Coming To Terms With The New Reality Of COVID-19 with Katie Couric

Coming up on this episode of the Doctor's Pharmacy.

I'm going to keep my fingers crossed and hope like you are that this will result in a massive reset.

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Welcome to the Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman and that's Pharmacy with an F, F-A-R-M-A-C-Y, a place for conversations that matter and if you care about what's happening in the world today, this conversation is going to matter because it's with my friend and an extraordinary visionary leader and communicator about what's happening in the world and has been for decades, Katie Couric, who you all know. She's an award-winning journalist, New York Times bestselling author, and a co-founder of Stand Up to Cancer, which is quite an amazing organization, which launched in 2008, and it's raised more than $600 million to support cutting-edge collaborative science and research. And it has supported and contributed to six new FDA-approved therapies for cancer, which is amazing. Katie's been A fixture in our worlds for decades and decades. She was the first woman to solo anchor a network evening newscast, serving as the anchor and managing editor of the CBS Evening News from 2006 to 2011, which I watched often following 15 years as a co-anchor of NBC's Today Show. She's won a DuPont Columbia Award, a Peabody, two Edward R. Murrow Awards, a Walter Cronkite Award, and multiple Emmys. I'm so honored to have Katie on the podcast. She's now working on Katie Couric Media, which we'll talk about which is an incredible set of projects around daily newsletters, podcasts, digital video series, documentaries. We've talked about doing documentaries more together. We worked together on Fed Up a few years ago. I was a medical expert on Katie's television show when that was going on, and we've known each other for quite a while. So welcome, Katie, and so great to have you here today.

Hi, Mark. So good to be with you. I'm sorry, did they make you read that long introduction?

I cut out three quarters of it. It was like, it would have gone for like two years.

I apologize for that, but I'm so happy to be with you and so appreciative of the information and guidance you're giving people, not only during this critically important and scary time, but every day in terms of people's health and well-being. So I'm really thrilled to be with you because I have a lot of respect and admiration for you.

Oh, thanks, Katie. Well, you know, today is March 31st, 2020, and every day in this era of COVID is a century, essentially. And this is a pretty unprecedented time. You know, I've been around for 60 years. You're probably a couple years ahead of me, but not too many. And, you know, we've never seen anything like this in our lifetime. And you've covered pretty much every relevant event over the last, you know, 30, 40 years. How is this different? And how do you put this in perspective of what's happened to the world over the last 50 years.

Well, I certainly have never seen or witnessed anything like this in my lifetime. My daughter Carrie works for Reuters and her boss said it was eerily reminiscent at the city was of 9/11 or aftermath of 9/11. And I think it's even more I don't know, intense, more obviously global than 9/11. The enemy is this insidious, unseen force. I mean, a kind of biological terrorism, right?

Yeah.

I think I don't think I've seen anything like it. I think I would say it's one of the most monumentally, serious stories that I've lived through. And it's just, I've just never seen anything like it. It's even hard to describe. I think the number of people, the number of countries, I think what's really scary and Mark, this is really your area of expertise, how little scientists really understand about this virus, how it's been such an evolving process of people learning about why it affects people in different ways. Who it affects, is it because of the viral load people are exposed to? Is it because of something about their genetic makeup or biology that makes them particularly susceptible in addition to comorbidities or underlying conditions? So I think the fact that it's Still more or less a mystery. They don't know if you're gonna be immune to it. They don't know if it's gonna be seasonal. They don't know so many things about it. And that's why I think it's such a perplexing story as well.

Yeah, and it creates collective anxiety because we know so little. Like if we knew it was coming and it would pass and it acted this way and it did this thing, we could sort of deal with it. But right now, I think there's a sense of what's going on, how long is this gonna last, how long are we gonna be, in lockdown, how long does it take to develop a vaccine or medications? You know, this morning, I'm always looking at the literature, what's happening and what treatments are available. And in China, they were using high-dose vitamin C intravenously and seeing incredible outcomes. And now there's four hospitals in the US that have implemented protocols using high-dose IV vitamin C and much improved outcomes.

So, oh, is that right?

Yeah, yeah.

There are therapies, We talked about that. I think when you and I did an Instagram Live about this, I think you talked about the possibility of vitamin C. So that's fascinating. Something that's pretty easy to get, I imagine.

