117: Root Causes, Hormonal Health & The Politics of Medicine with Dr. Will Cole

Hello, hello, hello.

My guest today needs no introduction, but I'm going to give him one anyway. He is the functional medicine pioneer who put Keto Tarian on the map. He broke down the inflammation spectrum, reimagined fasting, and most recently took on the messy intersection of shame, stress and gut health. In gut feelings, he been called one of the top functional medicine doctors in America because he deserves to be called that. But beyond the accolades, he's someone who keeps pushing the conversation forward, challenging what we think we know, and making wellness more human. And that is exactly what he's going to do here today. Dr. Will Cole, welcome.

Hey, friend, thanks for having me on, man. I need you as my hype. Hype. Thank you.

I think you get plenty of hype. It's very well deserved.

Look, hey, patients during the day, telehealth patients, and my wife and kids keep me very humble. So to hear like a little bit of things. You made my day. Thank you.

Anytime you need that little boost. You are a huge, huge idol of mine. I mean, I, I am having a little bit of like, you know, star worship right now. You know, I have those people who I have just admired so much along my journey because my journey was kind of circuitous. I mean, I went to medical school and practiced as a surgeon for nine, nearly 20 years. So I didn't become enlightened or aware for a very long time. It took, you know, two decades into my career for me to be able to see things differently. And you and Hyman and Jeffrey Bland and Dr. Kellyanne Petrucci and, you know, there are a whole bunch of, of providers out there who really became my idols, opened me up to the possibility that not only were we not doing it exactly right, but that there, there is the option of really providing healthcare for people because that's not what we're doing currently.

Yeah, well, thank you so much for the kind words. I mean, I am cheering, I am a fan of yours. I'm cheering you on from the sidelines. I'm so, so proud of you. And you know what, your, your journey was circuitous. But God's using you in a way that he would never been able to use you if you didn't go through that journey like you are. You're able to see things that no one else has saw and are through that are able to be so much more impactful. Like no one else in the world is doing what you're doing. So, I mean, I'm such a fan and I'm glad our paths have finally crossed.

Me Too. Me too. There may be a reason why no one else in the world is doing what I'm doing because think it takes a fair degree of insanity but. But I'm doing it.

Just a perfect, perfect balance of professionalism and just like, hey, that, that drive to, to be the first one through the, through the, through the weeds, so to speak. So I love what you're doing. Yeah.

To, to. To climb that mountain. Right?

Yeah. To be a pioneer in the space that needs pioneering.

Yeah, for sure. So talk to me a little bit about your beginnings. How did you come to be in the, in the provider space?

So I grew up, my dad was really interested in health and wellness. It goes way, way, way back for me of just like seeing the world through the lens of root causes and health and food and nutrition and fitness. He was a bodybuilder in the 80s. I thought it was normal to have your dad like lubed up with baby oil in a purple Speedo with your mom at the 80s camcorder. Just like filming and getting the perfect poses and I. He owned a gold hysterical. Yeah. He had a health clinic so that we would go and eat very differently. We're talking about the 80s and 90s. We went to the farm to get the raw milk. I mean before raw milk was even like a thing now.

You mean you didn't grow up on snack wells?

No. Okay. No. Like the things that were available then, which we have, we're so blessed today. There's so many more options for people. You can go to Walmart and Aldi and Costco and Target and get things that are healthy. You had to go to the one crunchy granola health food store.

Yeah.

You didn't have a lot of choices.

No, exactly. So that kind of forged an early vision or awareness on okay, our food supply, human health, what that looked like optimizing how you feel. And I, My first job was in high school was at the finish line selling shoes. And I used my paycheck to go to the health food store and want to buy the latest superfood or herb that I'd read about. And I kind of made my already health conscious family look like the standard American because they kind of became obsessed about it. Like biohacking before biohacking was a thing.

But how did you even know? How did you learn that?

I. It was books. It was books. This was like pre Internet too. And then like the early days of the Internet, but it was really books. I remember one of my first books that I read with Patient Heal thyself this was in the early 2000s though. And I, one of, let's just say a game changing book book early on in my life as a young adult was reading Patient Heal Thyself from Jordan Rubin, who's now a dear friend of mine who's done amazing things, started Garden of Life and then Ancient Nutrition has a book out, new book out called the Biblio Diet. Anyway, so these like early people and Dr. Andrew Weil was another one. Like I read all his books as a teenager. What a weird kid was I reading Andrew Weil. But that was like he. Those were my heroes. And now, you know, these guys are still in their space, Dr. Weil, still doing amazing things. So I, yeah, this is kind of. I was a health nerd that then wanted to be trained in all the health sciences because of my passion.

So out of curiosity, I mean, if you read Andrew Weil's book, he, he went to my medical school. Like, why, why did you take a different path? How did you know that medical school was not going to provide you with what you needed or wanted?

It was really just looking at my interests. Being in health sciences. I wanted to go to Integrative Health School where. And I went to Southern California University of Health sciences, where there's MDs and DOs and DCs and naturopaths and nurse practitioners and acupuncturists, herbalists, all kind of learning their craft. So it really was just having a singular focus on, okay, this was my passion, human health. Human health was my passion. And I knew the system because of these guys who went through it and said, this system is not going to teach you that. I mean, if you're interested in pharmaceuticals, if you're interested in, in surgery, then go down this route. But other than surgery and pharmaceuticals are really not gonna teach you much, if at all about actually the root causes of why people have health issues in the first place. So it really wasn't very many options for me within healthcare to kind of get that niche of understanding these root causes.

Yeah, it's really amazing because, you know, I knew I wanted to help people. I knew that my mission, the, the way I decided to be a doctor was I just remember going to synagogue every year for Yom Kippur. And every year, invariably someone would faint or pass out or something like that. And I always had this feeling like it should be me helping them, only I was a little kid and didn't know what I was going to do. And then I lost my first cousin to metastatic breast cancer when I was 16 years old. She was my hero.

Right.

And she also happened to be a very, very famous singer songwriter. So she was a lot of people's hero, as it turns out. And I just knew then that, you know, that's. That was my mission. That's what I was meant to do. I was meant to help out and be the person that could rescue whoever fainted at synagogue. But I was also meant to forever change the conversation around breast cancer. What is your mission?

Wow. It is to. That's a. I mean, powerful story to hear where you came from in that sort of catalyst. For me, my mission is to give people an awareness, some an aha moment, to shift a paradigm in their life. Because getting to see people's aha moments, if you had to boil it down to all the things I love the most about what I get to do do, it's that light bulb moment that, that I get to see because it's a seed of transformation in their life. But it doesn't oftentimes stop, stop. There is that it's infectious in the best of ways. It's transformative for their circle of friends, their family, their children, if they have them, their parents. The amount of family and friend circles I get to see as telehealth patients from that one aha moment is so cool and to see so on a clinical telehealth level. I've been doing this for 16 years in telehealth. That's my biggest why. It's that Maya Angelou, Maya Angelou quote where she says, when you know better, you do better, hopefully. Right? A big asterisk of it's up to you, but hopefully. But I see that there's no looking back whenever they have this awareness. That's confirmation of their own intuition oftentimes because our patients typically know intuitively something's off here, but they're going to their conventional doctor with the best of intentions. Like you said, most doctors get into this because they want to help people, but the system is limited on what they can provide as far as answers for a lot of these, what the world would call mystery illnesses or autoimmune problem. Different autoimmune problems, different inflammatory issues, different, you know, hormonal problems and mental health issues. There's a lot of people that fall through the cracks with these different inflammatory problems. So to have to really hold space for them, and I don't mean that in a trite way. I mean, like in a deep, meaningful way. It's a sacred responsibility of saying, look, you, you know, your body and this is what's going on. These just, these are stone, proverbial stones that haven't been looked underneath. But when you know what you're up against, you can do something about it. So by looking and, and showing, really, it's that lab moment where I get to go over labs and kind of show these aha moments of. It's a release for many people, it's a release of, of knowing, of. Of confirmation they knew something was off. They weren't given any answers. But now we have answers and not just. We're not looking at problems. We are. This is a. Then a roadmap to a baseline to start bringing healing and optimization in their life. So that's my long winded way of saying what my why is and what my mission is.

Did you used to see people in person?

