get them to take action. And I think, I mean, I'm so lucky to work so closely with Studio One Design that they are experts at what they do. They know how to drive conversions. But sometimes designers don't understand how to tell the story of what you're trying to communicate from a copywriting perspective. And as I said before, and maybe I'm biased, but we have the research to back it up, is that copywriting is twice as important for conversions. And so with that in mind, you don't want the design to take away from the copy and what's actually going to get the person to take the action that you want them to take. So, yes, I work very closely with them and review a lot of stuff. We review all of the clients work that we do with, with Studio One Design. And if, if someone is, is using another designer, then that's a really important part of my process as well, that we do offer that. Because design, at the end of the day, that is what will make it look good. That's what will.

Does need to enhance the copy. And so I've seen a lot of people take copy and try and design things themselves, try to do diy and I just. The impact that it actually has that business owners are not aware of is so big that from my perspective, because I've got that expertise and I know the difference it'll make, it's a really important part of my process that it does come to life in the way that we intended it to. Because the difference between having, you know, and for video production businesses usually, you know, it's not a low price point product. Having that one extra person, those five extra people that come to your website that actually take the action you want them to take can be huge to the bottom line of a company. But then a lot of the time they think, oh, I just need to put this up. I just need to show how good my work is. And the amount of, I don't want to say damage, but the amount, well, in some cases it is damaged because they undervalue what they've got to offer that they do when they try and do it themselves without all of the sales experience. And the knowledge is, yeah, I really don't like to see it. And I know that a lot of people do do it themselves.

Yeah, I agree with you 100%. So, Jamie, if somebody wanted to work with you, what is the process like? You know, how can someone get in touch with you and begin a process of discovery with you?

Sure. So there's two ways that people typically start to engage us at the moment. So our website, savvy copy.com is a place that you can go on. You can register for a strategy sess. Basically, myself or a member of my team will jump onto a call. We'll figure out exactly what it is that you need, will come up with a game plan and work out how to really boost your online presence. So basically just having a strategy call. The second option is that we actually have, at the time of recording this, we have a free review that we offer as well to people that want to sort of have that expert opinion and guidance on what it is that they've currently got in place. Do I need an overhaul? And, you know, what do I need to do in order to attract more leads and clients and inquiries? So that's the second option that we have. If someone's feeling brave, they submit their website to us. We basically go away, do an analysis of the site, and then basically walk them through where they are right now, what they need to change in order to get the results they really want.

And guys, you know, listening or watching this, you can go to my website@denleny.com and every single word on that site has been written by Jamie and her team. So you can be the judge of what you think of it. And I can't recommend you enough, you know.

Thank you, Dan. I really appreciate it. You are certainly one of our favorite clients. I think I've told you that before.

I think their most favorite client, I think, is the phrase you're looking for.

I'm just afraid of who might listen to this.

And I'm like, well, yeah, it could be awkward.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Especially when you meet face to face. It's like, oh, your favorite client. No, I'm the favorite client. That can be, like, very messy.

Exactly right. But, yeah, look, I think that's absolutely right. I think it's worth going to your site, seeing, you know, what work was done. And, I mean, they may not have seen them before, but see if it resonates with you. See if it makes you feel like, oh, Den gets me. He gets a situation that I'm in. He's talking about the problems and pain points I feel every day. Because, yeah, Dan, I see the incredible work. Like I said, I've interviewed your clients and I've seen where people start when they start with you and they're stuck in that freelancer curse, right. And then they're able to completely transform their businesses. I've seen that. I've interviewed your clients and so, yeah, I guess it's up to the audience now to go and have a look, see, does it resonate? And you'll just see that difference between, you know, if Den had created a page that didn't really, you know, resonate with you, would you. Yeah. Be as interested.

Yeah. Cool, mate. Thank you very much.

You are so welcome. Thanks so much for having me.

Hey, guys, thanks for watching. I hope you got a huge amount of value from that episode. If you're looking for additional support or resources to support your business journey, then head over to Denleny.com where you can get a whole heap of other resources, free downloads and access all the other episodes in this series. Be sure to subscribe and I'll see you next time.