Why We All Lie, How It Messes Up Our Lives and How To Fix It with Lauren Zander

So first of all, I teach personal integrity and it's an ability to really have your thoughts, your actions, and your feelings aligned with your highest self, with what you really wish to be true for you about life, right? Like no one's coming to save you except you and no one's coming to live your ideals except you. I'm not offering you my ideals, I'm offering you your ideals. What are they?

Hi, I'm Mark Hyman and today's podcast includes some mature language, so just be aware of that. And now let's go right into the episode. Welcome to the Doctor's Pharmacy. That's F-A-R-M-A-C-Y. I'm Dr. Mark Hyman, and this is a place for conversations that matter. And I think you're gonna find today's conversation with Lauren Zander, the founder and the co-founder, chairwoman of the Handel Group, to be one of the most interesting conversations we've had because we're gonna go deep about me, about life, about you, about the inner you and all of it. So let me tell you a little bit about Lauren. She's the co-founder and chairwoman of the Hendel Group, which is an international corporate consulting and life coaching company. Just full confession here, Lauren has been my coach and has helped me overcome a lot of my obstacles to life, to be happy and fulfilled and successful. So if you wanna know the secret of my success, it's partly sitting next to me here, Lauren Zander. Her coaching methodology, and it's a method, it's called the Handel Method, is taught in over 35 universities and institutes of learning around the world, including shabby institutions like MIT and Stanford Graduate School of Business, NYU and the New York City Public School System, which is pretty awesome. Getting kids early with food and mental resilience, I think is pretty important. She's also the creator of an extraordinary new program called Inner your: Learn to Human Better, which is an online coaching course that teaches the entirety of the Handel Method. So you don't have to pay a ton of money in order to get a life coach. every week for a long time. You can actually get this on your own and do it yourself. It's pretty awesome. It's been used by lots of celebrities, CEOs, entrepreneurs since 2004. She's the author of a great book, maybe it's you, not like the other person, but maybe it's you, you who's the cause of your unhappiness. It's a great manual that helps people figure out not just what they want out of life, but how to actually get there. She has spent over 20 years coaching thousands of private and corporate clients, including Live Nation, Ticketmaster, Vogue, BASF, and AOL. She has been featured as an expert in the New York Times, BBC, Forbes, Women's Health, Dr. Oz, Marie Claire, and she's a regular contributor to Business Week.

And the Huffington Post. Welcome, Lauren Zander.

Woo hoo.

You could tell how old I am.

By that list, right? She's actually not. She started when she was eight.

No, she started coaching her friends.

How did she get such a list? Yeah, well, it's true. She was the little girl that everybody went to for advice in her third grade.

So that explains how low- that is true still. That is actually true. That's true too.

Now, Laura and I first met at a business meeting where someone who we mutually knew thought we would be a good partner in collaboration around life and change health and coaching and so forth. And I was like, oh, okay, this is an interesting woman. And we just happened to take a cab ride downtown. I invited her to come to a talk I was giving. And she like a laser saw right through me. which scared the crap out of me. And I basically tried to avoid her for the next six months 'cause I really didn't wanna deal with what was going on in my life, which was not a great marriage at the time. So in that moment, what was it that you saw about me that I needed to do and deal with?

Well, you were- you- remember that moment? Oh my God, I can go back to the moment in that taxi, like the first moment, one, I fell in love with you. Like, oh my God, you are the cutest man ever who is so committed to humanity, I can't even stand it. I saw what you were committed to. And then I started to poke at you, right? Like, sir, how's the rest of your life, Mr. Big as can be, right? And then knew in an instant with the way you muffled your words, right? Like that you were miserable in your personal life. Like I knew it in a second. And you knew it. And you knew we caught it in that moment. I was like, and you were like, and I knew you even were like, back off, right? You want to be my friend, you better back off. And I backed off. I did me, you know, I backed off a little. And then I started poking at more things and found even, you know, just you were a workaholic and you weren't happy in your marriage. And I knew it in like three minutes in the taxi drive.

It's true. So that's why I like to call you a spiritual surgeon, a spiritual dentist, a spiritual accountant, a chiropractor. You sort of go for the cavities. It's a little bit intimidating because people don't want to look at themselves. You always say, your job is easy. People want to be healthy, they want to eat good food. It's aspirational. People don't want to look at their dark sides. They don't want to look at their thinking. They don't want to look at their beliefs and their attitudes that actually make them unhappy.

They like the way they are in a way, even though they don't really like it. Well, they got, you got, you get yourself in a trap, and then you believe everything that got you to the trap, and then you believe everything that says you have to stay in the trap, like, because you're listening to that voice in your head, and it's you, but it's also the, problem with you, right? So how do you break into a person? It's not actually hard for me, but getting a person to want to break into themselves, that's a trick.

Yeah, see, you call yourself a life coach. I think because there aren't other great terms and you call your company a life coaching company, but I don't really think it is. You're a unique character that actually has the ability to see what's really going on with people on Instant. It's not just about making lists and making plans and building your dream and dealing with those obstacles. It's actually getting to the root cause, which is like functional medicine for the soul.

Yes, yes.

I think that's what you do.

Yes, I like what you understand about the truth about a body and what I understand the truth about being happy, like really being true to yourself and how far away a person is from that. I can get them there, you can get them there. And we knew that. We knew we were that in that moment. Like, you saw me, even though you didn't want to deal with it.

I didn't see you.

You didn't want to deal with me.

You were like, I saw you for you.

I didn't want it for me. You're like, that's amazing. And please get that out to all.

Humans, but holy shit. The truth is, I didn't really want to admit to myself how unhappy I was in my marriage. And I didn't really want to do anything about it. I was scared of the consequences. I didn't really-- know how to navigate that space. And I wasn't really willing to kind of have you tell me how bad it was because I knew you'd be right. And then I'd have to deal with it, which wasn't really what I wanted.

To do at the time. I was busy.

Yeah.

It's so funny because as you say that, I can still imagine the terror in your eye when I asked you, how's your marriage? What would you rate it?

Yeah.

Right? Like, how good is it? How's your sex life? How fun is it? Are you in love? And you were like, Don't go there, like, you know, big dog, beware.

