MtoM #155: Pediatric Dentist Gets Back to Broke and More and Finance 101: Ways to Earn More Money as a Doc

This is the White Coat Investor podcast. Milestones to Millionaire. Celebrating stories of success along the journey to financial freedom.

This is Milestones to Millionaire podcast. 155 Pediatric Dentist Gets Back to Broke and more. If you're finding our podcast informative and helpful, we would encourage you to sign up for our monthly newsletter. It is totally free and includes useful, actionable information not available on the regular blog posts. It's almost like being in a secret club. The kind of club that can boost your knowledge and enhance your wealth at the same time, with no strings attached. It's free. You can quit anytime. Sign up today@whitecoatinvestor.com Newsletter. You can do this and the White Coat Investor can help. This is the Milestones to Millionaire podcast. If you want to come on, you can apply whitecoatinvestor.com Milestones as you imagine, it's a big community and there's lots of people actually that want to come on. But we love celebrating all kinds of different milestones, so we encourage everybody to apply. We have a great guest today who's gotten back to broke and more, and we'd like to get her on the line, but stick around afterward. I'm going to talk about some ways that you can boost your income after we finish the interview. Let's get started. Our guest on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast today is Annie. Annie, welcome to the podcast.

Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Andy, tell us what you do for a living and where you're at in your career.

So I am a pediatric dentist and I'm about two and a half years out of training.

Okay, and over the last year or so, you've hit a number of net worth milestones. Tell us about your net worth.

Well, I recently. I checked last night that I have recently reached a net worth of $82,000.

Awesome. And what is that composed of?

So that is. Well, I initially came out of training with 365,000 in debt. So right now it's spread out between a taxable account, Roth ira. I have HSA I bonds and a high yield savings account.

Okay, so a bunch of kind of typical investments. And then you still have some debt, I assume. Right.

So I have debt from, like, I have some federal loans that are still on pause based on the save plan that I'm under. And then I have a private loan that my mom took out to kind of help me pay for dental school.

Okay, so how much debt and how much in assets?

So the debt right now is about 230 and assets is 318,000.

All right. But you really didn't have any assets when you came out of school, so your net worth was minus 365,000, right?

Yes. Yes.

And you have not only become back to broke, I think the net worth you applied to come on the podcast with was 10 grand. And now you're up over 80. So you are going the right direction. Congratulations.

Thank you so much.

You know, it's very interesting. As I mentioned before we started recording, we record these episodes sometimes weeks in advance and not necessarily in the same order they're going to run. But the person I just got off the phone with is a doc at the other end of his career with a net worth of 50 million. You know, and so the fun thing about this podcast is we can celebrate every financial milestone that people reach. And the truth is the earlier ones are the harder ones. You know, they say the first 10,000, the first hundred thousand. The first million's the hardest. And it's true, because it's all brute force savings.

Yeah.

So tell us how you did this. You went from minus 365,000 to 82,000 over the course of two and a half years. How did you do that?

Well, I will say that I started. I had a pretty good idea of my finances in college. I think when I was starting college, the finances were a huge part of it. So I definitely chose a college that I could afford. The one that gave me a lot of aid or grants, or I was able to apply for different scholarships. Doing, like, work, study, things like that allowed me to graduate from college with only about, like, 9,000 in debt, and they were subsidized loans. So I went directly to dental school after college. I didn't need. There was, like, you know, interest accruing that I needed to pay for until I had graduated dental school. So I would say definitely starting early and then choosing my dental school. I also chose a school that allowed me to be a graduate associate, which I don't think any other school allows for, but a graduate associate's kind of like an RA as a dental student. So my room and board was taken care of as long as I was, like, on campus. I got to take care of the undergraduates, like, form their community and form their college experience as well. So taking room and board out of the consideration helped a lot in terms of finances and then just making sure, like, I knew what types of loans I had and what I was actually getting into. The dental school I went to was really great, and they offered a loan advisor. When we had graduated So I was able to get into the right payment plan and things like that. And, of course, the COVID like, loan pause helped a ton in terms of the federal loans.

Yeah. I'm not getting the impression that you got much help from family with paying for your education. Is that correct?

