Four Questions To Free You From Suffering with Byron Katie

Coming up on this episode of the Doctor's Pharmacy.

The cause of our suffering is what we're thinking and believing in any given situation.

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Week'S episode of the Doctor's Pharmacy. Welcome to the Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Hyman, and that's Pharmacy Within a Place for Conversations that Matter. And if you've ever suffered about anything, well, this is the podcast for you because it's about why we suffer and how we can be free from suffering, which seems like a crazy idea, but it actually is possible. And today we have an extraordinary guest, one of my favorite humans on the planet, even though I don't know her that well, She is a gift to humanity. She is a woman you might have heard about. Her name is Byron Katie and she discovered through her own suffering a way out for all of us, believe it or not. And it was a way out that is simple to do, is sort of obvious when you think about it, but it's not really something that most of us are very good at. And Byron woke up one day.

After.

10 years of depression and self-loathing and suicidal thoughts and all kinds of horrible experiences, and woke up one day filled with joy. And she realized that when she believed her stressful thoughts, she suffered. And when she questioned them, she didn't. And that was a true story that would be true for everybody. who wants to take that on. And she's created an incredible process of self inquiry, which I know has helped literally millions of people, many people I know and friends called the Work, which is very simple, but it consists of basically four questions and what we call a turnaround, which is a way experiencing the opposite of what you believe. So it's how do you get out of your stuck beliefs? And she's just worked on this tirelessly for the last 30 years in all kinds of events, workshops, intensives, And she's written some extraordinary books called Loving what Is. And a book which I love the title, which is I Need Love. Is that true? Because we all think we need love. And what it really is that about? A Thousand Names for Joy, what a great title. And A Mind at Home with Itself. Because how many of us are not at home in our own bodies and minds?

And you can learn more about her.

Work going to thework.com, thework.com, With that, I'd love to welcome you, Byron, to the Doctors Pharmacy Podcast.

Hi, Mark. Thank you. I love being here with you. It's a joy. I love your podcast. I see you on iTunes and especially being with you right here right now.

Well, it's so important. I think I've, through my own life, have really struggled a lot. with challenges that I face like everybody, whether it's divorce or health issues or challenges at work or relationships. And when I was younger, I studied Buddhism. And that was my major in college. And when I think about your work, I often think about what the Buddha was trying to do, which was kind of illuminate why we suffer. Like the four noble truths basically of the Buddha is you know, life is suffering. We suffer because we're attached to the story we have in our head about what's happening. And there is a way out of the suffering. And the fourth truth is it's called the eightfold noble path. Your work is much simpler.

Yeah, that noble path. It takes. It can take a while, as they say, several lifetimes. Yeah. Mark, I was in a hurry. Evidently, I just wanted to cut to the chase or. Something, by some grace, I just saw in a moment before the ego could fill that space, I saw how my world was created. It was like, duh. And I began to laugh. I was literally sleeping on the floor and opened my eyes and again, before the ego could fill the space, There it was. And it's nothing that I could tell or teach. I tried, tried my children, I tried the people on the streets. I was just wild with, you know, the end of, you don't have to suffer, but it was, you know, crazy times, but learn to be quiet very, very quickly and just live it. And then out of that quietness, people would you know, they noticed my, this radical shift in my life, radical shift everywhere. My physical, my emotional, my mental, everything was noticeable to my family and people around me. And so they began to ask how. And because I couldn't tell them, I put it in their camp. That's why this work is Just inquiry. There's no Byron Katie in it. It's just inquiry. It belongs to everyone or what value is it? And no one has to use it. It's just something that hangs out there. If you've tried everything else, you might try this or you might start with it. But I certainly encourage people to look into it. Now, because I can see it's shifting people all over the planet. And so it's not just me that says it's powerful.

No, clearly it's a powerful tool. We're going to get into the details of how it works, how the work works. But the thing I want to get to first is how you were just one of us normal humans who was running around life miserable, suffering, trying to find happiness and struggled in your 40s and before with real serious issues around self-worth and depression and suicidal thoughts.

And it was horrible, you know, for more than a decade, just agoraphobic, depressed, just my prayer was death to die and as soon as possible. It was painful to breathe, no way out. And so I guess seen, really believing there was no way out. By some Grace, I was shown a way out. And people don't have to. It doesn't have to be that dramatic or painful. Everyone has experienced enough suffering as far as I'm concerned. We've all had enough that would take us. Take us to look to ourselves, which is what inquiry is about.

Yeah. And so you're. You were in that state, and then you. this epiphany somehow, like there's some crack opened up in your consciousness.

Yeah.

Like you said, where ego couldn't rush in and you were able to see everything all at once, which is not how it works for most people.

Yeah.

You know, we're sort of incrementalists and we like learn a lesson. And one of my friends told me today, she's like, you kind of like forget, you have this forgetfulness when you learn something, when you forget it, you have to relearn it. And I found myself doing that over and over again. You know, and finally, like maybe the lessons stick, but this method that you call the work, you know, came out of that insight and the sort of unpacking, almost the slowing down of our mental process that causes suffering and a kind of chiropractic adjustment on our thinking that allows us to be free from that suffering, which is a crazy idea. And it's not something that most of us ever learned about, which is how do we navigate the sort of jungle of our own minds that take us into Dissatisfaction, dis-ease, conflict, worry, future orientation. How do we just drop into this moment that we're in and understand that it is perfect? And how do you do that?

The ego is, its job is to not be here now. Its job is to show the illusion.

The opposite of be here now. Be there then. Be there then.

Be here then. Now see, that's my song, Be here then, because you are. You know, if you can hear, if you can remember me saying, you are, you're in the past. So I recall being depressed.

Yeah.

In my bedroom, just locked in there.

Just.

