Dr. Sarah Marion Part 2

Foreign.

Welcome back to another episode of CPG Insiders. We are extremely excited for today's guest. We gotten to so many fan fantastic topics and we just had to dive in more. So we're going to talk to Dr. Sarah Marion. Now. For those of you who were with us last episode, you already know who Dr. Sarah is. But for any new listeners, Dr. Sarah Marion is the director of syndicated research at Murphy Research. She leads Murphy Research's State of Our Health syndicated tracker. Now, this tracker is the largest ongoing food and fitness tracker in the U.S. so the information, the data that she gets on consumers and how they are, how they're acting, how they're purchasing food products specifically, and then all the biometric data that goes off with their activity, it's phenomenal. So we had to have her back. We're super excited to get into it.

So.

So let's jump into the episode. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming back, Sarah. The first episode was incredible. We've gotten so much out of it. We have so many people that love the show. So we had to have you back. So thank you so much for coming back with us.

You're very welcome. I'm very pleased to come back.

That's fantastic. So today what we wanted to talk about was a lot of how Internet shopping habits have changed. And as it directly relates to a lot of what we talked about last, our last show with consumer health, their meal sourcing habits, even how mindfulness, maybe it's playing a part in this. Is there more intentionality, things like that? So just to kind of kick it off, what are you seeing so far in the Internet shopping habits? What's going on? What are consumers doing right now?

Yeah. So we measure Internet shopping at a really high level. So both in have you shopped for groceries at an online retailer in the past three months? And then also, how important are various types of mobile options and online options to you when you're selecting where you go shop? So do you want delivery? Are you looking for online ordering? Do you want mobile payment? That kind of thing? And what we've seen is that, I mean, that was growing before. Right. But like so many other things, the pandemic really accelerated that trend. And I think so early on, you know, the grocery store was a scary place. You're going to die if you went. And so it makes sense that a lot of people in those first few months of the pandemic across all demographics were looking into this new thing. But I think what really happened is that key to that acceleration was that because it was so scary to go to the grocery store. A lot of people gave online grocery shopping a shot that never would have gotten involved otherwise. Particularly older people. Boomers, and then women had always lagged behind men in terms of online shopping, too. I think part of that is because women are more likely to be the main shopper of the household, feel more responsibility over making sure that the meat is right, the produce. You know, that's what we hear people say they want to make, they want to pick their own things, but also they just like to go shopping. And that's true. That's true across all demographics. But you see it also more from boomers in terms of their barriers to trying online shopping. So now a lot of people tried it that would otherwise never have tried it. And I think a lot of people who've been watching this space have been waiting for this. Because once you start doing online grocery shopping, once you get over that first trip becomes really easy. After that, it becomes kind of a sticky habit. But it does cost more. The big question we've been wondering is, would these people go back to their old habits? The answer is yes and no. So definitely across the all age groups, across men and women, more people are looking for those online and mobile options when they're choosing a store now than they were pre pandemic. And it's higher among younger people than older people still. And so that's the yes. It's that it did bring a lot more people into this space. And a lot of those habits stuck at the same time. A lot of those older consumers, in particular boomers, but also to a certain extent, Gen X. We now see them going up and down with waves of the virus. A lot of them picked it up through 2020, and then starting in Q1, 2021, when the vaccines came out, they went back to the store in person. The online, the mobile ordering, those things cease to be as important to them. You see them pop back up again last winter when we had another big surge. But that's not true at all for younger consumers. So millennials in particular, who we should. I think it's always important to say millennials are now not kids. They're the oldest are my age, which is 41. So 26 to 41. Those are millennials. These are working families. They got little kids. They're still certainly many of them are young. But if you're thinking of prime age, working, busy adults with families, you're thinking about millennials. They've continued to climb. There has not been a ceiling yet on how important those things are in selecting a retailer. And this I think is a big deal because it means that now that habit is really stuck for them and that more and more and more are jumping onto that bandwagon. And that means also that it's a trend that's going to carry through time.

Yeah, absolutely. Are you seeing that there are any particular categories, product categories that it's having more impact on than others?

