Making the World a Better Place

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Welcome to beyond you'd why Podcast, where we go beyond just talking about your why and actually helping you discover and then live your why. And if you listen to my show, you know that every week I talk about a particular why and then I bring on somebody that has that why so we can see how their why has played out in their life. And today we're going to be talking about the why of better way to find a better way and share it. Now, if you remember, people with this why constantly seek better ways to do things. They can't stop themselves from trying to do it better. They take virtually anything and want to improve upon it, make it better, and share their improvement with the world. They invent things. As you discuss something with them, they're asking themselves, well, what if we did it this way? Or maybe something else even better would work. People with this particular why contribute with constant innovations, better, better processes and systems and operate under the motto often please never satisfied. They are very good at associating, which means taking from one industry and applying it to another. Now, today I've got a very interesting guest for you. His name is Dr. John Izzo. Now, Dr. John Izzo has been a pioneer on creating successful businesses and emerging work Trends for over 25 years. Dr. Izzo was a pioneer on employee engagement and social responsibility with his book Awakening Corporate Soul back in 1994. He was a trailblazer on shifting generational values when he wrote Value the New York work ethic in 2000. He showed how individuals shape the future with stepping up in 2014. And now he's blazing a new trail showing businesses why a rising class of people worldwide will shape the economy of the future with his latest book, the Purpose Revolution. This rising class is not one of nationality, income, race or gender, but one that aspires to have a good life while doing good. Now, John has spoken to over 1 million people, advised over 500 companies, authored eight best selling books, and helped some of the world's most admired companies. And he's now known for his compelling combination of leading edge research, riveting storytelling, practical ideas to make a difference starting now, and a keen sense of where the future is going so your organization will leave inspired and ready to act. His clients include IBM, Qantas, the Mayo Clinic, Verizon, RBC, Telus, WestJet, Humana, Microsoft and McDonald's. John, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Gary. I was getting tired listening to that bio. I thought, my God, I've been a busy guy.

You sound like a busy guy. That is quite a bio. And you've been doing this for quite a long time.

Yeah, yeah. You know, really, for the last 30 years, I've been out doing this work. And, you know, it's an exciting journey that continues now in my early 60s, so it's exciting to still be very much in the conversation.

So how did you get on this journey? How did all this start for you?

Well, that's a really fascinating question. I think, you know, from when I was a very young child, I really, really. The two things that I remember about myself, and I'm sure this is true of many people in terms of their why. The first thing is I was always kind of a do gooder. I always felt like I wanted people to be more compassionate, more kind. I wanted the world to be more just and good and injustice and lack of compassion always bothered me as a young child. And the second thing is, I was always a Type A. You know, my mother said when I was really young, you know, I just. You could never get me to sit down. John, will you just sit down? And later, will you just be quiet? Right. And so I had this intense curiosity and this type A energy rooted in this deep belief that the world should be more just and more kind. And so that's how it began. I was an ordained Presbyterian minister for seven years in my early 20s. And then I went back to get a PhD thinking I might go teach in seminary somewhere. And make a long story short, I got a fire in the belly for the impact work had on people's lives and on society. And my journey to make the workplace better, more successful and more compassionate began. And I've been on that journey ever since.

That's interesting. You know, when you talk to somebody that has your why. So my why is to find a better way as well. So I get you. I hear that, you know, what you say feels right to me because I see the same thing. How can we make the world a better place? And you've been on the journey of being a minister, which is helping to make the world a better place through God. Right. And then you change that over to working in the corporate world with Awakening Corporate Soul. So tell us a little bit, what was Awakening Corporate Soul about? And why did you write that book?