Paranoid, just crazy. And I recall the pain. Okay. So now to do this work, I would identify what I was thinking and believing in that situation.

Yeah.

Because in that situation, what I was thinking and believing was the cause of my suffering.

Yes.

And no way out. So addiction happens in those states of mind. Like how do I react when I believe the thought? I think I'm moving ahead too.

No, you're right on it. I mean, I think the whole idea of our beliefs and our thoughts and our emotions being these things that you can unpack. Most of the times we're in this class reality where we have a thought based on a belief that creates an emotion and it all happens in a nanosecond. And it's almost like what happened for you is that it sort of slowed down so you could see, oh, this thinking may not be true, but I believe it and it's causing me to have all these horrible feelings and all this suffering.

Exactly.

And be miserable. And how do I break that cycle where I'm constantly believing the stupid thoughts that I have, making them real and putting meaning on things that are causing me so much pain?

Yeah, it would be like if I have the thought, like I ran into a old friend and she was in a hurry and sluffed me off and and my feelings were hurt. Okay. And now I'm thinking, what did I say? What did I do? Why did she? And she this and she that and all of that going on. So what is the cause of my suffering? What I was thinking and believing in that situation on standing on the corner when she did not have time for me. So now people can do what I did. They can. download on Byron Katie.com, they can download what I call a judge your neighbor worksheet. And there are six questions on that judge your neighbor worksheet. So because the ego is always in the past or future, and since that situation is up for me now, I look at the judge your neighbor worksheet, knowing that the cause of my suffering, again, is what I was thinking and believing then. So there's six questions on the worksheet and I filled them in with what I was thinking and believing then. I just answered the questions.

Yeah.

Now I'm going to question what I was thinking and believing because that was the cause of my suffering. And then as I question it, there are four questions and then I invite people to flip them. to try them on to see what is as true or truer for them in that situation. So the first question is, is it true? She doesn't care about me.

Yeah. No, clearly not.

And so I meditate in it. You know, the work is just pure. It takes stillness. It's pure. It's purely a meditative process. It is contemplation. And if I can do it, anyone can do it. So is it true? is the first question. Can I really know that it's true? So there's a combination of really two questions there. Is it true? Can I really know that it's true? She doesn't care about me. And then I meditate in that. I'm on the street corner with her. I see her face. I see her expression. I can hear her. Because when I'm believing the thought she doesn't care about me, I can't really hear her then. But I heard her, but the ego doesn't want me to hear it. So now I'm there, I'm still in it. And then the third question, how do I react? What happens when I believe the thought? And then Mark moves into your field. How do I react when I believe the, of course this is your field too, how do I react when I believe the thought she doesn't care about me? I get really still and I get in touch with my emotional. I see where I feel that. I feel how powerful it was maybe on a scale from one to three. How much of my body did it take over? I think it's just one place like in my solar plexus or maybe only in my shoulders. But then I notice as I sit and how I react when I believe the thought, it hit my shoulder, it hit my neck. And so I'm meditating in that. And then my chest, I see how much of my body is taken over emotionally when I sit and how do I react when I believe the thought. Now, all those emotions show up for a reason and it cannot be what she said and did. It can never be that. It's what I'm thinking and believing that is the cause of that emotion. Okay, so in that, how do I react when I believe the thought I continue with noticing the illusion the ego offers up?

Yeah.

It shows me the past where we were such good friends and it compares with, and what did I say or do? And then in the future where she's going to talk to people about me. She's going to ruin my reputation. She's going to, she doesn't care about me and that I know mind and in its past future. All the proof is right here in my head that she is a threat to my existence.

You just made it all up.

Yeah, a threat to my existence, meaning I that I want people to see me as kind and loving and a good friend and she's blowing it and she's gonna blow it with, you see that identity, the ego is always protecting. So as I said in how I react when I believe they thought all of this comes up. Now, this is where addiction comes in. When I'm thinking that on her, I feel guilty. Yeah. That's just a given. I don't have to like it. It's a given. And guilt is, it's an amazing thing. It says, look at your thinking. What are you thinking and believing? Something's out of order and it's not her. And I'm not letting her off the hook. I'm just doing my own personal work now.

Yeah.

Okay. So I see she's going to tell people and they're going to this and they're going to and and and she's this and she's that just my judgments about her. I'm going to experience I'm going to notice some guilt. Now guilt is the food. It is the food for addiction. It's where addiction is born. And so then I see like the chocolate ice cream. I mean, my ego's gone as far as it can and then boom, Boom, chocolate ice cream. I see it in my mind's eye. And then if you, you know, if I say the word apple, immediately you see an apple in your mind's eye. It's like I'm casting a spell on you.

Yeah.

Like banana, you saw it. I just cast words, cast spells.

Yes.

So I see that now, chocolate ice cream. I said I'd never do it again. I said I was only gonna have it once. I said it, No. Now, if you imagine biting into a big juicy lemon, right lemon right now, you feel the physical effects?

Yeah.

Physical. You did not eat a lemon. That's the power of mind.

Yes.

The power of what we call ego. So that's addiction. If I see the lemon and it causes that thing in me, literally it's so powerful it could raise blood sugar. I mean, it could do a lot of things. So, you know, that's why pills are so popular for stress. So, so I notice the cause of my suffering on every level, body, mind, spirit. Okay, so how do I react when I believe the thought, I see that I went into victim mode as I was standing there. It was not too much, but just a little.

Yeah.

Okay. Guilt.

Why does the guilt come from being a victim?

It argues with our true nature. And the proof of that is anything we think that is not understanding, kind, connected is a word I love, connected with the human race and everyone in it connected. It doesn't mean I'm gonna hang out with that person. It doesn't mean we're gonna have tea. It's just, I'm connected. I understand. I understand. If I were thinking and believing what that person was thinking and believing that murdered another person, how could I not?