We always. I started the first functional medicine telehealth clinic. So we've always been in Telehealth. We always were a brick and mortar clinic where people would fly in or drive in on their first visit. But then we've always done telehealth visits after that since that was 2009 to 2020. That's how we did it. And then in 2020, obviously with the pandemic we already set up, so to speak, for everything was already telehealth. So if they wanted to come in on the first visit, they just didn't do that during the pandemic. And we haven't had a need to go back to that, I think, because there has been a global awareness, I think for the average person to know. Oh, tell. It's a thing. He's been doing this since 2009 anyways. So, yeah, we've always been brick and mortar in the sense of like, my closest head, like lead team is here, but we have many health coaches and health professionals in other states and parts of the world. So.

Do you miss seeing people in person?

That's a great question. Yeah. The short answer is yes. Yes. And where I get that fulfilled is speaking. That's different speaking engagements. And I just did an event in London a few weeks ago and I actually said that to a few of the doctors that were there. I was like, I'm in telehealth. So I'm in, like in a room all day long. And it's great. I love our patients. We can reach more people, but it is cool to see people in real life. Real life. So it's. Yeah, there's aspects of it that, you know, the people to. People think it's nice to See people in person too.

Yeah.

I'm actually with you on that in that I don't miss seeing people in person. I actually am pretty happy with telehealth. What I live for though are the public speaking engagements.

Yeah.

And that kind of interaction.

Me too. Because it's better use of our time, I think. Right. It's like there's only so many people you can meet in a day. It's really, it's.

Yeah.

It's endless. Right. But it's, it's limiting what you can do versus a room with a few thousand people. People or a few hundred people or whatever. A few dozen people. It's still a great way to connect. And what do we love to do? It's educate, empower, it's transform. And you can do a lot of that within a good session of public speaking.

Yeah, yeah. I just, I love the one to many platform and then the interactions that come from it.

Yeah. The interactions afterwards. I love it. I could hear everyone's health story afterwards. I always stay around afterwards to talk with them and hear them and then I can point them in the right direction. That's almost like mini consults after a talk. And I love it.

Yeah.

Free. It's free for them, but it's enjoyment. It's enjoyment for me because I can help them in, in a sort of micro way and point them in the right direction.

Yes.

With all, without all the lab ordering, which is like the bane of my existence.

Right. And the billing and the time. I know, it's like I'd rather just keep it effortless. Right.

Yeah. I really, I do hate the busy work of the medicine job. Right. Like, I love talking to people and I love the interactions, but I hate the busy work of being a doctor. It really drains your battery.

Yeah, I know. They, they don't teach us that side of it. Right. The business side of it all. And I, I do feel like a lot of us. I don't know if you're like this, but I'm definitely like this. Where I. Maybe I'm a. You can say I'm a control freak. I just, I don't feel like I am, but I just, I just have been doing this for so long that it's, it's kind of easier for me to do the things that I'm good at and, and I'm. I'm kind of head to the ground focused on that, but it's not always the best way to go about it. And I'm learning that now. It's like I'm Only, only one person. And I can't do it all. And what am I best at? And it's helping people. So I don't know. I'm figuring out that sort of business side of it all because I don't want to have to be in all the meetings. I don't want to have to manage it all. I haven't worked it out. The clinical side is amazing. The business side's kind of annoying.

The busy work is annoying, and it's really hard. And as you said, we get great training to be providers. There is no lack of training to be providers. But to be business people, to do marketing, to do all the administrative stuff of running a practice, we never get any kind of trained training in that.

Now just figure it, figure it out.

Management, the business plans, the, this, that, like it all factors into what you have to do as a provider in this industry. And we are not taught, we are not trained.

Yeah. Oh, and that's, I mean, and ultimately that is part of how we help people, right? Is, is people, I mean, can be helped if they know you're there. Right. So it is a tough thing. I don't know.

Yeah.

And it's tough because you hear these horror stories from colleagues of ours who have kind of given over aspects of their business to people that aren't in the health space. And it doesn't always work out because they aren't health people, they're business people. And the business people are, aren't always have the same heart set and mindset towards care and they could be out of alignment. So that's been part of my lack of leaning into that because I hear people get really, I mean, clinicians, doctors who want to help people really get screwed over for a lack of better words from this sort of business mindset.

I do think that there are people out there doing it really Well. I mean, J.J. virgin helped me to completely transform my practice. Because, you know, what we talked about in the beginning was the last thing you want to be is the best kept secret. Right? Like, if people don't know who you are, what you do, who you help and how you help them, you're not going to help anyone at all.

Right.

And in order to do all of that, you have to develop the business side of what you do. So, I mean, shout out to jj who really, really helped me to focus.

She's helped a lot of people out. She really has. Yeah, she really has empowered a lot of people.

So I want to ask, we know what you're good at, right? You're really good at helping people. Especially you are known in the mystery illness space, in the chronic illness space. So who, what has been your biggest challenge thus far in this space?

That's a really good question. I guess you know what it is. I'll give you an answer on like a business side of it all of just because that's part of helping people. And, and then I guess I'll answer it on a clinical level because I don't, I don't know the best way to answer this. But I would say on a clinical level it is cutting through the confusion sometimes of what people hear and because people can get the sort of paralysis of analysis and by the time many of them meet me, there's so many variables they're taking this sort of massive supplement graveyard worth of things out there that all are well intentioned. But like part of my job is really editing, sometimes curating and less is more and like what are the most impactful tools within Toolbox? But people can become very identified and dependent on these tools that make sense. They're not inherently bad, they're just maybe not a needle mover and we're, we're just spending money and we're not, we're working harder, not smarter. And I want people to work smarter and not harder on their health. So I, that's a, I would say clinical difficulty certainly in this age that we live in which we have this double edged sword of information which I'm obviously a massive advocate. I'm a fan of the democratization of health information, the decentralization, the expansion of our field, the awareness that it's given people to have literacy on foods and health care and all that stuff, good stuff. But there is a double edged sword to it. The double edged sword is okay now it's so much stuff that it's hard to have discernment. And they just keep being influenced on social media to buy more and more stuff and they don't necessarily, that's not, it's not actually the most smart, most impactful way to heal. So I'd say that's a difficult thing. And then the want to say hardest part that I would say is on a business side is wearing all the hats. I had to say like social media is one of those things that I have a love hate relationship with it actually because I love helping people, I love educating people. But it is a beast, an endless beast to constantly be putting stuff out on social media and you feel pressure to do so. So I have to consistently check myself to know like why Am I being. Doing this? I want to help people, and if it's anything other than that, I'm not going to do it anymore. So I think those are some problems. Not problems, but some obstacles and things to think about when you're in our space and our position.

I think you described it best when you called it a beast. It really is a beast. And every now and again, the beast can be tamed and you're. And you're happy to spend that. That couple of moments with the tame beast, and then the wild animal comes out again. And it's really. I struggle with that more than anything in the world. I. I do it because I think it's a necessary evil.

Right.

Like, you have to be out there, because where else are people going to hear your message? But the flip side of it is that it's. You're speaking to everyone, and not everyone agrees with you, and it just seems like the ones that disagree with you are the louder voices. By the way, my dogs picked right now, all four of them picked right now to come into my office and fight.

Hey, of course, look. That's one of the other benefits of being in telehealth. I've seen so many dogs. The dogs typically bark because they think someone's in our living room. Mom, where. Who are you talking to? And the cats will oftentimes walk in front of the camera when we're in a consult, too. It's. The cats want to be involved. They block the patient's face. It's the best.

So you know what? It. It's just a sign of the times, and it's real life and it's reality. And even if I record over. I have a recording studio in my. In my practice at Perfection Imaging. But invariably, like, my tech will come upstairs. Oh, are you recording or. You know, it's just. This is the world of interruptions. We have just made ourselves so utterly available that it's just the world of interruptions anymore.

