WCI #244: The Finances of Professional Cyclists

This is the White Coat Investor podcast where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011. Here is your host, Dr. Jim Dahli. This is White Coat Investor podcast 244. The finances of professional cyclists. Still not sure what to do with your student loans or overwhelmed with how to tackle that giant debt? In an ever changing political climate, the experts@studentloanadvice.com are here to help guide you through the best options to manage your loans. Our experienced staff have consulted on over $250 million in student loan debt, and the average student loanadvice.com client has saved over $190,000. You will receive a customized student loan plan using the principles of the White Coat Investor, get answers to all of your student loan questions, gain clarity about your financial future, and start down the right path toward financial freedom. Book a consult today@studentloanadvice.com you can do this, and the White Coat Investor can help. All right, welcome back to the podcast. New year, new you. Right? So let me give some accountability, right? It's time when we're setting goals for the year. Our financial goal for last year was to do our estate planning. And as I record this on December 2nd, I'm pleased to announce that we actually did our financial goal. We signed our will and formed a trust, et cetera, just signed this morning. So I'm proud to say we've accomplished our financial goal for the year. I hope you were also able to accomplish yours for 2021 and that you're setting one as well for 2022. Thanks so much for what you do.

By the way.

It's another year, another year of practicing medicine for a lot of you and another year in the pandemic. We will soon be into our third year of this pandemic, and although in some respects it's winding down, in others it isn't. So thanks for putting up with it and for persevering even those of you who aren't in medicine. It's a lot of hassle to try to live your life a little bit differently, to reduce risk for yourselves and others. So thanks for doing that. All right. Our quote of the day today is from Lance Armstrong. He said, it's liberation, independence. Your first set of wheels. A bike is freedom to roam without rules and without adults. And I know that's the way I felt when I had a bike as a kid, riding around my neighborhood. You know, it seems like kids are a little more supervised these days, but not necessarily, you know, in good ways. Sometimes it was good to be out there by ourselves, roaming the neighborhood in our bike gangs, if you will. We want you to be successful. So we're giving anyone who refinances more than $60,000 in student loans through the WCI links free access to our flagship online course Fire your financial Advisor a step by step guide to creating your own financial plan. If your goal for this year is to get your financial plan and your goal is also to refinance your student loans, this is a great opportunity for you. You get the amazing cash rebates that we've negotiated, plus another $799 in value. That's what the course costs. So join more than 5,000 other professionals who've created their own financial plan with the help of the White Coat investor. Just go to whitecoatinvestor.com student loan refinancing. You can refinance your student loans. You get the cash back. You also get free Fire your own financial advisor if you go through those links and refinance more than $60,000 in loans. Now I got to read the fine print here. My COO says I have to the free course offer is valid for loan applications submitted from May 1, 2021 through January 31, 2022. Course must be claimed within 90 days of loan disbursement. If you're already a customer of one of our partners, you may need to refi with a new partner in order to as a WCI reader and be eligible for the free course. All right, now we're through that. We have an awesome guest today that I have been looking forward to getting on the podcast for a number of months this year. I mentioned him earlier in the year. Let's get him on the line. All right, our special guest today is Tom Skuinch. Toms is a professional cyclist, an avid podcast listener, and a white coat investor. Earlier this year he sent me a thank you email for the podcast. He said, Just finished listening to the latest Milestones to Millionaires and episode number 16, I wanted to send a small email to thank you for what you're doing. I'm actually not a doctor, nor is my spouse, but I am a professional cyclist riding on Trek Segafredo and I'm marrying an American. Even though a lot of things you teach do not apply to me, they do give me ideas, understanding and inspiration on how to manage my future and the very overwhelming US Tax system that as a non American Seems a little insane. There are quite a few similarities in the professions that I have found and truly just wanted to say thank you for all the info you give out. So I get this email and I'm floored because I'm a big cycling fan. So I knew exactly who Toms was, even if our podcast producer Cindy didn't. Cycling is much bigger in Europe than it is in the US And Tom's race is at the highest level. Let me explain. Toms is currently the best cyclist in Latvia, and not just one discipline, but two. He's been the Latvian national time trial champion and the national road race champion twice. He's been the Latvian Cyclist of the Year four times. And, you know, my guess is he's going to win again this year. He's completed the Tour de France four times during his career. He's mostly raced on American teams such as Cannondale and Trek Segafredo. He's raced in most of the biggest races in the world. Last year, he nearly won a stage of the Tour de France. He's worn the polka dot jersey there several days as the best climber. This year, he was in the lead group until late in the race in what I considered the best race of the year, an ultra muddy Paris Roubaix. He's also an Olympian, competing in both the road race and the time trial this year in Tokyo. Most importantly, he's ridden right by my house in the Tour of Utah back in 2014. So I'm hoping he'll come back for a future edition of that ra even if he remembers that day as a nightmare. Toms, welcome to the podcast.

