Global Innovators Series - Dr. Tiffany Masson and Global HOPE

Living a Life in Full is a conversation you always wanted to have with that person who gave an amazing TED Talk or the author of one of your favorite books, or that inspirational Olympian you always wanted to know more about. It's graduate level conversations with those making a difference in the world and in the lives of others. This show brings you new ideas and approaches so that you can live a life in full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout and I hope you enjoy this episode. This episode of Living a Life in Full is brought to you by the Chicago School of Professional Psychology. The Chicago School offers numerous study abroad opportunities that allow students to apply classroom theory in a global setting, addressing issues that underserved communities face in countries around the world. As an innovator in psychology and related behavioral health sciences for 40 years, the Chicago School has developed a hands on approach to education that provides students the chance to make a difference in the lives of others while still pursuing their education. Change the way you see the world and the way the world sees you by joining a global community of professionals dedicated to making a difference. Learn more at TheChicagoSchool. Eduardo welcome to another episode of Living a Life in Full. I'm your host, Dr. Chris Stout. This is a special edition episode that marks the start of a limited run series called Global Innovators. This will be in addition to our ongoing monthly episodes. This special series will focus specifically on work done in the humanitarian intervention space. We kick the series off with a dear friend, Dr. Tiffany Masson, as background and introduction. Dr. Masson is the Campus Dean of the online campus of the Chicago School of Professional Psychology where she provides oversight and advances the growth of the institution's highly successful online campus. She was appointed by the Chicago School's President to co lead the University's strategic plan and develop a new vision for the University known as TCSPP Global. Dr. Masson earned her Doctorate of Psychology in 2002 and went on to complete her postdoctoral training at UC Davis Children's Hospital Care center and was employed as a Staff Psychologist by Cook County Juvenile Court and Northwestern University School of Law. Her leadership positions include serving as Departmental Chair of International Psychology, Executive Director of the Social and Behavioral Sciences, and Campus Dean of the Chicago School of Professional psychology. During her 11 year tenure, she also has maintained an active forensic private practice, been an international speaker, and has just published a new book, Inside Forensic Psychology. As A global innovator, Dr. Mahsan develops and manages international partnerships and continues to focus her efforts on specific international human capacity development projects in Africa. In addition, she has co developed a country specific 12 day trauma training program known as the Global Hope Training Initiative. Global Hope aids teachers in effectively recognizing, assessing and intervening with traumatized children. Dr. Mahsan's success in Rwanda and her ability to develop government and private partnerships has helped to expand the Global Hope Training Initiative to Zambia and South Africa. Welcome to the show, Tiffany.

Oh, it's a great honor to be with you, Chris. Thank you.

Oh, you bet. I have to say, your work and accomplishments just give me pause. There's so much I want to talk to you about and I guess maybe just to start, maybe makes sense chronologically as far as origin stories go. What led you to psychology in general and to forensics in particular?

It's a great question. I actually knew very early on in high school I actually had the opportunity to take an Intro to Psychology course as an elective and. And I absolutely fell in love. And it was right at, I think my 11th grade. So it was right at the time when I was applying to colleges. And so it just seemed like serendipitous that it happened that way. And then as I went into graduate school, I thought that I wanted to do child psychology, but actually had the opportunity to do my first practicum at San Francisco County Jail. And it was at that moment in time that I knew the area of forensic psychology was meant for me.

Wow. Wow. It sounds like a kind of a hardcore experience. What was that like?

It actually was really wonderful. I learned a lot about myself and the presence of what it means to be doing clinical work with people who are incarcerated. And I learned so much about what it meant to be a psychologist in training. And I also knew that I wanted to pair the world of child psychology with forensic psychology. And I think that that sort of transformed my pathway in going into child abuse and neglect cases and working for the court system and then actually moving into doing fitness to stand trial evaluations and Miranda evaluations. So it all sort of just kind of grew on itself year over year.

Gosh. Well, that makes sense with the child abuse and trauma kinds of things and then trauma with the things we're going to be talking about today too. So I also mentioned in the intro, you're currently campus dean of the Chicago School of Professional Psychology campus, and you oversee a portfolio of close to 2,000 students. So in addition to the clinical aspects and forensic aspects, you also have academic administrative opportunities and aspects. Tell us about that.

Yeah, absolutely. I started here at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, actually initially when I was working in the court system at Cook county doing court ordered evaluations. And I wanted to get into the world of teaching. And so I had the opportunity to become an adjunct faculty member. And then when a position opened up in the forensic psychology department, I seized that moment perfect. And I've been here ever since and just growing through being a faculty member and then starting our first mental health clinic here at the Chicago campus, and then really going into the world of what it means to be a department chair. And then, you know, I've been here for now almost 12 years, which has been an amazing experience.

Hard to believe.

Yeah.