It's true. It's true. It's very easy. It's low risk. And so there are ways to sort through this. And I think the point you made earlier was really important is that we don't know that much about it, but what we do know is that if you are malnourished, if you are eating a processed diet and it's nutrient depleted, if you are low in vitamin D, if you're low in zinc, and if you're low in selenium, if you're eating a lot of sugar, if you're not getting adequate protein, if you have obesity, heart disease, diabetes, you're much more likely to be at risk of getting it and of having more severe and bad consequences from it, whether it's hospital admission or even death. So, you know, that's something we do know. And it's something that, you know, you and I have sort of talked about in the past about chronic disease and the effect of sugar in our diet. And I think that's something that, you know, as people are hunkering down, and we talked about this on your Instagram live, it's easy for people to think about, well, I'm just going to eat comfort foods. I'm just going to have cake and cookies. And it's probably not the right time to do that. In fact, it's probably the right time to actually get our lifestyle sorted because we're home, we can cook, we can actually develop a rhythm. My wife and I have been working this out. How do we live in a way that supports us emotionally, physically, spiritually throughout this time and still do the work we need to do? Because it's easy to get caught up in the drama, the chaos, the pain. I think that's what we're all feeling.

Yeah, you talked about existential anxiety. And the one thing I was thinking about the fact that there's so much uncertainty. I remember talking to some expert at some point in my career about about human behavior and unpredictability is one of the most unsettling and difficult situations to deal with. They say, for example, if you have someone who's mean to you all the time, you know, you know, basically they're a son of a b***.

It's coming.

You have someone who's nice to you most of the time. You think, okay, well, that person's nice. But when you never know what to expect from someone, that is the most upsetting situation to be in. So this is kind of that way on a grand scale. Not knowing, this uncertainty, I think, must feed people's anxieties in ways that we can't even imagine.

You're also out in front of this, and you've been interviewing experts and talking to people, scientists, politicians, People focused on.

Psychologists, psychologists, dealing with the executives to help them with leadership and a time of crisis. A lot of doctors on the front lines, nurses. Yeah, I've been talking, I've been trying to kind of COVID this from a whole slew of angles. I interviewed the guy who broke contagion.

Yeah.

And Dr. Lipkin from Columbia, from the Mailman School, who was the major consultant on that movie.

He got sick, right?

He got coronavirus. He has coronavirus. I mean, I don't know if you've rewatched or ever watched that movie, but it is absolutely eerie how prescient it is. And, you know, spoiler alert, at the end they showed that this worldwide pandemic was started by a bat who I think there was a bat dropping eaten by a pig. The pig was being cut up in a restaurant, I believe, in Hong Kong.

Yeah.

Wiped his hands on his apron, shook Gwyneth Paltrow's hand, and she became patient zero.

Yeah.

Anyway, it's just crazy. And the CDC, the guy did three years of research on this. And I don't know, I have a friend, well, I talked to Kristen Bell. I don't think we're friends exactly. Nice. I talked to Kristen Bell yesterday because she did a Nickelodeon special for kids. and she has watched Contagion three times.

Oh my God.

Listen, she has anxiety issues anyway. I think someone needs to cut her off.

Yeah, well, it's true. I think it's easy to get consumed with the bad news. But before I get to that, I want to sort of ask you what you've been learning from talking to these psychologists, doctors, scientists, business leaders. What are you hearing out there on the ground that people are thinking? what are they doing? How are they reacting? How are they adapting?

I think it depends on who you are. I talked to an emergency room doctor who said, you know, this is why he was trained. This is what he does when people, you know, just like firefighters run into a burning building, that's what he's doing right now. Every day he's working. You know, I think a lot of these people are going to have PTSD. I think that they're doing what they're required to do. I mean, I think what all of us, if we, if we love what we do for a living, we're passionate about it. We kind of go into autopilot and do it. But, you know, he said he had to intubate a good friend of his, a nurse who later passed away, something like 45 years old. And I think, I think it's like a war zone. That's how they're describing it. And so PTSD is actually a very appropriate term when it comes to dealing with trauma that they're not only experiencing, but they're witnessing. So, you know, I think it's, it's, I, I don't want to be really negative, but I think it's a terrifying situation in these hospitals. And I think the response, a lot of the people I'm talking to, I've been discussing the, the US Readiness for a pandemic like this. I don't know if you've watched Bill Gates. Ted Talk in 2015 who basically predicted this. Dr. Lipkin said, we've had scientists talking about this for years. And I think it shows a real failure of our government and of our institutions on a federal, state, and local level. I think human nature, you talk about Social Security solvency. I think people have a very difficult time mark dealing with potential crises that aren't right in front of their faces. And I think the fact that this commission or this group, the pandemic response team, I interviewed Beth Cameron, who was in charge of that during the Obama administration, the fact that it was not exactly dissolved but reorganized, put under the umbrella of a different organization that that wasn't myopically focused on this.