So you have to be ready, you have to be ready. And you know, you say your job is hard because people don't want to actually face the truth. They don't want to face the lies they tell themselves. They don't want to face the ways that they get in their own way. And I think for me, that's really been one of the most powerful things you've helped me do is to get out of my own way and to stop being my own worst enemy and to become more free in how to live life. And you know, what I was curious about was, you know, I've heard these stories, you know, you were the kid in the third grade that, you know, was Lucy, you know, from Charlie Brown, who had the advice for five cents and you'd say, you know, people would call you. How did that happen? Like, how did you start coaching? Was this always how you were? Were you born like this? What happened?

I was born like this, but there's a big but I was born like this, but I wasn't following what I under, what I ultimately teach now, I was, A hypocrite, right? It didn't mean people weren't asking me what I thought or me calling things out. It just, I was, you know how Lucy really pulled the ball away?

Yeah.

I was actually really lying. Like, I was not, I had a cigarette hanging out of my mouth. I was stealing money from my parents, right? Like, I was a bad kid pretending I was great and, you know, had things that were great about me. But when it, when push came to shove, I did not have a love life that made me happy. And I was a workaholic myself.

Really?

Hi, cute friend. Don't we have a lot of that? Like we were, we had, you and I had a lot in common, except I had one thing going for me, which was I figured this all out a lot younger than when you and I hooked up.

Like, do you remember as a kid just having this awareness that you understood people's emotional, spiritual context.

I, there was, you know, later in life, someone came to me who I met ultimately as a client later, but knew me when I was 11. And we shared a ski house. And this guy said to me, you know, you did something that changed my life. I was like, what did I do? I was 11. I don't remember it. I don't remember anything.

You were 11.

I was 11. And he saw me interrupt my parents in a, fight. They weren't fighting fighting, but he saw me interrupt them and get away with it and adorably get my dad to see what he was doing to my mom, get my mom to see what she was doing to my dad, stop the action, coach them, ask them to stop it, and to make sure we had like a good time tonight because this was starting to be like, I like literally coached them. First of all, he couldn't believe that I knew how to say it or do it or like, and that It really worked, right? And then his parents were in the room and it freaked him out because it opened a world to communication isn't something that doesn't alter the way everyone sees things or feels. And I was frickin' 11. And I don't even remember what he's talking about, but I was capable of, you know, dropping a mic in a room and getting everybody to stop everything and think.

Yeah. Right.

And so, hey, I was doing it all along.

So how did you go from, you know, having the insights but not behaving.

In integrity to... You mean why was I a druggie? And like smoking pot and bad kid? And I was, I just, you know, one of the funniest things I still think is true and embarrassing, though I'm not that embarrassed about it, is, you know, you're like, how did you get through high school? I cheated. How did you get through, you know, everything? I'm like, I was stoned and cheated, but I really like sports. So I was the captain of my team. Like, I was like very strange, could get away with everything, didn't learn much, was loved, and no one knew I was lying.

Yeah.

Like, not even my parents.

And then what happened where you go like, wait, this isn't right.

I need to. I had a spiritual revelation. that I was a con, right? I had a moment where everything changed and I realized I couldn't feel myself. I might be getting away with everything. I might have all the friends in the world. I might have, like, I have the boyfriend. I had everything, but felt nothing. And felt so isolated and alone. And then the revelation was, maybe it's because I'm a liar.

Yeah.

Like, hey, hey, Chiquita. Maybe you lie to everybody and nobody knows it, and you can't feel anything. And that was the beginning of me resolving. Like, I really. Because I'm such a badass, right? So when I catch something, I'm gonna reverse it. And I went and cleaned up every lie. You're like, how clean? I'm like, I even told my parents who I slept with in their bed. That's disgusting. I'm like, He's an orthodox.

That's one of the most.

He's an orthodox guy.

That's one of the most terrifying things you actually have people do is actually go and clean up all their messes, apologize to everybody in their life, tell the truth to everybody.

You're gonna scare everybody away now. No one's gonna do it.

It's okay.

Right.

But I can say, the truth is, I still haven't done that fully, even though I try to do it more and more. But it's, you know.

Let me say something about that. All my coaches, if you wanna become a hand-held coach, you've cleaned up every last lie you've ever told because it brings a level of profound awareness and self-respect to yourself and a respect to the other person you screwed over or never rectified the story with and you've apologized and either they forgave you or they didn't, but that level of humaning is profound. And I know I can't convince everybody to do it, but man, oh man, it's the best sober drug in town, right?

It's not like we lie because we're bad people. We're lying because we're managing our experience. We're lying because we don't want to hurt somebody.

We're lying because we don't want a reaction from somebody. It's actually even crazier. We're lying because we think we're being good. It's like literally the dark side has tricked us all that I'm lying because I don't want to hurt your feelings. I'm lying because if I said, why should I burden you with my lie? Like every last bit of I'm protecting people, I'm protect, like it's all Fakakta, right? But we believe it and we really do, but it traps us into our very traits and personalities. And if you think you didn't inherit it from your parents, you did, right? Like the lying ability, like the joke about humans is, what do we all have in common? We're liars, right? What are we not dealing with about ourselves? We're liars. Why? We defend it. to our death, even Mark, right? Even him, right? And I'm not even gonna make you tell all your lies. I'm not. But in an area you can't have power or success, whether it's your career, your love life, there's a bunch of cleaning up you can do. You're like, How clean? I'm like, Clean enough till it breaks through, right?

And it's about how to have those conversations in a way that's not necessarily hurtful, but with love. I mean, that's the...

It takes one to know one. And then it's even more bizarre because it's birds of a feather flock together. So if you think you're looking at, like, I can't tell that I'm lying to someone that isn't lying, like, honey, you're both liars, right? It's two peas in a pod. It's so much more interesting than where we go about life and, you know, what's under the hood. It's, you know, Hopefully we have a thousand years if we don't pollute ourselves to death.

So what's really amazing, Lauren, is you've taken this insight, this talent skill you have, that you were sort of born with, like Lucy, and you've refined it, you've synthesized it, you've honed it down to a set of principles, lessons, practices, tools that makes it concrete for people.