Thanks for having me, Jim. And thank you for all the little lowdown on the results. Cause sometimes I forget them myself.

Well, you're doing great. You're having a wonderful career. Today we're going to talk about the finances of professional athletes and specifically cyclists. But before we do that, give me just a minute to fanboy a little more and ask a few questions about your season. So what was your favorite race this year?

I mean, like you said, Roubaix was definitely one of the highlights. It was my first one ever, and I think it was an addition a lot of people will remember. But at the same time, yeah, Olympics don't happen that often. And Tokyo in general, Japan, I mean, is super nice. And it's always nice to go there. So that's. I think for me, that trumps Roubaix. But just personal experience also got to mention Worlds this year, which was in the heart of cycling in Belgium. And that was kind of like riding through a stadium. If road cycling ever had a stadium. It was. It was there for sure.

Yeah, it was a pretty impressive how many people turned out for that race, for sure. So what's your biggest goal in cycling? If you could accomplish one major goal, what would it be?

I mean, that. That's a really hard question. Just because sometimes dreams are goals and goals turn into dreams. Or one way or the other. Because obviously I don't think I'll ever win the Tour de France because that's just not what my genes will allow me. But if I was to retire at the LA Olympics in 2028, then I would call it a very successful career for sure.

Awesome. So let's talk about Paris Roubaix. A lot of people in the US that listen to this podcast don't know a lot about this race, but this is a race that has a number of segments, approximately 30 segments of cobbles, big old stones you got to race your bike over. And this year it was raining all night and into the beginning of the race. And so all these cobbles were covered in mud. And you were doing great in the race with 80km to go. First time doing this race where experience really matters. But your first time with 80km to go, you were in the lead group of just 19 riders out of the original 200 or so. Then you guys hit Cobble Sector 17, a four star section of cobblestones covered in mud. As near as I can tell, someone punctured, there was a crash and the whole group splintered, never to come back together again. I'd love to hear what happened in your words in that race, if you remember that moment when it blew up.

Yeah, I mean, that race in general is crazy, but as you said, this year just with the mod, went up a notch. Personally, the problem was that I had a really bad stomach and I actually didn't get necessarily dropped because of not being able to ride as fast, but I just had to do a pit stop on the roadside and luckily the team car was not too far, so I got even some toilet paper. But that happens when there's so much mud and cow manure on the roads that, I mean, you're gonna ingest it eventually. Yeah, it really depends on when your stomach's gonna give out, if it's gonna give out. And in my case, unfortunately, that was the moment when we were still. Yeah, less than 20 guys left in a great spot. But when you gotta go, you gotta go.

Yeah. That reminds me of a moment in the Giro a few Years ago when the leader of the race had to pull off to the side of the road and drop them just to go right there. So there's definitely a lot of difficulty in cycling sometimes when you combine it with biology and a six hour race. So when you got into pro cycling, what surprised you the most?

I mean, I think what surprised me the most was just how much logistics go into like one team, because one team is 30 riders, but we probably have tripled amount of staff behind the 30 riders with one years. Directors, mechanics, people doing logistics, people planning trips, people planning camps, coaches, everything, chefs, nutritionists and so on. So it is, yeah, you see only eight riders, let's say, starting the Tour. But behind those eight is a whole, a whole lot of people that actually make that happen.