Yeah.

I'm like, oh, we don't need that.

Yeah, I think it's, you know, I hope there's a COVID-19 commission like there was the 911 commission. And I hope some real changes.

In.

How we prepare for this are really implemented because I don't think this is necessarily, I mean, you tell me, Dr. Hyman, I don't know if this is gonna be the last pandemic we may be facing.

No, for sure, it won't be. And I think, you know, throughout history, there's been pandemics. We've just been isolated, right? It's been the bubonic plague. There's, I mean, Marcus Aurelius died in a pandemic.

1918.

1918, right. So I think we're just sort of living in this bubble in the 21st century and the latter part of the 20th century where everything is nice and calm and easy and we think it's okay. But the truth is, you know, humanity has suffered through this throughout its history. And it's coming, it's coming again. And I think to have a more coherent way of dealing with it is possible. And it's tragic that we have it. You know, when you look at countries like South Korea and Singapore, even China, you know, they're a little bit late, but once they got on it, they were on it. And, and we've seen a slowing of transmission. We've seen, you know, in this country, what terrifies me is that, is the risk to health care workers. It's unconscionable that, that we don't have personal protective gear.

It is so insane and so infuriating.

They're telling doctors to like wash their masks and put them in a little bag with their names on them. I mean, this is almost criminal. It's like sending soldiers to war without a gun.

Oh, it's true. And the N95 masks have to be carefully fitted. A friend of mine who's a doctor explained the whole process where you have to read the ABCs or sing a song, recite a poem, and make sure that you're not inhalIng this spray that they put on. Right, Mark? Yeah. And that is so maddening that they don't have the equipment they need. Yeah, I get so upset about that. And I didn't realize, Mark, that you are supposed to kind of change that mask every time you see a new patient.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Not just every day, every new patient, you're supposed to have a new mask.

Yeah, new mask, new gown, new gloves. And I think in China, they've reduced the contagion to healthcare workers to zero because of aggressive use of personal protective equipment. And here we don't. And it just, still the doctors and nurses and healthcare workers are doing this. I mean, at Cleveland Clinic where I work, they've converted the entire medical school. There's a giant atrium in the middle and they're putting a thousand hospital beds in there to get ready. It really is like a war zone. I went down to Haiti after the earthquake and so did I. Yeah, I remember. And it was unlike anything I'd ever seen. And it was tough to be in there, but it wasn't the same as it is now because now doctors and nurses are at risk and healthcare workers are at risk. And that's what's terrifying because if we lose them, then our ability to handle the onslaught is going to be diminished and we're going to see more and more deaths.

It's so true. And I think about all the retirees that they're bringing back in. You know, I've been keeping up with a lot of this, trying not to OD on it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Most of the people that I've seen in recent days are men in their 70s.

Yeah.

Who obviously probably have some underlying conditions or some medical issues, but. I think about bringing some of these doctors and nurses out of retirement who are older, who might have inevitable health issues that often come with aging or sometimes do. And I think about putting them in harm's way. It's just a very, very scary situation. And I think what's been really troubling about this is people who don't have underlying conditions who are, I've talked to these doctors, people in their 40s and 50s. who are contracting this. Now, maybe they have an underlying condition they don't know about, right? Even their loved ones don't know about. I talked to a woman in Florida who lost her 39-year-old husband. He had aches for a week. He thought maybe there was something wrong with his mattress. He went to the hospital and no, and then he started getting sick. Then suddenly they're intubating him. and she's saying goodbye. She was able to get into the hospital because she's in healthcare on a cell phone behind a piece of glass with her 12-year-old daughter sitting with him. And it was just so heartbreaking. She very much wants to have an autopsy performed on him because she thinks it would benefit science and people's understanding, but apparently, I don't know if you know about this, Mark, only 5% of COVID patients who pass away are having autopsies performed. I guess maybe they don't have the medical staff to do it or...

It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming. I mean, there's no place to put the bodies in Europe. It's really tragic.