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting. It was in 1994, and now you almost take it for granted that companies see the connection between treating people with respect and dignity and business success. But in 1994, not so much. You know, a few kind of crazies like me were starting to write books with the word soul in it. I use soul deliberately because soul is kind of very deep word. You know, it's deeper than engagement. It's deeper than, you know, job satisfaction. Soul. When you say, boy, that person has soul, what you mean is they're all in. Everything that they have is in that whatever they're doing, their music, their art, their marriage, their family, their job. And we all know also that there's a deep well of commitment that people have for the things they care about the most. Just look at most people, for example, with their kids, and you see the incredible passion and commitment that there is within a human being. And so in 1994, I kind of mused, if you will, on the idea of what if all of that could come into the workplace? What if you didn't check 50 or 60% of your soul, if you will, at the door? And I also wrote it with a yogi named Eric Klein, who had also kind of. He was a yoga priest and left and went into the business world just as I was a minister and went into the business world. And so we use the language of the spiritual traditions of east and west to think about what it might mean to create a different kind of workplace and a different kind of work for ourselves. So we went out and interviewed 3,000 people who. And we asked them a very simple question. Tell us about the times in your career where your soul was all in. In the workplace, however you define that and tell us what brought that out in you. And so we began to dissect the anatomy of what helped people do that. And that was the beginning of my journey to frame that conversation. But it came out of watching Gary, how many people were leaving so much at the door when they went into work. And in many cases, the workplace was literally diminishing their spirit. So by the time they left that Friday at 5, they had to recuperate for the weekend, you know, to hopefully be even back to 50% by Monday.

What did you learn about the corporate soul?

Yeah, well, you know, again, it's interesting, way back when we did those interviews four and a half years later, Gallup did these big quantitative studies on engagement. And not surprisingly, they discovered what we discovered in those interviews with 3,000 people, that there were really four paths that people found to find that true kind of energy at work. The first was what I came to call. We came to call the path of self, which is where I was really doing work that was true to who I was. It was a work that was a fit to who I was and the things I cared about and the gifts that I had. And of course, you see that in your own work around the why there was alignment between my gifts and my passions and what I was doing. The second was the path of craft. And what we discovered was that human beings love to do something with excellence. We love to feel like we have a challenge, a mountain to climb, a puzzle to solve. So people would talk about, you know, their most soulful times at work or when they really felt they were on a path of excellence and. And were being challenged. So, in fact, the harder in some ways things were to achieve, the more they were all in. The third was the path of contribution. And this shouldn't surprise people. People said when I really saw my work made a difference, that it was actually making a difference in the lives of our customers, our clients, our communities. Then people were all in. In work when they could see, wow, this work is not just about task, it's about a contribution. And finally, what we came to call the path of community, which was when people felt a deep sense of family, a sense of community, a sense of camaraderie with the people they work with, especially with their leaders, but also with their colleagues that they were all in. And so path of self, craft, contribution, and community. And together that really made up what really has been the bedrock of my work. It's amazing now, 25 years later, and when I share those with people, they still hold up. Right. That's. That's the same way we still find a way to be all in and work. And if leaders can create that in a workplace and you can create that in your life, then you wind up being all in. And we all want to be all in.

Yeah. So it was self, the path of self, path of craft. Was it C, R, A, F, T. Yeah, craft, Craft.

Like a craftsman, right? Yeah.

And then a path of contribution and a path of community.

Yeah, exactly.

Excellent. That makes a lot of sense.

And you know, back to what you were talking about even then, and I love your idea of, like, a better way. I was saying there must be a better way for the workplace to be right. You know, one of the biggest impacts on me, Gary, was a guy in my. The last church that I served before I shifted my ministry, if you will, to the corporate world. And it was a guy named Hollis hall who was about 55 years old and worked in a steel mill in Youngstown, Ohio. And they were all kind of closing down at the time, if you remember. And literally you could tell at 55 years old that once upon a time, this guy was the life of the party. You know, he had a spark in his eye. You could see he was an innovative, creative guy. And it was all gone. Gary, he was 55 years old and it was all gone. And he was like a shell, you could tell of his former self. And I realized that had happened because of his experience at work, not at home, not on the weekend, not with his family or kids. And I thought, that's not good enough. Surely the workplace can be successful by making people more whole and respected. And that was how my journey really began.

In search of a better way, Right?

Exactly. In search of a better way. And then all the way to today, right. Where you know, in the purpose revolution and asking the question, you know, there must be a better way for a business to be in the world. Maybe business can contribute to solving the biggest problems that we face as a society. And again, guess what? It's also good business to be in the business of doing good. So again, my whole life has been about a better way and in the process wrote these three self help books about finding happiness. Because guess what? I thought there must be a better way to be happy. So.