Yeah.

How could I not? So this is not a little thing that.

That.

That we're inviting people to.

It.

It is, you know, that I can't even leave my bedroom into a person that. That loves people. I mean, that travels the world for. more than 30 years, that's not a little thing.

No. So what you're saying almost, Marryn, is that in your mind you made up a story or a narrative about what this person's actions meant.

But I can't claim I made up my mind. I can't claim I did it. Meaning, I didn't do it on purpose. It's the ego at work. I didn't do it on purpose.

So your higher self, when you say I, you mean your higher self didn't do it.

Well, it's like find a place where you believe, you said or did something that was, that you felt a little guilty over, you know, like a place where you, a little guilt. Okay, you find that place where you said what you said or you did what you did that caused a little guilt. something that you had hoped you wished you hadn't done. Okay, so you said what you said, you did what you did, and you felt guilt. Now get really still and identify what you were thinking and believing just before you said what you said or did what you did. and then tell me, did you have.

A choice in that moment to feel what you're feeling? I think it's automatic, right? We have automatic conditioning and patterning and beliefs that are sort of embedded in us. But what you're, what you're asking people to do is slow that down and start to look at the truth of it. And in this case, you're talking about your thread.

I have a choice. I mean, in that moment, you may.

Not have a choice to kind of not have that emotion, but then you can. kind of look at it and stop, which is what your work is about. It's about, okay, I had this experience now. And with this particular friend.

Yes. If I were thinking and believing, I've tested this many times. It's a way of life for me. If, if, when I consider what I'm thinking and believing, I can even justify the thing I said and did.

Of course.

Okay. And, and so why do I feel guilty about it? you know, even a little. So, and it's not right or wrong. We're just looking at how we react when we believe a thought.

Yeah, well, that's a huge thing. And I think a lot of the times we have beliefs that create the thoughts that lead us to interpret something as bad or in a way that causes us suffer. Right. So you interpreted your friend behavior. as somebody who didn't care about you, wasn't interested in you, maybe had negative thoughts about you, but you don't really know what was going on with that person. They could have been late to go visit their mother in the hospital who was dying, or they could have been stressed about blah, blah, blah. And you take that on as your own thing. And so I think we, you know, I had a friend once who said to me, Stop looking for ways to be offended, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love that. Or my mother used to say to me, you know, when you're driving the car and someone honks, what makes it, what makes you think that's for you?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When a police car goes by, you're like, oh, you know, Phil. Hey everyone, it's Dr. Mark. I don't think there's anything better than.

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That is a very powerful concept in your work that I think is worth unpacking because most of us are so attached to our thinking and our thoughts and our beliefs that we don't have a space between those thoughts and beliefs and our interpretation of those. And we think that's reality.

Right?

That's why your question, is it true is so important. Is it true? Yeah, that's the first question, right? Is it really true that she hates you or doesn't care about you or that she's gonna go say bad stuff about you or...? No, right? And I think that's really a powerful insight.

It is, it brings us back to some sanity. Just the question, is it true? The other three questions and turnarounds aren't even necessary if a person just said, is it through? Is it true? All of it would meet that question of a person got really still. Is it true? You'd be shown how you react when you believe the thought, what you said, what you did, how it felt. And the answer would reveal itself. And yes or no, when I ask myself, Is it true? She doesn't care about me. for example, I get still in that. And to find there's only one syllable to answer the question, is it true? It's either yes or no. And they're both equal because let's put it here with me. I'm only looking for my authentic answer. And so that may take a while. But I can't answer what other people, how the world world would answer it. Like the whole world could say, she doesn't care about you, but I'm dealing with me. I've got to know she doesn't care about me. Is it true? And then, you know, it's a beautiful thing, Martin, because when these things are worked through, I can just, it's nothing to pick up the phone and say, you know, as we were standing on the corner and, you know, I had the thought that you didn't care about me. Do you? And was I missing something? And that's not exactly a great situation too. But anyway, we're free. We can do our work and call and test it. And if she says, I didn't care about you and tells me why, then there is something I can do about me that I was blind to. He opens me up to so people grow me in the world. But we're too fearful to even call and ask. We just assume and then we feel bad, feel guilty, and then we maybe eat the ice cream or take the drug or the pill or snap at someone that we love completely and then we're guilty over that.

It's so your work really is focusing on this Simple idea that that suffering, like our own emotional, mental, spiritual suffering, really is inside of our minds and is not real. And it's a story we tell ourselves that we torture ourselves with. And that there is a way to be free of those thoughts that make us suffer. And that's really what your work is about.

And waking up to, to what is real and what is not. What's the revolution?

How do you get people there? I mean, the four questions and the turnaround is really the simple process, right? It seems so simple, but it really is very powerful. Maybe you can take us through what those four questions are again and what the turnaround is and how people can use this process to really get free.

Okay, so the first question is, is it true? She doesn't care about me. Okay, is it true? Can I absolutely know that it's true? And I'm going to meditate in that. And I'm going to be there in that time and place anchored there. And then how do I react in that situation when I believe the thought she doesn't care about me? I get really still. My eyes are closed. I'm meditating in that situation. I can see my body language. I see clearly my attitude. I'm in touch with the emotional I felt. I'm not just pretending it didn't happen. I'm present here now, seeing now what I saw then that I couldn't see then. I'm present. Then the fourth question in that situation, standing on the corner with her. Fourth question, who would I be without the thought she doesn't care about me? So to test that, I'm going to get still, drop my story, and listen to her words. In other words, I'm not going to put meaning on it. I'm dropping my story, listen to her words, see her expression, her body language, So I'm seeing her without my story. Okay? So who would I be without the thought? Learning a lot, learning a lot, Mark.