And the lack of, I think about this because I've had my husband and my sister die. and the lack of dignity in these deaths. I mean, first of all, that these people are alone. It's almost hard to even talk about because it's so upsetting. They're all by themselves. Their bodies are lined up in hallways or in refrigerator trucks. They can't have proper burials. I mean, it's just, the trauma to the families is exacerbated by all these, first of all, the shock of this, and then the shock of not being able to go through a normal grieving process is just absolutely devastating.

So how, you know, given that you're, you know, such a leader in the media and try to sift through and sort through all the, information to deliver to people, something that actually is truthful, it makes sense that, you know, maybe even a little bit reassuring. How do you see us handling this? Because I find myself, you know, sort of in almost an addictive pattern of like checking the New York Times and checking the news. I don't watch TV, but I just check all the media and read the articles. And I don't know if that's a good thing. I feel like I need to know enough, but I think it's overwhelming. My wife calls it doom surfing. And, you know, do we just try to sort of limit it? How do we manage this? Because it's not going away. It's every day there's something else.

And- well, every expert I've talked to basically says consuming this too much and too often is a no-no. I mean, it's just gonna I mean, I don't know about you, Mark, because you're a doctor and you've dealt with all this a lot. And so I'd be interested in knowing how your mental state is dealing with this because this is what you do, you know? This is what you care about, what you're passionate about is medicine. And so I'll ask you in a minute, but I think all the experts basically say, you know, you, you can't have a steady diet of this. It's just going to send your anxiety levels through the roof. So, you know, we do this morning newsletter called wake up call. I do that people can subscribe to. And a lot of my followers say they're so grateful for it because they see what's going on. We give them the highlights of what they really need to know, big elements and then they can go about their day. I think, you know, just sitting in front of a television or constantly scrolling through your phone is not a good thing. We do these COVID bullet points every night on my Instagram to just kind of tell people what they need to know that happened that day. And then, of course, the live interviews I'm doing. So I've tried to respond to the need for people to be informed but not be obsessed. And I'm curious, Mark, I mean, do you find that it adds to your anxiety by doom surfing as your work?

Yeah, it does. But you know, what I feel like I channel into is an effort to understand and communicate the facts about what we know and how to deal with this, both medically, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. And I think that's where I feel of service. And so I can get out of my own anxiety about what's happening to my family, to my life, and focus on service and what I can do to help, which is what you're doing. It's much better. When I was in Haiti, it was horrific. I mean, the 82nd Airborne was there and they said they'd never seen anything like what they saw there, even if if they were in Afghanistan and Iraq, there were 300,000 people dead, 300,000 people wounded, and we were right in the epicenter of it. And yet every day I was of service and I wasn't overwhelmed because I was doing something. And so I think all of us, if we can actually do something, whether it's just an act of kindness to a stranger, calling somebody, you know, making a pot of soup and dropping it at your neighbor's house, whatever it is, we can do those little acts of kindness and service that actually take us out of our own sort of narrow view of how it's affecting us. And I think that's a really important thing for us to remember because we're all in this together, even though we're separate. We're all in this together.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, I gave the same advice to people on an interview that I was doing with a psychoanalyst who works with leaders and CEOs. with this Carrie Sulkowicz. He's awesome. And I was saying the same exact thing that I think powerlessness is the worst feeling. Uncertainty is terrible, but also feeling like you can't, out of control, to feel out of control and powerless is horrible. And I think anything that you can do proactively, I agree, to help other people to get out of your own self and to feel like you are of service. That's why, you know, I'm doing all of these interviews just because I wanna be able to, I have access to people that the person at home may not have access to, like you, Mark, or somebody else. And I can say, hey, let me share a conversation that may be instructive or helpful. And, you know, not that this is a proper segue, but, you know, when my husband was sick, I think that that feeling of powerlessness was almost paralyzing. And the only way I could, the only antidote for me, with the tremendous grief and pain of seeing my healthy 41-year-old husband deteriorate from stage four colon cancer, was doing research, finding out information, and then starting starting an organization like the NCCRA, the National Colorectal Cancer Research Alliance, and raising money for these scientists, bringing colorectal cancer, the second leading cancer killer of men and women combined.

Yeah.

Forefront, getting a colonoscopy, doing these things that could at least make me feel like there was something I could do.

