WCI #71: An Interview with Nii Darko from Docs Outside the Box

This is the White Coat Investor podcast where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011. Here's your host, Dr. Jim Dahli. Welcome to podcast episode number 71, Docs Outside the Box. If you're like most doctors, nobody taught you anything about personal finance or investing during your undergrad, professional school or residency. Even though your family and perhaps even your business rely on you to be the chief financial officer, you have never been given the tools to succeed. Enroll in WCI Financial Bootcamp, a free educational email series, and learn to convert your high income to wealth. You will learn the basics of investing, saving, insurance and more. Your high income alone will not lead to financial success, but as always, we want to help you on your financial journey. Go to whitecoatinvestor.com financialbootcamp to sign up today. You can do this and the White Coat Investor can help. Thank you so much for what you do. I know you're on your way into work, your way home, or out exercising or whatever, and I just wanted to say thanks. I appreciate the work that has gone into becoming what you are. You missed a lot of weddings, a lot of other opportunities, a lot of vacations, a lot of birthdays, a lot of anniversaries because you decided to study and you decided to go through residency and fellowship and you decided to do something different with your life. And it's about time somebody said, thanks, hey, thanks for what you did. I know a lot of times coming out of training, a lot of us feel like we put our life on hold for three to seven years. And it's really true in a lot of ways and it's a big sacrifice. So thank you for doing that. Our quote of the day today comes from Deidre McCloskey who said, for reasons I have never understood, people like to hear that the world is going to hell. And it's totally true. You know, pessimism sounds so sexy, but don't get sucked into that. You know, optimism turns out to be the right answer most of the time. Most of the time. The world is gradually improving as we go along. Today we have a special interview. Let's get into it. All right, we've got a special guest today on the White Coat Investor podcast. We have Dr. Ni Darko here, a trauma surgeon who lives in New Jersey, practices in Pennsylvan and has done something really special at a podcast called Docs Outside the Box. Welcome to the White Coat Investor podcast. Nee.

Hey, thank you for having me on the show. Really feel like I made it. Thank you.

Like you made it. You know, I feel like I made it when I got on your podcast because I'm like, wow, this guy does such a better podcast than I do.

Hey, we all got our talents. You know, obviously, you're amazing. You're amazing podcaster now. But, you know, obviously at the time your blog was. Or your blog is, you know, the. The. The. At the zenith of personal finance for physicians and stuff, so I was just happy that you said yes. So I just wanted to appreciate you. Thank you for giving me a chance of coming on my show when I didn't have much of a pedigree. So thank you for that.

Yeah, it's. It's a lot of fun to go out on podcasts. They're almost recreational compared to having come up with blog posts. But I'll be honest, I like writing better than I like podcasting. So really, it's totally surprised me just how many people actually listen to the podcast. But I'm glad you're all here, so thanks for listening. Don't go away or anything, but I'm not gonna lie, I'm surprised you guys keep coming back episode after episode. But this pot. This podcast isn't a. Isn't about me. This one's about you. So let's talk about you a little bit. I want to hear about your upbringing, your family, your education. It's actually a very different story from mine in a lot of ways. So let's. Let's hear about it.

Yeah. Well, I'm first generation immigrant. My parents came here from Ghana, West Africa in the 60s, 70s, and grew up in New York City in a place called Queens. Queens, New York. And then from there, we moved to a town called Irvington, New Jersey, which is right outside of Newark, New Jersey. And then from there, you know, went through the. You know, the different things of school and, you know, college and so forth. But for me, growing up, growing up in Queens, I just fell in love with the whole concept of Heathcliff Huxtable. You know, just kind of a gentleman who is living in Brooklyn, has a beautiful wife who's a lawyer, has kids who are doing well, lives in a brownstone in Brooklyn. You know, where I was growing up, that was, for me, like, the. The way to get out of my current situation. And that was, for me, something that I really aspired to be. And then obviously, as you get older and older, you start to realize, okay, it's more than just a Lifestyle. This is, you're actually taking care of people, you're treating people. And this is a great way to give back to, you know, to community, to society. So for me, that was just the thing that really hooked me in when I was younger was the Cosby show and, you know, and then from there I just, you know, kind of just hopped and skipped all over the place. I went to Pennsylvania, where I did Lehigh University for undergrad, and then I went to Kansas City, Missouri for medical school, and then Atlanta for residency and then Miami for fellowship. And that's just been my life, actually.

Now you mentioned your parents were immigrants. Would you categorize your upbringing as poor? I mean, you guys, were you poor when you were growing up?

No, we were. My parents are working middle class, you know, they're blue collar working class. My dad was a computer engineer, my mother was a nurse's aide. And they just worked and they hustled, no excuses. And that type of working mentality kind of came onto us. So for us it was just like, you know, the way how you make it out of your current situation is by working hard is by education. Any immigrant will tell you, like, parents just want you to do either two things. Either become a physician or become a lawyer, or let me add another one, become an engineer. So I just chose the route of becoming a physician.

What was it that turned you off about law and engineering?

You know, for me, I just felt like law was more. There wasn't as much structure with law to me, actually. And then with engineering, my dad was doing that, but I just, I don't know, it just didn't really strike me as much. Even though I was a really big computer geek back then. I don't know, it really wasn't for me. Like I said, there's something to be said when you see something and it's on TV and it's being, you know, and it's. There's a lot of glamor to it. You want to be like that, right? So for me, like I said, the Heathcliff Huxtable and that lifestyle was just something that was like, wow, it was in my face every Thursday at 8 o'. Clock. But like, this is something that I want to be and aspire to, so that's the reason why it won out.

So have you been disappointed with the lack of glamour in your career as a physician?