Well, I think you and I, our paths may be originally crossed. I was teaching some graduate courses here on ethics. We were talking, talking about that earlier, years ago. I was teaching at the other campus, like in the printer's row, like way back there, back then and back there. And then I just remember, you know, the move to this campus in such a neat building, and then in no time, you know, you guys were taking another floor and another floor. So I think it really speaks, you know, nicely to the success of the Chicago school. And I think more recently in the last four or five years, there's been you know, really kind of exponential growth. One of the things that, you know, is a particular interest, I think, which maybe got us even, you know, more back together, was the initiation of the PhD in international psychology. Can you speak to that program a little bit for people that may not be aware of it?

Yeah, absolutely. So we started a doctoral program, Ph.D. in international psychology, that really uses theory and the practices of psychology to provide services to individuals and groups working in international settings. And here at the Chicago School, we really wanted our students to have a firm understanding of the interconnectivity of global systems. And we really wanted to include a hands on applied learning approach. So it's mandatory that our students actually travel abroad. And they travel abroad with faculty engaging in service learning and learning about the countries in which they're entering. And then also we also want to make sure that our students and our graduates are excellent leaders once they leave our program and that they've learned about what the importance is of cultural differences and really making them better prepared to address social justice issues, especially in a more interconnected and globalized world.

Wow. And are there specialty, like is there one a track that's more trauma and clinical and another track that's more like IO. Or business?

Exactly. So we do have a trauma concentration, and then we have an organization and systems concentration. Concentration. And it just made sense to have these two different concentrations because there are Two different ways that international psychologists could be interfacing in a globalized setting.

And most of the students in that are going to be people that are probably, I think, well, it's a requirement to already have a master's in some related kind of field or something. So it's not some kind of straight trajectory from undergrad to grad. They really need to, you know, maybe have a little seasoned experience and then add this to their repertoire.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, I know, too. So clarify for me that there's a study abroad program, and is that something that's available just to all graduate students, regardless of program or. Tell us about that. I did a way back when I went to Ghana, and this was again, back at the Printer's Row era. Whenever I have to look back at my calendar and see when that was, I think there were dinosaurs walking around Chicago. But it was a long time ago. But I was just really impressed with the fact that here I was with graduate students. And as you and I were chatting before the show, that just was never something that was ever on my radar as even a possibility as a graduate student. And even then as a faculty, I was like, this is really an amazing kind of thing. So unpack that for us. What's that all about?

Yeah, absolutely. At tcspp, we just really, truly believe about creating global citizens and ensuring that our students learn about different cultures, learn about global diversity, and learn about the importance of giving back. And so we do have many different opportunities for our students to study abroad. And to date, I think since 2011, we've had about 750 students. Now, some of them, of course, have gone twice or to two different locations, which is amazing. Yes. And, yeah, they've just. I think students are really excited about this opportunity. They talk about it a lot, and they talk about the importance of the change and the transformation that happens to them. And you can see them come back and actually bring some of those learnings into the classroom and actually into the practicum and internship in the work that they're doing with clients. That's great.

So it's really sort of a pivotal experience that then insinuates itself into a variety of other kinds of aspects of their training and productivity. So I went to Ghana. Is there. Where do they go? Where are some of the place. Everywhere.

You know, it's funny you say that. Actually, we've been to. It looks about 80 different countries since 2011.

Yeah. Wow.

Well, actually, I'll say it differently. 80 study abroad courses to different locations across the world. So we've done multiple trips to Peru, which has so many much to teach us about the culture. And Indonesia is another great one that our students have been to multiple times to South Africa. Students have been with me to Rwanda, which I love taking students with me, Switzerland, China, Japan, Germany, Israel, Zambia. It could go on and on and on every continent.

I mean, my gosh. Wow, that's fantastic. So are those programs common? I mean, I'm kind of. Back in the day, I did a lot more teaching in graduate psychology and medical programs. But are those commonplace or is that a unique kind of thing to Chicago school and graduate training?

I would say it's unique to graduate training. And I think often people will say that students don't have the time, especially given that our student population, the average age is about 34 or 35, so it's an adult population. And people said to us, well, those type of students won't have the opportunity to leave home. They have multiple demands with family and with work. And the fact of the matter is, students really want this. They want to be able to learn about diversity and global diversity in a very hands on, applied learning way. And so we just made it happen. And actually we have more students than we could ever imagine that want to be a part of.

Well, I mean, that speaks to identifying a niche where there is that desire. And I would imagine, you know, on the supply side and on the demand side, both, I mean, students wanting to do it and then need and these, you know, every continent to be able to do these different kinds of diverse projects.

Right.

That's terrific.

And I think the part for me that's important about them is it's not just to do study abroad, just to go and be observers. Right. It's about doing all of the preparatory work that our faculty do and developing, developing partnerships on the ground and those partnerships saying how it is that they want us to collaborate with them, or maybe not. And them defining what it is and what that study abroad will look like so that it's meaningful to the countries that we enter into. They're short term, limited. So it's not typical like in undergraduate programs where it's a semester or a year. These are typically 10 days short term projects, but meaningful ones that the country or international partnerships are saying to us that they really want.