Yeah, no, it's so true. I mean, I think we, we can often use these times of crisis and hardship to emerge a little bit better as human beings. And I think that's what I think all of us should be thinking about. And I'm curious how your perspective, given the sort of long arc of history that you witnessed in all the different crises and tragedies around the world, how you see the aftermath of this. Because we've, and I've never seen this before in my lifetime either, is this level of disconnection, divisiveness, conflict, ideology, whether it's diet wars, or whether it's religious wars, or whether it's ideological wars, or political wars. It just seems like we live in such a divided, separate society. And this is an experience we're all having, this common experience of this virus is affecting all of us and sort of calling out our common humanity in a way that I think has never happened in my lifetime. and we're all in this together, whether, you know, Republican or Democrat or paleo or vegan or Muslim or Jewish or Christian or, you know, Chinese or American, whatever it is, we're all in this together. And, you know, I just read that, you know, we got a shipment of medical supplies from Shanghai into New York the other day, which is like, wow, that's great. Like, that's really, that's, that's who we should be. And how do you see humanity changing and political worlds changing and the way we operate as a society changing after we get through this, because we will get through this. I mean, whether it's 12 months or 18 months, it's going to be a long ride, but it will be over at a moment. So what do you see given your, your perspective, looking backwards and looking forwards of how this is going to affect us?

Well, I, you know, I think after 9 11, there was there was that moment where I think all of humanity, Tony Blair, excuse me, and George W. Bush and, you know, everyone, I think, felt United. I think, unfortunately, Mark, we live in a very different world than even the world that existed 19 years ago. I think that The partisanship has gotten so intense that we're so bitterly divided. I think our media has become echo chambers of people with certain points of view. I think our leadership is severely lacking in an opportunity to unite us. in a moment like this, I think that that often leaders rise to the occasion. And I think it's very disconcerting to me to see President Trump picking petty fights with the media when, if he's angry that they're not reporting the story in the way that he wants to, by the way, every president gets annoyed with the media. It's not a phenomenon. They all feel like I can't imagine.

Anybody getting annoyed with you, Katie.

I think a lot of presidents feel as if they haven't gotten a fair shake or upset. And in fact, I'm in my office and I'm looking at a letter from George Herbert Walker Bush.

And.

He sent me this bumper sticker that says, I'm going to show it to you.

Okay.

Happen to have it right here. The media re-elected him. He wrote this lovely letter after I had done an interview with him in the White House. expected interview. Yeah. Someone as elegant and gracious as George Herbert Walker Bush, you know, he, he found it very troubling and upsetting when the media didn't portray him in a way that he thought he could be. It's just sort of part of the job. It's a fine print of the presidency. But I, I'm disappointed that president Trump hasn't taken this opportunity when he's asked if what do you say to the American people who might be scared?

Yeah.

To have this moment of reflection and, and to encourage unity and all the things that you and I have been talking about, about supporting each other, about acts of kindness, a way to, or an opportunity to provide almost a spiritual leadership. Instead, he gets involved in these petty exchanges, really not just an exchange where he berates and diminishes reporters and news organizations. And it's a real lost opportunity in my view to exhibit true leadership and to think of something more important than how a network is is portraying him. I mean, it takes a lot of self-discipline.

Yeah.

But he is the president of the United States. So I think I'm not, I'm not very optimistic, sadly, that this is going to usher in a sea change of how, how we treat each other. I think it's going to take a change at the top, and I think that it's going to take I think that right now, it's gonna, I don't know, the media, I think this president has brought out the very worst in the media in that the media, I mean, I don't know if you watch cable news ever, you said you don't, but as a sociological experiment, watch CNN and then watch Fox.

Yeah, I do that sometimes. I flip channels and I'm like, wait, what world am I living in?

It's like an alternate universe. and I think, you know, I think it's really, really hard. So I think it just, it's confirmation bias, right? It, people get affirmation, not information oftentimes.

Now.

Anyway, I don't want to.

But, you know, actually, you bring this up. It's really important. I mean, you won the Walter Cronkite Award. You won the Edward R. Murrow Award. These were journalists. who are fair, independent, impartial. And I think most people don't understand what's happened to the media and how we got cable news the way we have it. And maybe, if you can, just talk about the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine under Reagan and what the implications of that were. And if you're-- I'm assuming you know about this because the critical change-- So, so I think what's happened is there's been a real change where now we don't have, you know, fair and impartial media that it can be biased and not factual. And I think that's, that's frightening to me when you think of the media as a voice of investigation, truth and independence and suddenly it's changed. And I don't think people understand that. I think they understand how that happened.