Yeah, exactly. So, no, I hear you on social media. And, you know, people have social media teams and all that stuff. You know, I have some people that help me, of course, but it's still like us educating people at the end of the day. And you're right with our telehealth patients, they get it. They have ears to hear. They are. They. They want to be empowered. They want to be heard. They want to have this positive, edifying dialogue of inquisition and curiosity about their health, and they want to be empowered. Social media is not bad. Social media is. There is beautiful parts of it. I, I love aspects of it. I love reaching people that we otherwise wouldn't be able to reach and, and educate them, empower them and have diversity of thought on social media with different viewpoints. I love that. But you're right, it's the keyboard warrior. The way the algorithm works, it is like this amplified, like the anonymity that people have to say things they would never say to your face. It is. I have to practice what I teach and have like, I call it like Jomo having a bad case of the joy of missing out because in this endless FOMO inducing, scrolling, doom scrolling on social media, it's not good for my mental health. After a whole day of helping people, hearing these people that are committed to misunderstanding what we're trying to do and then my mind is back to like, I'm this eternal optimist of like, well, no, if they just understood I can. No, it's a, it's an exercise in futility to try to try to.

Like, you cannot teach blind to see.

No. And then like, I don't know of any significant problem has been solved in the comment section on Instagram or TikTok. I thought I could, but I can't. So I have to just give it up to God and be like, you know what? I did the best I could. I know my intentions and there's going to be people that just are committed to misunderstanding. That's a tough lesson for me because it's not my real world, that's just the social media world.

Yeah. But it is very hard because, I mean, I know for me, because I'm, I'm standing on this divisive mountain, right? 50 years of mammographic screening and here I am standing at the top of that mountain saying, we're doing it wrong, not helping anyone.

I can't imagine what you put up with on a daily basis.

It's horrible. It's horrible. But it's okay. First of all, I know it's okay because I'm on the right side of history. Second of all, I know it's okay because this is true, truly my mission in life. And God gave it to me. So it's not, it's not a question of like me giving up. I could never give up. And he made me what I am for a reason. So I have this voice and I have this faith and I have this fortitude and I have all of that so that I can endure the horrible things that people say to me and about me on social media.

Yeah, it is.

We're behind my back.

I think it's 100%. I mean even people that are. Yeah. That are in this, in the health, larger medicine space, they'll say it behind your back. Yeah, you're right. It is true. But I think it's good for people you like for us to talk this out in front of all these people. But I think it's good because we're in our own silos helping people and we don't necessarily get to talk like this very often. I was in a group text with a few other people in our space. He said the same thing with another doctor. He's like, we need to have more conversations like this because it can be weary, it can really grow even the most passionate of us a little weary because we're still humans and we are in this just to help people. But it's the closer you are to a system that is used to being done a certain way, the more they do protest too much. And I can't imagine it because you're kind of in a specific industry around cancer that is very tightly held. The gatekeepers are very well known on who has the orthodoxy around that industry.

Yeah, for sure. So while we're on the topic, I'm curious, what do you think about mammograms?

Well, that's tough, right? I, I'm a significant. Pragmatically, I think it's better to catch something earlier versus not to be proactive and not reactive. So someone has access only to that. And based on their age or health history, their family health history. My typical advice to telehealth patients is the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. If that's all you have access to. But if, I mean you're my number one top referral. So I'm constantly sending people to your clinic. So that's my preference. But I'd rather have someone have some imaging versus none. So that's kind of my take on it. And I wish there was more Dr. Simmons around the country.

I do think that that is most well intentioned providers take on it. And so my, my response to that will be, but everyone can get the ARIA test. Everyone can have that ARIA tears test. And if that test is negative, then you don't need imaging. Like if you're doing physical examination and you have a negative ARIA test and you don't feel anything on physical examination, you don't have breast cancer.

Yeah, right. Yeah, that's a great point. And these other looking at circulating tumor cells and these other more and more tests we have access to to catch these things early and I'm happy about them. I'm happy about the expansion of diagnostics. So we have alternatives for people. It's a great time to be alive.

Yeah. And I, I know what my mission is. I know that I'm opening 50 of these imaging centers that feature QT in the next five years. So I know that access will no longer be an issue for people. And, but in the meantime, it's not as if I'm out there saying don't screen.

Yeah.

I'm just saying screen safely because we have safe screening options now and they don't involve getting a mammogram. Right. And today the only benefit to getting a mammogram is that it's free and my screening options are not with the exception of self breast examination. Right.

Yeah.

But when you look at, statistically when you look at the cancers that are discovered on mammogram, as compared to the cancers that are discovered on physical examination, we're talking about a 5 millimeter difference, which is nothing in the scheme of things. So I can't justify screening mammogram because I know that there are safe and effective alternatives that are also early diagnosis and on, on the part of the ARIA test that is not only early diagnosis, but it's even earlier than that. It's prevention because it's not actually screening for breast cancer. It's screening for the inflammatory precursors to breast cancer. So you can use that to prevent a diagnosis, which I think is amazing and earth shattering and transformative.

So 100 agree with you. I think those are like two different conversations that I have. Right. I mean I have the conversations with our telehealth patients who, they can get the ARIA lab, they can get the lab, the circulating tumor cells, they can get these inflammatory tests and genetic tests for us to look at all these variables or get access to your clinic. I'm just thinking of the average person that's out there from, you know, if they don't, if they're not in functional medicine, they're not willing to pay. It's like, so are you. Would you say if someone is like, no, you know, you can lead a horse to water but can't get it to drink. They're not willing to invest in their health, but they have the free mammogram. If you're up to that sort of scenario, what would be your, your take for that person?

So that person isn't necessarily the person that is going to hear anything that I have to say.

Totally.

Right. And so that's not really who I'm talking to. Yeah, nor, yeah, that person is perfectly happy in the system and will remain in that system until they get some significant disease. And that may wake them up to the downfalls of the system. Or, or maybe not. I mean, there are plenty of people who just walk through, like sheep or cows or whatever, blindly walks through life and, and they won't ever question. And that's okay, because I can't help everyone. You can't help everyone. And we want to spend our time with the people that we know are going to be successful. And those people are the people that are awake now. As it turns out, 35% of the screening population will not get a mammogram for whatever the reason. They either don't believe in them or they don't want to be radiated or, you know, for whatever the reason, 35% of the screening population is not screening. And those are the people that I'm talking to. Those are my people. Those are the people that want to hear from me. And those are the people that know that I have the solution and that, that includes people who, you know, would rather not pay for it. But they, they believe so strongly in not subjecting themselves to radiation in the fact that the system is very much designed to get you in one way or another. Right. It's why, you know that book by Gilbert Welch over diagnosed, did you read that one?

Yes. Yeah.

So, you know, we have lowered the entry point for almost every disease that we have a financially beneficial solution to. I'm putting solution in quotes. Okay. So we've, we, we used to not treat people for elevated cholesterol until it was over 300, and then it was 260, and then it was 220. Now it's 200. Right. What are we treating? All we're doing is lowering cholesterol. We know that lowering cholesterol doesn't make anyone healthier, just lowers cholesterol. So we're just treating a lab.

Right.

And the, the number to treat for hypertension, you know, the average blood pressure in the 1970s was 140 over 90.

Right.

Now we're saying it has to be 120 over 70. Well, that's probably not an adequate blood pressure in the elderly population.

Right.

And when you take those people that suddenly hit the cutoff for medicating and you give them beta blockers or anti hypertensives, now these people have sinkable episodes and hypotensive issues. So we've just lowered the bar in order to make more money. But we're not helping people. We're not preventing cardiac disease. We're not, you know, thyroid cancer is, is, falls under that as well. And you know, that's the disease that I decided not to treat for me. Prostate cancer, breast cancer. We've just lowered the threshold for who we give the sign to. Right, here's your sign. Go stand in line to get your treatment.

Yeah.

And. But we haven't helped people.

We haven't.

Yeah.

We haven't decreased morbidity.

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Back to our show. I mean, that's the wild thing. For me, it'd be one thing. I mean, the United States spends more on healthcare than any industrialized nation. Yeah. Okay. We're I think 70% of the world's pharmaceutical profits. Yet we, despite all this money and spending and medicating, we have the shortest lifespan and the most chronic disease of all industrialized nations. That's wild. It'd be one thing to spend all this money and medication if it produced better outcomes. Right. But it's actually the opposite. It's like the more money we're spending is the worst outcome. So that's what people. I always find it interesting when we Talk about, they talk about budget cuts or the medical industrial complexes and getting the funding that they once got. I'm sorry, anybody that owns a business would know this. It's like spending more money doesn't necessarily bring better outcome. Just look at the United States government. It's about getting back smarter and not harder. It's an entire system paradigm shift that we need not keep spending the money over and over again expecting different results.