What I mean, yes. I mean, that's the. I mean, let's get real, right? Like, this is the reason why the show or this is the reason why I started the podcast is, you know, the expectations of living your life. Like Bill Cosby or like the Cosby Show. Yes, it's great. Like, I love my wife. I have a child. I love my child. But, like, the things that they don't talk about are, like, you know, lack of autonomy and some other things that we can get into later on. Those expectations didn't quite actually meet, obviously, the. The reality of what it's like to be a physician. And for me, you know, I just kind of hit a point where I was like, look, I am at a fork in a road. I'm either going to continue down one path and either end up divorced, estranged from my kid, or poor, or I can go another route and basically kind of just set and trailblaze my own path and kind of figure out a way to kind of make everything work my way. And I just decided that, you know, to heck with everybody else, to heck with tradition, and, you know, I took the other path.

A trauma surgeon that wants to do it his way, that's so unusual.

Right? So we're pretty smart.

So what was it about that drew you into trauma surgery to start with?

So, for me, the big thing was when I was 17, before I went to Lehigh University, we had a summer program where you got a chance to get some, you know, some credits, you got a chance to be on campus and just kind of get acclimated to the place before you, you know, you really started school in September. And at the end of the program, there was a surgeon who I met who was in Newark, and I connected with him, and I said, hey, look, I don't live too far from this hospital. Is there a chance I can kind of, you know, just watch what you do? And he's like, yeah. Took my phone number, we exchanged numbers, and we finally met up in August. My parents dropped me off at the hospital. He was waiting right in the front, and him and my parents kind of talked for like, maybe two or three minutes. You know, he said, I'm gonna take care of your son. He's gonna be good. You know. And my plan was to do literally like a 12 hour shift. And as soon as my parents drove off, I'm not gonna lie to you, I'm not being overly dramatic. Like, this bell went off and like, this ambulance came in. And he said, look, there's a trauma that's coming in. I want you to stand in the corner once we go into the er. And literally, he put me in a corner. He put on his yellow gown. Everybody put on their yellow Gown and this. I don't know what he. What age he was, but he had to be under 20. We came in, he was shot multiple times, screaming. And it was literally like this organized chaos. This chorus of people all around this guy trying to do things to kind of save his life. I remember them turning him around sideways and, like, you can see just a little bit of some blood coming out. And, you know, I'm 17. I don't have any medical experience whatsoever, so I'm, like, freaking out, but I'm, you know, in a corner, and he's just kind of just like, you know, like, he's like a maestro, like a conductor. He's like telling people, go here, do there, do this, do that. And then after a while, I guess it wasn't working. He says, we're going to the or. He goes to the or. I have to kind of, you know, go somewhere else in the hospital because I didn't have any privileges to go to the or. And then, you know, a couple hours later, he comes back, he meets. He tells me to meet him in the recovery room, and he's like hugging the family of this. Of this patient. And the kid made it out. I don't really know too much of the specifics, and just the fact that he was hugging and he just, you know, was making him feel better. You know, I was like, that's it. That's what I want to do. I want to be a trauma surgeon. I didn't know too much of the specifics about it, but that ability to kind of be able to manage all of those different people and be in chaos and then all of a sudden come back and. And then, you know, be able to comfort a family member. That. That was something that really stuck with me. And, you know, I changed interest when I was in medical school. At one point, I thought I wanted to go into ob. You know, that was a little bit of like the Cliff Huxtable kind of reaching back, like, hey, you forgot about me. But then eventually I did a third year rotation in the middle of Hoisington, Kansas, where a general surgeon was just a. He was just literally a true general surgeon. He did everything. And that's when I fell back in love with general surgery. And then when I did my residency in Atlanta, Georgia, it was a lot of general surgery and a lot of trauma. And I just knew this was my calling.

Now a lot of trauma surgeons complain that it's becoming less and less operative all the time. Has that bothered you much?

Oh, absolutely. So now the big thing, though, is there's this new thing called acute care surgery. So it answers that problem that you just mentioned. So, you know, around like the 80s and 90s, technology became so great that CT scanners can now scan and tell you if there's any major injuries that need operative intervention or, you know, injuries that don't need operative intervention. And for the majority of places outside of, you know, places that get a lot of penetrating trauma, like inner city areas and so forth, most of trauma is blunt trauma, car accidents, you fall and so forth. You don't necessarily, the majority of time need surgery for that. So if a patient is stable enough and they can get a CT scan, yes, you know, trauma is becoming less and less operative. But with acute care surgery, the new thing that's out now is if there's a trauma surgeon in house, why don't you have them not only take care of trauma patients who are injured, but also take care of the emergent surgical cases that come through the ed, the appendectomies, the gallbladders, the, the small bowel obstructions. So that's been something that's been going on for at least 10 years now. And it's really been able to give young surgeons like me an opportunity to kind of get my hands wet again, be able to use my hands for what I trained them for, as opposed to, you know, in essence, babysitting for another subspecialty like neurosurgery, orthopedics, or what other subspecialty can handle what caused the trauma. So for me, I really enjoy acute care surgery.

Very cool. Yeah, it's a little bit like the trend toward hospitalists on the medicine side, but it really makes a lot of sense, I think, not only to keep the trauma surgeons operating, but also to keep lifestyles reasonable. And I think the younger generation is going, this is crazy to work 100 hours a week for, you know, decades on end. And so I think a lot of that's been the push from the younger generations wanting a reasonable lifestyle that's also moving toward the, you know, emergentologists, the emergent surgeon kind of model.