Well, it's the financial podcast, so we better cover some financial material now, compared to football, whether we're talking about the real football as you know it in Europe or American football, cycling is a relatively low budget sport. The richest team in cycling has an annual budget of just 50 million euros. And for those who aren't familiar with the exchange rate, right now, a dollar is about 0.88 Euros. By comparison, the New England Patriots football team have half a billion dollars of revenue per year. In the teams in the Tour de France this year, budgets range from $7.5 million to $50 million. Your team, Trek Segafredo has an annual budget of just 14 million euros for all 27 riders, the sports directors, all the support staff, all the bikes and equipment, and all the travel costs. That's not a lot of money. Can you describe for us the typical salaries for cyclists in each of the following categories? And you can use dollars or euros, whatever. But let's talk about first, the lowest professional tier, the Continental riders. I understand there's not even a minimum salary at that level, is that right? What do those guys typically get paid?

Yeah, I mean, Conti riders don't really have a minimum salary and it's kind of like the. I would still call them amateurs, even though they are sometimes even racing with us. Because some of those guys, yeah, they don't get paid. They do it as more for fun, but it is mostly a development level, let's say where some riders are maybe 18, just out of high school or still in high school. And I mean, they obviously don't get any money, but sometimes, yeah, maybe. Best Conti riders will make 15, 20,000 if they're on a really good Conti team that has a really good system under it and have the potential, have A big role in the team. Be that a. A big role where they help the young kids understand cycling or that they're one of the bright stars on the team that will go on to do a lot of good things. But, yeah, in general, the. When I was riding for a Conti team, I was riding for nothing.

And were you actually paying to ride, or did they at least cover your costs?

No, actually, we. I mean, the system was pretty good. We did get even, like, sort of stipends when we were at camps, and all the equipment and everything was given. So, I mean, at the end of the day, you have zero expenses. Some Conti teams even provide a team house, so you actually have zero expenses. Maybe they even give you money for food or whatever. But, yeah, you don't really save up on that.

Yeah, for sure. Okay. The next tier up is the pro Continental riders, where the minimum salary is about $39,000. Is that what most cyclists at that level make or do? A lot of them make more than.

That, like with Conti teams. Actually, the Pro Conti, Pro Tour and Pro Team, like I think they are called, the. The range is quite big. There's definitely quite a few guys that ride for the minimum amount. But then again, you have big star riders that are over a million million dollars, million euros, whatever, because those teams also race the Tour de France. For example, Atkea Samsik is one of the Pro Conti teams that has done the Tour, and they definitely have at least two riders that make over a million euros. For sure.

Yeah. So definitely a big range there. So the top tier where you're at is the Pro Tour. There's a minimum salary here of $47,000. Now, obviously, the biggest stars make a lot more than that. The top Tour de France General Classification riders reportedly make between 2 and 6 million euros a year, but that's only the top 10 or 20 out of 300 to 500 riders in the pro peloton. What does the rest of the peloton earn as a salary? Say there's a domestique good enough to go to the Tour. Obviously they're not racing to win it, but they're good enough to go to the Tour. What type of range of salaries would they see?

Again, the range is very, very big. And even though the. Maybe average salaries look very good on paper, the average salaries are bumped up by those 20 guys that make over 2 million. Because I am 100% positive that there's guys doing the Tour with less making less than €80,000. I'm sure that Every once in a while there's also someone that is making minimum and going to the Tour just because they are good and the team picked them up for nothing. Especially in a year where maybe a team was folding or a few teams folding and they had nowhere else to go but to that one team and ride for whatever they can get.

How's that feel to be on a team when you know there's other people on the team making many multiples of what you're making to feel like you're riding for nothing? Are you just kind of hoping for a better contract the next time you negotiate it at that point?

I mean, actually I don't think about it that much. Usually the salary amount is correlated to the results or your value in the team. So you just know that if you prove that you're worth a better contract, that if you are a team player or if you, I mean, gonna win the Tour de France in two years time, then your salary will increase quite considerably. And yeah, you just want to do your best in order to prove that and hopefully make more money next time. Yeah.

