Choosing the Right Traditional Media – Episode 6

This is CPG Insiders, the podcast that helps consumer packaged goods companies survive and thrive in business. Now your hosts, Mark Young and Rob Taylor. Welcome, everybody, to CPG Insiders. I'm your host, Mark Young, and my partner in crime here, Rob Taylor. And today we have a guest from Jekyll and Hyde from our agenc, which is Jeff Peterman. Now, Jeff Peterman has got years and years not giving away your age here, but years of experience. The gray hair might give it away.

In the world of media.

I know they can't see it, but if you could see it, he has fabulous gray hair.

It's pretty fabulous.

So what we want to do on today's show is we want to talk about media. And for a consumer packaged goods company, how do they pick the right media? Now, obviously, just to set the stage here, obviously budgets have a lot to do with that.

Correct.

So assuming we're talking companies that are advertised on a national level, if the budget is very small, obviously things like television are not going to be in play. But let's talk about some of the basics. So, Jeff, I'm going to. I don't know, I think I'm going to approach this from a product standpoint. What do you think?

I think that's a good approach. That's how clients do it.

Yeah. So in the world of consumer packaged goods, we have products that might be replenishment products. So replenishment product would be like shampoo or conditioners or toothpaste. We have, you know, beauty products. We have products that would fall more in the first aid category. So from your standpoint, Jeff, different media work better depending on what the deliverable is. So let's start with television. What's the right application for television?

Well, you're looking for great reach. You're looking for people to connect with it on a visual and an audio basis.

So you can get very emotional.

You can get very emotional. And most of the time with, obviously with television, you usually consume it in your home, and that's where you most likely consume your consumer packaged good.

So let's expand on that just a little bit. So when we talk about, what we're really looking at is how can we get media where we can give you a message that's as close to the point of either the time you will use it or the location you will use it.

Right.

So if it's product people use in their home, then television is one of the really good mediums for that.

Television is a great medium for that.

Television also carries a lot more credibility, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. Especially if there's a celebrity that lends credibility to it.

But television in itself, even just being on tv, relays more stability and reliability to people.

That's correct. That's correct.

Does that cross ages? I mean, we hear every once in a while that nobody's watching TV anymore or people don't watch cable tv or how does that apply to millennials, which everybody, of course, wants to talk to?

Well, millennials are certainly using less TV or less basic television. They are cutting the cord. But we're still seeing 70% millennials watching television. You don't say now it is dropping. It is, it is dropping. But it's about 70% right now.

But the stories that television is dead are grossly over exaggerated.

Grossly over exaggerated.

Headline.

If you would watch the television over the last three or four weeks and saw the elections, the commercials for the candidates, it was on all the time and overwhelmed it on all networks. Yeah.

And commercials aiming at young voters.

At young voters. At old voters.

Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's just a misleading, headline grabbing thing that people hear and they don't really dig into it. So I just wanted to sort of nudge you on that one. My wife's a millennial. She watches more TV than I consume, by far.

Now, Rob, let me kick this over to you for a minute. When you're creating a TV commercial, you're not just creating for the big screen anymore, Right? Because television doesn't just mean the 50 inch TV in my living room anymore.

No, I mean, we, when we make a spot, we look at it from all angles. Like, how would it apply on social. You know, it's essentially we make the commercial content for where we think the viewer will be, whether they're their phone. I mean, my wife watches, what is it? Xfinity, like their little app. So she'll watch that. So you could reach her there. You're still reaching. Or watching the show she recorded for the television. She just happened to be watching it on her device.

And most people are viewing with multiple devices also.

Yeah, yeah. What is it? Close to 80% of people have at least two screens.

Correct.

And you guys both do that?

I don't.

I don't really.

Yeah, I used to, I used to do that more. I mean, I'm not on my phone a lot if I'm watching something, so.

I have this thing about I always have my iPad sitting on the footstool and I can't help when I'm watching stuff that I grab it to look things up. Because I'm always looking to see if it's valid.

