What Foods Should You Eat And Supplements Should You Take To Age Well? with Dr. Michael Murray

Coming up on this episode of the Doctor's Pharmacy.

If you're looking at wanting to live longer, you've got to have plenty of energy. So you have to ask the question, well, how do I make sure my energy producing machinery is working properly? Hi everyone, it's Dr. Mark.

I was a functional medicine doctor looking at hormones, organic acids, nutrient levels, inflammatory factors, gut bacteria, and so many other other internal variables, it helps me find the most effective path to health and healing for my patients. But such extensive testing can be very complicated and time consuming for both the practitioner, somebody like me, and our patients. But lab ordering became very quick and painless since I started using Rupa Health. I can order, track, and get results from over 35 different lab companies within a few clicks in one lab portal. And this means one invoice for all labs paid online upfront. Plus, patients get practitioner pricing and receive full patient support through easier personalized collection instructions, automated follow up super bills and answers to testing questions and so much more. And best of all, it's free for practitioners. So sign up free today. You can find out more information by going to RupaHealth.com that's R-U-P-A-Health.com In a completely natural environment, your body's internal clock would normally be dialed in. But in the 21st century world we live in today, there are many things that can throw your rhythms off balance. things like excessive screen time and environmental stressors can contribute to knocking your circadian rhythms out of whack. And this results in many of us dealing with sleep issues and not quite knowing where to turn. I've worked so hard to optimize my own sleep, and one of the most important tools in my sleep toolbox is Sleep Breakthrough by BiOptimizers. Sleep Breakthrough is a fully optimized, delicious sleep drink designed to help you fall asleep in minutes, experience deep, high quality sleep, and wake up feeling refreshed and energized. And because it's melatonin free, unlike most other over-the-counter sleep aids, your body won't down regulate melatonin production or become dependent on a pill or a gummy to get to sleep. Right now, BiOptimizers is offering my listeners 10% off sleep breakthrough. And if you buy two or more, you'll get a free bottle of magnesium breakthrough. This is a limited time offer, so go to sleepbreakthrough.com/hymen and use the code Hymen10. And now let's get back to this week's episode of the Doctor's Pharmacy. Welcome to the Doctor's Pharmacy. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman. That's Pharmacy with an F-A-Place for Conversations that Matter. and if you're interested in the field of longevity, as I am, then this will be an interesting conversation because it's with one of my mentors, someone I've learned so much from over the years, who's an icon in the field of natural medicine and functional medicine, Dr. Michael Murray. He's a naturopath and has written the textbook of natural medicine, which I used a lot as I was trying to navigate a world outside of my traditional training in conventional medicine. He's one of the world's leading authorities on natural medicine. He's written so many important books on this. He's a graduate of Bastyr University. His textbook, the Textbook of Natural Medicine, which he co-authored with my good friend Joe Pizzorno, is such a seminal work in laying out the science and the methodology of how to apply both lifestyle and other natural therapies to help us heal from chronic disease in ways that really we haven't been able to be able to do before. He's written over 30 books, including the Encyclopedia of Natural Medicine, which is really a very consumer facing version of the textbook of natural medicine. He's written the Longevity Matrix, which we're going to talk about today. And since 1985, he's been instrumental in bringing lots of really important and safe natural products to North America, including glucosamine, ginkgo, PGX, and lots more. Dr. Murray says one of the greatest myths about natural medicine is that it's not scientific. The fact of the matter is that for most common illnesses, there is tremendous support in the medical literature for a more natural approach. And that's what we're going to talk about today. Welcome, Michael.

It's a pleasure, Mark.

So, you know, I just finished writing my book, Young Forever, about longevity. And it was very clear to me that as I came upon the science of the things that are really working to both make us healthier and live longer, that they harken back to the principles of natural medicine. mystic, which is activating the body's own innate healing systems, its own innate healing mechanisms that are embedded in our biology, that are designed to keep us alive and well throughout our lives, but that get honestly trashed by our modern lifestyle.

Right.

And so I want to dig into your approach as someone who's really an expert in this around the things that you discovered as you were writing your book, the Longevity Matrix, and the kinds of things that you found to be most effective, what were the most important strategies from a diet and lifestyle perspective, and then maybe some other things. So we can get into some of the details. But I want to know what is the thing that you kind of were like aha to you that were so powerful?

I'm really looking forward to this conversation, Mark, because I know that we have many parallel experiences and In my book, what I focused on first was a couple of basic things, because I look at what is effective in helping people not only live longer, but have a higher quality of life. What I discovered years ago, one of my big aha moments was I was reading a Sports Illustrated article about Stan Musial, and this is one of the most beloved sports heroes of all time. and he was famous for acknowledging people and showing appreciation. And I realized that the people that I knew who were long lived, that's a polite way of saying, whom I respected, loved, and appreciated, they all had one common feature. They had many different personalities, different routes in their lives, but they shared a common feature, and that was they had an ease to expressing appreciation, and they lived in a state of grace. Cicero said that gratitude is not only the greatest virtue, but the mother of all others. I started looking at the science of gratitude, and there's a whole field of psychology that's just rich of wonderful discoveries. It's positive psychology. our lives are supposed to be full of such a range of emotions. And the ones that we need to feel more of, they really start with gratitude. But I look at all the emotions that I truly love experiencing: awe, wonder, excitement, enthusiasm, inspiration. And all of these fuel a life worth living and really fuel us to want to live longer. so that was one of my big aha moments. And I'm curious about yours.