So our data doesn't go that deep. I can give you some like anecdotal and kind of qualitative point of view. I think it's. So we know that for online shopping typically consumers use that for the fill in trip. So it's items they always buy. But it's not the big stock up trip because that becomes kind of unwieldy to do online. But it's also, and sometimes it's picking up just a few items, but depending on all of the fees or whatever, there's a trip where that cost benefit ratio works out. And I know that in my household and for other people that I know that trip is the, it's the midweek trip when you're out of a bunch of regular staples, but you need to have them and it's like maybe four bags worth and you don't want to go, you're tired, you don't want to go after work. That's the busiest time of the week to go to the store. The lines are long, the parking is bad, you have to drive in rush hour traffic which is now back to regular levels. So way easier to just order that. All the items are already pre populated in your list because you buy them all the time. Just takes a few minutes. And so now we do that every week and I know a lot of other people who do too, sometimes multiple times a week.

Yep. Well, I mean as you're seeing Walmart plus is coming out now, Amazon is opening even more DCs for food so they can start doing delivery. It is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. So one of the questions that I was wondering because you mentioned it a little bit earlier about the reasons why consumers did like to go shop, which some people, it is an event. I mean I have an 80 year old aunt who this is like one of the biggest things she used to do, you know. So hey, this is, this is great, you know, going to the hair salon, like these are the things I should put on the calendar. Right. So outside of those, you talked about people who like to pick out their own vegetables, their own meats. So how do you think has that comfort changed? Because you're saying that more and more of the younger crowd are buying it. So is this something that you're seeing that people are just, they're over it, They've had a good enough experience. Every once in a while they're like, okay, I trust it enough.

I think it has especially for again, a certain type of trip. And then when it doesn't, I think that consumers save. We know that when they're shopping, like I need a lot of meat for the week or I need a lot of produce for a week, that's when they go in person. But I think they're willing to buy a few things again for this, like fill in trip that are acceptable for somebody else to get. And you're willing to accept like a wider range of quality because that still is a problem for online shopping for sure. And we hear about it qualitatively and you know, if you've done it, you know about it. Personally, I have. We order broccoli a lot and every time we get broccolini instead.

Oh yeah. Oh, I know. My wife takes care of the online shopping. I prefer. I'm still an old geezer here. I'm like, no, I'm going to the store, I'm touching it, I'm feeling, I'm buying it. That's still me. I haven't gotten over that. When it comes to food, other categories, totally fine with shopping online, prefer it. But when it comes to food, nope, I still want to be in person.

I think there's also a comfort level that is different by age. And so that become like touching and feeling and picking your own becomes much more important for older consumers. They're more likely to feel like they have a lot of knowledge around that kind of thing. What's the best product to get. Whereas the younger you are, you've like just in terms of years, you have not been shopping for as long. And so whether you have less knowledge or simply like don't care quite as much about getting the perfect tomato, it's more reasonable for somebody else to pick that out for you.

Yeah, no, that, that, that makes sense. So I'm, I'm curious too. Has this shift in online shopping changed? If you have the data on this change, the food choices people are making, has that changed at all?

I think it does, yes. Similar to what we were just chatting about offline, it makes people more intentional. So again, a lot of this is qualitative, but when we talk to people about how they shop online, they prefer it for they save money because they're not buying those extra impulse purchases. They're more planful about the list so that it encourages them to sit down and think about what they're actually going to eat. Because you have to then go search for all those products rather than just walking through the store and having the products suggest themselves to you. And then also, so fewer impulse purchases, which really has an impact on those front of store categories. And the things in the cash line or the checkout line rather spend less money more intentional. You also have, depending on where you're shopping, you tend to have fewer choices, especially things that are specials that week. Or things like, I like fancy artisan bread that never shows up online. I have to go get that in person. So there's these categories a lot of times in the fresh and specials, but also categories like alcohol. So my. We have a Safeway, it's a local Safeway called Hagen down the road that has a huge wine selection. But on Instacart, the wines are only the most basic, like mass market, grocery store wines. So there's a lot of things like that that you're just not going to be able to buy if you're shopping online.

Interesting. So as you're talking about here, what this seems to me is this is putting a ton of pressure on emerging brands then, especially if you're going after a younger segment.