I know, but, but that's exactly what's happening. And yet no one is saying, hey, we don't have better outcomes. Why are we spending more money? Why are we doing things the way that we're doing them if they don't work?

Right.

But if you're someone like me and says, why are we spending $37.5 million a year? I'm sorry, why are we doing 37.5 million mammograms every year if mammograms are not saving lives? And yet I'm met with all of this objection. Well, a mammogram saved my life. No, actually it didn't. A mammogram gave you a diagnosis, but it didn't save your life. And we're over diagnosing breast cancer by 20 to 30% because we're using mammograms. Yeah, right. But no one's asking the questions.

No, it's not. So it is, is a strange, the only analogy that I have when we talk about these sort of the sick care system and the way that we do health, you know, disease management in the United States, it's like the modern, it's like a modern secular religion in the, in the sense of like, where there's like this zealot fervor to it, where it's this blind allegiance, it's blind faith. You can't question it. It's actually the most anti science thing what, what they, what is labeled as science. Like it, it is very much science to question. And, and the science is never settled. Right. These are things that are said about religions, not by health care. So I, I, it, that's the type of weaponization I think of, of health information. What we're up against is an interesting beast. You, the things you and I get to see on a daily basis of these.

Yeah.

Sort of these. Yeah. Things hurled out.

I agree with you. It's, it's more like, like religious zealotry than anything else. That's exactly what it is. And you know, if you question it, you, you need your head examined.

Right.

So instead of coming at it with fact and with honesty and openness, they just become belligerent.

Yeah, they become more entrenched in it. Yeah, it is. And it's also an interesting other layer to this is like there's always been pushback with things that you and I have done or questions we're posing or how we're helping people. There's an orthodox way to get people healthy, apparently. I always find it interesting too. It's like our patients, their labs are improving, their lives are improving. Like, like what? Who, how nefarious do you have to be to be against someone's inflammation levels? Lower their gut health improvement, all the cardio, metabolic, metabolic. Like this is not negative. This should not be controversial. I think for, for those that spin it as controversial, someone getting healthy, I think it says more about them than anything else. And how far have we fallen as a culture that what we do is considered fringe or radical or, you know, it is a sign of the time.

Selling snake oil. I get accused of being a snake oil salesman.

Really?

What am I selling that snake oil? I'm telling you, to eat a whole food plant based, low glycemic diet. Yeah, that sounds like snake oil to me. Or prioritize sleep, avoid toxins, move your body, lift weights, avoid alcohol, manage stress, live in a connected, purpose driven way. How is that snake oil?

Well, it's the heresy of heresies to a culture that profits on it's feeding its own health problems. That's really what it is. It's like. And at the end of the day I tell myself, well, snake oil is probably high in omega 3 fatty acids, so it can't be that bad.

That's an excellent point. So speaking of questioning the science, there's a whole lot of talk lately about acetaminophen. What do you think?

Let's talk about acetaminophen. What's the, the, what's the tea on it? So I thought this was pretty basic health advice. You know, I saw a tweet from Tylenol in 2017. It was, they were responding to someone complaining about Tylenol on Twitter as they have to field this stuff too as a company. And they say, well, Tylenol's words were, well, we actually don't recommend any of our products during pregnancy. And that was their line publicly on X on Twitter at the time to one of their customers. I think that this was most people's advice in the health space that was to use it conservatively, sparingly. And then there was obviously a massive sect of sort of the average advice that like this was the go to pain reliever for pregnant women. But it certainly was I think not novel information. What HHS came out and said, I mean none of these, most of these studies are not new. I mean, yes, the Mount Sinai study and looking at the Harvard meta analysis of all of those pregnant pregnancies I think shed further light on it. But I think taking a cautionary approach to something like acetaminophen for pregnant women and kids is, is a good thing. I think that it's, it's, it's something that we've never had an HHS that was really willing to say the quiet parts out loud, the things that are being researched. Again, most of the stuff is if you look on PubMed like there are better studies than others. But all of these things that are being discussed now in hhs, it's not new science, most of it, it's just inconvenient science to industries. And what we call science, or what the average American calls science is largely filtered, cherry picked, the safe science spoken by approved sanctioned voices. So then when you have, and that's what everyone calls science, but then when you look at all science and from a diverse viewpoint of talking about it, that's the heresy of heresies and that's what's happening right now. So I think it's fine to have a cautionary approach. I think sometimes the context, the nuance can be lost. I didn't love everything specifically. I didn't love when the president kind of went off script. As not a healthcare professional, I think sometimes it muddies the waters and can leave a lot of average Americans confused on what the heck we're supposed to do. So I think that if anything, the critique that I have around that recent press conference is the messaging more than anything else, knowing that the press is going to twist and distort anything they say anyways and take it out of context anyways. They have to be above reproach from a communication standpoint and say, look, this is, this is what we're going to say and this is what the science says, this is the context. And then here all the alternatives for people because it kind of left a lot of people reeling. And look, we're in healthcare so we can kind of read between the lines, hear the context, hear sort of the sentiment, understand that most people aren't thinking like us when they're not consuming that information in the way that we are. And they're also hearing it through a distorted lens of the mainstream media, which is hell bent on twisting and misconstruing things that Secretary Kennedy and Dr. Macri and Bhattacharya say. So that's kind of my take on the whole controversy of it all.

Yeah. And it is controversial and I think that it is going to ask us to examine something that has been extremely controversial for many, many years. I don't know that I want to talk about vaccines so much, except that this whole Tylenol thing, I mean, I think that we're going to have to deal with the. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Because so many children who are getting vaccines are given Tylenol in order to mitigate the pain of the vaccine. So what's the issue?

Right, Absolutely. And those studies deal with that. Absolutely. And there's studies like the. I think there was a thousand pregnancies on the Mount Sinai study and like 300,000 pregnancies on the, on the Harvard analysis.

Meta analysis.

Yeah, meta analysis is that you causation doesn't necessarily equate with correlation. Just because it's correlated doesn't mean it's a causation. And we can't suss out that n of one cause fully off of those reports. Like you said, the chicken or the egg, was it the fever or the acid of Medifib? You can't. And the self reported, the delay of like the frailties. The limitations of those studies are legitimate. And I, it's ridiculous to say, and I think Secretary Kennedy did convey this, that they're not saying this is the causation of it. This is just implicated. This is something to look at. This is a piece of the puzzle which I'm happy that we finally have an HHS that's willing to listen to moms, that's willing to listen to women about them knowing their bodies. There's so much medical gaslighting around these topics. And their kids, they know their kids. And I think that, you know, time will tell I think as more and more of these guidelines play out. But yeah, whether it's acetaminophen or it's implicated in sort of the larger cocktail of things that we're giving each other. I don't think it's one thing. It's a perfect storm of variables. But at least we're having these conversations. At least we're looking at the science and saying what do we make of this science?

And I think that the most important thing is that we have to have the conversations. We can't say that, no, it's been proven that this is safe and no, it's been proven that that is safe because it's simply not true. And we need to be able to go out there and be vulnerable and have the conversations and really examine these things for whether or not they're safe because we all need to know. And the only way we're going to know is if people are honest about it.

Right. And the only way you can do that is better science, better science, more science. And not just, not just any old science science or that presupposition science without conflict of interest and more robust debate and conversations without silencing and canceling people. I think, how are you going to have that? It makes everything better in democracy, a free society. And look, the reality is, and maybe I'd love to get your take on this and like what the other side, whatever that is, when you talk about the naysayers of anything in health and functional medicine and alternative medicine, different types of out of the box medicine, let's just say that, like, there's no denying the epidemic rise of autoimmune conditions and cancer and heart disease and fertility issues. No one's denying it. Sometimes they'll want to spin it and say, well, it's better awareness and better diagnostics. Even if you take better awareness and better diagnostics and is a piece of the puzzle for some of those issues, maybe, but it's certainly not the entirety. It doesn't take. It just doesn't take a randomized control trial. It takes just common sense of looking out in the world around you and saying, look, we are thicker than ever. That's not the controversial thing. The controversial thing is just don't dare ask why. And that's what gets me. Is that like, okay, they're protesting too much. You're looking at these root causes, whether it be this, that factor or that factor, a combination of these factors. Anytime any of the factors are talked about, there's so much pushback. Why? Because are we the only ones that even want to ask the question why? I always found that to be interesting because they're actually not providing any alternative narratives. They just don't ask the question.