It is kind of like the theme of my journey, there must be a better way. And you know, one of the interesting things about this why, Gary, I've thought about it since I took your online thing, which is great, people should take it, it's really useful, is that I think one thing that my work adds to this is so the why. It seems to me you're helping people see your basic way in the world. You know, this is my why. This is how I like to shape things around me. I think where some of my work that deepens that for people is it's great to want a better way, but what do you want a better way for? So for me, I go back to my childhood. What are the two things that bothered me the most? Injustice and how we treated the environment and people not being kind and compassionate. But my why was a better way, but I've applied that better way to the things that I care about. Some people want people to be more successful, make more money. Nothing wrong with that. That's the value they bring to their passion to give people a better way. So thank goodness we all don't have the same things we care about because we can apply our better way for other people. It must be a better way to drive a car so they spend their whole life finding a way to find a better car so we all can have a great experience on the road.

So one of the things that you and I have not yet talked about is there's your why, then there's your how, and then your what. Right, why you do what you do, how you do what you do, and lastly, what it is you do. And so based on, you know, just the conversations that you and I have had so far, the way I would word your why, how, and what is that your why is to find a better way and share it, which is what you've done in all of your books. Now, how you go about doing that is by making sense of the complex and challenging, figuring things out, putting it all together. And then what it is you bring is a way to contribute, add value, and have an impact in the lives of other people.

Yeah, perfect. I love it. And I think what I love about that model, and this fits certainly with my experience over, you know, working with. With companies and individuals and leaders all these years, is that you've got to know all three of those things. Right. Because that's, you know, so it's great to have a why. But in my case, my how, as you said, and I think that's well put, my publisher at Barrett Kohler said your gift is to go out and see what's happening and then boil it down to a few simple truths. Right. That's my how and so. You're exactly right.

So then maybe, maybe your how it would be to simplify. So it might be that your why is to find a better way. How you do that is by simplifying the complex. And then what it is you bring is a way to contribute, add value, and have an impact in people's lives.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. I've often felt like I wasn't really the guy who was would come up with the blazing new idea, but I would be the person who would be able to see through the noise, to simplify things. And one of the things I hear often when I give my talks at leadership events is they say, what we loved about your kind of talks, it fits with what you just said, is that I felt inspired and you told these great stories, but I knew what I wanted to do when I left. You gave me some really practical things to do, and I Think that's because of my capacity to take all these complex ideas and then boil it down to a few simple things that if you do them, it's probably going to shift the game.

Exactly, yeah. So when you begin your presentations, if your first conversation with the audience is about why you do what you do and then how you go about doing it, and then what it is you bring, it will allow them to instantly get that. They get it anyways through the course of the time that you speak. But it's not so succinct. It's not so simple to understand. Now, who is this guy? Dr. John Izzo? What are we gonna listen to today? What are we gonna get out of this? Right, they're gonna get some great stories and some great information and some in a few simple steps. But it's nice to have that up front. So the questions about who you are dissipate, and then I get to listen for those simple little pearls that he's going to give me so that it can have an impact in my life. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. Makes a lot of sense.

So you went from awakening corporate soul to Value Shift the New York work ethic. Now give us a synopsis of now. What was that one about?

Yeah, so Value Shift the New Work ethic, which I wrote in 2000, and a lot of you don't remember, but then right now we again take for granted the idea that, well, millennials and then later Gen Z and maybe even the whole society started to see work in a different way. But in 2000, really, all the people were saying, you know, some young people are kind of funny, you know, some funny things going on. And so I named these six shifts that I believed would shape the way people saw work in the decades ahead. And they've all held up. I said, people are going to want their work to serve a noble cause. People are going to constantly want change and growth. And I said, people are going to want to have integration between their life and work. They don't want two selves, the self on the weekend and the self at work. They're going to want to have this blend between work and personal life. So it turns out, and I think one of the unique contributions we made is we said these really were not millennial shifts. They were shifts the whole society was making. Or as I said at the time, there's actually not much difference between a 20 something slacker and a 50 something convert to voluntary simplicity. You know, that the reality was the whole society was starting to see work and its place in our lives and what we wanted from it in a different way. And again, you know, 20 years later, it's all held up. So. And again, I don't really think, again, I should take credit for coming up with that idea, but I was pretty good about going out and looking at everything, all the research that was doing, and then saying, let's simplify this, let's make sense of it. What it's saying is that the whole way we're all seeing work is changing, and this is how it's changing.

Awesome. Okay, so then you went in 2014, so you went from the four paths to the six ships shifts. And then in 2014 you wrote stepping up. Now what was that one about?