Yeah, so that's interesting. So it's not about like what you eat or exercise or any of that. It's not about the right supplements. It's about your mindset and how you see the world and how you feel about your life and whether you're grateful or resentful, whether you live in a state of joy and connection or whether you live in a state of regret and hurt and victimhood. And I think there's a real phenomena that is biological that gets translated through our thoughts and our feelings. So whatever is going on in your life, whether you're a prisoner in Robben Island like Nelson Mandela for decades, but somehow he managed to keep his sense of humanity and his kindness and his wisdom. I mean, that, you think our lives suck. Well, imagine being on Robben Island in South Africa and apartheid and how he survived that. I was just down there, so it kind of reminded me of of that when I was in Cape Town and I was like, wow, it's really so much about what goes on up here that determines what goes on in the rest of our body.

Yeah, and here too. And I want to make an observation that I've had about you known to all your viewers and listeners, and they probably noticed this as well. The longest study in history is the Harvard Men Study, and they looked at men, I think the study started in the 1920s, they looked at men in different socioeconomic levels and what they found was following these men over the course of their lifetime, the biggest impact on determining health and longevity and happiness and the quality of their lives was the quality of their relationships and their ability to make connections. My observation about you, Mark Hyman, is you are gifted in in that area. I really know no one better in making heartfelt, meaningful connections. And I know you have great connections in your life. And I know that has to be a big aha moment for you because I've known you a while and I just want to congratulate you.

Thank you. Thank you. It is actually part of the secret of my success is like, you know, it's actually valuing and spending time an energy on keeping, maintaining, developing beautiful relationships across both, you know, personal and professional categories. So I think you're right. It's, it's really a key part of longevity, which is feeling connected and feeling a sense of belonging and meaning and purpose. I think all that is so true. I want to kind of dig into some of the more practical things that people also want to talk about, which are what the heck should we be eating for longevity? I mean, when you look at the longevity field, you hear everything from you should be a complete vegan because animal protein will kill you and will drive mTOR and cause an early death or people who are saying, no, you actually need a lot of animal protein to build muscle and to live a long time. So, you know, should you be keto? Should you be vegan? Should you be paleo? Should you like what the heck is a longevity diet that you've come up with that makes sense, that incorporates all the scientific research that we do know about how our bodies work and how we age. So we kind of get out of these ideological wars and come up with what actually is scientifically prudent and sensible and makes sense.

Yeah, that's very practical. I take a very pragmatic approach and we develop philosophies that sometimes are convenient, but for me, it's been a lifetime of discovery and I've gone through different phases of my life. When I first got into health and nutrition, I was a strict vegan for six years. then I started eating fish and then, you know, now my diet is, you know, I would say I eat very clean. I don't eat any processed foods per se. But one of the dietary principles that I had a thought when I was taking physics and looking through a prism and seeing a beautiful rainbow and the rainbow diets kind of gotten very popular these days, but I had this back in the 70s and the idea is that we should be taking advantage of all these different plant pigments in our diet. And I have a love affair with a particular type of plant pigments, flavonoids. There are over 8,000 different flavonoids in nature. And as a class of compounds, flavonoids are referred to as nature's biological response modifiers. And let me define what that term means. It means that these plant compounds, these pigmEnts can help modify our response to environmental issues and things that are going on in our body. And this is demonstrated by their antioxidant, antiviral, anticancer, anti-inflammatory effects, and many, many more. And flavonoids are the key components in many foods and medicinal herbs that are responsible for their medicinal effects. So I have made a very strong commitment for over 45 years now of eating a diet really rich in flavonoids and taking a lot of supplements. And by the way, this is a sample of what I take every day. I take a lot of- For those.

Of you who can't see it on audio, it's a big little baggie full of stuff, probably 30 or 40 pills in there.

Yeah, exactly. On my website, people always ask me, what do you take? What do you take? so I put it on my website, drmarie.com, all the supplements I take and why. And if you look at that supplement list, it focuses a lot on plant flavonoids. And then on my website, I also have an article that I wrote on how to measure your flavonoid intake, how to have a target of what you ideally should reach. how to get there through dietary choices and supplements. So I am a big fan of Flavonoids. And the great thing is they are readily available in food. Everyone thinks of blueberries, but red kidney beans actually have higher antioxidant activity, higher flavonoid content than the blueberries. Dark chocolate is a good choice. Raw cacao powder is better. So there's just a lot of secret ways that I've found to really boost my flavonoid intake. No matter what diet that you follow, I think you have to take advantage of these beautiful gifts from nature. The way they work in our body is truly a miracle because these are highly active compounds. So nature has built in a way that we can ingest them and they circulate in our blood bound to various compounds like glucuronic acid or sulfur. And what's interesting is they are liberated from those conjugating agents or the compounds they are bound to in areas of need. So it really explains how they can be so pharmacologically active but very safe because nature has built in a safety profile for them. And so, I like to flood my system with these flavonoids to make sure that they're there when my cells need them.

Yeah, that's very interesting. I sort of want to talk about something that's in the field right now, which I don't agree with, but is certainly getting attention, is that plants have these antinutrients, that the phytochemicals in plants are actually poisons, and that we shouldn't be eating them, and that the whole carnivore extreme version of eating, which is basically just eating meat or animal protein, suggests that these plant compounds are actually harmful. That all these phytochemicals are the plant's defense mechanisms. They're their own poisons, per se. They're pesticides, they're herbicides, they're the things that repel various predators. And we're consuming these. How are they good for us if they're the plant's defense mechanisms that may be poisons? and is flooding your system actually the right thing? Or is there a particular dose that matters versus just having a huge amount of, let's say, green tea extract or grape seed extract or something, you know, floating around your blood?