They don't play. The younger generation is not playing. And in some ways, you know, we kind of, I think the older folks, I'm not talking about you and I, but I think the older folks kind of poo poo on millennials or the younger generation that's really pushing lifestyle. But I think it's really important. I think it's really good that they're out there saying, listen, like, like you said, I Don't want to do 100 hours a week. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Like, if I can have my lifestyle and I can still be a really good doctor, I don't see why I have to sacrifice my family, why I have to sacrifice my future for something that at the end, when you graduate or, excuse me, when you retire, you're literally going to get like a one hour retirement party and that's it. Now, I'm kind of simplifying the matter, but I do think that there's a place for, you know, really having that conversation of, you know, the way in which medicine was performed, you know, prior to, you know, how it is now. Was it really the right way?

So, you know. Well, you know what they say, the problem with Q2 calls, you miss half the good cases, so.

Right.

All right, well, let's. That's a good segue. Let's move into a little bit about this side gig you've got going on. Tell us about the inspiration behind Docs Outside the Box.

Oh, so Docs Outside the Box. The inspiration came when I finished fellowship. So when I finished fellowship, it was time to look for a job. I was going on a whole bunch of different interviews. And I mean, anybody who's listening to the show, who's been on interviews, knows like, it's eight hours of literally like a song and dance trying to recruit you to come to an hospital. You know, afterwards, you know, they give you a contract that says, yeah, why don't you come and sign here for three years or five years? And it just. For me, I had a major problem with that. Just because I'm here for like five hours or eight hours, and then just like that, I'm going to dedicate three hours or three years to you. So I oftentimes found, like, the negotiation process was a lot different than the interview process. And my girlfriend at the time, who's now my wife, she said, well, why don't you consider Locum Tenens, which is independent contracting, you know, temp agency, temp work for physicians. And I said, I can't do that. And she said, why? And I was like, because I can't. And she's like, well, but why? I was like, well, because the other fellows aren't doing it. And she was like, so you're not gonna do something that probably may make you happy because other people aren't doing it, you know, and then there was that big pause, obviously. Right?

I hate that pause, because what are you supposed to say? Okay, you're right. You know, and we just don't want to say that, especially as guys. Right?

It's. You're absolutely right. So, long story short, I started doing locum tenons and was operating, doing great, and had a really good time. But then one thing happened that I did not anticipate. I was meeting people who, whether they're surgeons or hospitalists, ER docs. There were people who were doing, like, really cool things outside of medicine. And then they were using the locum tenens, the independent contracting work, to kind of finance that lifestyle. And I was like, this is really cool. Like, I. Like, there were some of my trauma surgeons who are signing out to, who are like, yeah, I'm actually going to go overseas and do some medical mission work with, you know, doctors without border. Yeah, I actually work in the United states for like two months, but I spend the other 10 months working in Liberia or, you know, Syria, what have you. And I'm like, this what? Like you can do that, you know, and, you know, then I met other people who were on tv, other people who were running their own locum tenants businesses, and I was like, man, like, if I had known all of these different stories, I probably would have done things differently. I don't know if I probably would have gone to the surgery. I may have done something different. Who knows? So you take that story and then you throw it with the fact that me and my wife got married also, and she's a doctor. We went to the same med school. We both had $330,000 of debt. So we just had a huge issue where you have a six figure salary or six figure income in the house, and we're living paycheck to paycheck. What do we do? So we started listening to podcasts, obviously reading your blog, and then started realizing that, you know, a lot of these people who are doing podcasts, you know, they're not much older than me. As a matter of fact, actually a lot of them are younger than me. So I started thinking to myself, like, why couldn't I do a podcast on doctors who do really cool things outside of medicine? And literally, it was just the labor of love. Like, I just want to go out there and just interview these docs and learn from them. And then lo and behold, you know, like, I talk to people like you, like, hey, like the white coat investor, would you be interested in being on my show? I know I don't have a website and I know you don't see any other interviews up yet. Would you mind be on the show? And you said, yes. And other people were saying yes. And then, lo and behold, other people were writing in saying, hey, I feel the same way. Like, can you do more? And I said, really? Like, you guys are interested in this? And from there, it's just kind of gone and taken its own path. And it's something that I'm really, really proud of. I'm really happy that it's been able to kind of have legs on its own.

Very cool. What do you hope to accomplish with it? What's success look like when you look at your enterprise? This Docs outside the box.

That's a great question. So initially, success was, look, I just want to demystify doctors just being known as doctors. Right? That's abstracto. Right? Like, what does that really mean? But now what I would like to do is, I think from a business standpoint, I'd like to be able to, you know, one, I'd like to be able to make docs outside the box to a point where it's profitable, where I could actually spend more time actually on the podcast and make it a podcast that is coming out consistently on a weekly basis and maybe even twice a week. I'd like to eventually put together a conference where we literally can all get together and literally talk about all the different things that you can do with your medical degree in medicine as well as outside of medicine. And. And, you know, right now, that's the biggest thing that I have on my mind right now. But also, you know, from a successful standpoint, I think eventually courses should be coming up as well as a curriculum. So, you know, it's. It's. It's one of those things that's really cool where I can. I know where it's going, but I'm not sure exactly where it's going to end up. And it's something that makes me comfortable, but it's also something that makes me very uncomfortable because, you know, for the past 10, 15 years, I just knew, like, in 15 years I would be a doctor eventually. And, like, the path was already paved already for me in this situation. Like, I'm making it as I go.

So, yeah, and there's not. What I've discovered is there's not necessarily a lot of models out there like there is in medicine. I mean, in medicine, it was, okay, well, let me find an attending emergency physician and figure out how they got there, you know, and there's thousands and thousands of people that can show you how to get there. That's not necessarily the case when you're trying to be A successful podcaster, for instance.