Yeah, and in between, by the way, just that my wife always says I love numbers. So there were the four paths, the six shifts. And then in 2005, I wrote a book called the five secrets you must discover before you die, which, you know, really explored the other part, Gary, of my fascination as a young person, which, which was why some people had made a bigger difference and were happier than others. And so I went out and interviewed these 200 people, 230 people actually, from 60 to 106, with 18,000 years of life experience with only one thing in common. Someone nominated them as the happiest, wisest older person they knew. And it was actually a PBS and Biography Channel TV series. It was in like 35 languages. Right. So actually, ironically, the best selling book I've ever written was this self help book around the five secrets you must discover before you die. So I did this little foray into the, into the realm of happiness and meaning before I wrote in 2014, my book Stepping up, which was again same model. I asked the question, you know, all my books begin with a question and it is kind of a better way question. In five secrets you must discover before you die, why are some people happier sustainably than others are? Awakening corporate soul. Why are some people all in at work? And some companies get people to be all in. So stepping up, I asked the question, why do some people step up and make a bigger difference than other people do in work and in society? So I went on and interviewed all these people who had stepped up, from kids who started an anti bullying movement to the folks who invented the Starbucks Frappuccino, the two frontline folks in Santa Monica, California, the two little Starbucks. And I said, what's the anatomy of why some people make a bigger difference than others do? And that was what that book was about. And it's Made a big splash in the corporate world. That's probably been my most popular book in many ways, in the business world, not surprisingly, because what do most leaders want most of all? They want people to step up, find a better way. And so it was a fun book to write, and it's been a fun book to speak about all these years.

So give us the answer. Why do some people step up and some don't?

Well, you know, there's about nine or ten things I talk about in the book, but I give you one of my favorite ones is that. Well, two. First step, there's people who step up and make a difference or are naive enough to think they can. And this sounds so kind of small, but when we surveyed people, when I wrote the book Stepping up, why don't you step up more in your life to make a big difference at work, in society, in your community? Number one reason people said, I'm only one person. It won't matter if I step up. Well, it turns out that people who step up and make a difference think differently. They think I do matter. I can make a difference. I'm naive enough to think if I step up and take action, something will change. The second thing is that one of my favorite chapters in the book is leadership is not a position. And it turns out most people who step up don't worry about whether they've been assigned or given authority to change something. They don't worry about whether it's in their job description. They just simply ask, what can I do, where I am in the position that I'm in? And by the way, that is the ultimate question of stepping up is what part am I playing in any situation I'm in and what can I do about it? Not what part is someone else playing and what can they do about it, which is how many people live their lives?

You know, I love what you've done is you've taken these complex. What seem like complex questions, and you've just said, I'm going to freaking find an answer to this. I'm going to go out and I'm going to ask as many people as I got to ask to figure this sucker out. And then I'm going to distill it down to a couple of things that we can actually use.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And first of all, it's a lot of fun. You know, one of the careers that I considered besides the ministry, and then later just speaking and writing, was a journalist. And the reason I wanted to be a journalist is I loved, even as a young Child listening to people tell their stories and then get my chance to tell the story my own way based on what they told me. And so I love the experience of listening to others and then trying to distill it. It's a lot of fun for someone with that instinct that I have. Wow.

Okay. So we went from stepping up in 2014 to now the Purpose Revolution, which is your current book. Tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, well, in some ways, it's almost like bookends, because 1994, I said, how do you get people all in at work and what role might business play in society? And I fast Forward now to 2018 and realized that one of the four paths I talked about in 1994 has emerged even more powerfully than many of the others, which is this path of contribution. So I started to notice that there was this rising class of people, if you will, not class as in better than others, but group of people all over the world who are saying, I want end not or I want a job that gives me a great career, a lot of money, but I also want, meaning I want to feel like I'm making a difference to something I care about. Consumers saying, I want a product that's exciting, that's at a price I care about. But you know what? I also want to feel that company and that product are leveraging good and certainly aren't doing harm, harm to others and investors saying, I want to make a buck on my money, but I also want to invest in something that I care about that's going to leverage a better world. And so basically what I said is, look, there are companies all over the world who are going to win in this Purpose Revolution. And also, we as consumers, employees and investors have a chance to shape the world that we want to live in by the choices we make. And just to put exclamation point on that, Gary, about 55% of people under 35 say they would gladly take a cut in pay for a bump in meaning at work. And the only factor that has grown in the last 18 years in terms of why people buy a product or buy from a company is it aligns with my values about the things that I care about. Every other factor has remained exactly the same. We don't talk about exactly the same. Twenty years ago, people, you know, price, customer service, quality, innovation, all the same. The only big factor that has changed. So I always, I tell companies all the time, the deepest connection you can have with your customers and your employees is that they share your values. Because if I Share my values with you and you give me all the other things, things I care about. You have a card you can play that will create a loyalty that nothing else can. And I give it in the book, great examples of that, of companies that are winning in the Revolution and how you as a leader can lead that kind of company.