If that's correct, I'll do the same thing. Or if I'm watching a show and I want to see if an actor has been in something else with another actor, I'll run and get my phone and. But then I'll put it away and watch.

Yeah, I'll do that from time to time. Now I'm more focused on whatever I'm watching, if anything.

Now, Jeff, when we talk about television, how's DVRS having an effect on TV commercials?

DVR is having a huge effect, especially when you DVR in the first couple days, you're still going to get the commercials and sometimes it's unskippable, but certainly after, if you're viewing a program a week or two later, it will be, you can run right through the commercials.

So when you're doing a media plan for somebody, is there, is there things that you do to try to get around that dvr?

Well, one of the things we do is run on news networks. Most people don't DVR news. They watch news and are engaged with news.

Would the same be true for, let's say sports?

Same would be true for sports. The exception obviously would be entertainment channels where you can watch a NCIS or a Big Bang Theory or something like that.

Yeah. And record it and zip through the.

Commercial to the commercials.

Okay, so let's look at now let's go to the next medium and let's talk about radio.

A great radio for cpg.

Now, radio. Now not very many people use radio in the CPG business. And I think one of the reasons is because everybody kind of has it in their head that I need to see the package, I need to see what it looks like. And also when we think of radio today, you know, it used to be we thought of radio, we thought of AM&FM. Now we have AM, FM, XM, now we have podcasts, now we have Pandora, we have Apple, we have Google Play.

Traffic and weather radio too.

And just a massive array of podcasts.

That's correct.

So how do you deal with that and what do you do for cpg? What's your best game in radio?

Well, I like personally Sirius Radio for cpg. It's extremely cost efficient. You can buy multiple demos, multiple channels to reach your variety of demos. The other thing about radio is it's the, one of the most recency oriented medium that I can say stop in at a Walgreens or a retailer and pick this up right now. And especially with the Health products that we do.

So Rob, talk to me a little bit. Jeff just said recency. Talk to me a little bit about the whole recency model. Because we always hear in media, we always hear about reach and frequency and we're going to get Jeff to explain reach and frequency. But that third leg on that stool that nobody ever talks about is recency.

So when we're crafting content or script for radio or we're essentially encouraging them on their drive home, not always, but often trying to reach them as close to a point of purchase or opportunity to purchase as possible. So we're trying to hit them almost like the direct response call. Now, you know, it's pull into a CVS or pull into a Kroger if you're meal planning tonight and pick up product X. So it's trying to reach them as close to either the point of purchase or the point of use. As a. Like with TV you use it in the home, but with radio it's I know you're in your car, I know you're on your way somewhere, so maybe I can tweak you just enough to get you to change course and buy the product.

And most likely, if your CPG product is available everywhere you are within a mile of a retailer.

Retailer. And I'll ask this question to either one of you. So when we're, when we're talking about recency, the statistical side of TV commercials or almost any ad is that people need to be exposed to an ad anywhere from four to seven times before they're going to get it. You know, the first time it's like, what was that? The second time it's like, oh, I know what that is. The third time it's like, oh, well, maybe that applies to me. It's that fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh time when somebody says, yeah, you know, I think I'm going to get that now recency, when we can snag people at that point of need, does recency help us negate the need for recency?

I understand your question correctly. I think it does. I mean, we use radio for reinforcement and impulse purchases. And if we have a full blown campaign with tv, radio and the like, recency will negate the need for frequency. Especially, especially in a health kind of product. Right.

And where I'm going with that is for smaller consumer packaged goods companies who don't have enormous budgets, frequency is not always easy to get. But back to Rob's point, when you're using this doctor kind of, this direct response kind of media, if you also have a Very direct hitting radio spot or TV spot. If you can hit somebody right when they need it, you can reduce the number of times they need to see it, which is really important for a company that doesn't have a massive media budget.

Correct.