Right, right. And, you know, just, you know, like, literally, like, I. I think a lot of. A lot of podcasters right now, a lot of bloggers right now have a lot to thank you for because you paved the way for a lot of people knowing that way. First of all, not only can, if I'm consistent, I could be very successful with this. And people will come. You know, the doctors have a lot of interest outside of just pure medicine. Like, they are very interested in their personal finance. And now, you know, doctors are interested in, you know, travel and what have you. So I just got to give you props for what you did, man.

Yeah, well, when I hear about you talking about wanting to put on a conference, I'm just kind of silently wishing you good luck. Have fun with that.

Well, from what I hear, I heard that your. Your conference was really successful. I tried to go, but I couldn't make it because of scheduling. But from what I hear, was pretty successful. But that's probably from the attendee side. I'm sure it's a huge headache from putting it together side.

It was. It was a lot of fun, but it was a lot of work, for sure. And I definitely lost more sleep over that than anything else I think I've ever done. It was like, you know, I lose a lot of sleep before I go on a big rock climb the next day. You know, that's. I'm kind of notorious for that when I'm going into the mountains, but this was like, I was going for a big rock climb every day for months, you know, so, you know, when you put your name on something, you want it to be really good, and there's so many things to do, and it's all brand new to you to put on a conference that it can. Can be a little bit stressful, which is interesting. You know, people look at an emergency doc or, you know, a trauma surgeon, they're like, how can that person get stressed out? They take people's lives in their hands. But, you know, after a while, that doesn't become particularly stressful. And I was going to the hospital to kind of chill.

It's true. I agree with you. Because it's already laid out. Ready. Right. You've done it so many times, you're almost, like, on autopilot, you know, Whereas.

I definitely was not competent at putting on a conference, you know, so.

Right, right.

Well, this is a financial podcast, so I got to ask you at least a couple of financial questions. Tell us a little bit about your financial life. Where where are you at?

Well, right now at the end of December, me and my wife just finally finished paying off our student loan debt. We finally finished paying Sallie Mae back, kicked her to the curb. So we're very, very, very ecstatic about that. You know, we, you know, obviously used a lot of the teachings from your blog, as well as some of the Dave Ramsey approach. We kind of just piecemealed it from different people that we watched and we were, we had a budgeting system and, you know, we would just literally, it felt like buying a new car every month. Like, we went extreme. We went really extreme with it. We decided to take the approach of if we went really hard right at the beginning, that that would give us a lot more freedom towards the end. So we probably saved maybe about 10% of what we brought in. But everything else went to student loans. And some people may ask, well, how'd you do that? I'm like, well, literally, like we ate $200 a month in groceries a month. That was it. And then when I went to work, I was only allowed $50 a month to be used in a cafeteria and so forth. And same thing for my wife. And then everything else, the huge line item was student loans. And you know, that's a very, very aggressive way to pay off the student loan debt. There's so many ways you can do it. But now that it's gone, right, now that that line item is gone, the habit, though, is not gone, right? So now literally that line item, which was a debt, has now been changed into savings, right? So now for us, it's literally now when we work, we just know in the beginning of the month, that amount that used to go towards student loan debt just goes towards investing, goes towards savings, emergency funds as well as for my son and some other projects that we want to work with. So that's our life. So now that we have a child, my wife has become what's called, and she'll say it also a quote unquote, stay at home ob. You know, she's allowed, you know, she's aware with this how we've been able to kind of pay off our debt. She's able now to spend more time with our son, but also at the same time have this hospitalist type of OB lifestyle which I think is been really good for her and she can kind of work on a business also. And then for me, I've been able to kind of pull back on the, you know, 100 hour weeks. And although I'm still kind of going a little Bit crazy. I've been able to pull back just a little bit more to really focus on, you know, our savings, our investing, but also, you know, things like passion projects like investing in a locum tenants company.

Now this is. That's pretty interesting. We ought to get back into that in just a second. But I find it interesting that you loosen the purse strings in a way that's different from most docs. You didn't go out and buy a Tesla. You didn't go out and buy the big fancy doctor house. After getting rid of your student loans, it sounds you took that money and used it to build the life you wanted. Sounds like you both kind of cut back a little bit at work once the student loans were gone. Is that right?

Yes, that's. You got it exactly right. You know, for us, the loans were a major pain point. You got to. So for me, my family, when we came, when my parents came from, from Ghana, literally it was just them. And then my, my sisters came along and then me came, I came along. So we're a very tight knit family. There's not many cousins here in the. So for me to be far away from my family, you know, we work about four and a half hours from our family. For us to be far away from our families is a painful point for us. So that combined with student loans, we just knew that we had to attack it as quickly as possible so that we can get closer to family because we couldn't afford to live in New York or live in New Jersey where our families, you know, respectively live. So yes, you know, we just.

That's a pretty incredible statement when you think about it. A two, two specialist family. You couldn't afford to live in New York and New Jersey.

Could not, could not. And you know, we would still be in debt if we were living here. So we moved to the middle of Pennsylvania. It's been great for us, but we did what we had to do. And you're great. You're right. Like, I, I didn't. We. I wanted to get a Tesla, I'm not gonna lie. Actually, for me at the time it was an Audi. S5 is what I wanted. It's nice. But then once you really start being realistic and I started getting more mature with, with my money and started realizing, wow, like, you know, with us, we put all of our money together so I'm like, wow, like, like I really can't afford this car because I could barely. We're barely. We're not. Even if I tell you where we were initially, that, that's another show. But, like, it was just living paycheck to paycheck, and it was just something that we just realized that it was more of the experience that we needed to take care of, as opposed to, like you said, getting a house or getting a. A nice fancy car.

How many years were you out of residency when you had this epiphany that this isn't what you wanted the rest of your career?