It works every time.

Abstract, and it's very powerful. And you've taken all that into distilled it into this incredible course because not everybody can get a life coach, not everybody can afford a life coach, but you've distilled all the wisdom from the Handel Method, which you've developed with your team, into this amazing online course called Inner your. Learn to Human Better. Now, don't we all want to be better humans? I think that's a great tagline. And it's 12 sessions of audio coaching from you. Yeah, personally.

Best stories I can tell. And you can tell, I can tell a good one.

And they're really good. Homework assignments. Now, people don't like homework, but this is good homework because it actually makes you investigate your inner world in a way that will lead to happiness, right?

You're gonna have to do the work, or you can listen to it and really get insights. Like there's two ways to do it. You can do the work, which is the difference between like really, like climbing the mountain or watching some, or listening to, like listening to an interview after someone climbed a mountain, right? You'll have insights, you'll think things. but it's very different if you do it.

Yes.

And the other part about it that's really important, it's really a lot of my work is how do we change behavior? It's through accountability. So whether it's small groups, whether it's things like the Daniel Plan, the churches, whether it's just having a buddy to actually do something with that creates health, it's a way of actually keeping promises. So there's an interactive promise tracker to help people track their promises and the consequences that happens if you don't keep your promises.

And you get a buddy. like you can get a buddy on the site, which is really awesome because then you can actually make a community and you could be in Cleveland or New York or anywhere and connect to people who are into changing their lives, which is really exciting.

Tell us a little bit more about the course. What are people going to do? What are they going to learn? How is it going to change their life?

So I, my first, you know, so everyone bear with me. I make accusations, okay? Like I'm a little hard, tough love, as you've figured out already. So the first accusation is that people don't dream. People don't dare to have visions. You may have a vision in one or two areas of your life, but I am daring you to have 12.

Yeah. Yeah.

And because what happens is people start to like, well, my career represents my self-worth versus learning and adventure and fun. Like people, they're with a partner, but they're not having a great sex life. So I'm not letting anyone get away with anything, and I want you to have a vision and a dream. So I start with dreaming and I get you to really understand why we don't dream. Guess why we don't dream.

Why?

Because if we said we wanted something, we'd have to do something about it.

Right. Right.

If you wanna be healthy, or if.

You want a better sex life, or a great relationship.

Right. If you tell people you wanna really run that marathon, guess who's on your diet and getting out of the bed early.

Right.

Right. So there's a part where we stop ourselves from having happiness in our lives and happiness really lives on the other side of where we stay stuck. A dream in every area of your life will get you unstuck. And until you write one and actually be with that, you have no idea how it changes your chemistry and your little cells will actually start to yearn for the change.

People feel stuck. They don't know how could I get that. I've got a job, I've got kids, I've got this, I've got that. It's how do you get through that with people?

So, next fabulous part of this method is I make people make promises. I make a joke, it's the promise land, right? Where you actually keep promises to yourself, right? Oh, that's the promise land, right? Because if you kept those promises, you'd change, which is really gonna make you happy and get you what you want in your life. And I put in this kicker, 'cause I've always needed one you could tell, I put in consequences.

Right?

So I make a personal promise.

So like truth or consequences?

Truth or consequences, right? So it's, I promise something, right? And I look, so, you know, I promise to meditate. I promise to eat on your diet, which I have kept that promise for years now, right? And I don't cheat on it. But if I do, if it's an area I am cavity prone, like, oh, I'm gonna cheat, then I put in a consequence. And all I need to do for a consequence is if I cheat on this, My kid gets 20, I have three kids. One of my kids gets 20 bucks. Anybody think I'm getting checked up on and seeing if I kept a promise today? Is it gonna kill me to give Kaya 20 bucks? Maybe. So I put in a promise and a consequence. And then obviously the tracker, someone else is holding it, right? And then that keeps me eating true to my dream.

So that's part of the program in the inner you is you actually have a mechanism where people can have an accountability, essentially, and someone's sharing their dreams and promises with you and with them and they're holding you accountable, you're holding them accountable, is that how it works?

It's completely how it works. And it's actually, you know, because the handle method is also committed to you having fun, like it's funny, it's not trying to punish you, it's trying to get you to keep your promises and deal with your dark side, your own negative inner dialogue, like why'd you eat the cookie? Why didn't you go for the run? Why didn't you screw your husband? Why didn't, like, come on kittens, like we could do, so much better if we gamify it a little and own we have a dark side that's trying to excuse us. So all of this becomes really chasing your dreams down. And if you haven't ever done that with another person, trust me, you don't know what it feels like.

So share some of these key areas because people might not be aware of what are these 12 areas of life that we should all look at and ask ourselves, are we great in these areas or are we not great? And if not, why and what can we do about it? I think everybody would say, yeah, I want to be great in every area, but people get resigned to, oh, this is just how things are about money or about health or about love or about my mother. Right, right. So what are those areas?

And so there really is your career. Money is a separate area. There's your spirituality, your relation, your spirituality in and of itself. Like spiritual, it doesn't mean religion, but whatever you want the experience of your spirituality to be. There really is your relationship to yourself. How do you talk to yourself in the mirror? Do you like being with you?

Right?

So relationship to self is usually a big one. Then there is your love life and your sex life and your relationship. There's your family, extended family. There's community, right? Out in the world, right? Everybody's complaining about politics, but what are you doing about it? Right? So there's community and whatever communities you care about. There's your friendships, your relationships, the quality of your life that comes from friendship. There's, oh my God, there's vices, right? I have a whole separate category just for your damn vices because you would like to skip them altogether. You're like, what do you mean vices? Yes, your dark side in and of itself that you complain to yourself that you still fill in the back. People get, do you have any of those?

Mine is Ben and Jerry's Chunky Monkey ice cream, which I haven't had in years, but But if it comes near me, watch out.

Yeah, it's, people are like, you have no idea as simple as biting your nails still, right, is a reason people are uncomfortable with themselves, right? So vices can be like, but you're embarrassed, you're ashamed of yourself. Like there's way people carry shame that is so like, come on, we could get through that, we can even grow your nails, right? So you'd be amazed, right? People are scared of the dentist. People have fears that plague them that they hide and then have shame around.