So the example would be it's cold outside and it's winter and we run a commercial on Sirius XM that says there's a new cough medicine out and this cough medicine will do this and it will do that and it will help you or it's special for your kids and you're on your way home to take care of the kid, the sick kid. Pull into a Walgreens or a cvs. Now go to the cough and cold aisle and look for. And Rob, I think one of the things you always do in radio is make sure that you even describe the packaging and where to find it.

Yeah. Whenever possible, sometimes products are located in different parts of different stores, which make it a little more difficult. But in any case, when there's time, we'll describe what the box looks like or what the bottle looks like or something that gives them the visual cue so they can go in and find it a little easier or taking the thinking out of it as much as possible.

Now, we've had some great experience with xm. I mean, we've literally had some huge product turnarounds. Jeff, what about terrestrial radio, AM FM radio? I mean, do you see any place.

For that nationally on AM FM radio? What I typically do is look for national hosts to voice. If we have the budget national host to voice the spot. Usually the hosts have a huge following and if they believe in the product, people will listen to the hosts and go follow the host and pick up the product.

So like a John Tesh or Sean Hannity or something like that.

Something. Something like that. And it really goes along the Same lines of 30 years ago when a local celebrity like in the Detroit area we had JP McCarthy and Dick Purton when they said go buy something, their loyal listenership would do that. The same thing with, oh, I can't think of the guy with Charles Osgood and Rush Limbaugh with Snapple.

Limbaugh is amazing. I can tell you that. We've used Limbaugh in the past and would it generate 1100 phone calls in 15 minutes for one of our clients? I mean, it's just phenomenal. I mean, just broke the system.

Correct. The other thing about recency, I mean, if we're talking about, we're talking about health products and stuff like that, but even with a packaged food product. If you forget to take something out or prepare something for dinner, the recency aspect is pick up a refrigerated side or pick up another product for your family.

What about traffic and weather? Because I know you like traffic and weather.

I love traffic and weather.

Where is it good and how does that work?

Traffic and weather is good, especially when a campaign or a brand has had a little bit of following. The traffic and weather radio is a 10 second or 15 second commercial. Now, the nice thing about that, and Rob may not like this, but 15 seconds gets you. You must talk about the product and where to get it and the benefits of it without the fancy music and the creative flowery words. You need to get right to the point.

And those are live reads.

And those are mostly live reads. Correct.

So the beauty of those, if I understand. So traffic and weather, the majority of traffic and weather in the country is controlled by what, one or two companies?

One or two companies. One of the companies went out of business, but there are others jumping. Yes.

So when you go to buy traffic and radio, traffic and weather, if you're buying the whole country, you're probably buying 15 or 20 radio stations per city, right?

It depends. It ranges from 12 to, in a big city, 12 to 20.

Yes.

Small city wouldn't be as big, but like a Detroit or in New York, you'd have a lot of cities, you'd have a lot of stations, a lot.

Of stations reaching all formats and. Yes.

So one of the other reasons you like traffic and weather is because that's the point when people don't push the button on terrestrial radio.

Well, they don't push the button. They actually turn up the volume to listen to the commercial. Especially if they're in a weather situation or traffic situation and they're stuck in traffic and they will turn up the volume to find a route to get away. And immediately connected to that is a commercial usually read by the host that is giving the traffic report.

Now, Rob, he's talking about doing traffic and weather in 15 seconds. What is the normal length of spot that you like to see in radio and on television and what are the.

Exceptions for, in your mind for consumer packaged goods? I like 30s, usually you can get to the point quickly enough every once in a while. 60s. If we're talking direct response on the radio, we need at least 60 seconds. TV 60 or 120. You know, it depends on what we're doing.

If we're trying to sell direct to the consumer.

Consumer. Right. But if we're selling some sort of brand hybrid Direct response, but not direct. If it's a product available at retail and we're using those mechanisms, 30 seconds will usually get the job done pretty effectively. If it's a new product, that might be a 60.

Is there ever a time for either one of you where you might use 15 second TV commercials?