About yourself.

I'm connected. I'm connected. And it's never too late because the next time I see her, I'm connected. I'm not seeing who I believed her to be in the original situation. I'm seeing her. as from an awakened mind, from a more awake mind, the compassion is there and I'm not trying, I'm connected. In that case, self-compassion, unless I said or did something. Okay, so then the last part of the work is to sliver, to turn it around. And so she doesn't care about me. turned around. She does care about me. Now, I'm not going to just believe that I'm meditating in the situation. She does care about me. Now what you said earlier may show up for me. I may see that she was in a hurry, that she said something to tip me off, that she needed. Who knows what's going to show up, but I'm not going to make nice with it. I'm going to be there now. I'm going to be then now. And she does care about me. Let's see, she does care about me. She did stop to talk to me. I mean, I'm going to see a lot as I witness that in the silence from here. And then another turnaround, she doesn't care about me. Another turnaround, I don't care about her. No, okay. In that situation, where was I uncaring? And so...

Doing it yourself.

And this work takes so much courage, Mark. Where was I uncaring? What did I say or do? Did I give her the look? Did I look like bothered? Did I... anything? Okay, now let's say I said something rude. It just came out of my mouth, which happens as a believer. She doesn't care about me. for example. Okay, so now the next time I see her, I might call her and I might say, you know, when we met on the corner, it looked to me like you were in a hurry and I'm sorry if I held you up. And, you know, I was a bit rude and I'm sorry for that. And, and you get to clean things.

Up if you made a mess? I do.

And then I get to make it right. I don't do it with the next person. Maybe I'm a little more patient with the next person. And so these turnarounds, we're not trading one belief for another. We're meditating in the, you know, the possibility of.

The person purpose of the turnaround is to kind of like look at other ways of looking at the same situation from a different perspective and trying it on and seeing if it's true or not true how it feels. And you're not necessarily saying it is true, but you're saying, you know, I don't care about me, but maybe that's true. And then you start to look at that.

Well, you know, I look at, I don't care about her. And then I sit in that and see, as I said earlier, anything that I I said or did that would lead anyone to believe that I didn't care about them. And then there's another turnaround on, I don't care about me. And in, She doesn't care about me, turned around, I don't care about me. So where is it that I was disrespectful of myself? That I didn't give it time? that I interrupted her. I was in a hurry. I was the one that pulled away. She didn't. And it shifts every relationship we've got because our identity is shifting every time we sit in inquiry. You know, you talked about the Buddhas' Four Noble Truths that that fourth one, I mean, the third one, there is a way out of suffering, right?

Yeah.

There's a way out of suffering. But he didn't, it's like years of Buddhism for some people.

Yeah.

And some get it right away, you know, all. But here's how inquiry is How? And so, and what was the fourth noble truth, I guess, you know, the end of suffering. And for me, for me, anything I say or do that I experience as in you or in me, you know, could use a little work. because the people in my world, if I don't respect them and feel connected to my world and my planet, the gifts of nature, each other, then I have to look to myself. Because until I do, there's not a lot of peace. And when we're not at peace, we hurt other people. And then the cycle just continues. We feel guilty over that. And we can justify the ego is so good at that.

So the work is really a way to get free from self-destructive beliefs and thoughts that cause suffering and allow you to have a different way to navigate your relationships, your work, your experience that's sort of liberating, right? I mean, it seems like it seems so simple, but it's so powerful. And I think that we often spend years in therapy and years, you know, working on ourselves. and, and this seems like a shortcut that short circuits a lot of that.

It is.

And it's, you know, kind of common ways we think about change.

Yeah, it just, it's, it's, it's, it has everything to do with health. Because when we, when we, when we, like ourselves, our child, oh, boy, are the decisions we make in life different?

Yeah.

Oh my God, sanity is a great gift and we can, no one can make me sane. I'm the only one, I'm the only one that could give me that. And it's a practice, it's a practice in stillness and it takes a lot of courage, as I said earlier.

But the end result is what? The end result is...

The end result is I'm 78 years old and I'm healthier than I was. I have less pain than when I was a teenager. I don't know how long it's gonna last, Mark, but the choices I make make sense and no one taught me. What I eat, my exercise, there's no voice in my head that says, I'll do it later, you know, I'll double up tomorrow, or I'll eat it and I'll make, you know, there's no ego in my head that would argue with right doing.

Where did it go? Where did the ego go?

The ego Through inquiry, the ego sees that I don't oppose it to question it gives it fair play. So the ego says, She doesn't care about me, and it's met with, Is it true? So it gives the ego a chance to just Where do I go from here? What do I go from here? And you're just meditating, is it true? And then let's say wisdom, true nature, are innate. Just sanity, let's say, just use that word, meets the question, is it true? And the ego in this process begins to rest in that I call the heart, sanity, compassion, understanding, right-mindedness. And so there is not all this pain in this 78 year old body that I experienced in my early 40s, living in a bedroom with with everything to live for. Children, beautiful home.

What you're saying essentially is that through this practice, you've been able to access a healing force in your body that is not just mental, but actually physical.

It's just waiting for an invitation. It doesn't move. Mark, it never moves. It's not going away. this wisdom, this love. It's not going away.

So is it really the work and access point to love? Is that what you're saying?

Yes. And love is, you know, we each have our own definition of what that means. But for me, it's balance in all things.