I would say about a year out of fellowship. Because what ended up happening is, is during. As soon as I finished fellowship, a couple of months into fellowship, I got engaged with. With. With my current wife. And I don't know why I say current. I only have one wife. She's looking at. But we got engaged, and then something happened that I did not know you could do. We paid for our wedding. Even though it wasn't that expensive, we paid for our wedding cash. And that was the first time I was like, huh. I didn't know that people did that. Seriously, I. We really. Like, I didn't know that. And then we paid for our honeymoon in cash, you know, And I was like, huh. But meanwhile, we're still paying minimum payments on our student loans, and we're paying, like, a significant amount of money towards cash value. Whole life insurance. I'm not gonna say the name.

We all. We all know what the name is because we all had a policy too, you know?

Exactly. So. So it was just like things were backwards. But then at the same time, I was just saying, like, the power of being able to pay cash for things and, you know, not having to pay for it five years later. And once I did that, once we figured that out, we're like, you know what? We. You know, I read your. Your article on whole life insurance at least 15 or 20 times because I had a really nice guy, and I was like, there's no way what Jim is saying really like this. And then it just was like, yeah, like this. This is wrong. Like, I used that algorithm that you had. Do you remember that post? Yeah. I was like, wow. Like, everything is making sense. And since then. Since then, that was it. Haven't looked back.

So what do your investments look like now?

Oh, we're just index funds. That's it. Index funds right now. Boring index funds. It's less thought. I mean, less, you know, less angst for me. We have a really healthy emergency fund, and that's pretty much it right now.

So tell us a little bit more about your partner, Renee. What. What's she like? How did you guys meet? What's her role in these enterprises of yours.

So really, truly my better half. Um, so Renee is my partner in crime, my wife, my best friend, and she's the one who actually, if you think about it, she's the one who's encouraged me to start this Locums life. And then when I was telling her about a podcast and telling her that I have a problem with public speaking, she's the one who encouraged me to keep podcasting. Because for me, the reason why I really wanted to do the podcast was just to kind of learn from different people who are doing really cool things. But I just always felt also at the same time that I wasn't a very good public speaker. So she just encouraged me to keep going with that. So she's been very encouraging with all the different entre, you know, different things that I wanted to do. Even with the locum tenants business that we currently run, she's been really, really encouraging with that. She, on the other side also is very entrepreneurial at heart also. So she's just started a pre med consulting business to help non traditional pre med students. So those are students who have graduated already from college and are trying to get into. Into medical school. She has a pre med consulting business which is doing really well also. So, you know, so you basically have like two entrepreneurial minds coming together. But also at the same time, you know, she is very encouraging. She's a mom. So we work really good hand in hand.

Very cool. Now you guys also have a blog. It's not just a podcast. You have a blog. Keeping up with the Darkos at Keeping up with the darkos.com, i believe. Correct.

Yeah. So it's still a WordPress blog thing right now. So we're in the process of making that an official blog, so to speak, where we own it, so to speak. But basically it is it. We named it Keeping up with the Darko's because. Not. And everybody's like, oh, you're trying to be like Keeping up the Kardashians. Absolutely. Absolutely not. It's. It's. We didn't even know about it when we started. We just did it because of Keeping up with the Joneses. So it's a little bit of a spin on words with. From that. But basically with that we were just chronicling, you know, our life being newly married, finding out that we're poor. Literally poor and. Or just say broke, not poor. Actually. Let me, let me change that. Finding out that we're broke.

You had a low net worth anyway, despite your income.

Exactly. You know, despite our income and just kind of what it's like to figure that stuff out. Right. So one of the things that we talked about in there was, you know, I decided after I graduated from medical school that I deserved a house. Right. And just because I deserved one. Right. And that ended up being one of the dumbest mistakes that even to this day, I'm still living with right now. So I bought a house in 2006 in Atlanta at the height of the market. And then we all know what's happened since then. And to this day, I'm still trying to sell it, which I think hopefully we'll be able to sell later on this year. But we just chronicle, you know, things that everyday people go through. It's just that we have a six figure salary and it's just kind of letting people know. Like, just because you have six figures doesn't mean that you have six figure knowledge.

You know, I want to do accredited investor thing.

Right.

There's this expectation, you know, more just because you have more. It's not necessarily true.

Exactly.

So Renee seems a lot more involved with the blog than the podcast, am I right?

Yeah, so. So the blog is kind of hurt by her baby. The podcast is mine. And then she's a bit. And the way how it works is she's just a better writer than me. And so when you mentioned earlier that the reason why. Oh, you mentioned that you. You feel more comfortable writing as opposed to podcasting. So for me, it's opposite. I can't stand writing. I actually, I write okay, but I write just like a medical textbook. I'm just very stiff with everything, you know, so people could probably say that.

About me as well, you know, but.

You know, it is what it is. Right? But you know, obviously your podcast is really popular. Right? But for me, it's just. It just takes me a long time to write. So I just rather just, you know, talking to a recorder and record my thoughts that way. As with her, she's just more natural with it, typing things up.

Very cool. So tell us a little bit about this locums firm you've started.

Yes. So one of the first things also I learned with locum tenens is that, you know, not everybody gets paid the same. So the first gig I had, I found out that there was a competing set of doctors who were working at my hospital who, who were basically getting paid close to about 50% more than me. Doing the same type of work was.

A painful day, I imagine.