Give us a company that's leading in the Purpose Revolution.

So, yeah, so I'm going to give two kind of very different examples, right? So one of the things you have to do in the Purpose Revolution, you have to understand you're not going to please everyone. Some of the most successful companies in the Purpose Revolution know who they're trying to win. So let's take two examples that are very different, right? Ben and Jerry's and Chick Fil A. So very different. Chick Fil A, a company founded and run by a very conservative Christian family in the South. They've been closed on Sunday, you know, for their entire history and continue to be today at an age where no one's closed on Sunday.

And they have a great chicken sandwich at a good value price. I've eaten it. I love it. But a lot of people are loyal to them as well because of the shared values that they have with their company, intensely loyal to that company. Now take Ben and Jerry's. Ben and Jerry's a very liberal company, a leader in supporting climate change efforts, organic farming, lesbian and gay rights, and they've measured it. Gary. About a third of their customers, what, two thirds of their customers buy from them because they love their ice cream. But a third of them buy from them primarily because they like the ice cream, but they love the shared values they have. And here's where it gets really interesting. They've studied the behavior of that one third who love them for their values. They never switch to other ice creams. No matter how much Haagen Dazs puts their ice cream on sale, they still buy Ben and Jerry's. Guess what? The two thirds who buy them because they love their ice cream do when Haagen Dazs goes on sale. They buy Haagen Dazs this week. So these are two very different companies, but who have been able to find a set of values that people really believe in and align with. And so these are two companies winning in the Purpose Revolution by winning really living their values. And then there's companies like 7th Generation, which is growth rate is like three times that of Procter and Gamble and Clorox, and basically by creating cleaning products that clean your house, clean your dishes, but also happen to be good for the environment and good for the future. And like I said, they have a growth rate 50% higher than the two big competitors who basically say, we'll clean your products, but, you know, the world might be a little worse because you bought them.

That's awesome. Yeah. You know, the way I articulate that, I totally agree with you. And when I work with companies, what I help them do is develop their belief statements. Right. We believe statements. When you articulate what it is you believe, if your client believes what you believe, then you're the right company for them. And if they don't, then you're not, which is okay as well.

Yeah. And then, and then obviously there are some values that are shared values. So I don't want to make it sound like the only way you can win in the purpose revolution is to make people angry. You know, there are other companies that, although I'd argue you probably have a better chance of winning if you make a few people angry because it means you're going to make some other people really, you know, aligned with you. But there certainly are other companies like 3M, for example, you Unilever, which makes, you know, cleaning products all over the world that have demonstrated that sustainability and doing good is good business. So you don't have to get people angry. But sometimes it helps and interesting. Gary, one of the things we talk about in the book is Gen Z, who's the generation after the millennials? They want companies to be bold and they of all the generations are saying what we want. Companies that take a stand, even if you make some people angry. So the youngest consumers and employees are especially impressed when companies don't tread a middle ground but say, look, we're going to stand for something and even if some people don't like it, that's who we are.

That's really interesting. Yeah. So let me ask you another question. How would you, and maybe you don't know the answer to this, but it's an interesting question for me. And in the 90s, what were parents saying about their 20 year olds versus today? What parents? And maybe not just parents, but let's just say the older generation saying about the younger generation in the 90s versus what the older generation is saying about the younger generations in the 2019s?