So one of the things I want to ask you is, you know, a lot of us, and I've been going through this lately because With COVID everything kind of blew up. My normal work life blew up, how I see patients blew up, my own time structures all changed and also went through a period of changing my personal life through a divorce. And I'm okay from it, but it left me with a very uncertain future. Where do I live? Who will I be with or will I be with someone? what am I going to focus on in my work? And so the future takes on this looming presence of uncertainty and potentially fear. And I found myself feeling a little bit anxious about what now. And I've been really working with this process that you're talking about and sort of re-examining my beliefs and my thoughts about the fear of the future and where that's coming from and how to let go of that and actually shifted to a level of trust and a level of curiosity and a level of comfort and the possibilities that are ahead without having to know anything. So how do we get to that? I mean, I've been working on it, but I don't know if I'm quite there. But I'd love to hear your perspective on how we not allow the future to affect our present.

For me, it would be to.

To.

Fill in that worksheet, you know, answer the six questions there with, like, if I fear something in the future, which can only be in the future, fear is what we're thinking about a future and guilt and shame is the story of the past running through us. But fear of the future, I would look at what I'm fearing, Mark. and I would fill in, I would answer those six questions on the Judge & Neighbor worksheet, and then I'd question them. And what would I question, the situation that I fear? Like put yourself in that situation, you fear, and identify what you're thinking and believing as you're experiencing that fear. Put that on the worksheet and question it. It will blow your beautiful mind.

But the Judge your Neighbor Worksheet seems to be about somebody else, right? Or can you just be about your own thoughts about your own life and future, without references to somebody else?

What's an example of a fear?

That, you know, I won't, I won't really find a place that I want to live in where it feels right to me. I'm sort of be just be sort of nomadic and not really find my home and community.

Okay.

So.

I won't find a place. I want to live. I won't find my community. So for example, I would imagine myself to fill in the worksheet, answer those six questions. I would imagine myself in a place I don't want to live. And then I won't find my community. I would imagine myself in a community I don't want to live with.

Yeah.

And I would question everything I'm thinking and believing about that until I'm at home, wherever I am and with people in this world without exception. that I feel connected with, which for me is community.

Yeah.

My world, the world, as you understand it to be.

Yeah, so this worksheet, people can just go Google, judge your neighbor worksheet, and you can find it. And it's really a simple, very simple, almost like filling the blanks in this situation.

Questions, yeah.

Who angers, confuses, hurts, saddens, or disappoints you and why?

So.

And it gives you an example of how to do it. It's very simple. It's very practical. And for people who are struggling with relationships or their work or beliefs or themselves or the relationship with themselves or their health, I mean, it's a really a simple process that I encourage people to do. And it's free.

So, yeah, it's free. And all the instructions are there. There's a, a thing posted there, and it's, I call it the one, two, three. So you fill in the that you answer the six questions on the worksheet and then you take like number one and what you responded to number one and for example, and then you move just that one concept over to the one belief at a time worksheet, which that's one, two, three, that's number two. And just answer the questions there. It's pure inquiry. It's the four questions and turnarounds literally. that's all. And so then to do that is to sit in the practice of the work.

There is one Belief at a Time worksheet, which is essentially a written meditation. Look at your beliefs and how you react and how do you change it and turn it around. And who would you be without that thought? That's a beautiful one. Who would you be without that thought that I'm not loved, that I am not good or I'm not good enough. Whatever the thoughts we have about ourselves, it's a really...

It's like my life minus that. The cause of our suffering is what we're thinking and believing in any given situation. And that's not something... That just sounds too simple to believe. I'll just throw this out there because here we are. All fears either remembered or anticipated. It never happens in the moment.

Yeah.

Life is remembered or anticipated. That's all.

Remembered or anticipated. Is it experienced in the moment?

All physical pain is either remembered or anticipated.

What if someone's stepping on your foot? That's happening in the moment.

What if someone is stepping on your foot? Okay. Someone steps on my foot. I am remembering. Okay. Right now he stepped on my foot. I'm remembering it even though his foot is still on my foot. And I'm anticipating that. That he. That I would feel less pain if his foot was off of it. anticipating when you sit in it, you can see the images and his foot is still on my foot. And our time together is showing me that you can do this. You have the gift of stillness and presence. You've got some Buddhist practice in you. It's just Oh, and then I work with people at this at home with Byron Katie three days a week. I work with someone, every one of those who everyone can sit in this practice. And it is a practice. And it's so simple, people find it difficult. But you know, Mark, sound is either remembered or anticipated. you've heard life is an illusion and you said in that practice it's not a theory.

It's no.

And so this practice breaks down in real time and solves it gives us it's like on the on number, oh my gosh, let's say, you know, I prefer your questions. I could, you know, I could go on and on.

I want to ask you, I want to ask you about something you said, which is that, that we all have a key to our own happiness, but we never look to ourselves for that happiness, whatever we want, whatever we think another person needs to do, maybe we need to do. and it sort of, yeah, number, we always are looking outside of ourselves to blame what's happening around us for our happiness or suffering, whether, you know, and I think we externalize happiness, but we also externalize suffering. And I think what you're seeing is that neither of them are external. They're coming from within us. Oh, yeah. It's almost like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. She always had the power to go home with three clicks of her ruby red slippers. Yeah. But she didn't know that. And you're saying, hey, you're reminding us that this is true. So how is this true? And how do we get to this ability to sort of source our own happiness and freedom from inside rather than looking outside of ourselves?

Okay. So as I'm talking to you, Stephen, my husband, is in the kitchen.

I love him, by the way. I read a lot of his translations of ancient texts. He is. He's an icon. Because I majored in Asian studies, so I was always really tuned into Asian work.

He's an amazing being to live with. Oh my gosh. We've been married like, oh gosh, more than 20 years or something. So he's in the kitchen, I'm telling you. Where's my proof? Here. I'm in a room. the door is shut. I'm imagining him in the kitchen. So I tell you with all certainty, oh, yeah, Stephen, he's in the kitchen. Okay, he could be out in the yard. He could have gone to the store. To the, I have, it's, so here, to answer your question, it would be, It would be, you know, where's Stephen? I can say he's in the kitchen, but I'm awake too. Is it true? My only proof is I see an image in my head of the kitchen. I see an image of Stephen in that kitchen. And if you say, is Stephen in the kitchen? I could say, yeah. and believe it.