Tell me about it. Right. You know, like literally 50% more and because they formed their own smaller organization, smaller company, so there was less overhead, more of the profit stayed with the doctors. They were able to share and you know, really keep cost low of medical malpractice. And I'm the type of person who doesn't like, listen, I'm very hard headed, right? So when I found out about that, I started making all these different excuses and I was like, oh, whatever, I'll just stay with a locums company. It's better that way. I can get in and get out and so forth, you know. But then when you start adding up all of these numbers, right, when you're starting to pay off debt and you're like, man, I'm leaving money on the table and you start multiplying it by a couple of years and then 5 and 10, 15 years over time you're like, man, like 50% on a daily basis, man, that stuff adds up, you know. And I started thinking about it, I was like, wait, I do. I could do exactly what the locum tenants company can do, but I can do it better, faster if I use technology. And then what ended up happening is I started realizing, me and my wife realized that there are a lot of people who want to work as independent contractors, you know, but they just don't really want to do it by themselves. But, but they don't want to get jacked for like 30, 40%, right? So we started our company and the premise is, look, we're gonna give doctors, allow them to have the lifestyle that they want at a cheaper rate than how the big locum companies do it. And they do good jobs. So we take obviously less off the top. But thing that we do differently is we have a portal where we connect them with a fee only advisor, we connect them with a tax coach. If they want to use it, they're not forced to use it. And then also at the same time we kind of, you know, help them kind of realize that you can do more with this paycheck. You know, this is how you properly save your money. This is how you put money away for your taxes, this is how you pay your quarterly taxes. So we take more of like an instructional teacher type approach with our, with our company as opposed to, look, you just work for us, here's your money and see when it's time for your next assignment. And so far that's been resonating with physicians. So right now we've been focusing on OB and trauma and very soon we're going to be expanding to emergency medicine and internal medicine.

So how do I find your company? I'm looking at your docs outside the box@docsotb.com I don't even see a link to your company. I mean, if people want to hire your locums company, how do they find it?

Right? So you just go to www.etclement health.net/access health.net all right. Yes. And on there, you'll see a way to get in contact with us, and you'll see even one job right now that we're talking, that we're trying to get more people to sign up for. But it's a. It's a really good opportunity. It's a really good. It's been a really, really amazing ride with that. Because I feel like there's so many doctors who, you know, are really starting to understand that look like it's okay for me to get paid more to my plumber, right? You know, it's the truth, right, Jim? It's the truth, right? Like, you can get paid more than your plumber, and you don't have to be apologetic about it. And then look what it could do for your life. Like, you can go and take a vacation if you need to. You can work two weeks out of the month and then, you know, have the other two weeks off or, you know, whatever type of, you know, work style you want, you can have it in a Locums type fashion. So. Or if you want to take a, you know, if you want to take a permanent gig, you can use Locums as a way to determine how much your worth is. That's the most important thing, I think, out of Locums is finding out what your true worth is and then being able to negotiate that. If you want a permanent job or.

Are you going to plumbing, you know, it's like the old joke that the cardiologist has a plumber over, does a, you know, has something to fix about the toilet. The guy fixes it in 10 minutes and charges him 200 bucks. And the cardiologist protests. He says, you know, I didn't get paid. I don't get paid that as a cardiologist. And the plumber says, I didn't get paid that when I was a cardiologist either.

Ain't that the truth? It's true, though, right? I mean, they're so unapologetic about it. Why can't we be that way, right?

I mean, exactly. At any rate, love it. Let's.

That's a good joke, though. I'm gonna use it on my show.

Let's change gears a little bit. You mentioned earlier that you were kind of inspired into medicine by Cliff Huxtable of the Cosby show, and that and Hawkeye Pierce on MASH were big inspirations for me as well. And now with Cosby's crimes coming to light, how has that affected you, this role model you had from relatively early in your life?

Right. So what I say is, the way how I tell people now is, you know, back then, I mean, I didn't know. Right. You know, what's going on. So what I tell people now is like, I was inspired by the concept of Heathcliff Huxtable. It kind of separates the. The Cosby show from, you know, that concept. So, you know, obviously it. You know, it. The crimes that were committed are horrible, and it goes without saying. So for me, though, that concept, though, the idea of Heathcliff Huxtable is something that's still very powerful, and it's something that I think a lot of people hold onto or held onto to kind of help them realize what you can do. As an African American, that was very, very important for someone like me to realize that doctors do well, or, excuse me, African Americans can get into medicine, and it can do very well. So, yeah, it's been, you know, a little bit of a. Of a, you know, like, wow, like, I can't believe, you know, like, that's. That was really happening during that time and stuff. So for me, whenever anybody asked me, like, what was your inspiration? I always make sure I'm very clear in saying that. Look, for me, the concept, the idea of Heathcliff Huxtable as a family man, as a d. Dad, as a physician, that's something that was very powerful for me. You know, Cliff Huxt.

Well, not Bill Cosby, right?

Yeah.

All right. What's your favorite episode of Docs Outside the Box and why?

That's a good question. That's a tough one. You know what? My. So out of. All of my guests have been amazing. I think all of my guests are amazing, so they're all my favorite. But the one that I really like the most, I'm going to tell you honestly, is a solo episode that I did with my wife. It's the one where we paid off. We talked about paying off $662,000 of debt because it. Two things we did on that show. I just. I'm really uncomfortable talking about numbers, and slowly but surely, I've gotten a lot better with it. And it's, you know, just as a trauma surgeon, you're just used to kind of Taking care of people. There's a wall that you have. You're dealing with people who. Who may die, and you just always have a wall. So that kind of wall kind of carried on to my podcast, and it wasn't until I did a survey that I found out that more people want to learn more about me and my life than just interviewing doctors who do cool things outside of medicine. And so I've been, like, kind of just letting, you know, the wall down and talking more about my life. So that episode that I did with my wife, I mean, we let it all out. We let it all hang. Like we talked about, you know, you know, how we ended up graduating with $240,000 of debt each, and how, because we took inaction, we ended up with 330 each, and then me buying a house, and then how we stumbled upon paying off our debt, you know, and some of the mistakes that we made while paying off our debt, you know, so it was a really real revealing, genuine conversation that I have. And like I said, even though you're. You're. Your podcast still is one of the highest downloaded episodes of all time. People are writing me saying that, like, I really feel like you came out and got really real with your wife on that episode. So I have to say that one is. Is. Is my favorite one.