So the first part of this is really coming clean about where you're really at with each of these areas.

Yes, yes. And the second part is, really figuring out what you're willing to change and what you're never willing to change. I even help you understand that you're never changing that. So stop having the shame around it, right? Like, welcome to your true self, okay? Let's just fly that freak flag once and for all, not half-mast, but actually fly it. Like I have many freak flags that everyone knows and laughs at and can make fun of me in my company, my husband, everyone, my kids, right? Like I'm not changing this, everyone except, and so I don't hate myself, right? Because if I'm walking around embarrassed, you know, so you either make a promise 'cause you're gonna change it and really be true to yourself or figure out, bye-bye, stop lying about that thing. That's called a lie. Oh yes, I'm really gonna get better at emailing. I'm like, no, I'm not.

Text Lauren. If you want to reach Lauren, just text her.

You're like, Will she even spell check?

Answer is no. I send her, I mean, she's my best friend. I send her an email and I'm.

Like, Did you read him? Like, no. We are very clear, I do not read emails.

I read some texts.

Call her up.

But schedule a call. If I call her up and I.

Say, Please read that email, she'll do it.

Yes, I need forcing. All right. listening to all this, I imagine thinking, well, you know, that could be hard. You know, how do I actually be honest, number one? And number two, how do I actually dream the dream of how to get to a nine or a 10 in each of these areas? And is it possible? And people think it's hard, but you don't think it's hard. That change isn't hard.

First of all, I don't make you do all areas at once. Let's be clear. I am much slower for the individual. and I'm not, and I don't think you actually need to fix all areas of your life to change all areas of your life because you're the common denominator. And so if you just fix the one that causes you the most pain, you'd be amazed at how much better everything else gets.

Right?

So don't you remember?

I do. I mean, I remember one time I sat down with you and you were like, I said, I've got so much going on. It's all great. I don't know what to do. I have too much to do. And you're like, okay, write down what you love. Write down what you like and write down what you don't like. And I said, I did the whole exercise. I said to him, okay, now cross out what you like and cross out what you don't like and just do what you love. And I actually worked on that and it was amazing. I began to actually change.

Yeah, that's how we changed your work life. Because you felt obligated and ultimately it was B, so I told you to make the list of A's, B's and C's and why and why you felt obligated to do B's and C's and A's. And then I got you to get that the Bs and the Cs were lies.

Yeah.

And that you really could come clean and then really rock your As. And that was like, wow. Because when you're in your mind, your inner dialogue defends everything. So that's why a big part of the coaching method is how to break into your own inner dialogue. Really. If you're like, what am I really teaching you? I'm teaching you that inside that head of yours is a shit GPS. And so back to making change, Right? And that it's not that hard, right? We think it's hard because our mind actually is into our vices. You're like, you,'re telling me the reason I will suffer is so I could say a martyr and work hard and never come home and not avoid my ex wife. Like, oh my God, you think it's all connected and if I just start telling the truth in one area, the whole thing starts to fall apart, change and get better. The answer is, Yes.

Yeah, it's true. I mean, I see, for example, I was sort of traveling so much and all over the place and really struggling because it was great stuff that I was doing, but it took a toll. And I decided I wanted to do things where I don't have to go anywhere. And so I created this podcast where it's in my apartment. People come to me, I wake up, everybody shows up, I just sit down, and it's so easy and I have a whole team behind me doing everything that Is the hard work and I get to do the fun stuff. And it's just amazing and it's kind of worked out.

And you found your business partner that you loved.

Yes.

And you had a deep dream about helping hospitals. So Cleveland Clinic got your love. And so you picked your A's.

Yeah.

And, you know, here we are.

Yeah, and it requires saying no a lot, which I don't like to do.

That is not your best.

And that was, you know, one of the lies I told myself is that I didn't do everything, that I wouldn't either be a contribution, that I wouldn't be relevant, that I would fail, or that it wouldn't be enough, or that I had to please everybody who asked me to do favors for them. And I just couldn't do it all, even though I want to, but I have limited time, energy, and. And actually getting smarter about having more impact and taking care of myself in it all and doing the most important things. has been really satisfying.

Yes. And for anyone who's listening, it's, you have the same answers in your life for you. And I have never met a person who couldn't face what they weren't facing right now, and that the life on the other side is a hundred times better, and you're worth it. And if I could sit with you, I would make you.

Yeah.

But this is as close as I'm getting to you. So Mark and I are like, making you, did we make you yet? I hope we did. But if we didn't, right? But like, it's all about you deserve it and you have to be your best friend. You have to actually, you know, one of the lines I use is I'm rebranding, repackaging, remarketing the soul to itself. So it starts to kick ass for itself, right? Instead of believing the dark side, which.

Is fear, Well, you know, my favorite books when I read when I was young was Walden by Henry Thoreau. And one of the lines in there was, you know, most men live lives of quiet desperation. And you're all about busting that whole thing up and not letting people just live in this sense of desperation and inadequacy and not able to have what they want. And we can't do everything all the time and have everything we want. But there's a way to actually, you think we can? I'm working on it.

I want you to know that once you get past where you've trapped yourself, life can get very fun and spiritual. And one of my lines is, I need rainbows.

Yeah, well one of the beautiful things is that you've really emphasized for me, which is that if you are clear about what you want, if you set your intention, if you sort of align everything inside of you toward that goal or purpose or dream, and you're. And you're doing it for the right reasons, that stuff happens. It shows up. Magic occurs. And, you know, what do you call it? Megilla magic. It's all the time where you have Serendipity and the things that actually start to flow. And you're in the state of flow in your life, which is way more fun and allows so much more possibility.

Yes, and that's in Inner your, just for the ones that are horrified and scared that I'm gonna make you tell the truth to your mother. The answer is you'll make that choice, but you'll hear how it works and why it works and it will massage into the right direction.