Yep.

Because the whole concept of making the list has become even harder.

Yes. Yeah. And there's fewer spaces for you to show your brand.

Right.

In. In store. Certainly if you're including online as in store now.

I mean, you have to. Right? I mean, you have to. It sounds like to me that brands have to shift their perception of what we call in store now, especially for that younger segment. If you're going after the millennials of the world, if that's your consumer, that's your target, then you need to understand that even your whole concept of brand awareness and your conversion tactics, your trade marketing that you're used to being able to grade. I can. I can throw that bogo out there. And I know that I'm going to get that spike, you know, for these few weeks. Well, that's changing. Because they're buying an Instacart, they're not even seeing it.

Yes, exactly.

So now you have to have this kind of dual tack, dual task it, if you will.

It sounds you're also depending on where, again, like, are you shopping on Instacart? Are you shopping, say, the stores online ordering and delivery? You're not seeing the sales.

Yeah.

So that's going to change how you shop too, because we know that people pick up a lot of impulse purchases when they're on sale.

Oh, absolutely.

And if that's the point of it.

Yeah, that's the whole point is to, you know, as a brand, spike the ball. Hey, make up some points and. And you're not going to get that impact or you can't depend on that impact as. As much when you're talking your sales projections. And also if you are in a. If you're in a more of a commodity type category that you really rely on those, you're in a lot of trouble.

Yes, I agree. And it's this. The online shopping world opens up this much larger landscape that you need a really thorough understanding of. And it goes like, platform by platform. Right. Because that's in store now. You need to know what the user experience is. Like, how do consumers actually see and select products? Are your products coming through when they filter versus search? And then even in terms of how they're presented, is. Are they presented in a way that people can understand and look at the front and the back and see all of the, you know, all of the work that you've gone into in terms of claims and ingredient lists and what's on the package? Well, yeah, and I think additionally, a lot. So like Instacart, for instance, gives you suggestions. So our products being suggested to the right kind of people. I had an order a few weeks ago. We'd been having some rough times as a family, and so I was alone with the kids. I put them to bed and I just wanted a glass of wine and some chocolate, but we didn't have any. So I ordered from Instacart, like two bottles of white wine, some bananas because we needed them, and then some cookies for myself. And then what it suggested to me was, oh, do you want a handle of bourbon and some energy drink? No, no, I don't. But if it had suggested ice cream or chocolate bars to me, I might have added those into my cart. So you want to see, like, are you even coming up for the right type of consumer? Because there's an opportunity there for those impulse purchases. But if the algorithm or whatever it is that is kind of determining what I see isn't working in that way, then you got to look.

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, the other aspect that just came to me now is as brands are approaching their branding assets or their packaging development. So in the past, especially when retail brick and mortar was the way, how you would Do a lot of your last assessments from a competitive standpoint would be at shelf. Take it in there. See how it looks under the light. See how it looks.

Look at the set.

Right. The sets changed.

Yep.

Now you have to consider how it looks through an Instacart lens or through an Amazon. Okay, so how is it going to appear digitally? Because again, that's my conversion point as well. And it's becoming, as you said, it's growing. So what would you say? Because for the. As we talk about, like the younger consumers, those millennials of the world that this is growing in, do you have any concept of where the prevalence of. For most, you would say just broad strokes of online versus in store. I mean, is in store still the Goliath and online is the rising David? Is that the best way to look at it?

Yes, I think most people still would say they do most of their shopping in store. If you're having them make a percentage. There is some blurriness there in that. I think that. So our data in terms of how many people have say they've shopped online for groceries in the past three months has not changed over the past two years. What that tells me is that they're shopping their regular retailers. And so when we ask them that, they think, oh, well, I was buying from Safeway. So it doesn't. There's some. There's a lot of blurriness in how you think about and how we ask consumers that. Because if you're shopping from Instacart, you're still shopping at a store and it's probably the store you usually shop at.

Oh, yeah.

So that tells me they're shopping their usual stores. They're just doing it with a variety of methods in person delivery and online or pickup. Rather interesting. Sorry to go back to your original question.