So for those who are Interested, that's episode 43, how we slayed $662,000 of student loan debt in three years. It looks like a fantastic episode.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you like that political answer?

Yeah, that was a very political answer. That was very nice to, you know, kiss up to the white coat investor podcast while. While answering the question. No, it was great.

Love it. Love it.

So let me push back a little bit about this side hustle idea, right? You know, this idea that docs should be outside the box. I mean, does a doc really need to operate outside the box? What's wrong with the box? Anyway? For instance, I talked a few podcast episodes ago about a question I got from a doc who's making seven figures, putting away $830,000 a year, and feeling guilty that he didn't have multiple streams of income. What? What's wrong with the box? Exactly.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the box at all, actually. I do think, though, what the show is trying to do is to let it be known that it is okay to do more than just be a doctor in a hospital. And, you know, it's. For me, I just kind of felt like at the time, And I started looking back and getting very real about things. Even during residency, towards the end of my residency and even during fellowship, I was like, man, like, I. I really enjoy traveling or I really enjoy, you know, whatever computers or what have you. But I don't really feel comfortable talking about that with my. With my colleagues. Right. I just felt as though if I brought that up, they would make fun of me. So that's the point of the show, is to make it so that it is less of a stigma that, hey, look like I'm a cardiothoracic surgeon. But, hey, I really like to, like, rock climb, and I like spending a lot of time. Right. Climbing. Is there anything wrong with that? No, like, you can go ahead and do that. So I just want it to be so that there's room for everybody at the table. Right. That's the key. There's room to be, you know, the 800, the doc who's making $800,000 a year or making seven figures and saving. But there's also room for the doctor who wants to make $300,000 or $200,000 a year. Year. And want to go live in. In Syria and go save people over there. So that's. That's really the premise of the show, is just to say that it's okay to have differing, diverse voices.

You know, I looked into being a doc in Syria, and you're not going to make $200,000 while you're working there. But, you know, Doctors Without Borders will pay you a couple grand a month to go to Syria.

Right, Right. But if you. But if you want to live, you can live here, you know, for like, a couple of months and. And then kind of go over there and then kind of go back and forth, you know, but there's just so many different options available. So that doctor that you're talking about, provided he's doing all of those things, I mean, that's amazing. That's an amazing opportunity that he has. And I actually know a doctor who's doing something like that, and it's great. I just want it so that if he ever meets someone who's saying that I want to make less or I want to do X, Y and Z, like, that's a great conversation where it's a really encouraging conversation as opposed to someone trying to say that you shouldn't do that or making fun of that.

Person, I can really relate to that because a lot of what I do is kind of taking the taboo away from doctors talking about money. And in some ways, you're taking a taboo away from doctors, talking about, you know, outside pursuits.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Which is, you know, pretty similar there.

I think you slay. I think you slayed the tab.

I'm working hard on it. Anyway, I hope the pendulum doesn't swing too far, you know, because I don't want a bunch of doctors to just are all focused on, you know, retiring early and making millions, but I want them to also have the freedom to be able to live the lives they want. So it's a tricky balance sometimes. I think a lot of your blog focuses on working together with your partner. What tips do you have for a couple that not only isn't on the same page financially, but isn't even reading from the same book? What can they do to, you know, kind of align themselves?

It's a really good question. Question. I think the number one thing that a couple can do is you got to start dreaming together. And it sounds abstract and nebulous, but literally, like, where do you see your life in five years, 10 years? What's the legacy that you as a couple want to leave? Right. And if you can start dreaming on the same page about that, then I think the rest is a little bit easier. So. So with me and my wife come from, obviously, two separate families, obviously. But for us, you know, we just want. We want to spend as much time with our family as possible. We want, you know, our nephews and our nieces to see that, you know, you can be very happy being a physician. In essence, you can be happy doing whatever you want to do, but also at the same time, like, you can really enjoy, you know, just life. And for me, I guess the reason why we feel so passionate about that and even for my wife is literally for 10, even almost 13 years. I mean, if I can tell you the amount of funerals I missed, the weddings I missed, birthdays I missed, just, you know, barbecues I missed because I had to go and study or I had to be in a hospital. You know, it just. I look back and it's just heartbreaking. I feel like I missed, like, half of my family's, you know, some of the major things that happened with my family. So for us, you know, once we got married and we got all the debt together, you know, we literally, when we went on our honeymoon, we were like, man, when's the next time we went on to New Zealand and to Australia? When we were there, we said to ourselves, when's the next time we're going to come here? And there was a pause, and my Wife said, I don't know. And I said, look, I don't know either, because we have to work and we got all this debt, I don't think we'll ever be able to take a vacation again. This is a serious conversation we had. And it was from that day on, I just started investigating. I found you, like, maybe a couple of weeks later. And in all the podcasts and, you know, what I'm trying to say from that story is that the debt literally changed our perspective on medicine, from this is what we finally accomplished, to, wow, we really have to do this to pay this debt off so that we can get back home. It just changed our perspective, and it became something that wasn't fun anymore. So once we started dreaming together about, like, hey, like, like, if we got the debt out of our lives, we can, like, be back closer to home. Like, we can, you know, be with our parents and we can support them. We can go to graduations and, you know, my son can be around his family because for me, growing up in the United States, just with my sisters, I always wanted to know what was like to be around my grandparents who were in Ghana or my aunts and uncles who were in Ghana. I didn't have that experience. So I just want my son, my children to kind of be around their family. So that's where the dreaming together really took us. So my best advice is if y' all two, you know, partners could come together and just start dreaming together and really agreeing on what that life looks like, 15, 20 years, what your legacy is going to be, then I think the rest would be a little bit easier.