Absolutely. And there are some creative ways to use 15 second TV commercials. I wouldn't necessarily use them right out of the box. I think you need to, especially with a new, an unfamiliar product, you need to lay that creative groundwork. But we've used 15 seconds effectively bookending the commercial. So at the beginning of the television commercial break, you'd have a 15 second commercial and at the end of the break you'd have that same 15 or a different 15 for the same product, and that bookends the commercial. Well, if you will.

Now, last month, over 70 million people listened to a podcast here in America. Obviously some of those people are listening to a podcast right now.

Both of them.

Yes. That's a big deal. When you think of 70 million people. That's now exceeded satellite radio, that's exceeded Pandora, that's exceeded Apple Play. That's enormous. How does podcasting play in and is it the same as radio? Is it different than radio? When's it best? When is that best to bring in the play?

Well, podcasts again go along with the idea of a host, a familiar host, voicing a commercial on the client's behalf. Podcasts are point and radio, typically. I want to hear this person talk about it.

Yeah, they're very host loyal.

They're host loyal because they're appointment radio and they usually listen to the same podcast if they like it daily or weekly or monthly.

Yeah, you don't accidentally land on a podcast. You have to go pick it, select it, download it, turn it on, where.

I may accidentally fall on a Rush Limbaugh. Rush Limbaugh or traffic report. Okay, now the good thing about podcasts is loyal listeners. One of the negative things about podcasts is there just are so many that you have to pour through which ones are the best ones for your, for your product.

Isn't there, you know, a handful of podcast networks though, where you can buy, almost like the Clear Channel back in the day where you can buy a group. That is my complaint about podcasts too. From messaging stamp. It's almost like websites. There are millions of them. Most of them have very few listeners or visitors, if you will.

That's correct.

And it's just hard to find good one with enough listeners to make it worth Worth the while?

Well, and a lot of podcasts don't have advertising on them. But yes, right now there are two or three large companies that dominate the podcast rep world, if you will, and those that information is a little easier to receive and they're able to break down the audience, age, sales, and who they're actually reaching. The problem is once you get past those 600 or 800 podcasts, then you need to search for them on an individual podcast by podcast basis and hope they take ads. And some of them often are very difficult to get information from because they're really in the business of podcast as opposed to the business of advertising. Advertising is oftentimes a second or third thing. So it's. There are more and more rep firms that have a group of podcasts, but right now there are two main dominant ones.

So I host a couple of other podcasts and one of the podcasts I host has a much bigger audience than most. What I find interesting is we have, I don't know, 350 episodes that are in the can and there's never a day that someone doesn't listen to every episode. So one of the. I mean, that just blows my mind. There are people who will go back and listen to episode one every day. Somebody listens to every episode. So one of the things about podcasts, if you're in a big podcast, it's.

Not a one and done spot, it's evergreen.

So it can, it can be. People can be getting that message for years to come. Now if that's a good show, if that's a big podcast. So another thing that people talk about, Jeff, is print. Print is dead. Newspaper's dead. Magazines are dead. Everybody's getting everything on the Internet. Nobody buys paper anymore.

Right? Not necessarily true. Maybe you younger people don't buy it as much.

Nobody's watching TV or reading anything.

Correct? Correct.

A bunch of zombies.

You're all reading books on the Kindle as opposed to, as opposed to a real book?

I don't use a Kindle. I use an iPad.

They even make Kindles anymore?

I think so. They don't make.

No, I don't anymore. That's it.

Kindle still going. But anyways, Jeff. So print isn't dead.

Print is not dead. Print is sometimes on life's port, but print is not dead. There are plenty of publications that we look into that still have a very, very strong print presence. One of the publications we look for older consumers is a magazine like Parade magazine.

So let me go back to podcasts for a minute and I'm going to tie this back to print. One of the strengths in podcast is you can find a super, super narrow niche.

Correct.

So if I want to find somebody who's into ketogenic diet, because I sell a ketogenic diet drink, I can find podcasts that are about keto dieting.

Correct.

Print gives us that same kind of ability sometimes, right?

It does.