Which was just as we're talking so much of the preference of online, I just wanted to put it in the right perspective. So is Brick and Morgan still. Again, as I put it before, the Goliath and online is the rising David. So it's still smaller, but it is growing. So don't ignore it. Don't get too afraid if you haven't done anything yet, it's okay. Brick and Mortar's still where most of your sales are going to be, but you need to start paying attention if you're not right.

Yeah, you need to jump on that bandwagon because you're already late to the party. If you have not figured out how your consumers are shopping online, they do so in store is still the bulk of most people shopping because it's very common for people to enjoy grocery shopping regardless of how old they are. And I think one of the key things that makes online shopping more prevalent for younger consumers, aside from being more online anyway, is that it solves a problem that people like your aunt and boomers and retired folks don't have, which is just the time problem. Going to the store all the time when you are a busy working person with a family is an inconvenience, but for other people it's like the high point of the week. You're solving a problem that other people don't have. What we do see though is that this means that consumers can choose which times they go shop in person because they still like to browse, they still want to go pick out the best fruit. This week I don't trust my instacart shopper to tell me what's good this week in terms of how the oranges look or whatever. That means that you can save your in person trip for that longer, more relaxed, experiential trip. That's usually the stock up, but that's when also you get to browse around and see things. Which means that if you're a retailer, you need to be prepared to cater to both of those occasions. Right. It needs to be easy to find all those things for the online shoppers, but you also want your store to feel good to come to. When consumers do choose to come in person because they're going to have larger baskets, they're going to be looking for deals, they're going to be looking for new interesting brands. So it's that kind of a trip that they're coming in store for interesting.

So based on that concept and then this is off the wall and you probably this is completely going to be anecdotal on your part, I would say. Is there going to be. Do you think anyway for the in store shopper, is there going to be more pressure from just the consumer side to do more promotion in order to win me? Because I'm there for my stock up, so I'm spending more money. So I'm assuming that if that's the. I'm just trying to look at the data. If I'm going there to spend more money then and I know because I've made this giant list and I'm already thinking about the dollars I'm going to spend then if I didn't make the list is the only way to try to make the list is going to be to show me the value to show me how I can save because I'm unconsciously thinking about the amount of money I'm spending because I'm not going in for a couple things.

Right, that's a great question. I think that when people are going in for the stock up because that's the trip where they browse, because that's the trip where they're, you know, they're choosing between deals and prices and brands, they're much more likely to make impulse purchases then now that varies depending on your income level. But if we're talking about middle class consumers that are have enough money to buy two things because they're if buy one, get one 50% then yes, I think that, I don't know that consumers will expect more in terms of sales partly because I think again shopping online does come with additional costs, one of which is that you frequently don't get the in store discounts again depending on what platform you're using. But I think there, there should be additional pressure to highlight new brands, to highlight meal solutions, you know, the things that retailers have long done but in ways that get their attention. And that is, I think that could be a challenge because if you're arranging your store for kind of the functionality of an instacart shopper, that's a completely different arrangement than for the experiential aspect, the browsing, the looking for surprising and delighting things that consumers want when they come in.

Interesting. Are you seeing any correlation between as you mentioned before, income level and these different shopping trends? Because I think you made an interesting point there.

You know, I have not looked into that in detail. I can though we have all that data so if you want I can get back to you.

Yeah, no, I'm just very curious because as you said, I mean you made a great point that your online shopper is paying more because they're paying for this service. They're not getting the deals. So in turn they're probably paying more at times for products. So. And now that for the most part the world has opened up, do we have some of those consumers that were in that lower income segment that were doing the online shopping out of necessity? Are those, even if they're younger, have they gone back to the store because there is a financial, potentially they perceive it as a financial benefit because of those things?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I've done work on low income shoppers in the past this pre pandemic. Right. So everything has been all scraped scrambled and I'm happy to look in and like Give you a, a post, post show point of view with some, with some key stats. But online shopping really again is correlated with age. So the younger you are, regardless of income level, you're, you know, more likely to be doing that. And I, and as we discussed there are ways that you can make that work for your budget because it makes you more intentional with your, and you stick to the list better. And low income shoppers are always trying to stick to the list but at the same time they also want to get the lowest prices because they have to. And what I found is that lower income shoppers are really savvy and knowledgeable about the sales cycles of all of the food retailers around them. And so they shop a variety of stores according to those sales cycles. It was like really impressive. They're very resourceful, holding a lot of stuff in their brain and then of course if you like coupons and that you know, only adds to that. But those, the reliance on those sales cycles would I think probably diminish your chance for wanting to shop online because again you're not getting them and you're having to do having to shop a variety of stores for yourself for your, the products that you want. It's a good question though. And I'm now you've got my, my brain running. I'll go check it out and see, see what it looks like now.