These phytonutrients or phytochemicals are really interesting the way they work in our body. And sometimes we get lost in the direct effect, but the fact that they're able to influence the expression of certain genes and the overall impact on our cells. It's pretty hard to argue against them. They really are conductors of a beautiful orchestra that's designed to keep us healthy. And I think if we don't consume a diet rich in these foods, we're really doing a disservice. That's not to say that we can't see temporary benefits from following even extreme diets. But I think when you look at what our body needs, it's clear to me that we're meant really designed to be omnivores. We're not designed to be carnivores. We're not designed to be vegan. We're designed to take advantage of both animal foods and plant foods. there's certain foods that I think promote health more than others. And I think fruits and vegetables, legumes, I think most people are kind of getting away from grains. I do think they have their place, but not so much processed grains. I think we definitely would need to get away from ultra processed foods, right? That's what the research keeps showing over and over and over. there's a wide berth of what our bodies can consume and be relatively healthy. And likewise, there are a narrow range of foods that we can eat to make us achieve our optimal level of health. And, you know, I think both of us are kind of living proof of that. You know, we're not separated that much by by by age. I'm a bit a bit older than you, but like you, I plan to be forever young. If not in body, at least in spirit and attitude. Totally.

It's so true. I think, well, for sure it's also possibly be healthy in body, too. I think that's the whole point of this. Hey, everyone, it's Dr. Mark here. I've been tracking my glucose with the help of levels for several years now, and it's become a crucial part of optimizing my health and my diet. One of the keys to an optimized diet is monitoring your glucose intake, otherwise known as sugar. Poor glucose control is tied to all kinds of issues like weight gain, fatigue, diabetes, Alzheimer's, heart disease, and stroke. But it can be hard to know exactly how much glucose you're getting in your diet. That's where levels comes in. They show you how food affects your health in real time through continuous glucose monitors. In fact, I remember I was eating out with a friend once, and although we ordered a really healthy meal, I way over ate. And when I checked my blood sugar levels, they were off the charts high. So that's when I learned the importance of monitoring my food intake and not going overboard, something I would have known without Levels help. And right now you can join Levels and receive an additional two months free on your annual membership when you order at levels.link/hyman. That's levels L-E-B-E-L-S dot link L-I-N-K hyman. Your first purchase will include a one month supply of continuous glucose monitors and a 12 month software membership. And again, if you go to levels.link/hyman, Levels is offering an additional two months of their annual membership free. Your home's indoor air could be up to 100 times more polluted than outdoor air. Toxic particles exist in cleaning products, house paint, stoves, air fresheners, and even furniture. In addition, there are other harmful contaminants floating inside your home environment, such as bacteria, viruses, allergens, mold, dust, pet dander, and hair. These particles can contribute to cardiovascular disease, lung disease, and even neurodegenerative diseases. Your home should be a safe haven, not a source of toxic air pollution. And that's why I use Air Doctor air purifiers. Air Doctor by Ideal Living is the first affordable air purifier that not only removes virtually 100% of particles at 0.003 microns, but also the vast majority of volatile organic chemicals and gases. It features an ultra HEPA filter that captures contaminants 100 times smaller than the HEPA standard, and its perfectly sealed system ensures you're breathing nothing but pure filtered air. I've teamed up with the makers of Air Doctor to give my listeners the best deal yet on this amazing filtration system. Right now, if you go to drhyman.com/filter, you can get the Air Doctor Purifiers for $329. That's $280 off the normal price. And now, let's get back to this week's episode of the Doctor's Pharmacy. I want to sort of come back to a little bit more granularity on the nutrition front. So clearly, I agree with you that I think a lot of these phytochemicals are important. And many of these work through activating various longevity pathways in our body, these switches that we now are understanding more carefully as we peel back the layers on what we call the hallmarks of aging, these underlying mechanisms that go wrong as we get older that are influenced by everything we do from our thoughts and beliefs like gratitude, but also to the phytochemicals in food and our exercise and all sorts of inputs that we can regulate. But you wrote this book, the Longevity Matrix. What was your main thesis and what was the main concept behind the book? and that what led you to write this book? Because I think there are so many books on longevity. I'm just curious about your frame of this as a doctor who's really expert in natural medicine.

Mark, I learned something years ago from one of my favorite patients of all time. His name was Dean and he had a very rare genetic disorder. And he was the most compliant, motivated patient I ever had. And he said something to me once. I asked him why he was going through all this because it was a very painful existence. And he said, he goes, All I can do is all I can do, so why wouldn't I do all that I can do? And when we look at what constitutes health, we look at what helps us live a longer and healthy life, it's a constellation. It's a matrix of different factors, different facets. we really have to pay attention to all of them. And that's my point of the book. And one of the big stress points in the book, something I stress over and over again, is that just about every major class of medicine that you look at, every class of drug that you look at, it's providing short-term benefit but providing long-term damage. And that shows up in studies looking at the impact of various drugs on our longevity, whether we're talking proton pump inhibitors, we're talking benzodiazepines, we're talking about other sedative hypnotic drugs, we're talking about acetaminophen or Tylenol. Very simple drugs often produce disastrous long-term effects. And so philosophically, I want to help people get away from that mentality and focus on what they can do to build health, to create a matrix in their body that will support them in for the rest of their lives. And what I found in most people, Mark, is that they're not so much interested in living longer. They want to live better and stronger now. And one of the first things I focus on in the book is helping people create a why. Because what I found, and you probably found this as well, is that many people really don't want to be here because No, they're not happy. They're dealing with health issues that are hard and they're struggling and life is such a challenge and they don't feel well. So talking to them about living more like this, it's not appealing to them. So helping them realize that that's not what life is supposed to be. Life is a celebration. We're supposed to be getting up every day and say, fantastic, man, I'm thankful to be alive today, and this is what I'm gonna do and, and go out and do it. And, you know, there's a lot of things that go into feeling like that. And, and that's really the basis of my book. And I'm sure your book as well. We have to help people feel better now so they want to live longer.