If we want to find seniors, we can go over here. If we want to find people that are into automobiles, we can go over here.

Or runners. Or runners.

Right. Or people that are into dieting or. So that's why I kind of brought you up to the speed on that. So go ahead and go back to what you're saying with Parade.

Parade is a great publication to reach a senior audience. It's a familiar publication. It's been around for 50, 60 years or more and you still have an older audience that reads the parade from COVID to cover. Unfortunately, it's a pretty easy read now because it's only about 12 or 18 pages sometimes.

Now Parade is a tabloid.

It's a tabloid and it's found in your newspapers on Sunday, So it comes into Sunday newspapers.

So obviously daily newspapers are taking a heavy hit.

Daily newspapers aren't taking heavy hit.

And the average reader of a newspaper is how old?

60, 62.

So we're reaching, so we're definitely reaching that senior market. So Rob, when you're creating ads for the seniors in, in publications like Parade, what are you doing? What kind of messaging are you finding is really the best?

First and foremost, we try and identify them. You know, we essentially use the word senior, older Americans or something like that in a headline or in the early part of the copy. It's a 500 word count piece and it's very problem solution focused.

So you look using advertorials, not display ads almost.

I mean, I forget the last time we did a display in a Parade that was independent of an advertorial.

So these are articles.

They're articles and they're written, you know, 75% of them is about some sort of newsworthy problem, if you will. Right.

And it's. Right, you don't even say the name of the product until the very end?

No. And we've put more non product related content up front than we used to. You know, we used to split it about 50, 50. Now it's, you know, much closer to 60, 70, 75%, unless it makes sense. You know, sometimes it just makes sense to put it in sooner. Sometimes it's alluded to sooner. But you're more talking about this newsworthy problem that seniors have.

I think one of the big differences when I look at display ads and I look at what you do with advertorials is display ads, to me, are about the product and advertorials are about the reader.

Yeah, it's about the person. It's done. And, you know, we're selfish animals. That's what we want to see.

So you're using a headline where someone says, oh, that might concern me. I'll read further. And when they start reading further, you're giving them real content. You're not just saying, buy my product.

You're giving them information that they can use or learn from or ask their doctor about, or ask their doctor about, which is pretty common.

And then what my mother does, and.

Then provide ourselves as a legitimate solution to whatever the problem is. And it's not even, you know, it's not something we would do in TV where we tend to hit them over the head a little bit more with some sort of very direct command. These are gentle, gentle introductions of a product into somebody's life. That's probably the best way to look at it.

And you're giving them content that is of value to them whether they buy your product or not.

Yeah, I mean, you could stop at 75%, and your life should be a little bit more informed at that point.

And I think it's important that for advertisers that they start to understand, you know, for the past hundred years, we've lived in this environment where we could shove our message in front of people, where we could, you know, because if you wanted to watch the three television networks and there was no such thing as a dvr, so if you were going to watch, you know, Johnny Carson or Uncle Milti, whatever the case is, you were going to have to watch the commercials. Today, the viewer is so in control of the media now, because I can decide when I'll watch tv, and I can decide if I want to have the commercials. And, you know, Even with Sirius XM, I've got, what, 200 choices on my channel.

Correct.

So as advertisers, we need to stop just pushing stuff into people's faces, to Rob's point, and start to give them messages where they realize we're there to enhance their life. The best advertising, I think, is not just focused on. We're just gonna go push a bunch of product. I think it's focused on. We're going to tell a relevant story to the right demographic because we have a product that can enhance their life.

Yeah. And it might be a relatable story or it could be in an entertaining sort of way, but it's something where you see yourself in the message. Hopefully, if we're doing it the right way, you see yourself somewhere. If it's a 30 second commercial, you see your family, you see a problem that's affecting you or somebody you know. And so it hopefully is providing some sort of enrichment and then a solution. So we're, I mean, granted, we're here to sell products, but there's a way that to do that that isn't a blunt force instrument.