Absolutely. I would, I would love to hear because you know we also, I mean in there's been a, you know, as the kind of connection point is now you've seen there's been a lot of apps that have come out that are kind of in that space. So like your ibottas of the world. Right, that came out and I believe anyway you might have information on this of how they're starting to change. So it's kind of like that intersection of the digital shopping experience but still in store and, and how is, has, I don't know if you have any information on how that side of it has impacted consumers in the way they approach their shopping journey.

That's a great question. I don't have any data on that. I mean my, my personal point of view, my educated guess would be that the, the savviness that you see that I just mentioned around knowing all the sales cycles and how to get the best price would transfer into that. So probably for a younger low income consumer, they're interested in all those apps, they're using them to do the same thing that older consumers were just keeping track in their head or on a piece of Paper, you know, in their coupon books.

Yep.

Same, same behavior, same goal in the end. So only now you can do it all from your phone. New resources.

It's amazing. So, so with these changing shopping habits, I guess, you know, we've talked a lot and we talked about a lot of great stuff. What would you say that the brands need to understand? So if there are three things, three takeaways for an emerging brand going into, and we talked a lot about the food space, what do you think the three things that they need to take away or they need to understand and plan against moving forward for success?

Well, you need to definitely incorporate online into your marketing mix and you need to again, thoroughly understand the platforms where your consumers might encounter your product so that you can make sure that it's coming up in the right ways and it's being shown in the right ways. You can't just put it out there into the store and expect that to be enough, because it's not. And at the same time, when you put it out there into the store, you might need to do a little bit more work to help catch consumers attention when they are on that experiential shopping trip.

Yep.

Which means, you know, working with your, working with retailers, you know, get the right kind of shelf space or to make sure that you're getting set up in end caps or special displays, the kinds of things that we know catch consumers attention when they're wandering around.

Yeah.

I think that because online shopping involves so much search and filter, you need to think really carefully about how consumers can search and filter for your category. The same way that you, you know, if you were putting it online, it's just SEO kind of information. Right. Does this come up if this is aligned with bakery, does it come up when people click bakery or does it come up somewhere else in natural and organic? Right. Cause sometimes those are separated.

No, absolutely. And also they need to be, I'm assuming they need to start paying attention to the keywords that you didn't think of the connections that you wouldn't make. But the consumers are.

Right.

Because that happens all of the time. Just like your example earlier. Right. That might not have been something. Ice cream, an ice cream brand might not have thought to add to the search volume or be added to that particular shop shopping cart. And it's like. Yeah, that's what consumers are looking for, though.

Yeah, that's a great point. You know, to level up, you need to understand how the algorithms work, essentially. And what kind of consumer are you aiming for, what kind of trip do you think you belong in. Do you belong in the handle of bourbon trip or do you belong in the wine and cookies trip?

No. And I think.

Or what type of consumer. That's probably easier to identify if you're. Because that data is kind of collected on the way in. So if you know that your shopper is say a 41 year old female with kids like me, have an idea of your kind of ideal consumer Persona and see if you can work that into how the algorithm works.

But I think you've made a good point though, that I think the definition of the shopping trip has now changed.

Yes.

And brands need to start paying attention to that. So the shopping trip, there are multiple shopping trips now and because of the convenience of online, as you talk about these fill in orders or these, we'll call them impulse situational orders of the wine and chocolate at times, and then your full restocking trips, you have the potential to be in all of these depending on your product and your category. So you need to start learning about depending on the outlet you're trying to drive towards depending on the retailer that you have, the product category that you have. What is the shopping trip that aligns with that retailer for my product. And I need the message against that in that environment. I think that's something that's very important for brands to take away right now, is that the message that you might have on your display at Walmart is going to have to be a different message than you have on Instacart or the Walmart plus, because it's a different trip, it's a different situation. So you need to communicate it properly if you're really going to connect with the consumer.