Well, they don't ask the question because they don't know the answer.

Right.

That's the first uncomfortable inconvenient truth.

Right.

As a breast cancer surgeon, which I had someone say today on Instagram that the reason that I became a breast surgeon is because I was a failed general surgeon. Which was really interesting because the way that you become a breast surgeon is that you're a successful general surgeon and then you go do fellowship training in breast disease. But be that as it may, let them have it. Yeah, yeah, whatever.

Committed to misunderstanding.

As.

Part of my training, I was actually literally taught the response to the question, why did I get breast cancer? I was literally taught that we are to say that it is a multifactorial disease, which I don't deny that. Right. There's no one thing that is the thing that's going to give you breast cancer. However, we were also taught that there is nothing that you can do to prevent it and nothing that you can do to reverse it. And, and if you are unlucky enough to develop breast cancer, because we considered it a condition of lack of luck, if you are unlucky enough to get breast cancer, the only solution is surgery, which, the surgery that I was trained to do always included a lymph node removal of some sort, either a sentinel lymph node biopsy or an axillary lymph node disease section. So surgery, radiation, chemotherapy if it was appropriate, and anti hormonal drugs, extended hormone deprivation. And we were not taught anything else. In fact, we were taught that there is nothing else. And anything else that was suggested was, was quackery. And I remember towards the end of my time as a surgical oncologist, I had this woman come in and she really wanted me to operate on her and she really did not want her lymph nodes touched. And I was the fourth surgeon she went to because the first three wouldn't operate on her because she wouldn't have her lymph node sampled. And I pushed her too, but I pushed her in saying, tell me why you don't want your lymph node sampled. What do you believe that means? What are the implications? And I really heard her when she answered me. Now fast forward, you know, let's say it was 10 years ago, although it was probably more. Well, now there's papers upon papers arguing to not do lymph node removal because they have no impact on survival, which I will argue is the only thing that matters.

Yeah.

And that you need to take it on a case to case basis and determine does that person really need a lymph node sampling and what are the benefits to that person and is it going to change treatment? Because if it's not going to change treatment, what are you doing other than adding on a procedure? But this is the thing. Doctors are not trained to answer the why question. So they don't want it asked. They feel very, very uncomfortable when they don't know the answers. And when they say when they don't know the Answer. They universally say no. I see that all the time in my practice.

Yeah. Yeah. And on the flip side, what I get to see, you're absolutely right. And the flip side, what I've seen over the years is that when patients of hours do get better, their labs are improving. There's like, the labs aren't lying, they are just improving health. Their doctor, who's most of the time means well, doesn't have the answers, but means well, they're managing their case as their PC peer specialist. They say almost verbatim, they say the same thing to their patient. They say, whatever you're doing, keep on doing it.

Keep doing it.

Yeah, because they don't know what it is. Yeah, right. They don't know what it is, but it's working and it doesn't involve pharmaceuticals. So it's like I. Yeah, it is, you're right. It is like an education gap more than anything else on an individual doctor standpoint. And it's education gap because the system's not set up in a way that actually rewarding health, it's rewarding disease management.

Yeah.

So I want to get back to something that you said before because you talked about this explosion of autoimmune disease and I'm. I'm not going to argue with you. What do you think it is? What do you think this explosion of autoimmune disease is attributable to? And I. And it's, it's probably not one thing.

It's not. But I would say, in my opinion.

I'm so curious as to yours.

Yeah. I would say it's a confluence of factors and the bigger pieces of the puzzle vary from person to person. But I look at it through the lens of. It's like a semi ancestral health perspective. When you look at the researchers looking at. The majority of our genetics haven't changed in 10,000 years. Our world has changed very dramatically in a finite period of time. When you're putting that into context with human history, with the totality of human history, and then on top of that, the gut microbiome and only trillions of bacteria. So what the researchers refer to as this epigenetic genetic mismatch, this chasm, this evolutionary mismatch between our biochemistry, our microbiomes, biochemistry, and the world around us, they're living in a brave new world. I think that chasm, that mismatch is really at the heart of it. So the biggest pieces of the puzzle that I think are, are the foods we're eating or the foods we're not eating. And really looking at how the food is grown, which is a larger environmental conversation of our soil microbiome and things like herbicides and pesticides and forever chemicals and microplastics, but also because of the destruction of the soil microbiome, the nutrient density of the food. And then even of course, beyond just whole foods and nutrient density, which is lacking the dense raw materials that our body needs to be its best version of itself, we're also focused so much as a culture on ultra processed foods, these franken foods that our body does not recognize on a cellular level. But then it's more than that, it's environmental toxins beyond food. It's biotoxins that have been around for eons, but things like bacteria, viruses and mold, I think they've never been healthy for the human body, but now they're stressing an already stressed out immune system because it's exposed to all these man made toxins of modernity and the inflammatory foods that we're consuming. And then we can't ignore things like chronic stress and unresolved trauma, these mental, emotional, spiritual facets that again been around since the dawn of time, but they're stressing and already stressed out lack, we lack resilience in our modern world. So something's got to give and things like stress and trauma can set it over the edge. So I would say those are the biggest pieces of the puzzle. And then I would add to that sort of environmental man made toxin EMFs is something that I think is some people are more sensitive to the than others. If it was just EMFs, maybe it wouldn't be that big of a deal. But it's this entourage effect of a lot of different variables that are triggering genetic predispositions that have lied dormant for thousands of years, but are being awoken like never before in human history because of this, this genetic epigenetic mismatch. So that's what I would say the research shows are the variables to look at. And I see those reflected on labs and I see when those labs improve, their health improves. So that's the best, the best answer I have for you at this time.

Okay, so I think that there's another element that is contributing to our loss of tolerance. And with the Women's Health Initiative there was a precipitous drop in usage of hormone replacement. Justifiably so. I mean everyone makes the best decision with the information that they have at the time. And the information at the time was that hormones are harmful and not helpful and you shouldn't take them however, we know that that study wasn't true. And I have a fairly uncommon and unpopular belief about breast cancer and that it is not a disease of hormone excess. In fact, it's a disease of hormone deficiency. And anyone who works in this space and measures female hormones knows that most women who get breast cancer do not have a lot of estrogen. No, in fact, almost no estrogen, no progesterone. And their bodies are clamoring for hormones because they are so shifted from what is physiologically well, because they lack hormones. And I think that that is playing a bigger role in the environmental intolerance picture and the lack of flexibility and resilience that leads to autoimmune disease.

Yeah, well, I think certainly that's a point. I think the subjugation, the red tape, the fear mongering around appropriate hormone replacement therapy, bioidentical certainly is certainly a part of it. And you're absolutely right. The people that I'm talking to, when we're meeting them, their hormones, for the most part, there's exceptions to this are really low in the vast majority of it. But it makes sense because there's a larger dysregulation of the neuroaminoendocrine axis like this intersection between the nervous system, that fight or flight freeze, fawn response, that sympathetic tone is overactive, that parasympathetic, that resting, digesting, that grounded gut brain axis aspect of the nervous system is weak. They have poor vagal tone. Their vagus nerve isn't where we want it to be. So neuroimmuno, like the chronic inflammatory inflammation is a product of their immune system. So they're state of high inflammation. And the neuroimmuno endocrine, the endocrine part of it, of course, the endocrine is the downstream effect of that. It's in the gutter for most people. So this sort of larger context of why we're having such a hormonal problem in the first place is something that I'm interested in and looking at these environmental components and this stress and trauma component of why the body is stuck in this hypervigilant state. But then you're right, while you're healing, there's a deficiency of hormones. Like there is a beautiful place for hormone replacement therapy to get the body in a state of, of healing and nourishment. Yeah. So I think it's a both and not either or approach or like dealing with these root causes, but then downstream having appropriate judicious use of hrt.

Yes, without question. And listen, I don't think that HRT is the be all end. All right? Like, I think it is the bow on top of the box. And the box is filled with root cause analysis and, and all of those foundational things that we know help people to heal.

Right.