That's absolutely true. In terms of the, the, the, the sort of protein question, I want to sort of come back to that, because I think you know, in the longevity field, there's a lot of debate about this, and a lot of longevity researchers are suggesting we should be vegan because we don't want to stimulate mTOR. Can you kind of speak to that and, and, and, and the whole idea of protein and aging and muscle mass and sort of the kind of balance between sarcopenia and, and the need to build muscle, but also the need to kind of do cleanup and repair through autophagy, which is cellular cleanup?

Yeah, it's a, it's a big topic. I I I eat predominantly a high protein diet, but I try to get my protein from, from clean sources. I rely on, uh, whey protein. I know that's controversial for some people, but it's a very high quality protein, and it's very clean. I I focus on Moderate consumption of fish, particularly clean fish like salmon. And I also focus on eggs and egg whites. That's where I get the majority of my protein. And I like a high protein diet because I think that that promotes muscular health. If you don't have that protein intake, then you're going to lose muscle mass. And when you lose muscle mass, you're accelerating aging. Muscles are the main furnace of our body. It burns fat, it helps our metabolism, everything works better if we have an appropriate muscle mass. And we start losing that muscle mass and as we age, we're losing muscle mass. gradually losing it, then we start being more frail. We now know that sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass, is kind of the predecessor to osteoporosis. We know that there's a link between sarcopenia and loss of cognition. So we're starting to understand that it's important to to build and maintain our muscle mass throughout our life. So that plays into the next area, lifestyle. And I'm a big believer in regular exercise. It's a great investment for every hour of exercise you put in, you're supposed to live two hours longer. So you and I, we should never die with our muscles.

That sounds good to me.

In our life. exercise is one of the best correlators to living a long life. And I think certain exercises are more effective at doing that. Sure, we've got to get our heart rate up, but we also have to build muscle mass. And I think that's important for our health and for living longer. So I'm a big proponent of strength training. I'm a big proponent of stretching and getting body work done, making sure you're structurally aligned. You know, I remember once this woman came up to me after a lecture and she was all hunched over and her posture was really bad. She says, hey, I've been taking glucosamine and I haven't really seen any benefit. I said, well, you know, we've got to straighten out your mechanics here because you have mechanical stress and nutrition can only do so much there. We've got to get you aligned better and get your biomechanics better. So I'm a big proponent of really taking care of your body in every aspect, feeding it right, making sure it's getting exercise and making sure it's in proper alignment.

Yeah, the musculoskeletal health is super important because that's what determines our function as we get older and we often lose that. So that's a really key part. I want to dive now into sort of a sticky area that I love, but you also clearly love, which is the area of supplementation. Okay. So the argument goes, gee, why do we need supplements? Why can't we get everything we need from whole foods? If we eat a whole foods diet, our hunter-gather ancestors never had supplements. Why do we need them? And sort of first answer that, and then let's dive into actually what we do need and why we need it, particularly in the perspective of longevity research.

Yeah, our food supply has changed more significantly than our DNA and what our body requires. and our food supply today has no resemblance to the food supply that we had thousands of years ago. Even the paleo diet is kind of a joke when you start looking at what they ate back in the Stone Age, you know?

They weren't having paleo chocolate chips, right?

No, no, it was much different than what we have available now. So the question is, I think, can we provide the optimal level of not only the nutrients our body needs, but also the phytochemicals from diet alone? And the simple answer is no, it's impossible because our food supply has changed so much and it's no longer nutrient rich, it's no longer phytochemical rich. And the type of phytochemicals in our food is is changed and it's changed by modern farming. And I'm sure you've had many experts talk about this. If we look at the flavonoids, as I said, I've loved them. If you look at the flavonoid composition of organically grown tomatoes and compare it to GMO tomatoes, it's different. The pesticides, herbicides influence the plants production of these, like you mentioned, protective compounds. So, I really think that it's important to take advantage of all these superfoods that we have available to us and all these supplements that can help promote health and longevity. And if we don't, you know, yeah, we might be able to get by, but we're not going to be thriving. And I'd rather see people thriving than just getting by.

I agree. And in terms of longevity. What are the things that are the kind of have to's? I mean, there's a list a mile long, and I want to talk about your personal recommendations that you take because I've looked at your list and it's quite extensive. But what are sort of the have to's, the non-negotiables that are really key that are backed by science around what we need to take for longevity?