I mean, I'm not an expert on the fairness doctrine, but I do know that as audience as the media has become increasingly fragmented, the desire to attract an audience and ergo advertisers has become more challenging than ever. And I think that media outlets have carved out their audience. So they have an audience that wants to hear what they're saying. I think that that was going on prior to President Trump, but I think he has exacerbated the problem because I think some of this coverage, I would.

Say.

CNN and MSNBC are in general, I find more factual. Now, maybe it's because my political leanings are more along those lines. But it's all on your perspective. You know, people on Fox have a very different perspective. And I think what's happened, it's all turned into opinion and more opinion, more commentary and less straight reporting.

So.

You have anchors rolling their eyes. And I think because President Trump's personal style and the way he comports himself is so unconventional and like nothing we've ever seen before, in a president, I think as a result, it's brought out these huge divisions in a way, and it's become imbued with personal opinion.

And.

You know, I mean, it's a complicated scenario, but I think that, you know, it's what I worry about is, at this moment in time when we've lost so much faith in our institutions, our financial institutions from the 2008 crisis are, you know, government. We've lost a lot of faith, certainly in the federal government. We've lost faith in media.

Yeah.

That when there's so much opinion that people feel that, you know, they watch something and they say, oh, they're biased. whether or not it's fact or not. So just because of the brand of the news organization, they automatically go in and say, oh, they're anti-Trump or they're pro-Trump. And so who is the honest broker in all of this?

Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you. Who do we trust? I mean, how do we know what's true in the media anymore? It just, it's just-- well, I do.

Think, I mean, just to, I think they're, you know, I would like to say all my friends who work in network news and many who work in cable news are telling the truth.

But.

But I think it's. It's like reading the editorial page of a newspaper. Right. It's. You're getting someone's take on it instead of what actually happened. And often someone's take is imbued by their. Their political ideology. you know, whether it's Rachel Maddow or Sean Hannity. So I think as a result, I think it's exacerbated the divide in this country because people can't have a conversation based on a common set of facts. And I think because this president is so often outrageous in his behavior in terms of trashing reporters or, you know, with self congratulations, it makes it really difficult for people to kind of put aside his personal peccadillos, if you will, and really focus on policy.

Yeah.

And I think, you know, he often colors the truth or he'll say, that's polite, Katie.

Yeah. So.

So, I mean, I think you feel like you're living in this crazy world where who do you believe? And, you know, if you have someone leading the country who makes statements and then says he never made them or, you know, misrepresents the facts, I mean, it's crazy town.

Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, what disturbs me a lot is the way in which our ability to sort of discern truth from fiction is being usurped by all sorts of things, not just in traditional media, but through a lot of digital targeted marketing that is actually causing us to think that there's fact when there's not. So the fact that Hillary Clinton had a pedophile ring in the bottom of a pizza shop and people literally went there and with guns and tried to stop it. I mean, That, that, and that was, you know, portrayed as fact in the media for a while.

That's insane. And I think social media and Facebook and digital media has allowed people all these rumors and fake stories and truly fake news to, you know, duplicate and to spread like wildfire. And yeah, it's a bad situation.

So, Katie, you know, you're a human like all of us. You're not just a, media darling, you have to take care of your life and deal with this as well. And I know you're sequestered away in Long Island, away from New York City with your family and trying to cope as well as you can with everybody else. And so what are the kinds of things you're doing on a daily basis to keep your sanity and to keep yourself well so you can be a voice for a reason and truth out there?

Well, I mean, first of all, I'm grateful every day that I have a place to be, that I have a house I can go to, that we, there are six of us, John's son and his girlfriend, my daughter, Carrie, Adriana, and John and I.

And.

You know, it's, it's, it's sort of fun to have more people, although John sent me a picture that with the caption, Please stop blinking so loudly, you effing a-hole.

Oh no.

I think it just was funny because it shows how like every little thing kind of gets on your nerves after a while.

Yeah.

In close quarters especially.

Yeah, as a friend of mine said, I got married for better or worse, but not for lunch.

Yeah, yeah, I've seen that. But so I feel I appreciate how lucky I am every single day, Mark. And I think, you know, I think about people who are losing their jobs who have financial pressures on top of the anxiety that already exists with this thing. So I feel grateful for that, first and foremost. I'm trying to help organizations like Bethany Frankel started this thing where she's providing masks to hospitals. There's a man not far from here named Andy. We call him Handy Andy, who's in his 90s, who lives alone. So I'm checking on him and bringing him food when I can. But mostly I'm staying really busy. I'm lucky that I have a lot On my plate. So I'm writing a book, I'm writing a memoir that's due this summer. And that's a really big job, as you know, as somebody who's written books, but I'm writing like the story of my life.