Yeah.

Because my mind's not open to, is it true? And this is not a huge big deal, except we do it with everything.

Yeah.

He's in the kitchen. Here's another thing. Let's say in the morning, like, let's say we had a terrible argument. I can imagine Stephen arguing, but this terrible argument last night. So this morning, let me tell you, Mark, he came in this morning and he said, Good morning, honey. Like nothing happened. And I gave him the look. He knows what he said. I give him the look and I don't answer him. And he knows why and he should be sorry. Okay? I'm punishing The wrong man, the man in my head, that is not Stephen, that's pure imagination. So I am under the spell, you know, it's words cast spells, I'm under the spell, I see, but I'm awake to the illusion. He comes in, he says, Good morning, honey, and I say, Good morning, honey, because I know what man I'm dealing with.

With.

Why would I punish my husband.

For.

Out of my pure imagination and then argue that I'm right? See how crazy that is?

It is crazy. We do it all the time.

And then how do I react when I believe the thought, you know, he owes me. He needs to make this right. And when he doesn't, you know, this guy I'm married to, he's not what I thought he was. that's crazy.

Yeah.

So I. I. When I'm. This work has allowed me to love the one I'm with. In other words, to be connected and to listen and to be sane and to love. To love my mind is to love. the world.

Yeah, you know, what once a friend said to me, you can either be right or in relationship. And, you know, I think, I think your work really, it teaches us how we all have this addiction to being right. So how does the, the work that you do shift us in our need to be right?

Well, you know, just, I'm, I.

I.

Can'T be right when other people have their right. There are a lot of rights in the world as we see it. So how can I argue with another person's right if it comes up against mine as a contradiction? We're believers. This is Earth School. We're believers. We're here to wake up to our true nature. and every time we do the work, we come out as kinder, more understanding human beings. And I don't call it the work for nothing. It takes a lot of courage to look to one's self.

You don't call it the party, right? You call it the work.

Oh boy, yeah.

It.

Takes a very open mind, but we don't have to, wait until we're suffering, anyone can have a better life.

I mean, that's the gift that you're giving people. It's just the understanding that a lot of our suffering comes from our own minds, that it's based on our beliefs, our interpretation of reality, that often what we think is true isn't true, and that there's a way to flip it around in our minds so that we actually can be in the right relationship to what's happening and actually get back to our state of love and happiness and connectedness. And it's such a gift, Byron. You know, I think Eckhart Tolle said, that he read in your book and he said, this is a great blessing for our planet and your work is a great blessing. It acts like a razor-sharp sword that cuts through the Illusions and enables you to know yourself for the Timeless, for yourself, the Timeless essence of your being. And he, he says your book, loving what is, is really the key to knowing your natural state, which is joy, peace and love. And I experienced that from you. I mean, that's when I see you and I talk to you, it's like I get this big hit of joy, peace and love. which is what we're all seeking. And yet, you know, what you're offering people is a doorway into that natural state. How do we unravel all the things that keep us away from our natural state and get back into it?

Identify what we're thinking and believing and write it down, move it from our head to paper. That way, what we're thinking, when we write it down, it's stable, it's stopped. Because if I say, is it true in my head, my ego could win out. Yeah. So I just get what I'm thinking and believing about you, about the world, about life, and move it from my head to paper, and it stopped right there on that judge your neighbor worksheet. And now I can question it. I can anchor in the situation that as I was believing it to be and question it. And maybe it's true, maybe it's not. But then when I get to how do I react when I believe the thought, I get to see the cause of my suffering.

Yeah.

And then when I turn it around, it makes more sense. And it's, it's, it sticks.

Yeah.

And you've helped so many people work through really challenging emotions and beliefs and it works pretty quickly. What are the kind of things you've seen happen to people? Are there any short stories you can share about people who have been able to get out of the sort of the suffering state they're in or the challenging situations using the work?

You know, that's an odd question.

You work with people all the time and you see this every day in your work.

I do all the all the time. All the time. All the time. I mean, this is through my email, through my just incredible testimonials. Just, you know, sometimes we don't even, there are things that we want to publish, we don't even publish because it's not believable. It's, it's, it's, it's, I can say just radical turnarounds. And it's not that, you know what matters to me is kinder mothers and fathers, more understanding, more understanding in the workplace, kinder, you know, out of a question mind, the stuff we see on the internet around winning losing, you know, just, just, and then we meet someone that's, that's, that's patient and, and coming out, you know, speaking out of an, out of an authentic, from an authentic place. We trust that it doesn't create great, great headlines. But it shows us a piece of ourselves that we already know. It's like a home place.

And.

This work, you know, when we question and turn around, it literally shows us how to live. Like, people should be kind, you know, that's like on the judge and neighbor worksheet on question three. In that situation, he should be kind to me. He should be kinder to me. Is it true? And how do I react in that situation with him? When I believe the thought he should be kinder to me and he's not.

Yeah.

Then I witness how what I say, what I do, how I am, my body language, my expression.

Yeah.

And then who would I be without the thought he should be kinder to me? I began to listen. And more often than not, in fact, for me, it begins to make sense. I understand. Whereas I couldn't then as a Believer.

But.

But then who would I. Who would I be without it? And then when I turn around, he should be kinder to me in that situation, I should be kinder. And so I live that turnaround in my mind's eye. These living turnarounds on the worksheet will just shift life. So I close my eyes, I should be kinder to him. So I live that out in my mind's eye. And then I should be kinder to me. So as I meditate in that situation, I live that turnaround. I should be kinder to me in that situation. And I notice I'm quiet. I notice I don't interrupt him. And I was very interruptive. I notice living turnaround, I'm not interrupting. This is not a little, this is not a little thing.