I think in anything you're doing in life, sports, your job, building health, you have to pay attention to the foundation. So your question is, what are the foundational supplements that promote longevity? I think you need a good high potency multiple vitamin and mineral formula because a deficiency of any single nutrient can have catastrophic effects on our health. Next, I do believe in the vitamin D3 research. I do think that it is critical that we have adequate vitamin D3 levels. So take enough vitamin D3 to get you in that ideal range, 60 to 80 nanograms per ml or micrograms per ml. Then next, I think these pharmaceutical grade fish oils are a great gift because you're getting these long chain omega-3 fatty acids in a very clean form and you have thousands of scientific studies showing the benefits of these long chain omega-3 fatty acids to our health. So taking a good high quality fish oil, getting enough of them, getting at least 1000 milligrams combined with EPA and DHA each day, I think is a good goal. Next, I think it's important to take some sort of plant-based broad spectrum antioxidant, a good flavonoid rich extract, would be a good choice, something like a grape seed extract or a pine bark extract in the range of 150 to 300 milligrams per day. You could take one of these enhanced versions of curcumin, that would be a good choice. There's so many great broad spectrum antioxidants. You could take a green drink, just something that's rich in phytochemicals that can produce some real benefit.

I mean, it seems like the ones that you've actually listed in your personal list are the ones that have seemed to be, for me, the most data on health and longevity like quercetin, curcumin, green tea extracts, resveratrol, which are sort of the things that grape seed extract, which are the things that actually are based on literature the most promising.

Yeah, well, you know, quercetin is interesting because it activates the the longevity gene. Everyone's trying to like, I know NMN is a big thing. Yeah, yeah. What you're doing is you're filling in a bucket that has a hole in it. There's a NMN bucket and that there's a hole in it. And so we're filling that bucket up continually by taking NMN instead of fixing that hole. That hole is related to an activity of an enzyme and we can help heal that bucket by taking quercetin. It activates that longevity gene and that raises the body's own NAD+ levels instead of having to take NMN.

What is that longevity gene you're talking about with quercetin? Because I think that's a very important one for longevity that maybe people haven't heard of. It also seemed to be very effective in COVID and helping with the immune system. It's great allergies and gut healing. So tell us a little bit more about the mechanism of action of course, because I think it's something people hear about but may not be aware of.

Yes, this particular gene increases the expression of the enzyme that regenerates NAD+. And NAD+ levels tend to decline as we age and people are taking things like nicotinamide riboside or nicotinamide mononucleotide NMN to try and boost NAD+ levels. But quercetin and other flavonoids by influencing the production of a very specific enzyme can help regenerate that NAD+ and I think a more sustainable fashion. Otherwise, you're not addressing the underlying cause. Good medicine always involves trying to understand what's really going on in the cell and in the body and trying to repair it.

And so- you- remember the name of that enzyme?

It's naphthoquinone oxo reductase one.

Oh, that's a big one. That's a big one. Well, we're gonna put that in the show notes. It's an interesting mechanism of action. And I think that's a that's a very insightful point. So maybe even if you took NAD or NMN or NR and you have course along with it, it might help, right?

Yeah, yeah. I personally don't take NMN because I believe in the flavonoids that I'm taking.

But you're also taking a lot of other stuff. You're taking things for detoxification and mitochondria, which play a big role in aging things to help your metabolism. So can you talk about some of those compounds that you're taking?

Oh my God, yeah, you know, if you're looking at wanting to live longer, you've got to have plenty of energy. So you have to ask the question.

Well.

How do I make sure my energy-producing machinery is working properly? And the best way to do that is to focus on things that help your mitochondria work better. your mitochondria are the energy producing compartments of our cell. It needs virtually all the B vitamins, it needs coenzyme Q10, and it needs protective agents around it because basically your mitochondria are like a little mini nuclear reactor. They're producing energy and that's what gives us life. In that process, it's generating a lot of pro-oxidants and oxidants that can cause damage to the mitochondria as well as our cell. so there's some special compounds that protect the mitochondria. One of my favorites is called PQQ. That's short for pyrroquinoline quinone. That's why we called it PQQ. I love this compound, Mark. I'm sure you've talked about it, but it's found in stardust. And you could make a claim that PQ-Q is the spark of life spread through the universe because it's absolutely essential for life. It plays a key role in mitochondrial function. It's found in our diet in very small quantities, but they're necessary. It will someday be classified as a vitamin similar to in quantities to like like folic acid. And, it is available in supplement form. It's been shown to work very well with Coenzyme Q10. Yeah. And, but anyway, this-- Is it related to CoQ10?

It sounds like from the name of it, it may be, but is it different than CoQ10?

It is. It's a bit different. And, every time an anti-- we use this term antioxidant a lot, but there are as many different antioxidants as there are musical instruments. and you need that whole band playing. But every time an antioxidant performs its function, it's called a catalytic conversion. Some antioxidants are relatively cheap, like vitamin C. It can only be used four times and then it's spent. PQ10, it can survive 20,000 catalytic conversions, so it makes it very special and that's why it's really concentrated in the mitochondria because it's a very valuable antioxidant to protect against damage during that energy production. Glutathione is another example of a key antioxidant, but PQQ is many times more powerful than even glutathione. And I don't know if anyone's talked about ergothioneine that- yeah, no, we do.

We have talked about it. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it.

Ergothioneine is interesting.

Before you go on about PQQ, I just want to sort of say something about it. It's one of those compounds that activates what I call one of these longevity switches. Your body has these hallmarks of aging, and then the most important one of these is deregulated nutrient sensing. And, I call these four longevity switches that regulate insulin, mTOR, sirtuins, which have to do with resveratrol and things like that, NED. But then there's AMPK, which a lot of people are taking metformin for, but PQQ activates AMPK, which helps to really work on all the longevity pathways.

Very well said. And, you know, that leads us to berberine, too. Berberine is one of my standard supplements. It's a compound found in goldenseal, and it has great research showing an ability to lower cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower blood glucose levels. If it was a drug, it'd be the biggest selling drug of all time. We're talking nearly 30 double-blind placebo-controlled studies showing that this compound that's found in plants like Goldenseal and Barberry and Goldthread can lower cholesterol levels as well as the statin, can lower blood pressure as well as an ACE inhibitor, and can lower blood sugar levels as well as metformin.