Yes. Yeah, completely.

Wow. It's awesome.

It's really granular too.

It is, absolutely. It has to be. And I think now you said you've brought up a lot of great things about. You have to understand the consumer, you have to understand the consumer situation, you have to understand the product category, you have to understand the platforms, how they work, how they function. So as you said, the consumer journey has changed forever and brands need to understand that they need to change how they approach it and they need to have custom solutions for all of these environments. It cannot be a one size fits all because it doesn't work that way anymore.

Nope. And it's only. This trend is only accelerating.

Right.

Especially because it's younger consumers and they have not stopped. And then we have Gen Z coming up behind who are basically the same as millennials in terms of what they want from online.

Well, and now, I mean, what we haven't even touched on is going to be the next kind of advancement that I think we see coming in the shopping journey, which is going to be the VR world. How does that impact it now? Because that's going to change you dramatically. I don't think we know how. Unless you have any information. I'd love for you to break it. Break it. But it's coming.

It is. It is coming. And I am excited to see it. We also cover. So this same data set covers fitness, too, in VR is hot news in fitness.

Oh, yeah.

Again, brave new world.

Yeah, it is a brave new world, but that's another topic that, of course, I could go on for ages with you. So, again, Sarah, thank you so much for coming back. And I would just want to say, is there anything that you want to leave our audience with, any other last message, any other last thoughts that you didn't get to share on this show that you wanted to.

Great question. I mean, we didn't touch on meal sourcing, but it definitely is part and parcel of this trend.

Yeah. Talk about it. We've got a few minutes.

Let's talk about it.

Okay.

Okay. So we have also seen a changed landscape in terms of meal sourcing, and this is again, at a really high level. We ask how often consumers cook at home, eat frozen meals, get packaged fresh meals from grocery, or dine out or get takeaway. What we saw beginning the pandemic, people stopped dining out. Takeaway went up. So kind of replaced that to a certain extent, but it was really different by gender. Women stopped dining out right away. Men took six months and then stopped and then basically started again. In the meantime, to make up for that little gap they had in dining out, men increased all of their other types of what we call outsourcing, which includes both CPG and restaurant. They increase their consumption of frozen meals, increase their consumption of packaged fresh, increased dining, or increased takeout and delivery, and then eventually came back to dining out. Whereas women didn't do that. Women cooked at home more. That made up all of the gap there. And they still have not gone back to restaurants. So they're not dining out at the same levels they were pre pandemic, even though it's definitely gone up, whereas men are. What that tells me is that the value equation around dining out is totally different now for women than it was pre pandemic. There is this, like, in terms of what they're considering when they're thinking about, do I dine out? Do I get Takeaway, whatever it is, the time, the energy, the money, all of those considerations are different now.

Interesting.

So, which is great news for cpg because they're still cooking at home, they found solutions and they are sticking with them. It's been a long time now.

Oh, and no, it's fantastic for cpg, especially considering, as you talked about earlier, that it's still that the trend has not shift when the women of the household are the primary shoppers.

And cooks usually too.

And cooks usually. So you're holding on to essentially the primary consumer you need to hold on to for your business. Right.

And so that means that they have developed new established routines and habits around meals at home that didn't exist before then. I like to, as a kind of informal survey, I like to ask people when I meet them and my friends, what is a meal that you used to eat out a lot that you don't anymore? For people who work, it's almost always lunch. You used to eat lunch out when you went to the office. But for a lot of people I know with kids, it's breakfast. We used to go out for breakfast a lot on the weekends. We don't do that anymore. It's just as easy to make pancakes and eggs at home and it's way cheaper.

Way cheaper. Way too. I, me and my wife just went out to dinner last night for the first time. We couldn't even remember because we just cook at home and we're like, wow, we just spent 80 bucks for a couple burgers. And I was like, man, I can make a better one at home.