That's nice. I know from the nonprofit that I started that it's really important to go in there with a respectful perspective.

Absolutely.

And to say, you know, I am a guest here, thank you for allowing me into your country, your home, your institution, whatever that might be, and then hearing from them what the needs are that we can address, as opposed to, you know, the west knows best, or this horrible hubris that oftentimes goes with good intention, but maybe a little myopia in terms of trying to be helpful in the humanitarian space, and maybe that tees us up nicely for Rwanda. One of the things when I first started to learn about your program that I was very impressed with and that I think should be in any kind of program like this is looking at outcomes and looking at impact. So I want to circle back to that. But to start, how did you get involved in Rwanda and what led you there, and what was the first project?

So it started back in 2009, actually, when the Chicago school were looking for faculty that wanted to propose a project because we were connected with the country of Rwanda. So at that time, I had paired up with Dr. Castle, and we proposed to do a trauma curriculum. We didn't know exactly to whom or how that would look, but we had proposed to the Chicago school that we wanted to put together focus groups on the ground in country to help us to define what this curriculum should look like and even if such a curriculum would be meaningful. And so that's where it started. And lucky enough, the Chicago school said yes. So in 2009, we went to Rwanda, and I was just lucky enough to be connected with somebody on the ground there that helped to put together the focus groups with different sectors across the population. Professors, lecturers, child and youth care workers, orphanage workers, teachers, headmasters, which in the United States is referred to as principals of schools. So I was able to get a really great grouping of people. And we went there and we proposed what this trauma curriculum could look like. We asked a lot of questions. It was over three weeks span of time every day, sitting with these individuals, looking at every module, every word.

Wow.

And really getting a better understanding of the culture of Rwanda. And I think it was in that moment that is a very defining moment for me, which is that I thought that I knew what trauma was about. And I thought because I was an expert witness in the court system about child abuse and about trauma and the impact on the body and the brain, I actually ended up leaving in 2009 out of Rwanda, learning so much not only about myself, but about the culture and throwing out the curriculum altogether and realizing I didn't know much at all. And I think I share that story and I share it with my students about, you know, being humble and being able to know when you don't know something and being able just to listen. And I think in those listening moments is when I really heard that this is not hitting the mark and I need to do it all over again.

Wow.

So in 2010, in my promise to those focus group members that were so gracious enough to share their stories and to open up their hearts to sharing stories about the genocide and the impact on them and their family and their community, I promised to come back in 2010 with a revised curriculum that they could look at, they could edit, they could morph, and ultimately that became version one.

Wow.

So that grew now into version eight of the Globe Hope Training initiative. Because part of the Global Hope training initiative is not only delivering the didactic portions of what Global Hope is and the training for teachers, it's really about listening to what teachers are teaching us about. About what trauma looks like and the impact of trauma on children. And then that informs the additional versions of Global Hope over time. And we also learn from them through the telemedicine component where we keep track and we follow our teachers that we train for at least three months post training. And to me, that's really important because not only is it important to have the didactic component where you're teaching something, but it's also important to make sure that you're following up so that the trainee is actually taking hold. So we're in version 8 now. We've included a Rwanda workbook where part of the exercises are for those teachers to actually work on trauma related exercises using culturally based healing practices. And then that informs the Rwanda workbook, which then exponentially grows over time as well.

I love that. Gosh. And the fact that it's a live document and process, you know, that it doesn't just one and done and. And that's kind of it. So you use a telemedicine kind of platform to do this follow up over the three month time. Tell us about that.

Yeah, absolutely. So I do have master trainers on the ground because I had promised when I started this project and I met with the Minister of Education at that time and he sort of gave me that support and approval to be able to do this project in Rwanda. I had promised him that what was important to me is that this not be something that is contingent on me alone, that it was something that I wanted to be owned by the people of Rwanda and that I wanted to make sure that over time I became less and less important to this project. So now I have master trainers on the ground that actually do these trainings. And yeah, they do these trainings I follow them to make sure that their outcomes are just as strong as the outcomes if I was doing the training and so on.

That's fantastic. Well, it's kind of a nice ethos to kind of have a train the trainer, but then also, you know, kind of your ultimate job is to put yourself out of business with it, you know, so that they then can self perpetuate for, you know, as long as. And that gives you the opportunity then to go to Zambia and South Africa.

Absolutely. And it also gives them the opportunity then to be the leaders and they feel empowered. Then to your question earlier about following up with the teachers that they train, they have a strong, strong interconnectedness then with the participants or the teachers at their training that they still actually have their own WhatsApp and they communicate with each other. And it could be five or seven years since the initial training that they were doing as master trainers. And they're still connected.

Gosh. Is it. I would imagine, I mean, there, there can be, you know, trauma that happens in, you know, families and circumstances and relationships and things like that. Is it still somewhat post genocidal kinds of things or what kinds of traumas are the kinds of things that they can handle that they train on?