And get people healthy and keep people healthy. Right. You can't take HRT and live a toxic life and not exercise and drink alcohol and eat processed food. I mean, it just doesn't work the same way. You can't supplement your way, diet and a bad lifestyle. Right. You can't hormone your way out of a bad diet and a bad lifestyle. But it can be the difference. For those that are doing the things and can't get the results that they want, it's because they're wildly hormone deficient and those people, all the broccoli in the world is not going to help them.

No, you're absolutely right. Even, even the adaptogens, like there's a time and place. There's a time and place for adaptogens and herbs and, you know, natural compounds, and there's a time and place for great judicious use of hormone replacement therapy. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's. It's one of the people feel like they're. They have to pick one camp or the other. Right. It's like the HRT camp or three camps. There's the HRT camp, there's a conventional medicine camp that kind of ignores a lot of comprehensive hormones. And then there's like the quote unquote natural camp that like says, no, I'm just going to take wild yam and gong quai and that's going to be it. No, it's oftentimes the synergy of all three that needs to be collaborative when and if it's needed.

Yeah. And I'm not against using adaptogens, but I think adaptogens on top of the right diet and the right lifestyle, I think that they can lessen your were replacing.

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

But they don't replace it and they don't eliminate it 100%.

I couldn't have said it better.

So you. I'm gonna get back to politics without being political. But you're very much involved in the MAGA movement and so, you know, I applaud you for those efforts. Tell me why you think, what you hope to come out of that movement and do you have any concerns?

Yeah, so I would definitely say that I'm involved with a lot of the ideas within the Maha movement, the larger MAGA movement, like politics isn't My thing, right? Health is my thing. But, you know, never before in human history would I see a diverse coalition of people in our space, in our health space that I either know directly or know indirectly. You know, colleagues of, you know, mine, friends of my colleagues of mine that are finally at the helm of trying to make some good health initiatives. But it involves politics, which is so dirty and corrupt and. Yeah, I mean, so I, and I.

I apologize, I meant to say that you're involved in the Maha movement, not the Maga movement. So I, I misspoke and I apologize for saying that because I know that you're not political and that you're in there for health. And it actually drives me a little crazy when people assume that if you support one, you automatically support the other, because I try to not be political on purpose.

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It's half the country that's not going to see eye to eye. It's like, I don't want to have division. I think health is a human issue and we're not going to agree on everything. And it's, to me, it's like, these are big, deep, complex topics, right? And I think that the solution is going to be both and not either. Or here too. You know, I hear the people that are not fans of what Maha is doing and they're talking about things like, we have to talk about poverty, we have to talk about the inequity, we have to talk about food deserts. I agree, I agree with you. And, but I also can take the wins where we can get them and I also can look at, if nothing else, if nothing else beyond. And let me just say this, I, because I am close enough to this group of people that are trying to do some things within hhs, they want to do so much more. There's so much pushback that no one even knows about. There's so much red tape, there's so much thwarting of efforts to try to do good things. So just keep that in mind and then press is never going to cover that. The second thing is, if nothing else, let's remove politics from it entirely. Let's remove HHS and what you think is important that they should be doing or you love what they're doing. Let's take that as completely irrelevant for this scenario. What I have seen and I have talked to big massive corporations like Walmart and other, other companies that are not in the health space that they are telling, they have told me their customers are asking for ingredients. Their, their customers, the Walmart customer is becoming label literate. That's a good thing because I think going back to what drives me and drives you is like a lot of it's education and empower empowerment and looking at ultra processed foods. I think most of us should get behind like you have to be pretty dark and twisted to make an act like be an advocate for ultra processed foods. Even the most staunch person that hates Trump with vigor, that wants to like, you know, just the opposite of whatever, anything that's associated with him. I think most people can say, yeah, he's talking about ultra processed foods. And I'm not going to be reflexively opposite than that. I'm going to just say, yeah, let's celebrate the wins where we can get them and come behind something that should be universal. Let's start and start slowly cleaning up the American food supply. I think the increased awareness is a good thing and people can be negative about it and say, well it's, it's, you know, it's peppered with what they would call misinformation or it's people that throw that word misinformation around. I just, they have no credibility in mind because there's different, there's diversity of thought and sometimes people see things differently. But a lot of the things that were called misinformation over the past five years are now substantiated. So let's not be so quick to silence people and shame people for having a different viewpoint because it may just be different than what you know and understand and we're not going to agree on everything. And I think that's the other thing here too is that let's just come together on what we can have in common with. And we should all want to give our kids a healthier start at life. We should all want to improve our food supply. These should not be radical ideas. And the fact that they're being politically spun and weaponized and made something positive, made so negative is really, again, back to my earlier statement of such a testament to how corrupt the system is that they're protesting too much about some basic human things.

Yeah, it astounds me. And my biggest concern is that he is a 11 term president at this point. And I'm afraid that we're going to go back to the way things were after his term, which is terrible.

Yeah, right.

Especially previous health leaders were not healthy.

No. Oh yeah, the opposite of it. I mean, and that's into it. Like the medical, the people that are just constantly being smug, elitist contrarians about MAHA. The medical industrial complex is what, over 100 years old? @ what point were they going to do something about it? At what point were they going to really make any significant headway? Because really, look, it's been an abysmal failure and doing the same thing repeatedly again and expecting a different result is insanity. So to be honest with you, like, even if you're disagreeing with the things that you think the HHS should be doing, at least they're trying. The people up in the peanut gallery, they're keyboard warriors in social media. What have they ever done to improve people's health? 99.9% of the people complaining on social media have done nothing to improve people's health. At least they're trying.

Yeah, that's an excellent point. And I'm just always astounded by the naysayers and, you know, ridiculous, insane comments like how can you trust anything he says? He's weird or he's this or he's that. Well, think about what he's saying. I mean, what is it? I, I had some, I, I remember I was listening to someone on Fox saying, well, don't change my Swedish fish recipe. I want the red dye. Really? You want that? That's your argument? You want the red dye that? Somehow putting beet juice instead of the red dye number whatever 40 is going to change your life. And it's Just so crazy. Like the hill that people are willing to even stand on.

I know.

Die on.

I know. It's so true. It's. I never knew there was so many, like sudden superfans for artificial food dyes and pesticides and seed oils. And they, they weren't. They were overnight fans because opposite. And that's the thing. It's like they're just the weaponization of something that should just be bipartisan. And a human thing, I think is crazy. Especially when you look at the progressive left who's always been better at being crunchy, being the, like the cliched, crunchy alternative thinker. You go to the health food store, you're in Malibu. All the cliches, cliches for a reason. And now suddenly they just have, not all of them, but a lot of them have just started raging for the machine. And like, they're like, just like, they love Big Pharma and Big Food so much. It is the great inversion. Secretary Kennedy called it the great realignment because it has caused people to really shift. And tribalism above logic is just so deeply true. And look, a lot of these measures, I was celebrating wins on both sides when Cory Booker on the Democrat side, when Bernie Sanders on the Democrat side talked about transparency and labels, I was cheering them just as much here because it's not about the politics. It's about at least guys or women or whoever, humans on both sides of the aisle. If you're going to move the needle in our direction of wanting health to be democratized so it's not just for the elite people that shop at Erewhon and the Bougie health food stores around the United States. If you can start improving the SNAP food food assistance program, if you can start reforming the schools, the food that they're serving in public schools, if you start reforming health information on social media so people can start voting with their dollars for better for you options, that's a good thing no matter where it comes from. And if it's not a good thing, if you're going to just delegitimize it and shame or poke holes or be a contrarian, if it comes from someone you don't agree with, that is a sad state of affairs. That means you care more about your own ego and your own tribe versus everybody. And that's just not where I'm at and that's not where most of us are at within the Maha movement. We come one, come all, and I think there's room enough for everybody to just say, where can we find Common ground to make some positive wins in our life.

Do you think that that is our biggest challenge? What do you, what do you think our biggest challenges. Challenges right now in medicine?

I think the biggest. There's probably so many, but I think one of the biggest challenges, the amount of pushback. I really think that these things should have more bipartisan support because I know people like Cory Booker and Bernie Sanders and I know what they've tried to do over the years. Why can't they come behind? Because it's politically not advantageous for them that even if these guys wanted to be collaborative, it's political suicide to work with people when you dehumanize the other side as fascists and Nazis and, and horrible murderers. Yeah, those politicians probably aren't going to work with the other side because the media and social media and special interests have divided us so much that they've, they've eliminated politicians. The ability for the Democrats to work together with the Republicans because they want to be voted in the next election. So I think the idea, like it should be a positive thing if both sides work together, but it's not. It's suicide for the Democrats if they want to do anything on, on some health topics or anything else we're talking about. So I think that's part of it. It's like the division machine, I think is such a sad state of affairs because the only thing, the only people that profit off of it are multinational corporations. They're not the American people.