Not in college. So my family, we came from pretty humble beginnings. Like, my mom came here, she was an English teacher, so she knew the language. But she was probably the only one in my family that did at that time. So when we first moved here, it was like, my uncles. I have many uncles, many aunts. Like, mom, we all live in one house. So, like, each family unit got, like, one room. So me, my siblings, my mom, all one room. And then eventually, like, my mom's very scrappy, so she kind of, like, got out of that situation as quickly as possible. Like, my uncles joined the military. They worked in a factory when they were here, and they've all done very well for themselves. But going to college, I would say, was basically on my own. And then starting dental school, like, we sort of had more money in the family, so then my mom helped me a little bit with her savings. But then eventually, when we were deciding what to do with the massive amount of tools, like, how much it costs to go to dental school, she took out a. Like, a HELOC loan against the home, and then she kind of helped with that. So I'd been paying that back when I graduated.

Wow.

Yeah. I would not recommend it because at the time, the interest rate was much, much lower when I had started dental school. And then now the past couple years, interest rate has rapidly increased. So having that is a little bit not ideal.

Your mother loves you very much.

She does. She loves me very much, and I love her even more. So I definitely. Like, we didn't. I wouldn't say that we were helped significantly, but having that kind of, like, support from my mom and then me being in that opportunity to be able to give that back to her is amazing. That is truly a blessing.

Yeah, that's pretty awesome. And it's also a good demonstration of how multiple generations working together have opportunities that one generation working by themselves do not have.

Exactly.

You know, her ability to access credit, which at the time was probably a better deal than the student loans you could have taken out, provided for a lower interest rate. Obviously, some risks of doing that, but, yeah, so far, it's working out great because you're paying back the loan, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're. I. I could. I'm gonna pay back the heloc.

Loan.

And I can, but my mom actually this. There's like 70,000 left on that HELOC. But so initially when she had given me the money, she had some, but then she had to take out some money for, like, renovations for the house and things. So then that 70 grand. I asked her like two days ago. I was just like, I can give you the money. Like, I could just give you the money. But she's like, no, like, I want you to, like, save it for other things. And it's like at a point where she can kind of. Kind of do it on her own right now. So eventually, like, she's like, take your time on giving me the money, maybe in like five years or so, which is all the support that I could ask for.

Sounds like a great immigrant family success story to me.

Thank you.

Are you a first generation immigrant or are you second?

I think it's considered first generation. Like my mom, when she came here.

She was quite young because you weren't born here?

No, I was born here, yeah. My mom was born.

Oh, you were born here?

Yeah, but my mom moved here, but she was quite young when she moved here. So I would say like one and a half. First and a half generation.

Very cool. Okay, so your upbringing was relatively humble, relatively modest. What lessons did you learn that have affected how you manage your money?

I definitely understood the value of money, especially since there wasn't a lot going around when I was younger. My siblings. My younger siblings maybe less so. Like, I had more.

The youngest kid's always the most spoiled one, right?

No, he's doing great. He is not spoiled by any means, but we all kind of understand, like, what it actually means to earn money and to save. So I think I definitely have. I'm definitely more of a saver than I am a spender. I wouldn't say it's necessarily like a scarcity type of mindset, but it's more like an appreciating mindset. Like, this is not always something that is guaranteed. So saving for a rainy day and understanding that loans that I take out, like, I need to pay back, like, that's not my money, is something that I definitely learned at a young age.

Being financially smart, paying off debt, you know, acquiring wealth is obviously something that's important to you. When did it become important to you? When did you become kind of. When was your financial awakening?

I would say probably when I was applying for dental school. Like, I had. I think I did pretty well in college with like, the work study and the scholarships and things like that. But I still came out with a little bit of debt. And I was grateful for, I guess, government being able to. For me to have to offset that interest until after I was done with my dental school training. But dental school was a whole different animal. Like, the amount of tuition was just astronomical, and I definitely had to be a little bit more creative in terms of which school I could afford to go to.

And the wonderful thing is you're a good enough student that you had the choice. You know, lots of people don't have a choice. They only get into one, so.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I was really, really blessed in that sense. So then considering, like, I chose that school specifically for the graduate associate position because then not having to pay for room and board was. And it's a great school. So I was really, really grateful for that.

Do you remember the feeling you had when you realized how much you were gonna have to borrow to pay for dental school?