Yeah. So we have about 20 modules that are incorporated to the Global Hope training initiative. And initially it's to focus on what defining what trauma is. The definition for trauma looks different for different cultures. So it's really defining that. It's talking about how does then trauma impact the body and the brain and how does that come through in children that are involved in the schoolhouse and how does that impact behavior? But then we also want to make sure that we're pairing that with the discussion about the importance of resiliency and talking about for the country of Rwanda. What I learned in those focus groups early on is the importance of family and community, and that through that and spirituality actually are the protective factors that we need to be talking about and bringing forward in training for these teachers. And then we also talk about the importance of self care because a lot of these teachers, to your question, a lot of these teachers actually lived through the genocide. And as they're going through this curriculum, they're having moments where they're having words that are starting to make sense to them about their own lived experience and actually them starting to realize that some of their own possible symptoms or behaviors are not something that's unusual for somebody who's lived through such an atrocity. And it gives them a new learned perspective too, about the children that they're seeing in the schoolhouse, that they're not problem behavior children, that they're children that are really grappling with some serious, serious psychosocial issues. And you'll hear teachers say over and over again, ah, now I know a new way of sort of being with these children and what type of different care and interaction that they need in order to not trigger them.

Gosh, it's sort of a. The whole process, you know, just seems sort of like an aspect of empathy development towards the children, but then almost kind of like a meta therapeutic aspect from themselves.

Absolutely.

As they perhaps get a language or a better understanding of putting to words what their feelings are. So from Rwanda, then there's South Africa and there's Zambia. What came next? Are they simultaneous South Africa? I can imagine, post apartheid. But what about Zambia? I'm ignorant of that country.

Yeah, no, the focus group members, I was just so privileged enough that somebody had heard about that I was coming to Rwanda to do these focus groups. And he was leading at the time in Zambia, child and youth care workers. And so he actually came to Rwanda and was part of our focus group. And he ultimately determined out of that that he wanted us to come to Zambia to train child and youth care workers. But what I had said to him, I know, what a privilege, right?

Yeah.

But what I had said to him is whatever we build for Rwanda, we can't just duplicate that for Zambia. So I would want to engage in the same process, which is to do a focus group in Zambia to learn, to listen, to modify, adapt and get ultimately his oversight over that curriculum with the ultimate goal that was the same for Rwanda, which is that I want to train a group of child and youth care workers that can ultimately be in the bastard trainers who can train others and trainers train others and train others. And interestingly enough, they wanted a different type of outcome too. They wanted to be able to have what they called safe parks where special places where children can go that have master trainers there. So it was churches, it was literally just rural areas that were parks where children can go. And they would have people there that were trained in the Global Hope training curriculum besides teachers.

I mean, that could be anybody, so to speak.

Right. So in Zambia, they didn't want to train teachers. They didn't think that that was going to have the most profound impact. Whereas in Rwanda, the Minister of Education said, I will support this curriculum, but I want you to first focus on the training of headmasters and I want you to focus on training them first so they understand the importance of what it is that you're training them about and that they will then support the teachers to whom report to them to be able to then go through the curriculum. Whereas I initially thought when I proposed this to the Minister of Education, because what I had learned from the focus groups was to focus on teachers because they have the most profound impact in Rwanda. They have impact on family, they have impact on community, and they have an impact on children because children are with them for most of the day. So long story short is in Rwanda, they wanted to train headmasters first, then teachers. In Zambia, they wanted to train child and youth care workers, mainly orphanage workers, to be able to have the most profound impact. So it's just about shifting and adapting and learning and listening to what it is, as I was saying earlier about what the community is telling you and the country is telling you that they want.

Right. So if you went in there to say, well, Zambia would, this needs to be school based, it just wouldn't work.

It wouldn't.

And what would you know about Zambia? So I love that collaborative aspect of it then too. So how about South Africa? What model did they like or how did they get involved?

Actually, that model was very different. They wanted to train at a very different level. They wanted to train mainly those at the Department of Education level. And so I did a training through Global Hope that way. And nine provinces came, sent their leaders within those provinces through the Department of Education and we trained them and then ultimately they became the master trainers that are then responsible to then share the curriculum through each of the provinces, which now which I think service is something. I can't even remember the number of children, but it's. And it's enormous amount of children.

Gosh, wow, that's great. So we're going to circle back to kind of what comes next with that. So, you know, I know you, but our audience, not everyone in our audience does. What drives your passion for this? I mean, I hear it in your voice. I know your history. I know what you've done and the depth and granularity and heart and soul that are part of that. But where does that come from?

I honestly, I don't know if I don't. I don't know really, other than I know when I put my foot on the ground in Rwanda and I had the opportunity to listen to those stories and the experiences that those teachers and the focus group members and lecturers that they. I felt so privileged that they were willing to share their story with me, that there was nothing that I didn't feel like I needed to do. I owed it to them in some way. And so I think that's what keeps me focused. And I think about the teachers that we've trained. We now have 50 schools that are trained in the country of Rwanda.

Congratulations. 50?