See? Exactly. And that one, once you learn how to do that, you know, I like, I like margaritas. I never made one before. I learned how to make them during the pandemic and now I don't want to pay that much anymore.

No. Is there any information as far as any more details into these new habits for the women that have held on to cooking at home? Is there anything around There are doing more recipe based work from scratch versus meal solutions or anything like that.

We know this is mostly qualitative, but we have information about planning too. So people are planning more. A lot of younger folks, millennials in particular, again doubled down on health. So they actually as a generation have gotten healthier, at least in terms of their own estimation through the pandemic. What we see that means in terms of food in particular is they plan. They're more intentional about their choices. Again with the list about their meals. We see more people planning their meals. Dinner is always the most planned Meal, but lunch and breakfast too. So setting yourself up for success down the line. And of course that changes your shopping behaviors too. I think that online shopping is part of that. So fewer chances to bring in the types of products that then you feel bad eating later, which tend to be impulse products. I should not neglect to mention that for men, again, frozen meals and packaged fresh, they're eating those at higher frequency rates than pre pandemic too. So for them also the landscape of meal sourcing has changed in that they're sourcing more of their meals more frequently from other places. What this tells me is that they really don't want to cook at home.

Actually lazier. That's what's going on.

So they brought in a lot of other things to cover a gap that was really small to begin with. And that, that was just interesting to me because over and over when you talk to people about health and wellness, one of the biggest things they say they could do or would like to do is to cook at home more. Now we know that given the opportunity, this is a great opportunity. Only women do that. This is again, speaking very generally. I'm sure many men took the chance to cook at home. But now we know that women say that, well, we can still offer you a frozen meal that will clearly do the job for you. There's good news for CPG in there too. Among men, that's still.

And I think that you've seen it again, anecdotally, with the rise in the subscription meal services that happened, there's been a huge rise in that there's so many brands that broke into the scene. And I think as you tell by most of the messaging, it's very male driven.

It is, yeah. And they're much more likely to adopt them.

Yeah, absolutely. No, that makes a ton of sense. So would it be fair to say then that the shift not only from the meal sourcing being on the female side is going to be a more advantageous target for you, is what it sounds like as a brand, because they are the ones that are more cooking at home, are you seeing? And they're more health conscious. So are we seeing that across the board in their food choices too? That that health conscious is still taking over essentially is beating out convenience, that yes, they are making the sacrifice of buying, you know, better for you foods over the easier foods these days?

That's a good question. For women in particular, we see convenience, taste and health. They fluctuate a lot more than for men. But it's seasonal, so busy and it's Very intuitive. Spring and early summer, people really get a little bit more engaged in health. They're looking for fresher, healthier things. Taste becomes a little bit less important, whereas convenience really picks up in the fall. Then again after the holidays. So the holidays get busy and then people need. Need to rest from cooking. And women are much more subject to those ups and downs than men. And I think it's because they are the main cook and shopper more often.

Than the ones doing the work. Yeah. So they're more impacted, but that's, that's again, great information. And for our brands, as we shifted over, they need to pay attention to these seasons. They need to understand, depending on what their product is, where the hot buttons are in your communication and when to really when and how to communicate them, especially to this target audience. I mean, it sounds like the reality is if your target audience is male and you're a food product, then convenience is really it. I mean, they just want something that's easy and fits well whatever their goal is.

Right, right. It has the right seals on it that tells them high protein, whatever. You know, it fits with whatever my nutritional requirements are.

Right. It's very easy, very simple. Just tell me what it is I'm looking for and then it's easy and then you got a shot. Other than that, it's going to be a little bit of a struggle.

Yeah.

No, that. That makes a ton of sense. And is. And is there any difference and that female segment between mothers and single women, is there a difference?

Oh, I haven't looked into single moms versus moms in partnerships, but single moms are always more pressed for time. And I will say that moms, even moms versus dads, are more likely to say that time and energy are barriers for them.

That makes sense.