Now, on a team with 27 or 30 riders, only eight of them go to the Tour. So for say, you know, a domestique that's not, maybe not necessarily good enough to go to the Tour, is not a, you know, a champion Classics rider is not a champion time trialist. What kind of money do they make? Are they most of them typically pretty close to the minimum $47,000?

I think it would probably be a bit more than that. The very minimum is usually reserved for the young guys coming in, but I'd say the riders that are maybe in the range of the 25 to the 30 in the team ranking, let's say if there was one, they'd probably be around 80 to €150,000, I'd say.

How about the people that aren't the general classification writers? Let's say somebody who gets multiple top fives, top 10s in the classics, or occasionally wins a time trial, but maybe doesn't even go to the Tour is definitely not a general classification writer. But people we've heard of. Right? What kind of incomes do they have?

Yeah, I mean, some of the names would. Some of the names people would know that are in the top 10 in classics, the range again would be very dependent on how old they are, where they're going, which direction their career is progressing. But I'd say, yeah, between 200 and.

800,000, maybe kind of doctor salaries.

Yeah, let's say they're the doctors of the peloton.

Now, there are other sources of income for cyclists, such as endorsements. Do most pro cyclists get endorsement deals or is that really only the top five or ten folks?

Actually, it's very rare for cyclists to get endorsements just because our team has a lot of sponsors and you cannot have an endorsement from a conflicting sponsor. So if I'm on Trek Segu Prieto and I'm riding for Trek, riding Trek bikes, it'd be pretty bad if suddenly I was endorsed by or endorsing factor bikes or canyon based bikes or whatever else you want to see.

Now, there are a few people on the peloton that got in a little bit of trouble in the last month or so because they were spotted riding bikes that were not the sponsor of the team. How big of a deal is that for them? How much money do you think that decision decision cost them?

I think at the end of the day, it didn't cost them anything. But the team needed to show their sponsors that they're not just letting anyone ride any other bikes. The reason why they were riding bikes is obviously because they're switching teams for next year. And when you switch teams, I mean, you already in November, usually start riding the new team's bike just because you need to get used to it. And there's always a debate, shouldn't we have contracts that run January 1st till October 31st, just because then in November, December people can already ride their new team bikes and not get into these issues.

Is that hard to switch bikes like that to switch to a new brand of bike?

It really depends. There's some bikes that are easier to switch to, especially if you're going up. Always easier to switch to. When you're suddenly, oh, I'm riding way faster, it's great. But yeah, if you. There's definitely, there's definitely differences in bikes and it definitely gets some time to get used to it. And it's not just the frame of the bike, but it's just like maybe the handlebars are different. Maybe you're changing from SRAM to Shimano or the other way around. And those hoods are different. So there are some details that are more important than others. And I think sometimes actually even changing pedals is even more difficult than changing them by frame.

So let's talk about another source of income for cyclists, prize money. Can you explain how the prize money works? I understand a lot of top riders share a portion of it with the other members that are team in that race. How does that all work?

So there's kind of two ways that it works. One way is where all the prize money at the end of the year gets collected and just spread out through all the riders and also staff. Or the other way, the way we do it, is that from every race, we have a certain percentage of the whole prize money that goes to staff. If I'm not mistaken, I think we give staff 15%, and then the rest of the money gets separated into equal parts for all the riders that were at that race. So that gives you an incentive to actually help the leader and make sure that he is in the best possible way. Because when he makes money, you make money.

It's true. Professionals, right?

Yeah.

All right, let's talk about money. Do you guys all know what everybody else in the peloton is making? I mean, is that what you talk about in the peloton for that 100km after the break goes away, that nobody seems to be doing anything, or is it a big secret? Is it a taboo topic? Or how is that in the peloton?

It is definitely more secretive than in soccer or football just because there you see the numbers, and everyone knows the numbers. But there's always rumors that flow around, and it's like, yeah, I think this guy's making this much, and, oh, have you heard how much this guy's overpaid? Or did you hear that this guy winning the Tour de France stages was riding for pennies and blah, blah, blah. So there's always some rumors, but to no concrete numbers. You never know. And for sure, people like to spread rumors.