Yeah. It's wonderful. And then out of that, you know, you hear these stories through the telemedicine component and through just going back and visiting. I think now it's about 14 or 15 times I've been back. But in going back, you hear the stories of how these teachers are making a profound difference in these children's lives. And you hear these children's testimony. You know, I initially thought, well, can Global Hope really have an impact? And I think it's good to reflect on those things because that changes and morphes the curriculum and makes it stronger and better, if you're always grappling with those questions. But I think when I hear these stories of these children just being impacted and what the teachers are able to do and their ideas about how they're making an impact on children is really what inspires me and it humbles me. I'll give you one example. When I went back, I was gifted a bunny. And I know that sounds crazy to some, but in the country of Rwanda, the idea of gifting a cow is extremely important. It has such a meaningful part of their culture, and it really means that you are inseparable. You are now part of the family, and you're very interconnected. So, of course cows are expensive. But some of the children actually gifted me a bunny. And when I learned, it was really sweet. And when I learned the story about how this came to be, it really came from the teachers. So they were trained in the Global Hope Training initiative. But what they realized is that when they came back, they realized that there's so many, such a huge number of children that they can't do it alone. They can't be just only in individual meetings with children. There's too many. And so what they decided to do was to pull together a group of children and create an after school program, which we now call the Children's Hope Club. And in that after school program, one of the schools that we trained decided what they wanted to do is the teachers that were trained would pull their money together, and a bunny cost $6 US dollars. They pooled their money together. And what they did is they went and they gave that bunny to the most vulnerable of child in that Children's Hope Club and then said to them, you are now responsible for reproducing that bunny and gifting then that bunny to the next most vulnerable of child, and so on and so on and so on. And what that taught them was about the importance of community, but it also taught them about empowerment. And now they're able to sell those bunnies on the market to pay for their school fees. So they feel a strong sense of pride and commitment to their education. And that's important because we know children who have been exposed to trauma. Trauma can impact their ability to focus. It can impact their ability to concentrate. And now they're getting the assistance of these children, teachers that are believing in them, and getting culturally based healing practices to help them to focus and to concentrate in the. In the schoolhouse. But then simultaneously, being gifted, a bunny teaches them about entrepreneurship. It teaches them about what it means to give something to another. And now you hear the children talking about this. Children's Hope Club is their family. They talk about themselves as brothers and sisters. So I say that all to say that I never thought that this would be the outcome of having bunny farms across Rwanda, which there's numerous ones, and pig farms and vegetable farms, all for the same purpose. Right. The cultivation of land is also important. And some of the stories of healing happen when they're cultivating a coffee farm or a vegetable farm together. And maybe some. Some don't know that pigs are important, and they actually help to increase crop yield. So they actually farm out a pig to one family and one child, and then that person gives the pig to the next family and child. But all of this came from the teachers. And I think what I'm saying is that sometimes I learned that it's in those moments of telemedicine or just sitting back listening that all of these amazing things happen. And they have so much to teach me every day, and that's what keeps me inspired and passionate.

That's great. Wow. I just love that story with the bunnies. And then just the whole other aspects of that. I mean, it makes me think about, you know, you and I, with our, you know, scientific hats on and our sharp pencils and our calculators think about clinical outcomes. But then that, that kind of an outcome, you know, there's no little survey instrument that can keep track of that. I think that's where we also, you know, folks in the global humanitarian space, we. I, you know, I feel like, you know, we learn so much from those that we work with. Just like your point of saying, well, you can't just, you know, mimeograph what worked in Rwanda and expect it to scale to Zambia or South Africa or anyplace else, and to have that mutual respect. I mean, because it's. It's. I think there's a certain level in most situations of distrust or fear, you know, when someone that's a stranger comes over, you know, care if it's from the United States or from Europe or wherever. And to be able to have that depth and that longevity of a relationship with those folks. I mean, you've got, you know, version eight, and you got a bunny. I mean, those are.

I know. Who has reproduced itself many times over. So I go visit the bunny farm. Great.

The great, great, great, great, great bunny farm.

So I have great, great rabbit grandchildren.

So one of the things, maybe on the hard side of these kinds of things, not that the work of this is not hard, but when I think about Rwanda and my experience there, it's been 15 years ago now, and thank goodness things are much different than. Because that was like just 10 years post genocide, and I was in a hospital setting, a much different kind of scenario. But there's a doctor, James Urbinski, who did work with Doctors Without Borders. And one of the things he talked about, there's a documentary, we'll put it in the show notes that he's a part of. So he had done work in Rwanda, post genocide. He had done work in current, like live in Somalia. And the issue of almost kind of feeling the impact of trauma yourself. And I just wonder like, you know, I felt that personally as a dis. I mean, I've had times where, you know, I come back and I have a greater gratitude, you know, perhaps, and a greater appreciation for things that I'd maybe taken for granted. But, you know, also there's. There's trauma by proxy and these kinds of things. And maybe sort of. You spoke to that in a bit of the. Of a reverse of that, of the teachers, you know, being able to have better empathy and maybe, you know, being able to learn some things. But does it impact you or the students in. In some challenging kinds of ways? And how have you guys. If so, how have you guys been able to deal with that?