Because it breaks the cycle of dynamic relationships.

And then I find myself being kinder to other people because I live the turnaround meditatively as I said in my work in that Judge youe Neighbor worksheet. That's the powerful part.

It's so powerful because I think what you're offering people is a way to look at their beliefs, look at their ideas and slow everything down and question your own thoughts and beliefs and your interpretations of reality that cause suffering in ways that most of us never learn how to do. I mean, we think what we think is true, that it's a fixed reality, and that what we interpret as reality with somebody else or something else in the world is just absolutely true.

And.

It'S that illusion that's caused the suffering. I mean, that is really what the Buddha talks about. Your work is sort of a modern spin on Buddhist thinking, which allows us to get access to things a lot faster than having to be meditating nine years in a cave, which I'm not ready to do, but maybe a week, nine years, I don't know.

That's not your idea of moving to a, that's not the neighborhood you're looking for.

No, definitely not.

The trick is to love where you are and it's very freeing, our choices.

Yeah.

I mean, this whole idea of it, that we are so entrapped in our minds that they are the source of our joy, but they're also the source of our suffering, is a super empowering message because it all of a sudden, it takes the power out of the world to affect you. Instead of you being at the effect of everything that's happening in your life, you're sourcing your own joy and happiness, and you're at the cause of of your life and you're designing your own experience and interpretation. And I remember when I was really young, I was picked on so much. I was a nerdy kid, you know, read a lot of books. You know, the nerds went out in the end. And I just was out backpacking out west and I had a group of people I'd met. I was camping with them in the woods. And I was like 18 years old and kind of goofy. And I think these guys are making fun of me and I just was, it was just so unbearable. And I had this momentary epiphany, which has stuck with me my whole life, which is that, you know, either, like what they're saying to me is their own movie, like it's their own interpretation of reality. And it may or may not be true. And I don't have to take it on. Or maybe there's something really juicy in there for me, a nugget of wisdom and reflection that even though it's in a package that feels crappy, may be something useful for me to look at in myself. So all of a sudden I went from being like really torn apart and just suffering so badly from all the sort of hostility that was coming at me through picking on me and making fun of me and whatever. that I was able to feel really empowered to go like, well, that's their story and I don't have to take it on and or there's something juicy in there for me to learn. And that really has stuck with me since I'm 18 and it's really changed my life because all of a sudden I'm not afraid of people's feedback or criticism or anything because I'm like, oh, this is, you know, this is their movie or yeah, this is something good. And it was really freeing. It was really freeing.

That is stunning.

I was like, I just happened.

I wasn't like planning it. And I, you know, that's, that's, that's it. And I had this other moment, which was similar to sort of what you had when you were maybe a little different. I was like, I was, I had a really, a really close friend, and he just, he's like a, just an adventurer and lover of life and spontaneous and. sort of dances to the beat of his own drummer and, you know, you just will be there, but the next minute he'll be gone and doing something and you don't even know where he went. We were camping out one night and this field and I woke up in the morning and he was just gone and he didn't say anything, he didn't even leave a note. I mean, there was no cell phones back then, so he couldn't text me, but he just disappeared and all of a sudden I felt all this suffering come up like, oh, he's off doing something fun. and my life isn't as valuable and what I'm going to do is not good. And he's just having the best time and I'm just stuck here by myself and I just went through this whole thing. And then again, I had this like epiphany where I was like, wait a minute, you know, everything that's happening in my life is equally as valuable and juicy and good and is the perfect thing for me to be experiencing right now. And I just don't have to worry about ever comparing myself to anybody else. in my life around what they're doing. And it was better than what I'm doing. And, you know, I just, it was a real breakthrough for me. I was like, I think I was 20 years old.

That is just such a gift.

Yeah.

That's like, that is some kind of grace. Because like you said, you didn't plan to know that or think that it's, it is, it is great.

Yeah. And it's really helped me to be free, more free. And I still get in suffering in many other ways. But in those areas where I think people often get stuck, which is comparing themselves to everybody else or feeling at the effect of people's judgments or criticisms or comments, like those are really big things. And for me, I felt kind of a relief about that. I mean, I have other issues I struggle with, but I think, you know, your work is really about helping people get to be good in themselves.

And, you know, we all deserve those epiphanies. and the work give those to us. And it's, yeah, it's an invitation. You know, we can have them on purpose and not have to wait for these moments of grace. I think to sit in inquiry is a state of grace where the ego's not talking us out of just sitting in ourselves. and a few moments, a few minutes a day.

I mean, what you're asking people to do is really quite extraordinary, quite simple, and so powerful, and yet most of us don't have a roadmap of how to get there. And that's why the simple tools that you share on your website, the work.com or the incredible tools you have, the Judge youe Neighbor worksheet, the One Believes Good Time worksheet that are free, people can go get them. are amazing and if people are listening and they want to know more about this work Byron has an incredible weekly process multiple days a week where she works with people in real time and you get to participate, watch, see and learn as you're experiencing that and you can just go to @home with BK.com that's @home with BK.com and it's happening every week so while you're home if you're still isolated from COVID or whatever, it's really worth getting a flavor of what the work is. Because we're talking a little bit in abstract, but when you get with working with people, you get to see actually how this unfolds and you get to have the insights about your own life. Also, Byron Katie has an incredible podcast called the Byron Katie podcast. So you can find that wherever you get your podcast, you can learn more about it at podcast.thework.com. and I'm just so, I'm just so happy that you were born, happy that you had your suffering and figured out a way out of suffering, and have been teaching that to millions of people for decades. It's just so critical. And, you know, honestly, I thought you were like 60. I didn't, couldn't even tell you were 78. And I'm like, you're just so vibrant, alive and clear. I'm like, wow, I want some of that. Whatever she's having, I want that.