And you have this amazing knack of being able to look at somebody and see where that pimple is or see where that spiritual vertebrae is out of line and know exactly the adjustment. you know, you do it in a way that's, it's really hard stuff. Like, and I'm saying, you know, eat this and feel good. You're like, I'm gonna change your way of being and thinking. And it's, it's a powerful skill you have, and you do it in a way that's funny and loving and easier to say, how do you swallow bad medicine? Well, it's actually good medicine, but it tastes bad.

Where you and I come together is the person who thinks they can't love broccoli. The way they think they love a chocolate croissant. I call that dumb. Because who just said that? Oh, wait a minute. I know who said, you said that. Wait, it was that voice in your head that said one is better than the other, and that you're not the master of your own voice in your head. I think that's unconsciousness. I believe at the at the precipice, like the most important thing is to be in love with broccoli. Like it's the yummiest thing on earth, right? Like love your sex life, love that, like be at the source of the voice in your head versus, I just going to report on it, right? I can't help it. I've always been this way. This is like, and so I break in.

And you make people laugh at themselves.

Oh, oh my God. I get you to get it's all dark, right? Like, can you believe how much we've sold out on being dreamers and chasers and lovers and spiritual and great for a damn cookie.

And it's not therapy. Therapy is often somber and deep and brooding and long. And you're all about getting in there, doing the job, getting out.

Rewiring. I'm a rewire.

And all of a sudden it's not actually so hard.

It's brutally actually easy. The more upsetting part is how quick it is.

You're not like, Tell me more. You're like, Don't tell me more. It's your story in your head. And let's see what's what's wrong with that story and how to fix it?

Well, it really is. You're telling it over and over again so that you can get, you cannot deal with what?

It's a payoff, right?

Right. Beyond belief, the way you live in your mind, if it isn't making you happy, it's got epigenetics in it. It's got some, which I make a joke, you know, oh, you have the Eppies. Your mother's on her third marriage. That explains why you kill all your mothers.

Well, that was the same Joyce said to me. When I was doing things like being negative, you'd call me my mother's name.

Rick.

My mother was amazing. She died last year and I love her, but she could be negative.

She could be negative. Explain why she couldn't get on a treadmill at all and needed to eat the fried chicken.

So it was, you know, she was a depression kid and there was a whole lot of stuff going on there, but it was, It was just funny. And I would see that trait in myself, and I was like, oh, no, that's not how I wanna show up in the world. And it's really helping people get connected to what they really want as opposed to what they think they can have.

And let me fix this one thing. Like, to be in love with Ruth and to love your mother is to be the evolution of her, which is not to complain, and to really understand that she did the best she could. She passed you the baton, and now it's your turn. opportunity to take it further than she did, right? So my mother, you know, my joke about my-- I have a million jokes about my mother. And they know her mother. And we really do know them. And I love my mother, right? But my ability to even just hug someone well is a revelation in my line, right? To be caring, to play with my kids. I need a promise and a consequence if I don't, which is an evolution of my mother, right? So I have my mother's dark side, too.

Right?

And so it's evolving our lineage in honor of our lineage. Yeah, it's cool.

Let's just go there for a minute because something you talk about a lot is this idea of lineage.

Yes.

And the historical sort of evolutionary development of our soul and of our emotional life and our thoughts, our behaviors, they're not just random. They come from this evolutionary process through the lineage of our ancestors, not just your mother and father, but it goes back and back and back. You know, we know biologically now that if something happens to your grandmother, let's say she was exposed to pesticides, that that would mark your DNA in such a way that gets transmitted to the mother and the grand kid. And so you're literally at the effect of what happened generations before in a biological sense. But you're also talking about this in a spiritual sense, the epigenetics your spiritual life. Can you talk about that?

Yes. So, I mean, I once got, when I went to discover the science, it was because I got horrified by a client and got so spooked out that it was like electric shock therapy to me that something is so in the water, right? Like, come on. And it just began, like I already was studying personality traits come from your parents. How's your vantage? Are your reaction to them? Are they the same? Or is it, you know, Or your mothers or your fathers. Like I went somewhat in, but now I double down.

But the beauty part about it is that in order to really shift it, you have to understand where you came from and you will allow for this process in the work, in the inner you and all your work to heal the lineage so you don't have to repeat the sins of your fathers and your mothers.

It's unbelievable.

And it's something we just automatically inherit, but we're not aware of most of the time.

And it's even a spirit, like think of the spirituality that if you go back to the beginning of time and that the sins or the deadly sins, whichever you're into, are repeating so that the next generation actually resolves them, not so that they keep repeating and punishing everybody. So it has like a Dante's Inferno meets the Torah meets the Bible, meets the, like it's all there to clean up the past in honor of the future, right? Evolution. And that whether you know it or not, whether you know where your parents lived or not, whether you know what they did in their sex life or not, if you don't know, it doesn't mean it isn't happening to you.

So tell us the story of working with a client that you feel like is one of your biggest successes. how that shifted them and maybe even you.

Well, first of all, I hold people's dreams. Like if I make a dream, no dream, no dream, no dream, no dream, no dream. No, is that your best?

Right?

So the privilege of my life is that I get to hold and all my coaches get to hold people's highest dreams and then make them do it.

Right?

Like, I'll get you to keep your promises. Right? So, okay, so imagine there, I have never Like, I would get killed. Like, this is, I get in trouble, like, you know, if you ask an Academy Award moment, like, which dream wasn't good enough for you, Lauren? And I'm like, sorry, they were all good enough. I thank you all. But, you know, I love the stories of some of the children that were born to, like, the 42-year-old woman who never thought she could have a baby, who had to leave her bad marriage, to go get pregnant.

Yeah. Right.

And is.

Yeah.

And defied everything and could not be more in love with her man that she didn't know she could get and get knocked up.

Like, what?

Yeah.

Right. So I have like crazy miracles. There's a guy. Right. This was like my latest favorite story right now.

Hi.

He literally utterly cleaned up so many things in his life about his behaviors, his vices. and his money dreams didn't just cut, like his business money dreams didn't just come true. They are scaring the living bejesus out of him, right? Like into the 400 millions, right? He was already doing well, but the more we cleaned up in his personal life, the more his business dreams happened in ways that like, Lauren, do you think it's connected? I'm like, sorry, cookie.