That's impressive.

Has some other really unique effects as well, including activation of AMPK. Yes, there's a lot of compounds in nature that activate AMPK. And my whole diet is full of them. You know, it's just amazing all these different compounds. They all have some common features. Nrf2 activation is another key anti-aging strategy. It's a non-specific call to arms by our cells to activate our antioxidant mechanisms. And it explained, one of the things that has happened in flavonoid research and some of the phytochemical research, they do test tube studies to see what actions it might produce. And then, but those test tube studies show us what the concentration is that's required to produce those effects. And sometimes it's not possible to achieve that level of concentration. They get metabolized, they get broken down. But they're still active. So how are they working? And then that turns into a really interesting study because we see more clearly has pharmacology has evolved. We've rediscovered some of these compounds that we thought weren't active because we didn't have the models to explain how they work. And what we're seeing is that many of these natural compounds activate really important cellular targets. Like you mentioned, the four hallmarks of aging and cyclic AMP is certainly one of those key factors. it not only lowers lipid levels, improves blood sugar levels, it increases the formation of mitochondria. You increase the number of mitochondria, you increase the energy of a cell, you increase the energy of the cell, it works better. So, it's, you give that, it's like, you know, I look at it, the brain is our most metabolically active tissue, okay? And yet many people, they have a, their dimmer switch is turned to dim because They don't have the mitochondrial energy production needed to have that brain be bright and to function properly. And, you know, it's an epidemic of mild cognitive impairment to dementia in our elderly right now. And I think helping them have more mitochondrial numbers and better mitochondrial function is the solution. and so many of the things that we look to to improve mitochondrial function improve brain function as well. I started taking this product, Marc, it's from our friends at Natural Factors. It's called RegenerLife. I love this product because I take a lot of pills, but this comes in a powdered form. So you got a little scoop here and you just empty that orange powder into your glass and you've got a great cocktail. It contains acetyl-L-carnitine, CoQ10, and some other key compounds for enhanced mitochondrial function. And, it's just a great way to get that dimmer switch to turn up a bit.

Yeah, I put that in my smoothie every morning. I do, actually.

It's great.

I think it's just important to emphasize what you said earlier about these plant compounds that work on these pathways that drugs work on. So, a lot of people in the longevity field are thinking about metformin and taking this diabetes drug for longevity. And there's a large trial going on now called the TAME trial, targeting aging with metformin, which was, which is really designed to determine whether or not this is an effective longevity intervention that can reverse biological age. But what you're saying is that there are many of these compounds like berberine and other things that actually do the same or work better than these drugs. Is that true?

Yeah, yes, absolutely. And if we look at the contrast between Bare Brain and Metformin is really interesting. Metformin, by the way, was originally isolated from a plant. So conceptually, it is a natural product and it does have some, it does have a place in medicine, but I think that Bare Brain might be a better choice. And what's interesting about both Metformin and Bare Brain is they affect the microbiome. But if you, if you, I'm sure you've, in different ways. Yeah, exactly. I'm sure you've had people on Metformin. What's their biggest complaint, Mark?

Digestive problems. Digestive problems. Yes.

Yes, because I don't think it's affecting the microbiome in a healthy way. Berberine has phenomenal effects on the microbiome. It has, it's a selective antibiotic. it's a pathogen specific, disease-causing organism specific antibiotic, and it promotes the growth of many health-promoting bacteria. One of the key ones is called Akkermansia muciniphila. This compound or this bacteria, it works with our intestinal cells to create the mucin layer. It's given the name muciniphila. Filia means love. It loves that mucin and it helps improve the quality and function of that mucin. When we talk about leaky gut, we're talking about the loss of that mucin and we're talking about a deficiency of acrylmentia mucinophilia. When we talk about diabetes, when we talk about non-alcoholic fatty liver disease, when we talk about systemic inflammation caused by a leaky gut, we're talking about decreased Akkermansia muciniphila. And BareBrain increases the counts of this health-promoting bacteria, helps reestablish that mucin layer, and is a very important remedy for leaky gut, diabetes, and systemic inflammation, fatty liver disease, all these sequelae of what we know are the result of absorbing gut derived toxins that create all these problems in our liver and our metabolism. So, I think the contrast between metformin and berberine on gut health is night and day. One, metformin questionable benefits, maybe some harm. Berberine looks very beneficial.

Interesting. So, maybe we're searching for love in the wrong places. That maybe the plant kingdom actually is a source of a lot of these compounds. And this is what I found when I wrote my book Young Forever, that a lot of these compounds are in nature working on these pathways that we are trying to find drugs for, but they do it in a way that's kind of more in line with nature, less likely to have side effects and potentially even more benefit.