That's a big one.

Years. And that's, that's a lot. So I'm doing that. I'm doing podcasts. I'm, you know, we're having dinner every night. We're taking turns cooking dinner. I'm trying to exercise. the weather hasn't been very nice out here. And I find the weather has such an impact on your mood.

Yeah.

It's been pretty gray and dreary. It's a little sunnier today, but I've been trying to get out and take walks and go to the beach, which I find very restorative to just walk on the beach. And I'm trying to eat healthy, but, you know, every once in a while I can't help but eat a chocolate chip cookie or two.

I know.

I'm trying to avoid you know, I, I've had eating issues my whole life. I was bulimic when I was younger, and, you know, I have to kind of be gentle on myself because my tendency is to, to, you know, to punish myself sometimes with food, which is a whole different podcast. But I'm really trying to just take care of myself, be gentle with myself, and be gentle with the people around me. But most of all, I have this, this book to write. So every minute that I'm not doing a podcast or not working on my newsletter, not read, not doom, doom surfing like you, or doing an Instagram live, I am writing.

Yeah.

And, and I find that just having that deadline and that pressure over my head is really helpful at a time like this, because what better time?

Yeah.

I mean, you know, sometimes I don't have time to write. I'm going to the office. I'm working. I have all these different things I'm doing, I'm giving a speech, yada, yada, yada. But now, I mean, I have no choice.

I have to write this damn thing.

Yeah.

Well, that's good. I mean, I think, you know, it's a lesson for all of us, you know, what are the things that we can do that are creative or that nourish us or things we've been putting off or how do we sort of reevaluate our life? Because, you know, it's, for me, it's been an interesting moment where, you know, I'm usually on the road, I'm speaking, I'm teaching, I'm working, I'm, you know, doing so many things. And, you know, this is the first time in a long time where I've just been stuck at home. And, yeah, and actually it's the opposite of stuck. It's like the, the privilege of actually stopping for a minute, taking a breath and saying, how do I'm going to live my life going forward? How is my life going to look different after this?

How, yeah, I think you're right. I think if, if this doesn't change people, you know, on a national scale or society, I think it It probably is causing people to reevaluate sort of the level of happiness or, you know, for me, I find busyness is a way to avoid, you know, it's almost my drug. And I think people, even though I'm staying busy, but I think a lot of people are going to be saying, you know, really looking and evaluating their lives, as you said, and wondering, how can I make things better or different or, you know, we're all terminal.

Yeah.

Life is fragile. And are we going to want to be just existing the way we were before this happened?

Yeah. Yeah.

It's almost like Humanity is taking an existential deep breath and going, wait. you know, what is the world we've created? Is it the world we want to live in? How could it be different? How do I want to be different? How do I want to spend my time, my precious time on this planet? It becomes sort of more for me, at least, more relevant and more sort of compelling to sort of wait. Go, wait, wait. Like, what, what are we doing here? What, what is the way we want to be together? How do we sort of reinvent this craziness that we've created into a more livable, humane, connected, loving place. And I don't know if that's going to happen, if that's just Pollyanna fantasy, but it's definitely what I'm thinking about.

Because.

I think we're all in this together. We're all in this crazy, you know, adventure together.

I pray that it will alter a lot of things. I don't mean to be cynical, but I just. I don't know. I. I feel like we've reached this point, and it's going to be hard for a massive sort of emotional.

You.

Know, correction, if you will, at this point. I mean, I. I think it. I think, honestly, it. it has to do with leadership.

Where's FDR when we need him?

Yeah, well, I was thinking about that. The president could have said something akin to, we have nothing to fear but fear itself. I don't think that necessarily would have been applicable to these times, but he could have actually taken that moment and really spoken to everyone and, and appeal to our common Humanity and our better Angels.

Yeah.

And I think we need a figure like that who will truly, and I don't know who that is, by the way, but who has the capacity to truly unite us as a people and try to tamp down this vitriol that is just seething everywhere.

Yeah.

So destructive.

Yeah.

No matter where you sit. And, you know, it's prevented us from having reasonable conversations about Solutions.

Yeah.

So trapped in our respective Corners, we can't even hear each other anymore.