Yes. Yeah, I was. It was. I really had to consider because I thought maybe I would have to choose my specialty different or maybe not specialized, like, just depending on. Like, I never thought I would have to consider those types of. Types of four years and future things to see whether or not this is something that I could afford to do.

Well, what kind of advice do you have for somebody that's pre dental or even in dental school or is just coming out of dental school or residency that wants to get back to broke like you have and start building wealth? What advice do you have for those people?

I would say to definitely don't ignore the finances. Like, I definitely had colleagues in dental school who were like, oh, just borrow. Like, they're giving you this much. You can borrow up to that much. That's just money. I was like, well, no, you have to pay that money back. So I definitely would not ignore the debt. I definitely got to a point where it was a little bit easier to kind of not think about it. But I'm really glad that my personality would not allow me to not think about it. So I was really grateful to kind of be plugged in with the loan advisor that the school provided kind of your last year before you graduated. And I learned lots of different tricks, like applying, like filing your taxes last year of dental school even though you have zero income, just so that when you're applying for, like, a repayment program that you have tax record, as opposed to any job that you had afterwards, and we take that tax return instead of the one where you probably need $0 in dental school. So, like, little things like that is very time sensitive. So just not ignoring that. There is this big, low cloud that's kind of over you, which is kind of easy to ignore.

Awesome. Good tips. Well, Annie, congratulations on your success. You should be very proud of what you've done. I know your mom's proud of you.

Oh, thank you.

And thanks so much for coming on the podcast and inspiring others to do what you've done.

Thank you so much. Like, I really think that what you have built has. Has helped me a lot. Like, just, I know when I graduated dental school and I was starting residency, I was like, I need to. I'm starting to make some money now. Like, I want to know where to put that money. So having found, like, the WCI community has definitely been the number one thing in terms of helping me get my finances in order as well.

Well, on behalf of the entire WCI community, I want to say to you, our pleasure. Wonderful to have you be part of us.

Thank you.