Now, the best value in cyclists this year, as far as how much it cost to buy the cyclist and results, was probably Mark Cavendish. I would gu. What do people think about the value he provided to his team this year? Do they feel like he got ripped off with his contract? Or what do people think about that?

I mean, I think that if he was on any other team, he would have a hard time winning as much. So I think that's why also, quickstep could offer him such a low salary because he would make up the money in bonuses or prize money or whatever. But, yeah, I don't think on any other team who would win as many races.

Yeah, for sure, he came into a good setup there, especially for the Tour de France. All right. Are cyclists generally good with money since they have to come from a pretty frugal background in the earlier years, or are they like doctors and spend like they'll be making big bucks for the rest of their life?

I think it's more Likely they spend like they're going to be making the same money their whole life. Unfortunately, I think that's how all humans work. They just see the money coming in and they're like, oh, man, this is great. I can spend it all. But I don't really think about the future. So it's definitely, definitely a little issue. I think I've seen heard at least some riders run into financial difficulty that definitely should have been able to retire at the end of their careers. But, yeah, that's, I think, human nature.

Yeah, it certainly happens a lot with other athletes. You know, in a lot of ways, athletes and artists are similar to doctors in that they make a lot of money because of some special skill they have or because of, you know, a special body of knowledge that they have, and not necessarily because they're good at managing money or because they're good businessmen. What other parallels do you see between athletes and doctors in that way?

Before I talk about parallels, the biggest, I think, difference is that doctors can work until they're 65. Athletes usually cannot. Unless you're playing chess or shooting or doing something like that, then you probably are done at the age of 40, unless you're a guy like Valverde that rides until he's probably 60. But, yeah, the similarities for sure are that you make a lot of money very early on and you're not always sure what to do with it. Luckily, we don't usually have student loans because we're all dummies usually and don't go to college or anything. Some do, but most, like me, do not really. Yeah, there's definitely some similarities, but also some big differences that end up changing how you should actually manage your money.

Now, you listen to this podcast, so you have at least some interest in learning finance and learning money. Where did that come from? How did you get interested in learning about finance?

I mean, I grew up with not that much, and it was always about saving and making sure that you're not spending on stupid stuff. So I always was kind of cautious with money. But then, yeah, once I actually started making enough to save, save as well for something, then I realized that I should make the most of it and make sure I save enough that after I retire, whenever that be that I don't need to get a job, like the next day.

How does that feel, knowing if you're like most professional cyclists, you probably only got, you know, despite being a young person, you know, you're about the age a lot of people come out of residency at. You've only got five or 10 years of your career left ahead of you? Do you feel that pressure hanging over your head to save for retirement?

It's more about, yeah, just making sure that I'm not wasting money, really. It's making sure that I'm using the opportunities I get where I can save and where I can make sure that I. My goal actually in general with my career is that if I were to buy a house at the end of my career and not have a mortgage, that'd be great. That's. That's the end all, be all. And then I know that I can work whatever work I please, really, and not worry about paying the mortgage every single day.

Yeah. So when did you realize that you're going to be able to make a living from riding your bike? And what did that feel like to know that you could make a living doing something you love?

I actually think that it is fairly recent just because up until maybe 2018 I was, I mean, I was making okay money, but it was never something that I could. All right, I will put like half of what I earn in a savings account or whatever. It was never that much money to save because I always wanted to make sure that I give myself the best opportunity to progress and spend money on training camps, which is just, yeah, invest in myself, let's say, before I invest in stocks. So it's actually I've been last maybe three, four years that. But I realized that I might be able to at the end of my career, buy a house and not have.

To have a mortgage, which can be a big deal. In Europe. A lot of houses are really expensive over there. There's a few countries where there's 50 year mortgages, so that's no small feat. Now, is there any financial education and training aimed at cyclists or are they pretty much on their own?