Yeah, I think it does impact me. And I know when I came back in 2009, after first being there the first time, I think I was forever changed. And to your point, it gives you a greatest sense of gratitude. I think you grapple with the issues of maybe guilt of privilege. What does that mean? And I don't think that ever goes away. And I think it's okay to continue to grapple with it but as you're grappling with does it does sometimes take a hold of you. And I think the importance of self care and recognizing, you know, when enough when it's just a little bit too much. And I think doing a project like this and I'm sure you know is it's not for the faint of heart. Right. And that there's so many needs that are happening and you feel so compelled to want to be able to do so much. But it's sort of creating boundaries for yourself about what is possible. And I think, I think sometimes I find myself saying to myself things of the of like it's okay that you aren't able to tackle that issue that you know, stay focused over here because sometimes you can feel pulled off in different directions and some of the stories that you hear are so painful but yet you want to give, you want to listen and you want to give voice to them. But at the same time it's like how do you not allow that to sort of break you down and, and keep. And use that to keep you focused and diligent and still striving forward with the goal that you had in mind? Of course, as I was saying before, with the collaboration of others, but not, not getting distracted.

Yeah, it's such a parallel to you know, clinical work no matter where you're at. You know, I could imagine the same kind of thing with forensic work in the jails or private practice. I mean I back in the day when I was, you know, seeing patients and kids and families, you know, it'd be the same kind of thing. You know, I would, you know, as Freudians would call it a countertransference. You know, you have these feelings and sometimes they're to institutions I think maybe more so in the, you know, international venues, maybe institutions too and corrections and things like that and wanting to have what you mentioned early on, kind of that social justice aspect, but also realizing, you know, there are limitations. There's finite resources in international projects, there's finite resources in families and patients lives and our own as well. Too.

Well said.

Yes, I think that's really a good point. I think the aspect too that allows because I know this was the case with our Ghana trip of time in the evenings to process because I think a lot of times, like you said, that people don't necessarily realize, you know, what's going on. And it's a very eye opening situation. I had a, my very first global health project was in the late 90s. It was with an organization. My first time with Them and we had gone to Ha Long Bay in Vietnam. So we flew very. All of us came from different places in the United States. It was US based group at that point. And we flew into Hanoi and then Hanoi to Ha Long Bay is. I forget how many hours but it's a bit of an overland hike and we, I forget we had maybe which night it was either the first night in Ha Long Bay or the first night in Hanoi. And we had a primary care physician that just, it was that person's first trip and I think they sort of realized the distance that they were actually away from home and maybe had not had a whole lot first medical mission. And it really, I don't know how much, you know, historically international travel, but just really hadn't even laid hands on a patient yet and was having a traumatic panic attack situation, so to speak. And basically I got a knock on my door like two in the morning from the group director saying we've got this issue. And I met and talked with that person and basically it was to triage that person back to be able to get, get on a plane and make arrangements and get that person back home. So I mean it's, it's, you know, I think that, you know, which always then has me have great respect for people that do do that because it can be a very eye opening and sometimes it's a, it is a one and done to say that was an amazing experience and I really, you know, I'm glad I was able to do that one. But that, you know, I'm gonna go do something else. Which is great in the graduate world because that's you. You sample and you see what you love and you find your passion and you see what you're not so hot about and you know, you avoid those kinds of things. So learning about what you want to do as much as, you know, maybe what you know isn't your passion or what you. Isn't a drive is just as important.

So yeah, I loved your comment about the importance of debriefing at the end of the evening. I do find that extremely important and I think that's an essential component to our study abroad and field experiences with students because there's so much that they're grappling with and challenged by and then personally yourself challenged and grappling with.

It's not a unique circumstance. I mean, I think sometimes people feel very alone with that feeling themselves without realizing am I the only one? Everyone else seems to be, you know, handling this just fine, you know, and you don't have to be like, you know, a meltdown or anything, but it just can be certain kinds of things that having that opportunity to share and, you know, in a respectful way to each each other in a respectful way to what the issues are that you're talking about. You know, it's like sometimes in a case conference or, you know, morbidity and mortality in a hospital conference. You know, it's those kinds of things where you can be very honest, no judgments and, you know, and sharing and supportive of one another. So. So, like I said, it's been 15 years ago since I was last in Rwanda. How is it today? How are things there? What's. What's your latest experience with Rwanda?

Well, I love going back every year. It's such a privilege to go back. And it's an amazing country. It's a country that has so much to teach us, I think, about reconciliation and the importance of remembrance. We're coming upon the month of mourning, which will be happening in the month of April. That was 1994, was the start of the genocide in the month of April. And so it has so much to teach us about. How about the importance of community, reconciliation, healing. I always tell my students I wish sometimes that I could just bottle up what it is that they have. When you see individuals there, you're just like, what is that special sauce or potion that I just want to put into a bottle? Exactly. And I want to bring that back here because sometimes in those moments when you're here back in the United States, sometimes you just want to be able to remember what. What's really important in life. And I think they've got it right. And not to mention just the enormous amount of growth in their economy. It's really remarkable to see Dolly, and I thought that's every year there's a new building that's growing and morphing and just their investment in the country and its people. It's really remarkable to see.