It's a good question and I don't think there is a simple answer. Here's a few things. I think that of course they've always said these young people are a little crazy and they'll learn when they get older. You know, when they get older, they'll think the way I think, and there's truth to that. But I think that here's what I hear a lot of parents say today. Boy, my kid is not willing to compromise. My kid has a set of values and they want to bring them to the workplace and to the world. They'll live in the basement for a few more years if it means that they've got to work at a soul draining job that they hate, right? They'd rather stay in the basement for another five years and save their money. So I think this idea of no compromise, of wanting to integrate work and life, I think parents, parents like say that, a confidence. I think a lot of parents say today, and I think it's true that Gary, compared with, you know, I'm 61, I don't know how old you are, but these kids today are very confident, right? Sometimes overconfident. But heck, I'd rather have somebody overconfident than underconfident every day because confident people will try all kinds of things, right? And so you hear that, you know, a lot. So I think those two things, not willing to compromise, confident. Of course, they also say, God, they're too addicted to social media and not always as good at the in person skills, not always as good at taking feedback, which is true. Because if you're confident, guess what? Sometimes you're not as good at taking feedback. Now, if I go back to the 1990s, it's funny, I'm trying to remember what people, people were saying then. But I think if you remember, that's when Gen X was kind of like just coming of age. And I think there was a real pragmatic streak, right? There was like, our kids, they just want to get a job, they want to get security. And we were kind of past the 70s when people were saying that the kids are crazy, they're growing their hair, they kind of want to do their own thing. It's not, by the way, an accident that the millennials were the kids of the hippie generation. So the baby boomers, you know, do your own thing, you know, love who you want to love, you know, live the life you want to live. Then we went into the corporate world and we kind of sold out for a long time. But we told our kids, guess what? We told our kids, do your own thing, live your own life. So it's not surprising in many ways that the millennials, to me, they just did what the baby boomers said we were going to do when we were 20 these kids just actually kind of went out and did it. We said we were going to do it. And then we kind of, you know, we wound up literally our parents life, which was more secure and treading the path they told us to tread. So I think it's kind of an irony in some ways.

You know, I saw this speaker recently.

He's a young.

He's a millennial and he talks about millennials and he puts his slide up on the screen. And it has these things that people today say about the young generation. You know, they're lazy, entitled, they don't want to work, they have no direction.

Right.

These four statements. And then he uncovers when those were actually said. And so, you know, they're entitled. Well, that was said in 1867 about the youth of that day. And you know, they don't have any direction. Well, that was said in the 1920s. And you know, it was funny because they're the same things that people say now about the youth is probably what they said about us when we were young.

Yeah, go.

And they're all there. Only about money or whatever it was.

Exactly. I have a Plato quote I used like that. I put it up there and people were. Yeah, that's how young people are. And that was Plato. Right. For goodness sake. But, but I think one of the things that can, that we have to be careful of is while it's true that that's why I began by saying there's some things young, older people have always said about younger people, but there are some new things. This thing around wanting to integrate work and life for work, not just to be about making a living. One of my favorite statistics I share in one of my books, gary, is in 1975, they asked Americans this question, is work mostly a way to make a living or is it a big part of your personal identity? 1975, 85% of Americans at the time, given that binary choice, even professionals, 85% said it's almost pretty much just a way to make a living. Now, you know, by 2005, 87% said mostly an important part of my identity. Only about 15%, 13 to 15% said it's mostly a way to make a living. Think about that shift. That's a real change. That's not just now. Why is that? Well, work has become more complex and interesting, but also it's a big shift in how we see we don't want work just to be about the paychecks, not enough. That's an actual shift in the way we think, not just an age shift because it cuts across generations. Wow.

Yeah, that's very interesting. So, John, what is your next question that you're going to answer with your next book or do you know yet?

I don't know yet. I don't know yet. That's the funny thing about books. I always say I have some friends, and I say this with respect, I won't name them, but I have friends who, like, will keep pumping out another book pretty much on the same subject. They wrote about just a little nuance or something. Nothing wrong with that. And by the way, you can write a lot more books doing that. I've never been that way. Right. I don't write another book until I have another question that's really burning for me. Right. And so that next question has not emerged yet, but I have no doubt, Gary, one day I'm a big be walking around and it's going to come to me, right? Because I'll be wondering, there must be, as you said, a better way to do what? And right now I'm out kind of preaching, if you will, about these better ways that I've already written about. But I know that next question will come. And that's one of the fun things for someone who, like you or me, who's interested in a better way. You never know when that next better way question will show up on your door. That be in the little middle of a conversation or out giving a talk or talking to your kid. You never know when the best next better way will show up. But I've learned it'll show up by me talking to people and being observant, which I think is my core skill. Observing and then observing the commonality. So I don't know what that next question will be, but I have little doubt it will show up. And then, then I'll have to write.