I wanted to get back to the question about is print dead or dying? Parade magazine, for example, reaches 20 million households every single weekend.

It's huge.

It's huge. I defy you to find a television program on a weekly basis that reaches 20 million households.

Yeah. Super Bowl.

We're talking Super Bowls. Or we're talking. This is still a good luck finding a podcast that reaches 20 million people.

This podcast will probably reach 20 million.

Probably so. And I feel very honored to be here, but because I was in Parade last week and so print is not as dead as we think it is.

So we've done Parade in the past. Not that I'm here to sell Parade. I'm not. One of the things you need to know about us, as the three of us that work together in the ad business, we're very media agnostic. We really don't care what media works. We care what media is appropriate, what.

Media is appropriate and what media drives consumers to our shelves to pick up production.

But I can say that when we've used Parade in the past, we have emptied stores up.

Yeah. Parade is amazingly effective.

Yeah. And it's not a campaign you can do day in and day out. It's only something you can do maybe every quarter. But when it hits, it's devastatingly good when it's done right.

Correct.

Now, what about other types of print? What about magazines and such magazines are.

Still a viable medium. Those fashion magazines are still very strong. People still go through the consumer magazines, the fashion magazines people. I was talking to a couple millennials a couple days ago and I asked them, what publications do you actually read? And this was a little over 30 year old guy and he reads Men's Health and Men's Journal and he doesn't read it online, he picks up the publication.

Yeah, I actually prefer the magazine.

Yeah, me too. I still subscribe to probably between six and eight magazines that I read every month or at least flip through I.

Really like Hog magazine.

Of course you do. No, seriously, Barbecue magazine.

No, it's not a barbecue magazine. It's about motorcycles. But it's actually a really good motorcycle magazine. Really good motorcycle, too. So magazine. Now, overall, when you're buying media, whether it's television, radio, print, so a client comes in and the client comes in and. And you have to come up with a media plan. What's the type of things you want to know? What are the things you want to know?

First, I want to know what the budget is. I want to know who the target audience is. If it's a CPG product, I want to know, are they in all retailers or are they in a limited amount of retailers on a regional basis? I want to know the seasonality of the product. Is there a seasonality?

And Rob, when you're creating the creative for this campaign, what are the things you need to know?

A lot of those same things. You know, who am I talking to? What problem are we trying to solve with the product? And you know, you can solve a problem with mashed potatoes. So, you know, you use that word loosely, but, you know, who am I trying to talk to? And that's usually where I start. And then you try and sort of weave your way into an answer. It's not always easy. Honestly, that's probably the longest part of it, is the thinking about how to reach them.

And sometimes the best solutions are not affordable. We don't have the budget to do it, so we need to tweak the budget, right?

Yeah, sometimes. Some of the things I look for. One of the things I always look for in the product right away is I'm always looking for what's unique about the product compared to anybody else.

And how can we separate it from a competitor?

Right. How do we find that point of difference that makes your product better, unique, different?

And sometimes there isn't one. So we have to figure out a unique way, communicate.

Sometimes we need to kind of create one or tease one out.

But also sometimes from a media standpoint, we try to mirror what the larger competitor is doing, let their media money.

Work for us, and what Jeff means by that. I'll give you a couple of examples. So sometimes you might have a client that has a modest budget against a client with a big budget. So an example would be, and I'm going to use. I'm going to use mouthwash as an example. So you have a $10 million budget, $12 million budget selling dry mouth. Then we have a client that comes along with competitive dry mouth. We don't try to spend all the money to teach people why they need this mouthwash. You just run ads adjacent to the other company's ads who are already teaching people they should buy dry mouth. And then you're saying, hey, do you have dry mouth? Look, I've got this extra feature in my product and literally letting the other company do the work.

Do all the work. Correct.