It's pretty bad, actually. There's definitely not that much financial education that goes towards cyclists. And I think that's also the reason why cyclists are so easy spending with their money. There are some guides, some people that try to guide and actually last year they started a pro cyclist foundation which is with intent of helping cyclists manage their money, but also just guide them in general and help younger guys in the U.S. let's say, go abroad and have some guidance and know what they're doing. And so that's kind of the first thing that really has come up that will help guide cyclists on the right path. Be that with mental well being or financial well being or whatever.

That's good. The, the National Football League here in The US has a similar program. When rookies come in, they have to go to this, this course, this class for, I think it's a week where they basically are taught some basics of finance and they're hoping to keep them from being taken advantage agents or financial professionals or their friends or whatever. Now, doctors tend to feel like they've got a target on their back. Like there are financial professionals, salesmen that are aiming at them, that they're trying to take advantage of them and their incomes. Are there financial professionals out there trying to take advantage of young cyclists that are making good money?

Yeah, for sure. There are. All cyclists have agents, and some are better than others, as in, some are fairly protective and actually help the riders with financial decisions. And there's definitely some that want to line their pockets with as much money as they can.

So let's talk a little bit about that. Let's talk about contract negotiations. Do you ever get involved or you just let your agent take care of it? I mean, are the negotiations adversarial or are they relatively friendly? How does that work?

I think I've been fairly lucky up until now with the teams I've been writing for. And it's always been a friendly manner, and it's always been, I mean, just. Yeah, a good relationship. So always the negotiations are fair, and especially now with Trek, because Trek, the company is so involved that they make sure they hire the people that actually care and they take care of their people. So it's like last contract I actually negotiated myself, sort of, but, I mean, there was not much negotiation. I was just happy that they would resign me with all that was going on in the world. But in general, yeah, the general manager is very fair to us, and then you know that you're valued in the team, and that is always nice. So you. You hope that you can stay.

So what is. What's an agent's cut? How does an agent get paid? Do they get 10% of. Of the contract or how does the agent get paid?

Yeah, I mean, the agent. My agent, actually, Andrew, he always has helped me with contracts, and even this meeting, he just helped set up logistically, and he told me what to expect and whatnot. But the cut usually ranges from, let's say, 3% to 10%.

Now, you race all over the world. I mean, in a given year, you might race in 12 or 15 countries. How many different countries do you have to pay taxes in?

Well, we actually pay taxes in the country we reside in. That's kind of the way Europe works. I know in the States, it's a lot more complicated where you pay. I've heard people pay taxes and how many games they play where, which is just insanity. But, yeah, it's just wherever you reside.

You pay taxes and your residence is in Latvia or. Where's your residence right now?

My residence since last year actually is in Andorra. We started slowly moving over there. I never spent enough time in Latvia to actually be there enough. And the winters there are pretty bad. Like right now, there's quite a bit of snow already. And last year there was snow all the way until April, where you're already racing all the biggest races. So it's not the best training grounds. So that's kind of why I've moved out of the country for a while now.

Now I was just in Andorra for the first time in my life a couple of weeks ago. I should have emailed you and seen if you were there at the time. Beautiful place, incredible place. It's really different from going across the border from rural Spain or rural France into Andorra. It's an impressive little place and tons of tax benefits of living there. Is that why a lot of cyclists live in Andorra? Aside from the fact that there's all these great mountain passes to climb there?

Yeah, the tax benefits are definitely a help as well, and. Well, more so for. That's why a lot of cyclists move to Monaco, because zero tax there. So you're spending money elsewhere, you're spending money on your apartment, but yeah, at least you're not paying any income tax. But endor, I mean, it's still. Yeah, it's still very low taxes, and that definitely helps. But also the way residency works. And right now, for example, the reason. One of the reasons we moved to Andorra is just because it was easier for me to get residency and thus my wife to get residency there. Because, I mean, obviously as an American, you can only spend certain amount of days. But now that we're married, getting residency there for both of us was pretty simple and they were very open about it. So that's kind of also why we moved there. And she loves snow. She actually grew up in Colorado, so first time we drove up, she was actually already crying because of the amount of snow that was there. And she was so happy that she could finally ski again.