Fantastic. Well, and again, that's the result in a relative, you know, in a generation's time. I mean, to be able to go from, you know, in 25 years to this kind of an experience and. And to do it without a denial of it, but like you said, of, you know, remembrance and making that sort of part and parcel of the fabric of who they are and their culture and absolutely, again, how much we can learn from.

Exactly. Especially at this time. Especially at this time.

So back to you a little bit like, one of the things, you know, I have been very impressed with your career in the Sense of how you manage. I mean, every time, like in full disclosure for this, this podcast, like, where in the world is Tiffany? You know, no, I'm going to be in, you know, I'm going to be in Istanbul. No, I'm going to be. Can we push it back to, you know, I'm gonna be. Cause your passport must be just about worn out. So how do you manage like maintaining this initiative generation after generation on top of all your other responsibilities? And I also wanna learn a little bit more, a little deeper dive about the Chicago School Global and those things. How do you have a clone?

I do have an amazing team and I think if I can go back to the Global Training Initiative, as I was mentioning, it's really the people that are on the ground now, it's the people of Rwanda that are owning this curriculum and they deserve all the credit. They have taken it and have run with it and those teachers are doing amazing things in these 50 schoolhouses that now have these children's hope clubs that across, across that country are serving over, you know, three, four thousand students now.

Wow.

So I don't want to take, I don't want to take the credit, honestly. I think that's where I say there's just so much to learn and I have a team who just is amazing and is able to really help keep me on track.

Well, I get that, but I also just want to applaud you. I mean, I think you have been catalytic in being able to do these things and being able to go in with a appreciation and a mutual respect for those that you work with, be it your team members or whatever. I mean you, you, you've orchestrated so many different kinds of things and you're continuing development in terms of leadership at the Chicago School. I think, you know, very much speaks to that. So we have this new project, we need to get this done. Tiffany.

Thanks Chris, that's really kind.

Well, absolutely. It's because I know it's not. One of these projects is an easy task. Each one of these projects is a full time job and you have like 12 of them. So I think that's really impressive. So for students, for listeners to this that maybe are interested in starting a NGO or want to get more involved in these kinds of things, what bits of advice, where should people go look at? How can they? We'll put links into the programs in the show notes that the Chicago school offers, but it could be somewhat overwhelming. What would be your advice of where to start? Where should they start to look?

Yeah, I think it goes Back to what I learned, which is really entering into a country and figuring out what they want and that, you know, leverage your understanding and your expertise and your own training. But at the same time, don't be afraid to let it go because there's so much to learn from the country that you're going into. Which was what I was saying before I ended up throwing out those first, you know, modules of the trauma curriculum. And I think thinking about an NGO perspective, if I have it right, but don't quote me on this, you know, most NGOs kind of fail within the first five years.

They're startups.

They're startups, exactly. You know, you have a lot of gust, you have a lot of passion and drive and determination and you maybe see a need or the community is telling you of a need and you want to be able to be of help. But as I was saying before, it's not for the faint of heart. You have to really have a long term strategic vision and you can get easily distracted by all that's coming at you. And I think it's staying connected to those international partners on the ground that are giving you the truth and are telling you what they need and just, you know, listen and follow, follow the pathway that they're creating for you. I remember that I would never have had the opportunity to be able to start the first Training of the 30 schools in Rolando if it wasn't for one of the headmasters in that focus group that introduced me to the mayor at the time of Rolando. And it was that connection that allowed me to start the Global Hope training initiative in its expansion and to be able to then start the movement into these after school programs by listening to those teachers on the ground there. And that's where the bunny farms are, that's where the pig farms are, the vegetable farms. And, you know, so much is just listening and following the pathway that people are creating for you and the doors that they open. And I'd say the last thing about it would be be graceful with yourself. I think all too often we beat ourselves up, especially as women, and saying that we're never doing enough. And it's in those moments to say, okay, am I doing enough or is this okay? Is this enough? And it's in those moments to sometimes just have grace with yourself, especially as you're launching an NGO and you're seeing it, you know, all the way through, to say, okay, and not to beat yourself up, that's great, and that you'll

get there, that's good. Advice. I think you have been a good role model. I think of Jennifer White, who went through the international PhD.

Amazing, amazing graduate.

Yeah. She's been a guest. I love her to death. She did a chapter in why Global Health Matters book. And then I had the opportunity to go see her last year, give testimony at the United nations with her prosecution in 1948. And. Yeah, and she's. I mean, as you were saying that it just.

She came to me with. To Rwanda as well.

Did she?

Well, she did.

Why am I not surprised?

Yeah.