Well, you. You've got all.

You.

Whatever it is, you've got a lot of it. Oh, boy, Mark, I'm so glad you're in the world and. Oh, you're. The difference you make, you're just out there. I just love it so much. I love it so much.

Thank you. Well, I feel the same about you.

You're out there in more ways than one. You and your mind is. so beautifully open.

Oh, thank you. Well, your, your work has really helped me personally, and I know it's helped my friends and family, and it's just such a, it's such a gift. And I encourage everybody who's suffering, which is pretty much every human out there, except a couple of enlightened monks, maybe in the cave in Tibet, but pretty.

Much everybody else definitely needs to get.

Like, come out of the cave. We need to. And definitely check out Byron Katie's books. They're just, just beautiful meditations on life and and happiness and joy and how we get free from suffering. And at the end of the day, I think, you know, the purpose of life that I figured out, and I'm 60, going to be 62. Finally, I think I figured out it's about freedom. It's, it's really Freedom, mental freedom, spiritual freedom, emotional freedom, physical freedom, which is all under our control. I mean, you know, and you, you think, oh, well, people are in horrible situations, and how do you do that? And, yeah, people are. People are in tough situations, but, you know, I just remember reading Viktor Frankl's book, Man's Search for Meaning, where he talked about his experience in Auschwitz in a concentration camp. And he realized that the only thing that the guards and the Nazis couldn't take from him was his mind. And he refused to be imprisoned, even though he was in prison. And it's just such a beautiful story about reminding us that no matter where we are, we're in, it's really our own interpretation and beliefs and our thoughts and our minds that determine our state of being. And it also reminds me of it. When I was 26, I went to Nepal on a medical expedition. And I met this guy who was a Tibetan doctor. He was very interested in Tibetan medicine. I went to hang out with him and get a translator. And this guy's been 22 years. He sort of escaped from Tibet after 22 years in a Chinese gulag where he was tortured almost every day.

Oh, my.

And I said to him, I said to him, what was the most difficult part about all of that? And what he said shocked me and humbled me and kind of blew me away. He said, the hardest part were the moments where I felt like I might lose compassion for my Chinese jailers. I'm like, wow, okay, I'm far from that. But, you know, that, that just If that's true, if a human being can achieve that state, whether it's the Viktor Frankl in a concentration camp or a Tibetan doctor in a Chinese gulag, all of us can become free.

That's what you're offering the gift. As you were telling that of the torture and the hardest part for him, that question, I projected you were going to say it would be like they're torturing me and my mind might think, I hope they don't do this to them. I hope they don't continue doing this to them. Because your mind is free. It's not about you anymore. It's about the apparent perpetrator. And he's doing that to him, meaning he's stuck in that state of mind that he would go against himself whether he's aware of it or not. There is, we can't shift our nature and our nature is you know, we have words for it: loving, caring, compassionate, but what the ego would think and what we're thinking and believing would confuse us about that. So I know a man said he was going to kill me at one point, and it was late at night, maybe 2:00 a.m. in the morning, I don't recall, but the moon was out in the clouds. It was beautiful. And evidently, I was in his space and in the dark. It was in the desert by the river and frightened him. But he said he was going to kill me. And my thought was, I hope he doesn't do that to him. And he actually had a gun and pulled the hammer back and And I could see the moon and the sky and the fear in his eyes and the compassion and heard the river and the beautiful desert. I mean, who would want to miss the last few moments of their life? And that's what we do when we're in the past and future. We miss our life. We miss our life.

Oh, wow. That, that what you just said is the perfect, the perfect summary of everything, which is we miss our lives because we're living in the past or the future where the suffering exists and we're missing the magic and beauty of the moment, which is always ready for us. And that is like, whoa, that is so good. That is so good.

Well, who and what we are, huh?

Thank you so much Byron for being on the Doctor's Pharmacy. This has been the best conversation and everybody's got to check out your work. Please again go find out more about Byron Katie. Download the Judge youe Neighbor worksheet, download the One Belief at a Time worksheet. Make sure you check out her work which you can view every week and be part of and you can even be the one she's working with at home with bk.com and check out her podcast or books. She's just a national, I don't know, national, maybe a global treasure. So, Katie, thank you so much for being you. I hope I get to see you in person sometime soon.

Mark, let's do that. I love you dearly and your work in the world. Oh, boy. Thank you, my friend. So much fun.

Thank you. And if you've been listening to this podcast and you know anybody who's suffering, they'll make them listen to it. It should be about seven and a half billion people. And subscribe wherever you get your podcast, share how you've worked through your own beliefs and thoughts and maybe use the work to help you get free. And we'd love to hear that. And subscribe wherever you get your podcast and we'll see you next week on the Doctor's Pharmacy.

Hey everybody, it's Dr. Hyman. Thanks for tuning into the Doctor's Pharmacy. I hope you're loving this podcast. It's one of my favorite things to do and introducing you all the experts that I know and I love and that I've learned so much from. And I want to tell you about something else I'm doing, which is called Mark's Picks. It's my weekly newsletter. And in it, I share my favorite stuff from foods to supplements to gadgets to tools to enhance your health. It's all the cool stuff that I use and that my team uses to optimize and enhance our health. And I'd love you to sign up for the weekly newsletter, I'll only send it to you once a week on Fridays. Nothing else, I promise. And all you have to do is go to drhyman.com/picks to sign up. That's drhyman.com/picks, P-I-C-K-S, and sign up for the newsletter and I'll share with you my favorite stuff that I use to enhance my health and get healthier and better and live younger longer.

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