Yeah, it looks like the skiing there is great. We got out of the country right during the first snow, actually went over a pass while it was snowing to get out of the country a few weeks ago. And you could see all the awesome ski terrain up There, So it looks a great place for skiing. So how do you save for retirement? Does Trek offer a 401k or something similar? Or are you just kind of on your own to go find your own investments?

It is very much on your own, just because even though Trek is a US based company, my salary comes from Belgium because that's where kind of the headquarters of the team is. Just because Belgium is way easier to get to every race and so on. And there's a service course there with all the extra bikes and extra buses and extra cars and whatnot. But we are also, most of the cyclists are also self employed, which means that, yeah, you have to take care of your own insurance, you have to take care of paying your own taxes. The employer doesn't pay your taxes for you. And yeah, that's kind of why it's always kind of on you to decide what you want to do with your money. And that's why people like spending their money.

So what options do you have as a European to invest? I mean, do you invest in mutual funds or what do you typically do?

The options actually are pretty similar to the US however, they are usually a bit more expensive in management fees. So it is always hard to find something that's good, especially actually in Latvia. Saving for retirement in Latvia is really hard just because the market is so small and people are not that well educated. So the system is, it needs some revision and luckily it's going that way and luckily it's getting better and now the fees are way smaller and you actually are actually making money, as in when you retire, you take out more than you've put in, but it used to not be that way 10 years ago.

That's good to hear. That's improving. What, what does retirement look like for you? I mean, what do you plan to do after you retire from cycling? Are you going to start a, you know, you're a big fan of potatoes, you're going to start a potato farm or where do you go from this after, after you leave pro cycling?

Well, the first decision for us was always, where are we going to live? And it will be the US of A. Just because Abby is very close with her family and it's definitely a lot easier for me to integrate into the US than for her to integrate into Latvia. The language is quite complicated to begin with, so that would be a huge step for her to manage. But I was talking about the dream scenario is having a house paid down and not actually having to work a full time job if I want to. Sure. Why not? But I would really like to take my kids to school and pick them up and be at their recitals and be at their football games or whatever and just be fairly involved in their lives and not have to work every single day, nine to five in an office and closed doors.

Sounds like you're a real fire proponent. Financial independence. Retire early. I mean, you talk exactly like these people that go into tech and then retire at 30 or 40, and so they can do whatever they want with their life. So it's pretty awesome to see a new pathway through professional sports to that lifestyle.

I mean, it would be great. I don't know if I'm gonna make as much money as they do in tech, but, yeah, that would be the dream for sure.

Now you're not gonna have any trouble moving to the U.S. your English is spectacular. I assume you grew up speaking English as a second language and learned it in school, or did you just learn it since you. Since you left Latvia?

Well, I learned my first English. I learned from watching Cartoon Network as a kid. But in general, yeah, they teach English in school. Yeah, all through high school. By the end of high school, usually you speak actually two foreign languages, sometimes three, if you're very keen on languages and want to pursue that. But I definitely got rid of my accent a bit more, even though it's still there. But when I wrote for George Hincapi's team for two years in 2014, 2015, that's kind of where the accent slowly started fading away. Just because I heard more American English and. Yeah. Tried to replicate it, sort of.

So how many different languages do you give interviews to the press in?

Well, I could do it in four, but not that many Russian news outlets want to speak to me.

So Russian, Latvian, I assume.

Yeah.

English. What else do you speak?

English and French.

French. Okay. Very cool. So, you know, you always wonder when you're looking at people racing and you wonder, there's probably a few jerks in the peloton, and there's probably some really nice people in the peloton. I'm not going to ask you about the jerks, but who are the nicest people in the peloton that people might not realize they're really great nice people.

There's definitely quite a few really nice guys in the peloton, but. But if I have to go with, like, some big names, then I would say Boaten Bernard is actually a super nice guy. Primo Roglic is also a super nice guy. And the latest tour winner, Tade is also very, very Nice, actually. Yeah, they all seem fairly down Earth. They don't think that they're better than every single one of us that are riding next to them. Yeah, they're just good humans.

So what do you guys talk about in the peloton when you're riding along at, you know, 40 kilometers an hour? I always see people just chatting it up. What are you talking about?