Right?

We have a nickname for his dark side, right? I'm like, Larry's never allowed back in, right? And he knows damn right, right? It's epic.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So one of the things that I think you talk about, and your nephew Harrison has a great song about this, which is integrity. And I think that means different things to different people, but for me, it's about being aligned in every place in who you are so that you're not compartmentalized, you're not telling different stories to different people, you are in integrity not just with other people but with yourself in a way that allows you to feel free. Because if you're not in integrity, whether it's not actually following what you really want in life or whether it's lies that you're telling yourself or lies that you're telling other people, It creates a level of unwellness. It creates a level of spiritual and ultimately physical sickness. And I think they're connected. So can you share what you mean by integrity and what is it and how do we get it?

So, you know, this is like back to you, like I'll start with the scariest.

And by the way, all this is in the inner you.

Yes, yes. And I like tease, like I tell really good stories for you to get why it's a good idea, even though it'll scare the bejesus out of you.

Well, I was scared of you. I was scared of having to be in integrity in my life, which I wasn't in some areas, right? And like in my marriage, I wasn't.

Feeling like I was integrity with what I needed or wanted. Yeah, and you had a lot of places you felt guilty versus had all the conversations. And so like, and then every time you have one of the hard conversations, even though it's hard, you feel so much better about yourself. You just didn't even expect how good you'd feel. So that's the good part. Integrity, so first of all, I teach personal integrity, right? And it's an ability to really have your thoughts, your actions, and your feelings aligned with your highest self, with what you really wish to be true for you about life, right? Like no one's coming to save you except you, and no one's coming to live your ideals except you. I'm not offering you my ideals, I'm offering you your ideals. What are they, right? So you have you actually have to learn how to say all this stuff and live transparently.

What?

Like there's nothing that I've ever done I'm keeping a secret about to anyone, not my children, not my parents, not my co-workers, not no one. Like I represent who I really am in life. And that is self-love.

And you're also unapologetic about the things where you don't want to do.

I've apologized everywhere. I believe I owe an apology. And I love apologizing where I'm breaking a promise to someone that I promised. Right? And I, I end up, are you kidding? Ask David Zander, my cute husband.

In other words, if you, you are not the lady of the kitchen in your house. Oh, oh, oh.

Right?

And you, you do a little cooking, grilling and barbecue. Barbecue.

Maybe.

But, you know, but you are very clear that that's not an area where.

It's your freak flag. I fly my... So I am true to myself about what to expect when you're like, what to expect with me. And I've made all my promises. So David, my kids, everyone gets to ask for what they want, and I give them what they want, given who I am and who I'm not. And it's delicious.

Yeah.

Yeah. And most people aren't willing to do that or even know that they can or think through how to.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, I make you do all that.

So most of us aren't even aware that we're out of integrity.

No, most of us don't know we're lying everywhere, actually.

And it's not like lies like, you know, you tell somebody, well, I went to the grocery store when you actually went to bed on the horses. It's not that kind of lie.

Yeah.

They're different kind of lies. Can you talk about what kind of lies you're talking about?

So the majority of the ways people lie is they have secrets they think to keep. Like, I'm taking this to the grave. Like, this is mine. This is my secret life. This is, these are my secret thoughts. This is me hidden to myself. I don't wanna burden anybody. I don't think it's anybody's business. Of course there's what my mind is saying that no one should know. I'll carry the weight.

Yeah.

Yeah. All that shit is lies, right? You're like, really? You don't think your husband should tell you what he's thinking that he's not saying? Or you're like, no, you keep all that to yourself too, honey. Or is real intimacy telling the truth about everything in your mind and what you're dealing with? So people defend secrets and people defend not hurting people's feelings. So I don't wanna tell you, I'm mad at you for this. I don't wanna ask my boss this. So withholding information and pretending you have to be a particular way to keep everybody happy, your mommy, your children, your husband, your co-workers, Even the taxi driver gets a liar out of you, like a fake you. So people are running around pretending. I have language for all of this. Like your agent is out in the world, not the one you really are, but the one you represent being.

Yeah. And.

There is a process for unraveling all that, right?

I make you only do it in relationships that that really matter to you? Like that, like you don't feel as close, like your husband, your children, like I'm not telling you to clean up every last relationship in your life, but wherever you're not, you know, you wish you were making more money, you wish you had a more intimate relationship, your sex life is boring, right? Like you wish you had something you don't. What you'll find is that tagline I use, maybe it's you, and then you're not willing to have the conversations or do the work or the thinking to get to the other side. And all fear is the dark side. And as far as I'm concerned, we're very dark because we're believing in our weaknesses.

I think that's fair. I mean, the fear part is what keeps us from telling the truth. And yet, most of the time, the fear is in our heads. And I know my wife, we have this agreement about how we interact with each other, which is no fear, no filter, and no dust, meaning We don't want to leave dust on the surfaces of our relationship by cleaning up everything in real time and having these conversations. And sometimes those conversations can be awkward, they can be hard, but once you build the skills, like anything else, like when you do your first push-up, forget it.

Can you believe you're in a marriage where that's the rules? That was literal. I feel very successful right now.

Yes, thank you.

Mark's in love and it's real and he's sharing the principles that when we found you, not happening. It was literally, I came home, can't say, like it was literally, and you were right, because if you said everything, you'd get divorced immediately.

Yes.

Right? Versus if you say everything, you fall deeper in love.

Yeah.

Oh, I just did.

And we always come out the other side, closer, more connected.

You do.

And we both, you know, have areas where we don't wanna be completely straightforward, because we think it's gonna create conflict or separation.

It isn't going to, it does.

No, but if we tell the truth, it does. No, but if we tell the truth, Yes. It goes away.

Well, if you tell the truth, it goes away and you can deal with what's making the conflict without hurting each other that there is one.

Right.

But there's a specific methodology for having those conversations. And you have to have agreements about it. And you have to have a method for actually how you speak, how you listen, taking turns. I mean, it's a very specific process.

Trust me, it's module like six through eight in the handbook.

You can't just go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you did this and you did that. It's like that ain't gonna work.