Okay. That was great. The longer I talk to her, the more I'm like, man, I want to bring my kids to see her. She should be. My dentist just has such a great demeanor and has done just great with her finances. I mean, two and a half years, that's almost a half million dollar swing in net worth. You keep doing that your whole career, you'll be doing incredibly right. Because once you get into the positive and you start getting your money, working as hard as you're working, great things happen and things really start to snowball. The first hundred thousand really is the hardest 100,000. The first 10,000 is the hardest 10,000. And getting out of that hole is the hardest part. And so one of my favorite milestones to celebrate is getting back to broke, because it really is the one that gets everybody started. All right, I promised you we were going to talk about ways to boost your income, and there's lots of ways to boost your income. I'm a big fan of ownership. When you own your job, when you own businesses, it tends to increase your income. But let's go over a few other ways that you can increase your income. The first one is just to see more patients. You work more, you see more patients per hour, work more shifts, whatever. That's a great way to boost your income. It might also induce a little bit more burnout. I just heard a funny quote on the Bogleheads forum as a doc who said, I am still a per click doctor and my wealth only grows as fast as I can work and burn out, which is a little tongue in cheek And a little sad, of course, but there's a lot of truth to that. That is the primary way for us to increase our income. If we work more, if we see more patients, we make more money. Okay, Other methods for increasing your income. You can increase administrative work. One of my partners just became the medical director in our group. And he gets paid for that. They get paid pretty well, you know. And so he's doing more work because he's doing all this admin work as the medical director and he's getting paid more for it. And so that's one way to increase your pay. Another way is to take on a side gig. This might be medically related, it might not be medically related. It could be consulting, it could be disability evaluations, it could be doing expert testimony. You know, we partner with Gretchen Green for her course on how to become a medical expert witness. It might be a hobby that becomes monetized. Like this blog, right? This blog. The White coat investor is my side gig. You know, I know we got 18 people working here and it doesn't seem like a side gig, but it still is. I still view what I do for a living as medicine, even though what I probably spend more time on now is the white coat investor. But it could be anything. You know, handyman, services, you know, being a rafting guide, whatever. A side gig is a way to make more money. Here's another one. Changing your specialty. Some specialties tend to make more money than other specialties. This is a big commitment. Go back and do a new residency, but there certainly are docs out there who have done it. If you're not in medicine, this can be a lot easier. Nurses change specialties in like two months. And same for APCs. It's relatively easy to go do something else. And that something else may pay significantly more. Here's another one. You can learn new procedures. We are not getting away from the fee for service system anytime soon. And the truth is, procedures pay more than thinking. And so adding a few new procedures to your clinical practice can increase your payment. Here's another one. Specializing in a niche. If you find a niche that's not very well served in your area, especially one that pays really well, that can really ramp up your income. You think about some of the orthopods out there, only do hips and knees or only do whatever, and that can really increase your income. When you can become very good at one thing and become very efficient at a bolt in the or add a and in your clinic. Here's another method. Expand Your team, right? If you're a dentist, get a bunch of hygienists that work underneath you. Or dental assistants, lawyers and paralegals can do this. Physicians and APCs can do this. Physicians can even have other docs work underneath them. You know, when I talk to the wealthiest doctors I've met, they tend to own practices that have multiple providers working for them. So expanding your team can increase your income. Here's another one for you employees out there, renegotiate your contract. Way too many docs are working for less than average pay. Half of you are working for less than average pay. Go get average pay. It'll increase your income. Yes, you'll have to work at least average work to get that. But negotiating your contract, making sure you're getting paid fairly goes a long way. Here's another one. You can invest getting some passive income, whether that is in rental properties, whether that's in private syndications or funds, whether that's in index funds, whether that's just in bonds or these days, you can make 5% plus just in a money market fund. Investing money is a way to increase your income. You don't have to reinvest the income from your investments. You can actually spend it if you want, and that increases your income. That allows you to pay off debt or invest more money or spend more money or whatever. Here's another one. You can move to a larger practice. If you go to a practice that's just run more efficiently, or a lot of times you can make more money. This is the reason why a lot of primary care docs have sold their practices off to a hospital. It turns out that when they banded together with a bunch of other docs, when they banded together with a bigger organization, they actually made more. It wasn't about the buyout price, it was about increasing their income. Okay, here's another one. Academics are still in general paid less than private practice. So if you want to boost your income, you can leave academic medicine. That is an option. Here's another one. You know, you're pretty good at learning. You're pretty good at test taking. Sometimes getting another degree can increase your income. Be careful with this. There's plenty of degrees that cost a lot of money and time and won't increase your income. But maybe getting an MBA or something and allows you to move into more leadership positions that might pay more would be an example of a degree that could increase your income. Another method is to go cash only. Imagine if you didn't have to deal with insurance, a concierge practice or some sort of doctors for patient care or cash only practice where you cut the insurance person out. You might be able to give your patients a better deal and make more money yourself. That's kind of a win win situation. Win, win, lose, lose for the insurance companies, I guess. But I don't feel too badly about that. Here's another one. Geographic arbitrage. Move from a low income, high cost of living, high tax area to a high income, low cost of living, low tax area. Yes, it means you might not be able to live in the Bay Area anymore, but you're going to increase your income almost surely by leaving. How about increasing ancillary services, right? Offering labs or X rays or meds or whatever is legally allowed in your practice and ethical is a great way to increase your income. It's a little bit like owning the surgical center that you operate in, right? You're not only being paid to do the surgery, you're being paid the facility fee as well. One last one is taking surveys, right? Super low commitment. We've got a link. Go to whitecoatinvestor.com mdsurveys and we've got a number of companies that we partner with that want your opinion and they'll pay you for it. And you can do this while you're sitting on the train going into work or while you're sitting there vegging and, you know, watching a little TV at night or whatever. You can actually get paid for that time. One of our columnists made as much as $30,000 a year just taking these surveys and it's a good option to consider. All right, so lots of ways you can boost your income. Hope that's helpful to you. You know, it's just easier to save more money and it's easier to pay off debt and it's easier to build wealth when your income is higher. You got to be careful. You don't want to burn out. Life isn't all about making more money. Life isn't all about your finances. But there are a lot of seasons of our lives where having additional income can be very helpful. If you're finding our podcast informative and helpful, we would encourage you to sign up for our monthly newsletter. It's totally free, includes useful, actionable information not available on the regular blog posts. It's almost like being in a secret club. The kind of club that can boost your knowledge and enhance your wealth at the same time, with no strings attached. Sign up today@whitecoatinvestor.com newsletter. You can do this and the White Coat Investor can help. We'll see you next time on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast.

The hosts of the White Coat Investor are not licensed accountants, attorneys or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.