I mean, and she has really put that ethos into effect. I mean, with. With Bosnia Herzegovina and the photography projects and empowering people with. With a camera, you know, and a voice. So it's those kinds of things where I think that you were talking about, like meeting with the mayor or the kinds of stuff that she's done or other colleagues that we've worked with and both know that it's the relationship sometimes almost just that tipping point or that linchpin or that point of leverage with perhaps one person or one institution, that mayor or that key, you know, figure out in a Sangoma in South Africa or whatever that might be that then can kind of lead into the other kinds of things. And again, it's based upon mutual trust, admiration, respect, shared goals, but diversity of skills, abilities, and tools that then create the chemistry that then spawns or creates whatever the new thing is that wouldn't have been able to happen before.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It actually was the mayor who said to me at the time, it's great, Tiffany, that you're showing outcomes and positive outcomes on the training of the teachers in my district. But now I want you to take it one next level. I want to know how those teachers that have been trained are now impacting the children in my district. And that was the interest of him. And I followed that lead. I followed that pathway to then be able to create sort of information that could come back to him in a meaningful way for his district to see how it is that those children are impacted. And it was in that process that I'm hearing about the bunny farms and I'm hearing about the vegetable farms and the coffee farms and the, you know, the pigs and so on, and was able to bring that information back along with children's testimonials, where I was able to do a qualitative analysis and give that back to him. And then that built the stronger sense to your point of trust of saying, she heard me. She brought me back the information that I needed. Now you can train others you can. You can expand within my district. And I've never forgotten him. Every time I go back, I try to meet with him. One, because he's an amazing leader.

Yeah.

But secondly, he was the one who opened up that door for me, and I'll never forget it.

Well, look what it's yielded. So with all your big to do list, kind of what's next for you? What's on your future agendas?

My future agendas is keeping focused on the Global HOPE Training initiative and now this large byproduct, which are the Children's Hope Clubs, and making sure that we expand upon the trainings in a meaningful way. And then. I haven't announced this to you, Chris, but I actually have just been asked to lead a college of medicine. And so I'll be expanding in that role.

Wonderful.

I know. So maybe there'll be a new expansion

of that integrative aspect. Oh, my gosh.

Right.

Because you have nursing in Texas now, right?

Exactly, exactly. And so I'll be joining tcs, which is our education system, and starting and working with them on a college of medicine.

Wow. Wow. That's fantastic. I had no idea.

I know, right? Recent news.

Well, depending upon when the show hits, if there's links and stuff, we'll put all that in the show notes. So speaking of that and speaking of some of the things we've talked about, for listeners who want to know more about the programs or to get in touch with you or whatever, what might be some of the best ways to learn more and just you can say it here, people can hear it. And then for listeners that want to go back and get links and stuff, we'll put hypertext links in the show notes.

Yeah, I think reaching out to me on LinkedIn is a great way. Calling the Chicago school. And then as I transition into this new sort of leadership around the College of Medicine, certainly reaching out to TCs, I think those are the best ways to stay connected. And then certainly through, they can learn more around the Children's Hope Clubs. If they go to Google and look through that up and they can see some of the work that we're doing there and the children's testimonies, some videos about how we incorporate culturally based healing practices into the work that we do with children in after schools.

That's fantastic. Good, good. Well, we'll get all those put into the show notes. So, Tiffany, I know it's been a chaotic day, more so for me, but. But I'm so glad we're able to do this. Oh, you're so sweet to say that. I just so looked forward.

I've marveled just watching you over these years. So. And all that you do and the impact that you have across the globe. It's amazing.

Well, it's a mutual admiration society, so it's, I feel like the history just to give a tip of the hat to the Chicago School. I mean to have been involved. I mean, I think, I hate to guess, I should guess low rather than high, but it's probably been 20 years. You know that I've adjunctively taught here periodically. I've taught assessment, I've taught, taught ethics, I've taught professional development and been honored to guest speak around global health and humanitarian things. And it's just again, you like your colleagues, just have such an energy and such a great set of sort of like the intellectual chops to be able to back up ideas and to pursue new kinds of things to inspire students to then be Jennifer Whites of the world, that kind of of things. So, so just it's, it's a, I'm always happy to be here at the Chicago school and this, you know, just a double treat to be able to spend time with you as well that you've, you've landed here long enough for us to have a wonderful conversation. So thank you for being so gracious and having it fit into your schedule.

Thank you so much.

Chris Living a Life in Full is a production of Stout Media, a subsidiary of Gordian Knot, LLC. Assistant Producer Gracie Wong Music Dan O' Brien Executive Producer and Host, Dr. Chris Stout. To learn more, stop by our website A lifeinfull for show notes and please recommend us to your friends and subscribe on your favorite platform. And as for the obligatory disclaimer, this podcast is for general information uses only and does not constitute the practice of psychology, medicine, nutrition or other professional health care services, including the giving of medical or psychological advice. No doctor patient relationship is formed. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, I take conflicts of interest seriously. For all of my disclosures as well as show notes, please see livingalifeinfull.org podcast and my LinkedIn profile while thanks and until next time,