We had a, I don't know if you guys remember this. Remember the campaign we did where we drafted off of a drug? So we took a campaign where there was a hundred million dollar campaign selling a drug. We had a client with a topical over the counter alternative. We literally told people, have you seen all these ads for taking pills? You don't need to take a pill. You could just buy this stuff and killed with it. Took the product to number one just by drafting off of them. Another thing that we look for sometimes is especially for clients that have smaller budgets, sometimes we try to find a niche for them. And one is, can we find just a, not just a demographic but a certain group of people who would really be passionate about their product where we can get some ownership? Or two, can we find a medium that we can be effective in where their competitors are not advertising? So maybe you have a category where everybody in your category is spending heavily in TV and that may not be practical for you because of share of voice. So Jeff, I'm going to ask you explain share of voice for people so they understand what I'm saying.

A share of voice is how much advertising is being spread out to the, to the consumers. An example might be Pepto Bismol would have huge share of voice on television, whereas a smaller competitor shouldn't even attempt to go on television to fight Pepto Bismol.

So a share of voice would be, folks, let's say all the companies together in a category spent $100 million.

And if you only had a million dollars, your share of voice is going to be minuscule.

1%.

1%.

So your share of voice is 1%. So what that means is these consumers are basically getting hit with 100 messages and you're one of them. And those other 99 messages have a tendency to railroad over top of your one because there's more frequency.

So we need to find a way to get away from that and go into a medium where we can have a higher share of voice.

And this is where stuff like Parade and podcast and Sirius XM really pay off. Because in the case of a podcast, we have 100% share of voice in that show, usually we're 100% or 50% maximum. In worst case in parade and usually 100. And in Sirius XM. A lot of these consumer packaged goods companies don't go there. So we have the opportunity to at least own. We can't own these people in their home because it's too expensive. So we'll own them in their car. We can get ownership of them in their car and we can tell them where to stop and buy our product.

And close to 100% of Sirius's 35 million audience is a lot greater than 1%.

Absolutely. Because I can hear the spot several times on Sirius.

And that's affordable. That leads to the frequency. Right.

It's affordable to get frequency on a Sirius xm. So we're much better off if a client's budget is $10,000 for the week. Let's say we're much better off to run something on Sirius and let people hear that message a few times than we are to go buy them three TV commercials someplace. In most cases.

In most cases, that is correct.

And there's always exceptions. So, Jeff, the last one I'm going to ask you about in traditional media is outdoor. When is that appropriate and what do you use that for?

Outdoor is used a few different ways. Back 30 plus years ago, we used it as directional billboards. We had a client that was based in the Detroit area, but also had stores in outstate Michigan. And people were familiar with the stores in the Detroit area, but they weren't familiar where the stores were in in outstate Michigan. And we put together a directional billboard campaign as they were driving on the expressways to northern Michigan, two miles to this exit for this familiar product they were familiar with in Detroit, but they didn't know where they were in outstate Michigan.

It's like a recency play, essentially.

It is a recency play.

Are you much of a fan for using outdoor for consumer packaged goods?

Not a big fan for consumer packaged goods. Most of our consumer packaged goods clients needs to see POS numbers immediately. And outdoor, when not used on a directional basis, is more of a branding.

Now, the last thing that we haven't covered yet is the digital side of it. Exactly. Just like traditional media is television, print and outdoor and radio and podcasts and things of that nature. The digital world is not a monolithic item. It breaks into many, many different categories too.

And it's also like the wild, wild west right now.

It is. And it's one of those places that can be very effective. And it's one of those places where people who know more than you can bamboozle you into losing a lot of money, Correct. Quickly, very quickly. So on the next podcast, so the follow up show to this, Rob and I are going to bring our digital media director in and we'll start covering some of the digital side. So stay tuned for that. That will be the other half of the media information. Now by the way, if you have any questions about media when you've listened to this show, feel free to contact us. Jekyll and Hyde Advertising, you can always reach Jeff Peterman here. You can reach Rob Taylor, you can reach myself. We're happy to answer your questions. You don't have to call up here and you know, send us a check in advance. We're always happy to help entrepreneurs and always happy to talk to people. And that's going to be it for CPG insiders. And next episode we'll be back with digital media.