Yeah, and what's exciting, Mark, is the best from nature is yet to come. I've had my fingers on the pulse of research for over 40 years now, and I'm telling you with the increase in our understanding of how natural compounds work in our body, we're going to be gaining a greater appreciation. You know, one of the biggest indicators of of how far we've come in that regard is looking at curcumin. So curcumin has been the subject of over 8,000 scientific investigations. Why are researchers studying curcumin? Because they're trying to find a drug that will produce the same actions and they haven't been able to find one. It's been intense research over 20 years and most natural compounds exert what are called pleiotropic effects. This is un known in with traditional drugs. If we look at inflammation, like a celebrex or an aspirin, they work on one enzyme. There are over 40 different enzymes that have been implicated in causing the Cascade of events that lead to severe inflammation. Curcumin impacts all of them. It's been shown to impact every known activator of inflammation. Well, the drugs only work on one or two. And it's really quite interesting. I believe in the power of nature. You know, we fall in love with technology, but, you know, I wrote a book called the Magic of Food. And my thought was how I came up with that title was that Sir Arthur Clarke, who wrote 2001: A Space Odyssey, had a great quote. He said, Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. and we have lost sight of where true technology lies because, you know, we're all amazed by our iPhone and our computers and all this technology, but the greatest technology in the universe is nature. And the way we commune with nature on a daily basis is through the food that we eat. And you've talked about this for years. You've made a, I've heard, I listened to a lecture where you said, food is information. It's information, it's technology.

That's right, it's really like, yeah, it's true. It's technology is about information and food is information and your biology is an informational system. And actually there's a whole new theory of aging called the Information Theory of Aging, which talks about the dysfunctional information that we're either producing or that's being put in our biology that's actually causing us to age rapidly. So, it's exactly this problem.

Oh, wow.

So, Michael, Michael, I wanted to sort of loop back on this ergothioneine thing. We went down the rabbit hole of berberine and.

Yeah.

And some of the other compounds, pqq. But I wanna, I wanna sort of kind of talk about this because something people may not have heard about, and it's an interesting new compound that we've sort of found plays a role, perhaps, in aging.

Absolutely. Ergothioneine is an amino acid. that has a sulfur molecule. It's part of a group of compounds called thiol, kind of like coenzyme Q10 and glutathione. So the richest dietary source is mushroom. And when you start looking at the data, you know, we talk about the Mediterranean diet. We look at, you know, these people living in Japan that live long. and you can make a very strong case that the intake of mushrooms is the most significant factor associated with these folks living longer and being healthier, because mushrooms are rich in this compound, ergothioneine. And it'll be considered a vitamin someday. The reason why it's not now is that it exists, it has existed in our food supply in low quantities forever, but our food supply is different. So, for example, this ergothioneine is produced by fungi. So, if the ground is, which contains a lot of fungi, if it's being tilled excessively or you're dumping a lot of pesticides and herbicides into that soil, the fungal content is decreased. With decreased fungal content, we get reduced ergothioneine content. In ergothioneine, I think- In all plants.

Or just in mushrooms?

In all plants. It's found in all foods, even animal foods in small quantities. So historically we've been getting our ergothioneine bucket filled but now we're only getting it filled through eating mushrooms and a higher diet composition of mushrooms has higher ergothionine levels. And a lot of the benefits that we know are with mushrooms like preventing cognitive decline and promoting anti-aging effects, it's related to their ergothionine content. So, I think to me, looking at the data, it just really signifies again how far we've come from what we're designed to be. Right? Because this is a compound that I think historically humans were getting plenty of because they were eating dirty food.

What does it do? Like, what's the mechanisms of action? How does it influence us?

It's a very powerful antioxidant. So it exerts anti-inflammatory effects and those are kind of blanket terms. And we can look at specifically the way that it works, but you think of it, glutathione is a tripeptide. So it's a very large molecule. This is a very small molecule. It's just one amino acid. and we actually have receptor sites on our cells that pump it into the cell. Our cells only have those receptor sites for things that are really important like potassium.

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

It's very important. So what it does inside that cell is it acts as one of the primary antioxidants and it's very important in preventing cellular damage. And we know that oxidative damage is what that is associated with aging. And so it's, you know, Bruce Ames, who developed the Ames test looking at mutagens, he identified ergothioneine as one of his longevity vitamins. And it will be considered a vitamin like PQQ, like Q and like a few other compounds that are absolutely essential. And they haven't been a big deal because we were getting the trace amounts that we need from the foods that we eat. But now our farming techniques have changed, the composition of our fruits and vegetables and other foods has changed. And we've got this ever increasing load of pesticides, herbicides and other man-made chemicals. It's just, yeah. So we really need these compounds that are cellular protectors. And ergothioneine is one of the key cellular protectors. yeah.

Interesting. It's interesting because, you know, when I went to icaria and the blue zones, they ate a lot of mushrooms and made a lot of wild mushrooms. It was just sort of part of their diet. They were always foraging and hunting for mushrooms. So are there particular mushrooms that have.

Higher levels that people can buy at the grocery store? Just sort of like, yeah, even button mushrooms will have it. But cremini mushrooms, the, the darker brown ones, they're often sold as buttons. They're higher shiitake. lion's mane and oyster mushrooms have the highest levels, but you'll find it in all levels in the...

I love shiitake mushrooms. I roast them, I stir fry them with a little olive oil and garlic. It's great.

Yeah, so if we look at the per capita estimated ergothioneine intake in America, I might not get these numbers exactly right, but I think it's like six milligrams and we compare it to like Italy, it's like 13, it's almost two and a half times. It's about 13 milligrams. So yeah, again, so we, you can, and if you think about it, think about all these blue zone cuisines, right? Mushrooms are usually part of the diet. Yeah.

It's true. They really are. And I found that when I was traveling in the Sardinia and Ikaria, and I was like, wow. And they always were serving them. And I'm like, this makes sense. It's just what we ate. And it's one of those foods that are forageable. So probably you've been eating it for hundreds of thousands of years if they didn't kill us. Are there any other kind of up and coming compounds that you're excited about that we may not have heard about? So ergothioneine, is that something you can take as a supplement or just have to eat mushrooms?