Yeah, it's definitely true. And it's, it's such a sad state of affairs that our health has become a political issue because this is something that should have never, ever, ever been a partisan issue.

No.

And it's really astounding that it has taken this direction.

Yeah, right. I know. And it's. You think, okay, I, I thought a few years ago or even when this whole maha thing like finally Republicans are talking about gut health and inflammation. They're interested in food. Like, that's fantastic. Oh, wait, I, the minute they did that, everyone just started saying it was, you know, crazy and we're not going to talk about health. And it's, it's all woo, woo. It's all quackery. It is really a sad state of affairs. Hopefully the people that have, people that have ears to hear are hearing. And I think that's the silver lining in all of this is that they're protesting too much. Has woke up so many more people like so many people woke up during the pandemic and so many more people are Waking up with the amount of protesting that Secretary Kennedy, at least at the time of filming this, he's one of, if not the most popular cabinet member for a reason, because he's just talking about basic health stuff. And I think most Americans can see through the hyperbole and the smear campaigns.

Yeah, I agree. So I've taken up a lot of your time. I just have a couple more questions. The first is you're a really accomplished guy. You're very mission driven. What are you most proud of?

Wow, That's a good question. I professionally am actually most proud of our patients. I think that to be able to do, to build an amazing art piece and that I see it as, like, a beautiful project that we get to build on improving someone's labs and improving someone's life and the ineffable that you can't measure, but someone's, like, zest for life and vigor and vibrant wellness being rebuilt and coming into fruition is a beautiful thing to see. So professionally, that's. If I had to think, like, what's the most exciting. It is that paradigm shift. It is that sort of growing and get empowering somebody. But at the end of the day, and maybe, I don't know, it's just my kids, I think being at a certain age now they're two teenagers, and being on the other side of parenting, the thing I'm most proud of, actually, are my kids. So. And being able to go on this beautiful ride with them over the past 15 years, like, anytime I speak or go on a podcast somewhere or do a book signing or I took one of them over over the years. So being able to have all the special memories with my kids while I got to do what I love and talk about health, it's probably my favorite thing that I got to do.

Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. I agree with you that of all the amazing things that I've had the privilege, the great privilege of doing in this life, raising amazing humans is probably my proudest.

Yeah, it's. I mean, there's nothing like it. Right. And it's what matters. At the end of the day, we talk about this madness on social media, madness on the news, madness in the world. You know, it's a lot of. It's. It's not that it's not real life. It's real life, but it's noise. It's stuff. You can't control everything, but to really remind yourself of what matters, and they remind me what matters every day. So I think to have that anchor is a beautiful thing.

Yeah. All right.

I'm just curious your take on a couple of things. Are you a coffee drinker?

I am. I'll have one to three cups a day. Organic, black coffee, pretty basic.

Okay.

Do you, do you believe that coffee is good for you, bad for you or neutral?

It depends. It's subject to bio individuality, right? I mean there's people that look, I deal, I look at bio individuality all day long. There are people that have slower detox gene variants. CYP1A2, it's a detox gene. There are some slow metabolizers of caffeine, which, you know, coffee's more than just caffeine, but any caffeinated beverage, it makes them jittery, heart palpitations, it's impacting their REM and their deep sleep and their heart rate variability, their blood pressure, it's not going to be good for them. Maybe small amounts, you can find a threshold that works for them. But, and that's just that one detox gene, let alone looking at gut health, like how does it impact some people's digestion and it's hurting their stomach. So it's a whole food that's subject to bio individuality. I do great with it. I will be honest, I think I overdo it some days and I have it too late in the day. So for people that are fast metabolizers of coffee or caffeinated beverages, my advice would be just have it earlier in the day and have a few cups and have it organic. Have it. If you're going to be super bougie, I would test, have a brand that has it tested for mycotoxins or mold toxins. I look at biotoxins. Yeah, it's a high mold crop and some people are mold sensitive and it could be a cause of inflammation, irritation. For some people, not everybody, but certainly in my subset of people that I look at labs for, they're sensitive to these things. So I certainly can see if someone's depending on a drink every single day that sort of cumulative effect of these low grade levels of mold or whatever other things you're talking about. You want to make sure it's good quality.

Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. I know you wrote a book about fasting. Everyone wants to know what is your fasting schedule?

It depends on the day. So I my book was called Intuitive Fasting. So it really was talking about how to use fasting as a medicine and meditation and as a mindfulness practice. So it's about finding that own threshold for you. So I would I would encourage people to get that book to learn that. And for me what it looks like is typically I would say an 18 hour fast. 16, 18 hour fast during the week. And it's done. Not like it's not miserable. I just do it intuitively. And I break my fast around lunchtime. And then on the weekends I have a bigger eating window. I do 12:12, which is not even fasting for the fasting aficionados out there. But it's just not eating too late at night. That's most weeks are like that. Occasionally I'll do like, I would say seasonally. I do extended fasts. Occasionally I'll do omad, like one meal a day. But those are occasional.

I think you're my, my twin.

We doing the same thing.

That's basically my exact fasting schedule.

I love that. Yeah, yeah, it works with our schedule, seeing people and you know, it does, it does.

And also I have found that since I started to do. What we're talking about is a variety of the fasting techniques because we do intermittent fasting and time restricted eating and, and that kind of thing. And so it has made me not so food centered.

Yeah.

I don't know if you feel that. I mean I used to be very aware of oh, it's time to eat and now it's like, oh yeah, it's two o', clock, I better eat something.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's what metabolic flexibility yeah, I think that's what metabolic flexibility can do. And we're not hypocaloric. Be clear on this. Like, we're not hypocaloric. We're just not, we're, it's like we're not not eating. We are eating. It's just we're eating in specific windows. We're well satiated, we're well nourished. Yeah. So I think people lose the context of it, but it is it when you have metabolic flexibility, you eat when you're hungry and you'll eat until satiety. It's not something that is extreme. It's really not. You have to build that. And fasting is a way to build metabolic flexibility. So we'll be new, uncomfortable, unnatural when you are metabolically inflexible, metabolically rigid. But that's what you're doing, you're doing to build that. So if I went to the gym one time and I never worked out in my life, I could be, I would be sore. It's going to be unnatural. It's going to be, oh my gosh, I could Say, well the gym's not for me, I'm just going to do it once. And that's the, but people realize like, yeah, we don't, we're not good at it because we're not flexible. Or even like yoga would be a good analogy. Like you to build flexibility, be good at yoga. Well, with fasting you're building metabolic flexibility so you can go longer without eating. Not because it's some restrictive disordered eating, it just you, your body's better and more efficient at fueling itself.

So that's, that's, and the gym is not for me. I still do it, I go twice.

A week, but I hate it, but I do it. Hey, hey. Yeah. Hey. Sometimes we do things we don't want to do.

I know. So do you have any of those things? Are there things that you recommend to other people that are hard for you to do?

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. I, I stay up too late, I, I'm like the worst patient in some ways. So I, I, I do the food, I have down the supplements, I have down the peptides, all of that biohacks I have down am, but it's the basic stuff for me. I, because I'm seeing patients during the day, I want to hang out with my wife and my kids and my golden doodles. So it's like I'm staying up too late some nights, I'm watching TV too late at night. Now look, I'm wearing blue light blocking glasses. But still, if I was like, it's not the most ideal, I'm having caffeine too late in the day because I like coffee, I like tea, I drink lots of tea. It's still caffeinated black tea, white tea, puer tea, green tea tea, oolong tea. I love all the teas. Yeah, I love your mate. Absolutely. So I, I overdo it. So I, I have no problem with sharing my frailties because I know if I stop them it'd be better. But those are like my few things that I probably just overdo a bit much where like my sleep scores could be a bit better and all of that. But you know what, at the end of the day I'm not stressed about it.