Yeah.

And be in the same room, so. You know, I'm gonna keep my fingers crossed and hope like you are that this will result in a massive reset.

Yeah, well, it's a moment for us to listen to ourselves, listen to each other. And now I wanna close the story that I heard from a man whose parents took in Nelson Mandela after he got out of prison. And this young boy's job was to bring him food every day and to be a witness to him being in their house. and he relayed these stories of these incredibly aggressive apartheid leaders coming in home and confronting Nelson Mandela so aggressively and violently. And Mandela would just stand there and listen and basically beam love at them and by the end and talk to them about themselves and their family and find a doorway into their common humanity. and at the end, they were, you know, they were friends and they were breaking down those incredibly, you know, almost like monolithic divisions between them into this common humanity. And I'm going to stand for that. I'm going to stand, because we are, you know, we're all in this together. And if that doesn't help, I don't know what will, but, you know, that's my pathological optimism, I think, coming through.

No, and I'm pathologically optimistic. to and I think, I mean, this is a very, very kind of complicated problem to untease. I'm developing a documentary series on loneliness and social isolation, which I was doing, I've been doing for the past year and a half. And I think there are a lot of people who, who live alone. They're, I think we're connected, but we're connected with people who are like us for the most part. And these opportunities opportunities to meet people who are different have just become fewer and fewer. And I did a series called America Inside Out for National Geographic. And I remember I talked to these EMS workers and there was a African-American worker talking about the history of lynching and slavery. And, you know, he talked about you know, he was trying to explain something to his colleagues and I witnessed him saying, gosh, we never thought about it that way.

Yeah.

And it was really fascinating to see that a conversation and empathy can move mountains, you know, an ability to actually talk about something and share something. And I think you know, we've sort of lost our ability to be empathetic to people who may have different life experiences or different opinions than we have. And I think that, I think, is the key to restoring some sense of, of National Unity. I think you can't have it without empathy.

No, I think that's right. I mean, then, and we all are suffering, and we all can have empathy with each other, whoever we are in this moment. And I think that's what you're saying. I think that's what you're trying to do and communicate. And, you know, you are a voice of kindness and reason and truth, and I really appreciate you for that, kitty. And I really, you know, honor you for, for doing the hard work of trying to find out what's true and telling that story.

So thank you. Well, thanks, mark.

Right back at you. And thank you for doing it for decades and decades and still doing it with a smile.

You make me sound like i'm 98 years old.

Yeah, you're not, but you've been at this since since you're like 12, right?

Yeah, since I was a toddler, Mark.

Yeah, so I think if you all know Katie, but you can follow her on all of her social media platforms, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Check out her website, katiekurk.com and sign up for, yes, I get it every morning, Katie's Wake Up Call. It's super helpful. It's super helpful. It's well organized. I can quickly scan it. learn what's happening. I can dig into articles that I want to learn more about. It's sort of a one-stop shop for a sane and humane way of looking at what's going on without too much sensationalism or very little, if any. And I just really appreciate that, Katie. It's a lot of work to put that together, so everybody should sign up for Katie's Wake Up Call. It's probably the best source of news out there today.

Thanks, Mark. We've got a great team working really hard. from their respective homes. And, you know, I feel like you do, Mark. You know, I feel like this is a calling for me. I feel like medicine is a calling for you. Yeah.

Yeah.

And we want to share, you know, I think it's in our nature to share what we've learned, what we know, or what we want to know more about with the public if we can be of service, especially at a time like this.

Oh, thank you, Katie. And everybody should check out her memoir when it comes because it's gonna be on my reading list.

We'll do another podcast when that comes out. Yeah, definitely.

Anyway, lots of love, Mark.

Yeah.

Thank you, Katie. So you've been listening to the Doctor's Pharmacy. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with Katie Couric. We'd love to hear from you. Please leave a comment, share with your friends and family on social media, and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. And we'll see you next time on Dr. Mark Hyman. Hi everyone, it's Dr. Mark Hyman. So two quick things. Number one, thanks so much for listening to this week's podcast. It really means a lot to me. If you love the podcast, I'd really appreciate you sharing with your friends and family. Second, I want to tell you about a brand new newsletter I started called Mark's Picks. Every week, I'm going to send out a list of a few things that I've been using to take my own health to the next level. This could be books, podcasts, research that I found, supplement recommendations, recipes, or even gadgets. I use a few of those.

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