I mean, like you said, sometimes just rumor talk about contracts and stuff. Sometimes it's like high school talk of, oh, did you see this guy did this and this, or did you see he's dating this and this now and then? Sometimes we're just like children or at the same time. There's obviously some car talk, some fancy watch talk and where people spend their money talk.

Just depends. Just a group of people like anybody else.

Yep. Yeah, pretty much.

Awesome. Well, you've got the year of 30 to 40,000 high earners like yourself. Most of them are doctors, but many of them are not. What have we not talked about today that you think they should know?

Well, I think we covered a lot and you cover a lot every single day or every single podcast. But I think that people sometimes forget that you don't want to just be spending your life making money. You actually want to do something that is close to your heart. And I mean, I wouldn't be doing cycling just for the money, for sure. I'd find some other way to make enough to live off. But yeah, I think it's worth doing what you love and even, let's say saving the money from what you're doing. Just so either you can do it more or you can do it more on your terms. Just because even though you're loving what you're doing right now, maybe it's gonna change and you'll want to spend more time with your family or you want to maybe try something else. So I'd suggest everyone to think about saving enough money that they can be their own boss. And yeah, just make sure that they are actually doing what they want.

Awesome. Great advice. This has been wonderful chatting with you. It's really fun to get an insider's view of a sport I've been watching for a long time and I sure appreciate you reaching out to us and getting involved with the podcast. Tom Skuinch, we are grateful for you and congratulations on your success both in cycling and in life and with your finances. And thanks for coming on the podcast.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for all that you do. And I'll keep listening for sure.

Well, thank you for indulging me and coming along on that interview. The fun part about having your own podcast is you get to interview whoever you want as long as you can talk them into coming on the podcast. And so a lot of times that means I get to talk to someone that I just really want to talk to. And we decided to record it, so that was really fun for me. I hope you enjoyed it as well. It's a scary thing to be a professional athlete. I was watching Moneyball again the other day. I don't know if you've seen that. This is the one about the Oakland A's baseball and, you know, really applying economics to the sport of baseball. But one of the interesting things about it was just watching them, you know, basically fire and trade players. You know, that as a professional athlete, you're a commodity in some ways and you get traded around. And that happens in cycling as well. And as much as, you know, doctors don't like being bossed around by their employers, hospitals, groups, whatever. Imagine if you could just be out of work because they don't want you anymore, you know, and so I think there's a lot of pressure in being a professional athlete and a lot of need to manage your money well because you really don't know when that income stream is going to end. Lots of similarities with medicine as well, but certainly a few differences, too. All right. Andrew Paulson is a lead student loan consultant and co founder of studentloanadvice.com, with a master's degree in accounting and a certified student loan professional designation. From Andrew, you'll receive a customized student loan plan using the principles of the White Coat investors, saving you hours of research and stress, and potentially save hundreds to thousands of dollars. Andrew can get you answers to all of your student loan questions, clarify about your financial future, and start you down the right path towards financial independence. You can book a consult with Andrew today@studentloanadvice.com Don't forget, by the way, if you have student loans, particularly federal student loans, the student loan holiday ends at the end of this month. After January 31st, not only do you have to start making payments again, but interest starts counting again, which is fine if you're going for public service loan forgiveness, right? But if you're actually paying back your student loans, it's time to start thinking about refinancing again. For those federal student loans, if you go through the links at the White Coat Investor site, just go to the recommended tab and the first thing on it is student loan refinancing companies that we recommend. 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You know you're not going to be financially independent immediately, but just getting on the pathway to getting there relieves a lot of stress in your life. I truly believe that if you get your financial ducks in a row, you're going to be a better partner, you're going to be a better parent, you're going to be a better practitioner. So thanks for what you're doing. Make sure you take care of the finances, set your financial goal for the year. I know you can accomplish it. Keep your head up, shoulders back. You've got this and we can help. We'll see you next time on the White Coat Investor Podcast.

My dad, your host, Dr. Daly, is a practicing emergency physician, blogger, author and podcaster. He is not a licensed accountant, attorney or financial advisor. So this podcast is for your entertainment and information only and should not be considered official personalized financial advice.