Right?

That's literally what you have now.

Right, and so that is a very different thing than just blurting out every stupid thought you have. It's really about being awake and conscious of your own experience, but like be honest about it. Like this hurt me and this is why and like, you know, like there's a level of getting each other that is really powerful.

Well, most people are not, most people don't even understand what being in love is all about, right? And so there's a whole part, once you start to dream what being in love is all about, then you owe it to yourself and your partner, right? Not just he owes it to you and he's failing. It's like you both have dreams, you both need, there's like a series of conversations that get you both to understand your, like we have language, like your laundry list, what you need, making all your requests, figuring out if you have a freak flag, you're never making those agree, like there's all this language to get a person to actually go through step by step on how to do what you're talking about.

It's true and you know the link for me, which is fascinating, is that that, you know, we talk about health. I talk about health. This is called the doctor's pharmacy. You know, the pharmacy in your body and your pharmacy between your ears is the most powerful pharmacy. I mean, voodoo medicine, you can kill people just with a belief, right? And we do that to ourselves. And then we literally poison ourselves. We're not even aware of it. And there's a way out of that. And you talk about personal pollution. as a concept, and we are subject to that. And I don't think most people are even aware of it. I don't know how to deal with it. And by actually cleaning that up, you literally liberate a whole set of healing mechanisms in your body that are physical, but they're connected to the spiritual doorway. So I go through food and lifestyle. You go through the sort of the spiritual, emotional, psychological doorway, but they're part of the same package.

It's so true. It's so true. It's though I think I have a much harder job. Like, hey, telling your lies is fun.

And everybody knows they shouldn't eat that extra donut or that 17th Oreo cookie, but most people are not ready.

Yeah, most people don't realize the reason they're eating the cookie is 'cause they're lying, right? And they're not getting laid and they're not having fun. Like, they don't realize that what they're eating comes from, you know, so I have a great new client and he's on day probably 58 of eating completely on your plan, completely. And he's like, his line to me is like, you,'ve ruined emotional eating for me.

That's good.

Right, you've ruined. I cannot believe how much you've ruined it.

Right.

Right, I don't even want it. I can't even believe my mind even thinks of it. disgusting. What have you done to me?

Right?

And now he's like, he's in love with his food he is eating. And he can't even believe the connection between inner dialogue, emotional eating, and like loving what you eat.

I mean, you know, some people just have like a physical issue and they need to, they don't know what's going on, they need to fix it, but sometimes they're not. And I send those people to you and it's great for me to have that place to send them and send them to inter you, send them to you, you. The actual you. It's really satisfying for me because as a doctor, I see where people get stuck and I know where I can't push that needle. And I sometimes channel you a little bit when I'm with patients, but it's not the same.

I want to put a warning label on everyone. My coaches are much kinder, slower, and less snarky and obnoxious and in your face than me.

-Well, that is the thing about this method, is there is a lot of flavors, right? -Yes. -And the Buddha talked about this concept of upaya, which means skillful means. How do you find the right way to speak to the right audience? If you are speaking to a group of children, it is different than speaking to a group of monks than speaking to a bunch of CEOs or, you know, everybody needs a little bit of a different frame. So, I gave a talk last night to a whole group of CEOs and hedge fund managers It's different than I'm talking to a bunch of doctors. It's a different conversation. So you have to learn how to actually match that. And you're able to do that. Your coaches certainly do that. And sometimes though you-- I don't exactly.

Do that very well.

You can be coached to do that.

I have some issues.

Lauren, don't yell at this person, please. Because-- Lauren, this is not-- I'm like, what?

Wheatgrass isn't for everyone? No. No.

Well, it's good. For me, I needed the hammer. I needed somebody to yell at me. I need someone to to kind of make fun of me, to break open with love and humor the places where I wasn't willing to look at. So it's like, how do you get to your dark side laughing and just kind of realizing how silly it is?

Well, don't worry, I am very self-deprecating, which then equalizes whatever crap you've got. I certainly make it funny on my end because I win the dark side, you know, leashed awards.

Right?

Like, my dark side's leashed, right? I'm on a leash about everything, right? And if you heard my, like, my grossest vice, everyone, brace yourselves.

What's my grossest vice, Mark? You like to smoke cigarettes.

Ew.

Right?

You're like, ew, Lauren. And I'm like, yes, it's disgusting, isn't it? But I have, like, the littlest allotment that I'm allowed to have. But on those days, no, not even.

A few days a year.

The few days, I get 13 days a year. And everyone looks at me like, you,'re disgusting. And I'm like, yes, but if I can tell you, tell my kids and be proud of myself.

Right.

Yeah. 13 days a year, I can eat ice cream.

That would be okay.

I think, what do you think?

I go for like one. Well, it's whatever you love.

I put it in there and tuck it. It's called the juice. It's called the juice something. It's not juice, it's ice cream.

Ever since I've been on your diet, the only way I really get off your diet is if I'm in Italy, France, like I have to be in some epic foodie place in order to.

Eat bread and pasta. That's right. We actually went to Italy together and I saw you eat pasta.

I did. And I loved it. It was like, but I, so I'm allowed to get off my leash, but under very real like law.

Well, I remember that we took this long walk. We had this monster meal. We didn't order anything. They just brought everything. And I ended up in a food coma in bed the afternoon, but it was worth it. how fun is that? We drank a bottle of wine. But you know, that was a.

It's like one every seven years.

Yeah, pretty much.

You came back, you gained a bunch of weight.

I did. I gained like how to gain four pounds in three days.

Right. I gained five and then that was it. Then you go right back on your diet and you're back to normal.

Exactly.

So it was epically worth it, but it's very rare that I let my dark side freak flag, fly, but I'm not ashamed of it. And so everyone, whatever it is, you wanna have a Sunday where you binge watch your Netflix, right? Like whatever you do, earn it versus it takes you away from being happy in your life. So it's like I really flip the dark side into a very different state of using it to make good happen. Right? So it's a fun rewiring of dark and light in your life and being true to yourself and not lying anymore about anything. And could you imagine the human race if we flipped it?

Be huge.

What?

Yeah. Right.