This is my last question for you. So you just mentioned peptides and biohacks and that kind of thing. And people like you and I are often accused of only providing solutions for the masses, even though I push back against that constantly because the vast majority of the things that I recommend do not cost anyone anything extra beyond what they would be doing. Like yeah, you still have to eat, you still have to sleep, you still have to move, right? Like you still have to breathe. So what, Tell me some things that you recommend that really move the needle that are available to everyone.

Yeah, yeah, you're right. That is a critique that we get where it's like, we're. Where we're not. The average person can't do it. I think a lot of this is American consumerism excuses, right? Because if you talk about the latest iPhone or the latest streaming device or the latest clothes and fashion and materialistic stuff, very rarely will you hear people say, well, that's not accessible. Like, everybody has an iPhone. Everybody has this. Like, no one will flinch spending thousands of dollars or making payments with a credit card debt on this materialistic junk that just rusts and decays. But yet when you talk about health, again, it's this fun propaganda machine around it. It's like, no, depend on the sick care system. Depend on the sick care system. That's all that you have. It is indoctrination. I think largely because you're right, most of this stuff. And actually I saw a study recently that showed, again, you have to be smart with it, that you could spend a lot of money on healthy foods. Believe me, you can. But if you're smart with it, I live in the Rust Belt rural food desert in Western Pennsylvania. I can go to all.

Yeah, you do not live in, in the part of Pennsylvania which is flush with health.

No, please. So when people, like, I call them the Neiman Market, the Neiman Marxists on social media that want to talk about. No, just depend on the system. Like, like, just. They're constantly victimizing people and saying, well, like, it's health. You have to be wealthy to be healthy. That's not my experience. I can go to Aldi and Costco, I can go to Walmart and Target. I can go to all these places and yeah, you're going to shop around for the best price, but I help people do that. Live paycheck to paycheck, eat healthier and, and they're not perfect, but pragmatically, let's find the better for you option for you. So I think it's a lie and propaganda spin from Big Food and Big Pharma that says you have to be wealthy to be healthy. That's not true. Or I saw a recent ad from a chemical, a big chem company that said glyphosate keeps food costs low. So I mean, that is just pure propaganda to like, yes, we have to have poison to have Affordable food. But this stuff is done in other countries without these chemicals. And so many of the chemicals and their prices are still the same. So I, I think I'd start with food and just shopping in places that provide better for you options. And I would say things like breath, work, meditation, grounding, journaling, gratitude, practice. The world would be a better place if people started bringing in these acts of stillness that are free other than your time, low cost things that people can start to have agency on their health. And look, most of the content that I put out there, most of the information, educational stuff, is free or low cost. Like if I look at the articles that I read every week, free, the podcast that I put out twice a week, free. And the information, a lot of it is free or low cost. And yes, they're going to be some expensive, higher end, expensive things. Don't do it. It's something for everybody. It doesn't have, you don't have have to do everything to start seeing your health move in the positive direction. So I think people just need to be better discerned, have, have better discernment on the information they, they bring in. Like, there's so much of this sort of victim what about me isms where it's like, okay, maybe five of the things I talk about five things and like two are higher end and three are not. They'll say, well, what you can't, nobody can afford them. Okay, you're realizing that not everything's about you and that some people can afford those things and they're there for those people who want them, but you can do the other three. So we have a bunch of these keyboard warrior complainers on social media where they just think it's all free, but they're complaining about the free stuff. So it's just, you know, we have such a victim mentality that I think people are just looking for excuses to be kept back.

I agree, I agree. So on the flip side of that, what's one of the, or two of the biohacking things that you love that aren't free? That aren't free, like decadent and indulgent. Like what are, what are some of the things that you love that also you think make a big difference and move the needle?

I mean, look, I think food is one of those things where it's like, yeah, if you do have the means buying some like better quality meat, like grass fed, grass finished beef, and these aren't biohacks. But I'm saying if you don't have the budget for that, buy the regular meat. I'd rather have someone have regular meat versus some organic refined sugar like green washed thing.

Don't tell me that you're buying organic gummy bears.

You have missed the point. Exactly. Yeah. Do the best you can with the access you have and give the rest to God. But if you do have the means, buying better quality eggs, better quality meat I think is a good thing. Those are not like expensive biohacks, but they're things that will cost more money versus the conventional stuff. But I think sometimes being strategic, I think produce, looking at the clean 15 and a dirty dozen, getting organic on those dirty dozen because they do use higher levels of herbicides and pesticides. And I'm talking about the work of the environmental working group. I think that is if you can spend more money on organic produce when they are using higher herbicides and pesticides can be a good idea. But if you're looking at like the. In my personal life, the things that do cost money but are some of the best things, I would say let's think my sauna. I have a sunlight and sauna. I love that thing. They're like for our telehealth patients that don't have the budget or the space. Like they have sauna blankets that can be better. Like better alternatives that are cheaper and more space efficient.

The relax tent, like there are options out there. Definitely. So you love infrared sauna?

I love my infrared sauna. It is like an oasis. I have a little. I do some breath work and meditation in there, so some habit stacking and I. There's a flat, you know, a tablet in there. So I watch like latest. I'm a history nerd, so I like watching history documentaries. So I love it. It's like my little chill out time.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. I love it. This was amazing. I loved spending time with you.

Yes, thank you.

I actually have like 20 more questions, but I think I've taken enough of your time today and I'm gonna come visit you very soon and we're going to record for your podcast. So, you know, I'm sure I'll get them in then.

Yes, for sure.

Where can people find you?

Thank you so much for having me. Everything's@drwillcole.com that's-r w I l l c o l e dot com. The telehealth information is there. We recently launched a regenerative organic line of like stem cell protein and all these things that I'm really excited about that I get to talk about with patients.

Oh yeah, I heard that on your podcast last week. Week you were talking about all those products. Do you want to just give us a little rundown?

Yeah, it's called Longevity Rx. So I worked with regenerative farms in Missouri and Tennessee to come out with these nutrient dense superfood combinations that I found to be spacious with that are not a lot of great quality products out there that will move the needle. So there's a stem cell protein, there's a methylation support. There is a whole food magnesium with a D3K2. There's a whole food electrolyte blend. There is. I think I'm missing something, but. Oh. A probiotic. Probiotic chili. And it's a prebiotic, probiotic, parabiotic, and postbiotic. So it's all these really fascinating compounds that I wanted to put together. And yeah, it's called Longevity Rx. Longevity Rx. But the links are@drwilcool.com and they can go to trylongevityrx.com if they want to go to the. Directly to that site.

Yeah, I'm really excited about these products.

Thanks.

So I'm looking forward to just my own use and incorporating them into my practice. So I'm very much looking forward to them.

Thank you.

And just quickly, about your last book.

Yeah. Gut Feelings. Gut Feelings. It's born out of my work with our telehealth patients. It's looking at both physiological and psychological drivers of human health. So underlying gut problems, stealth infections, environmental toxins on the physiological side, and then chronic stress and unresolved past trauma, emotional trauma, and how that sort of how the gut impacts the feelings and then the feelings impacts the gut. It's called Gut Feelings. And it's really out of all the books that I've written up until that point, my favorite one. Yeah. So Gut feelings.

Amazing. Well, Dr. Wilcohl, it was an absolute pleasure to have you here today. I think we talked about a whole spectrum of things and all important conversations and we just need to keep these conversations going because when the system breaks down, when the communication breaks down.

Down.

Absolutely. We've had decades of just absolute communication breakdown. And I think that you have said this before, where the only way that we're going to be successful is when we marry the systems and when the systems come together and we are able to ask and answer the questions for people and give them solutions that we know we can make a difference in nearly everyone that chronic disease is. Diet, lifestyle, environment, most of the time, 80% of the time, maybe even 90% of the time, and these are the people that are filling our office, our proverbial office, every single day. We can help them and help a lot more than just is coming to us if we cross the aisle and give people answers to these questions that they're either not asking or asking and not getting answers.

Yeah. Well said.

Thank you so much for the work that you do, for being that shining light upon us all, and for being a tremendous inspiration to me. I'm so, so, so grateful to you.

Thank you. So great to catch up with you.

And I'm grateful to all of you that joined us today. If you like this episode, please share it with someone who, you know, needs to hear it. And trust me, you know people that need to hear it and know that. I will be back next week, same time, same place. It's Dr. Jen.