It's almost like you got to start with the end in mind and work your way backwards to where you're at. And then. And then it's a little easier to say, okay, maybe I don't want the Tesla right now, or whatever it is.

That's a really good point, because I. You know, it's funny, I hate to cut you off real quick, but that is a great point, because right now, like, I want a Tesla so bad. Like, I want. I want a Model S so bad. But the way in which I look at it is just how you look at it. Like, every time I look at getting a Model S, it looks, to me, it's great. But the other way in which I look at it as is, that's like five years off of retirement or five years in addition to retirement that I have to add on towards the end. Right? It's. It's just something that's going to delay retirement, you know, even further. So, you know, when you look at things like that, that may be a little too hardcore, but that's the way how I look at it. And that's been able to help me kind of just push that idea a little bit further, further away and maybe get a used Tesla, you know, in like four or five years now you've.

Mentioned a lot about how your mindset's changed with regards to debt and you guys now have your student loans paid off, which is a very impressive amount in a relatively short period of time. There's a lot of talk out in the blogosphere, particularly about good debt and bad debt. Do you feel there is such a thing as good debt and how do you tell the difference if there is?

I believe. Well, when I first started, before I discovered your show, before I discovered the Dave Ramsey's and all the different things, I thought there was a difference. And I've slowly realized that there really, to me, my opinion is that there isn't good debt, you know, even from a college standpoint, right? Because if you think about it, you know, I mean, the amount of interest that built on my college degree and medical school degree granted, I've been able to pay it off like it is. Like there were points when I felt like I was driving to work, I would open a window and literally take a bunch of cash and just let the money just fly out, right? Like, I don't think that I needed to be paying that much for my college degree in terms of interest afterwards, right. I should have been able to take care of that a lot easier, a lot sooner. And I think that would have taken that headache out of the picture. In terms of housing debt, like, I didn't know that you can. Some people got a mortgage and paid it in 15 years. I didn't know that. I thought that you did it in 30 years and that was it. And I didn't know that people were paying it off a lot sooner than that. And I didn't realize that, you know, debt just really just has like this gripping effect on people, you know. So for me, the way how we look at debt now is we don't look at it as good, we definitely look at it as all bad. And we try our best to make sure that we don't have to take it on any additional debt now, right now, you know, it's a very funny part, very interesting point in our lives right now where now that we've gotten our debt paid off, we're trying to figure out where we're going to live. And obviously that involves getting a home. I'm. I feel like it's too fresh to get a new. To get a home and get a mortgage. My wife is on the. On the plane of, well, we can get one, but we can pay it off quickly. But I just know how hard I worked, how hard she worked to get the debt paid off so quickly. I don't know if I want to go that hard again to pay off debt. So that's a really interesting conversation that's happening in our household right now.

It's painful to even consider going back into debt. I know how you feel, because we've been talking lately about a major, major home upgrade to our home, and we're currently debt free. And I look at it and I'm like, no way, man. I'm just not going back. It doesn't matter what the interest rate is. It doesn't matter what the terms are. It doesn't matter how fast we can pay it off. I just don't want to go back. And, you know, logically, mathematically, maybe that doesn't even make sense, especially if we can get really good terms. But it's just, you know, that burden. It is a burden that hangs over you a little bit, and I really don't like it. My general advice to my listeners, to my readers, is to be out of medical school debt within two to five years of finishing training. Do you think that's good advice? You think that's too extreme?

No, I think that's great advice. I think that's excellent advice. You should not be paying for your degree into your 60s. I just, I just don't, you know, it just. You shouldn't be, you know, and that was the path that we were heading on. But you. I. I think it's great advice.

So we're starting to get a little bit short on time here, but I wanted to give you a chance to see if there's anything else our listeners should know about you and your message. What are they missing on the White Coat Investor podcast that. That you can give them in just a minute or two?

You know, I think, you know, for my perspective, I'm going to be very honest. I think you cover everything very well. I think sometimes, though, people have an ability to get too focused on being perfect and making a perfect move, and there's so much information out there that they're afraid to take a step, and they end up getting analysis paralysis. And that's where I was and what I would say to people because so Many people would say, well, why did you pay off your debt so quickly? You could have taken a more balanced approach. Which is true. That works. So for us, what we ended up doing is we took the approach that worked best for us. We took our most important pain point, the point that bothered us the most, and we tackled that as quickly as possible. And are there multiple ways you can do it? Yes. But at least we took action. So for the listeners out there who are rummaging through all the different blogs and all the different articles and you're still not sure, you know, if you should take action, just please look at me and my wife as an example to say, look like it's okay to take imperfect action. Right? It's okay to take imperfect action. If you mess up, it's okay. Like the personal finance physician community or, you know, the podcasts that are out there, we are all here willing to help you out. But you got to take step one and if you fall in, you will figure it out. We will throw you a life jacket, we'll throw you a rope. We will help you. But please do not fall into analysis. Paralysis. Take action.

I think that's great advice. Thank you so much. Dr. Ni Darko, host of Docs Outside the Box podcast, a blogger together with his wife, although it sounds like she's doing a little bit more of the work there at Keeping up with the Dark goes Dot Word. Thank you so much for being on the White Coat Investor podcast today.

Hey, thank you for giving me the opportunity. This was great.

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Emergency physician, blogger, author, and podcaster.

He is not a licensed accountant, attorney, or financial advisor. So this podcast is for your entertainment and information only and should not be considered official, personalized financial advice.