A book about, well, here's my final question to you. How the heck do you finish a book? Because I've been trying to finish my book, move forward faster for so long, and it's just a struggle for me to get to where it's good enough. When do you finally say, okay, this is good enough. I don't need better.

Great. So two pieces of advice. A famous writer, I forget who it was, used to have a sign in her office. It said, writing is the art of putting your ass on the seat. And it was her way of reminding herself that writing is like everything else. The only way you do it is to block out time for it. The second thing, and this is really to your Point about yourself. Years ago, I was having problems when I took my PhD of finishing my dissertation. I didn't know at the time that a good 50% of people go for their master's degree or their PhD and never finish it. Why? Because they can't finish their dissertation or their master's thesis. So I went to take this seminar with this guy named. I think it was Morris Tobar or something like that or. Anyway, and he made a whole living doing seminars for people who couldn't finish their dissertation or master's thesis. I'll tell you what he told me, and I think it's going to ring true for you. He said, the people who don't finish their dissertation, their PhD are almost always the smartest students, he said, because they keep thinking, I haven't asked the perfect question, I haven't found the perfect answer. He says, let me tell you a hint. You'll never find the perfect answer. You'll never find the perfect question. So you have to come to a point where this is good enough. So my guess, Gary, is you're one of those people that I can be who thinks it's gotta be even better, it's gotta be perfect. At some point you gotta let it go. And you know what? Here's the great thing, then you write another book and you improve on it. So that's my advice to you, is go back to. And by the way, I finished my dissertation within eight months of going to that guy's seminar. It was the most helpful thing I ever went to and helped me get my PhD and launch my career.

That is one of the big challenges for better way people is making a decision or finishing things. Because, you know, there's always a better choice. There's always a better. Whatever it is we're doing, there's always a better way to say this or do this, or maybe I haven't improved this enough. And it's definitely a challenge for me as well.

Yeah, like, Gary, you and I were joking in the little call we had a couple weeks ago just to talk about kind of coming on your podcast about people like us. That's even true in the restaurant. You know, there must be a better thing I could choose. But how can I choose a restaurant? There must be a better one on this street. So take that and put it into the book category. Now, guess what? That's a really good restaurant. That's a really good meal. Have that meal, then start walking down the street. You know what? You can have another meal in a couple of years when you Write your next book. So think of that image. Sooner or later, you got to have a meal. You can't just look for the perfect restaurant for, like, all night or you'll never have dinner.

Last night, I talked to this. This doctor that's a built 240 study clubs all over the world. I mean, he's one of the top, most powerful guys in dentistry. And he. His why is the same as ours, which is, you know, better way. And so I. I asked him, I said, do you have trouble, you know, figuring out what to order when you go to a restaurant? And he's like, why would you ask me that question? And I said, well, because that's one of the challenges with better way people. And he goes, that's one of my biggest challenges in life is trying to figure out what the heck am I going to order. He says, I can remember who I ate with. I can remember everything we talked about. I can remember everything they ordered, but I cannot figure out what I should order. He said it's the hardest decision of his life is to figure out how to order at a restaurant.

I'll tell you a funny story, Gary. My kids used to say to me, because here's what, like, really obsessive better way people do. What I'll do is I'll say, now, how do they cook that well? Could you do this? Could you do that? And I remember once one of my daughters saying to me, dad, can't you just once order the thing on the menu exactly the way they make it?

The way we roll, huh?

It's the way we roll. As one of the guys I interviewed for the the five secrets you must discover before you die, a really older wise man said. You know, he said, john, you can't fight city hall. You got to be who you are. And if you're who you are, you're going to be happy. Right? Sometimes you can't fight city hall. Yeah.

Well, John, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast. It's been great talking with you, getting to know you, comparing notes with another better way person. And once again, you. You've confirmed what we do for better ways. Yeah, we find a better way, and we share it, but we also have our struggles just like everybody else does. So thanks again for being here.

You're welcome. And I got to give a hat off to my mother. Died a couple years ago, was a big inspiration in my life. She used to say, you can't fight city hall, but you can spit on the steps. So, you know, at least you could do something.

That's great. Well, I look forward to following your career. And thanks again for being here.

Hey, thank you so much. And thanks for doing the good work you're doing. I love it.

Appreciate it.