And, and it is available. Yeah, it is available as a supplement. And I, I think 25 milligrams is a, is a, is a good amount. There's so many compounds, Mark. And, you know, as I told you, I, I have an affinity for, for, for flavonoids. And one flavonoid is, is quite interesting. Nobleton. I don't know if you've heard of Nobleton. It's, it's a flavonoid that was originally isolated from unripe tangerine peels. And what's interesting about it is it opened my eyes up to the fact that all cells of our body have a circadian clock, a biological clock. And they screened over 5,700 compounds looking for compounds that will bind to these receptor sites that regulate each cell's biological clock and this Nobleton was able to bind and influence that improved resonance of the cell. And this is really interesting because it has a chemical effect but it produces a frequency effect and it causes increased cellular oscillations and it has remarkable benefits. reasonable dose levels. It's one of the few flavonoids that are is bioavailable without being transformed and conjugated. So I think that that's one that's really exciting and gee, I mean, there's so many others. I think spermidine is an interesting one.

Oh, that sounds like an interesting one. Tell us about spermidine.

Well, yeah, spermidine is part of the putrescine family, polyamine family. And historically, these have been associated with kind of poor health because some of them don't sound too good, like cadaverine and putrescine.

Yeah, no, exactly.

Spermidine actually has a lot of anti-aging effects. And when we, when we lose spermidine content in our cells, we lose a very valuable component to regulate cellular function. So we start we start seeing accelerated aging in cells that have a lower spermidine content and there's disruption of this whole polyamine pathway. So I think spermidine is quite interesting. We get it from, you know, wheat germ is one of the richest sources. So there's some good research coming out with wheat germ extracts or spermidine supplementation.

What's the mechanism of action of spermidine? How does it sort of enhance longevity?

It basically, it's a polyamine, so it's donating those amine groups when needed, and that helps with stability of the epigenetic matrix like the histones, and that leads to greater stability of that DNA, you get better transcription.

Amazing, amazing. Well, this is just such great information, and I think you know, we've covered a lot of ground. I think, I think we've gone deep into the world of supplements, which is interesting for people. I think people get overwhelmed and take too much stuff. And I think, you know, you're ambitious. I think I tend to be more in your Camp. But, I mean, it is still experimental. When you throw all this stuff in your body, what happens? How much of it's used? How much was wasted? You know, what is actually doing? You know, how do you track the results? I mean, it's, there's all these questions. But I think, I think there is really good evidence for some basic foundational things that you mentioned, and then we'll link to in the show notes. Any final thoughts or words for people who are focused on what are the key strategies for living a longer and healthier life?

Oh boy.

Like I said, what do you do, Michael?

I do it all. I do it all. I try to have good thoughts. I try to have a good attitude. I try to have a very healthy lifestyle. Getting enough sleep, Mark, that is really key to life. in many ways. If you sleep well, you have more energy. If you have more energy, life is easier, everything's brighter. So, you know, one of the biggest tools I've found to help people feel better is to help them get a better night's sleep. I really believe in the power of a good night's sleep. It just recharges us, it cleans our cells, it recharges our batteries. and then exercise, you know, I believe in that. And then, you know, I eat a very clean diet and I focus on giving my body all the tools it needs to be as healthy as possible. You know, I eat the good things, I stay away from the bad things. Yeah, I'm a health nut, which is crazy, right? We call people nuts because they're wanting to live the healthiest version of themselves in life. and it's crazy in my mind not to be that way. So I encourage people to embrace being a health net and do everything they can to make those choices they make every day healthier choices than they're currently making.

It's just that simple, really, isn't it? It's just sort of incrementally adding those things in that we know support our health. And as we get older, we need to do more of them. And I really thank you for your lifetime of work and service and advancing natural medicine and providing a lot of the insights and understandings that I first got, you know, 30 years ago as I began to look at this field. And the textbook of natural medicine was such a key part of that. So I encourage everybody to check it out. Check out Michael's book, the Longevity Matrix, which is out now. You can check out his website, Dr. Murray. That's D-O-C-T-O-R-Murray.com, and you will not be disappointed when you dive into his great body of work. And Michael, thank you so much for all your contributions to advancing the field.

Of natural and functional medicine. Well, I love you, Mark, and it was great fun. And, I look forward to connecting to you in person at a near future time. Yeah, hopefully, maybe you'll be at the.

Integrative Health Symposium, and we'll see you there. So, great to see you, buddy, and good luck with everything. If you love this podcast, everybody listening to it, share with your friends and family. I bet they'd love to hear about it. and leave a comment. What's worked for you? How have you felt better? What have you found works best for optimizing your energy and maybe helping you live longer? We'd love to hear. And we'll see you next time on the Doctor's Pharmacy. Hey, everybody, it's Dr. Hyman. Thanks for tuning into the Doctor's Pharmacy. I hope you're loving this podcast. It's one of my favorite things to do and introducing you to all the experts that I know and I love and that I've learned so much from. and I want to tell you about something else I'm doing, which is called Mark's Picks. It's my weekly newsletter, and in it I share my favorite stuff, from foods to supplements to gadgets to tools to enhance your health. It's all the cool stuff that I use and that my team uses to optimize and enhance our health. And I'd love you to sign up for the weekly newsletter. I'll only send it to you once a week on Fridays. Nothing else, I promise. And all you have to do is go to Dr. Hyman.com/picks to sign up. That's Dr. Hyman.com/picks, P-I-C-K-S, and sign up for the newsletter and I'll share with you my favorite stuff that I use to enhance my health and get healthier and better and live younger longer.

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