So what you do in a sense is medicine, right? It's spiritual medicine, it's emotional medicine, it's psychological medicine, it's life medicine, and it's a piece that often gets neglected in the wellness world. We sort of jump over, it's like premature transcendence of the stuff we really have to do to be healthy. It's not just doing 30 days of yoga in a row, because you can still be screwed up doing that unless you deal with what's really happening.

Yeah, no one knows how to tell, no one wants anyone to hear their inner dialogue. And then if you had to put your inner dialogue on a microphone, You'd have to face, I could tell you everything going on. And I could tell you where it's your Eppies, I could tell you where it's you, I could tell you where it's your vices, I could tell you where you sold out on a dream. And so if you want to actually be true to yourself, you're gonna have to break into your mainframe, which is your inner dialogue, 'cause it's all right there, inner you.

It's true, you know. And how to human better is a great tagline because I think most of us aren't connected to how to be fully expressed and fully human. And that is really the magic of your work. And it's not something that we really take on as humans. We sort of go through our lives in a way that's pretty unconscious, most of us, or we pack things away in little boxes or corners and rooms we never go in. And it eats at us, and it doesn't allow us to have vibrant, healthy, alive, connected lives. that lead us towards things that are important to us, whether it's the work we wanna do, whether it's love we wanna have, whether it's the money we wanna get. And it's pretty special stuff. It's not easy, but it's sort of the missing piece for a lot of people. And I encourage everybody who's listening to think about the areas of their life where they're not in integrity, where they're not telling the truth, where they're not exorbitantly happy, where they may be a three or four instead of an eight or nine or 10 on their scale of where they are in that area their life? And how do they work through that? Because most of us don't have the tools. I write books on what to eat. Okay, well there's a set of guidelines of how to do that, right? And be successful. And it's not that hard once you do it. But most people don't have the map of their spiritual life, the map of their emotional life, the map of their psychology. And somehow, somewhere, you got this download from the universe of that map. and I don't think it was through studying because I know you don't read many books.

You heard I never read a book in my life.

I don't, I think, you know, some people just get struck and I think you're one of those humans who's gotten struck by how things actually are. It's like the veil is off. You know, simple see things that nobody else can see.

I, and, and I'm in love with humans, right? I do not think, I think humans Comedians suck, but they suck because they pretend they don't in ways that individually you have a lot of personal pollution and you can yell at your kid, you could yell at your mother, you could yell at everybody else to change. But hey, what about you?

Right?

And I'm in love with people telling the truth and how funny it is. Like that's why you go, why do people love comedians?

Right?

And it's like, because they're telling the Right? Because they're horrifying us on all our stereotypes and all the ways we're a jerk and all the ways we don't ask for what they literally are telling, why we're howling is because we hear the truth, but we don't tell it to ourselves, but we laugh when we hear it. This is how to tell yourself the truth to yourself.

And it's not as hard as you think. You know, and I've done workshops where I had patients who are like, Look, I'm addicted to sugar. I eat a ton of it every day. I crave it all the time. I don't know how I'm gonna stop. This is impossible. I've tried. I give them the method. Three days later, they're like, I don't understand. I don't want that anymore. It doesn't look like food. I don't have cravings. I feel good. I lost 10 pounds. I think it's same with your work. It seems daunting in a way, but it's actually not. It's actually pretty simple if you just do it, right?

I have a client right now.

You don't actually have to believe it. You have to do it.

I have a client right now who got in a bunch of Me too trouble, okay? And he and I made him make, and it was years ago, but he and I made him make a list of all the people he really owes apologies to. And he's got, it's, forget it, he's fine. It's already embarrassing. It's already terrible, but he never took the time to go clean up his own mess. And he's go, and he's, he was hot, like you're like, How many sessions did it take before he would do one, like before he would make the list and get he had phone calls to make?

Break, right?

And it was like, and he's now on, like he's addicted to how much better he feels because the ladies, like any of those ladies, they were also in some position that like they need to hear it and they also have something to say. And it's beautiful, like it's so much more beautiful than people understand or just get horrified and run and put it in a compartment. And so it's like he's addicted now to getting it all cleaned up. He's not he has a promise with a consequence like for one a week and he's done four in one week.

Wow, impressive.

Okay, and trust me, that's scary.

All right, well this has been an amazing conversation, Lauren. Your work is extraordinary. I encourage everybody to go check out InterU. And the good news is, if you're listening to this podcast, that you get $75 off the price. All you have to do is go to handelgroup.com/markhyman and learn how to human better with Lauren Zander's online coaching course, Inner U. You can sign up with your special coupon code, which is HYMAN100. I hope that's not how long I'm gonna live, 'cause I'm shooting for 120. So it should be HYMAN120, although my friend Dave Asprey goes 180. Why only go 120? Okay, but HYMAN100 and get $75 off. You can also just wanna explore this. You can talk to one of their coaches for their group coaching. or their individual coaching. Again, handelgroup.com/markhyman, you can check out their work at hglife.coach online and learn all about what they're doing. Sign up for Facebook and Instagram. It's all there on our homepage in handelgroup.com and I am so pleased we had this conversation because I think a lot of people are going to be helped by this.

It's deep, yeah.

Check Inter you because it is the bomb and not everybody can get access. Maybe there's no coach in, you know, Des Moines, Iowa, but here you go with Inter you. It's just been a huge game changer for me using the method. It's led to my extraordinary happiness at this point in my life, which wasn't always there. My career is where I want it to be. My marriage is, there's still areas I'm working on, but it's a whole lot better.

Yeah, you're honest about all that.

So this has been the Doctor's Pharmacy with Dr. Mark Hyman and Lauren Zander as Place for Conversations that Matter. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a comment. We'd love to hear from you. Sign up for the podcast anywhere you can get your podcast, iTunes, Google Play, and share with your friends and family on Facebook and social media. And we'll see you next time on the Doctor's Pharmacy for another conversation that matters. Don't forget, there's a way to listen completely ad-free. With Hyman Plus on Apple Podcasts, you can enjoy every episode without any breaks. Just open Apple Podcasts and tap Try Free to start your seven-day free trial.