And so convenience is definitely a seller. And I think part of what women have learned to do through the pandemic is combine whatever kind of fresh cooking they're looking for with convenient other options and then emergency meals. So more thought and planning and stocking around the easy things to make when you just need to get a meal on the table. Because if you're a mom, if you have kids, you have to get a meal on the table, which is something that single people or people without kids don't have to do as much. And that can mean frozen pizza, but the better it is in terms of better for you, I think the more compelling it is as an option up to a certain price point. Because if you've got a family, you're also Looking for quality and quantity in a ratio.

Yeah. So if you're a food brand and you're wanting to target parents, then if you can find a way to communicate it as that healthy hack, for lack of better term, then we got a winning strategy.

Because the quick, easy and healthy, I mean, that's a winner.

And as long as the kids will eat it. Because we know.

Right.

We always know that.

That's a great point. I forgot to put that in. If you're talking about parents, these need to be things that would ideally appeal to the whole family.

Right.

Which can be difficult.

Which can be very difficult. And that's what I was curious about. In some of the segments that are possibly more premium or possibly more sophisticated, for lack of a better term, and their flavor profile, it seems like because convenience and time is such a pressure for all these parents, that previous messaging of treating yourself so making a meal for yourself and then making the meal for the kids may be more difficult right now to actually succeed.

I think so. Because part of what we heard around how routines had changed during the pandemic in terms of cooking was people had more time to eat family dinners in particular, and they liked it. They did not want to give up those family dinners knowing that as we move back into a more normal social schedule, some of those will be sacrificed. But the family dinner was a really positive outcome for a lot of parents. Making the two separate meals still happens. Not going to lie. But it's so much easier to make one meal. What a lot of parents do just as a day to day basis is make modular things, products that serve that can like work within this modular idea. Say like tacos are great modular meal. Right. You can have yours this way. You can have yours with just cheese, you can have yours with onions if you want. Everybody gets their own meal, but it's all relatively easy to prepare. Breakfast is a modular meal too. That's why it's so easy to make. But the fast, like the emergency dinner like solutions that make that easy to customize are more useful to parents than like one big bag of, you know, frozen dinner that, you know, somebody might like, somebody might not like. It's a risk.

Yeah, well. And I assume mealtime, especially dinner for parents, all about risk mitigation.

Yes. Yeah. Balancing like how much nutrition versus how much whining versus how much you want to enjoy it. And those are hard things. I mean, it's a hard thing for parents. It's challenging for food companies to come up with solutions for that.

Absolutely. Wow. No, this is anything Else on meal sourcing. This has been fantastic. Any other topics?

Well, I could go on for days about topics, but I know we have limited time.

Absolutely. No, I appreciate that. I mean, this has been fantastic. Again, takeaways on meal sourcing side. Women are. They are cooking more than men. Men are very functional and just want the easy meal. And if you can find that intersection of healthy and convenient, then home run. And that's for everyone, parents included. Hey, make it convenient. But mom's the one that's doing all the shopping. She's doing most of the cooking, so that's who you have to talk to. And she is cooking, so she is cooking guys, so that is a good thing. But her, her, her value system, when we're talking about the balance of convenience, taste, and health, it's going to change with the season. So pay attention to that. Make sure you are. You're modifying your communication appropriately to wherever the season is, because that's where their values are going to shift if you really want to take advantage.

Yes, I will say that millennial men, we're talking about parents, they're shopping a lot more than dads of previous generations. So you don't want to totally leave them out of the equation. But in terms of, like, the family meal, frequently looking for the same things, they're not going to go searching for a new brand necessarily. They're going to grab the thing that.

We always buy, and that's something we communicate to our clients constantly, is if that is who you're going after. What you just said, it is very difficult. It is so much easier for a parent to buy what they know the kids like and ate before than to try something new. So you have to win them over. That is a tough battle. It's possible, but you have to understand that that is, that's the risk that they have to choose to try something else, which after working all day, all week and then trying to get to dinner, and the last thing you want to deal with is complaining. You just want to get through them and keep them happy.

Yep. And the emergency meal is not a meal where you want complaints. Right. It's much easier for, you know, to sell single entrees because you can be exciting with the flavors. But to sell a family meal, like my mom calls it, bagel meal, but a thing like a pizza or salad kit or any of these frozen dinner solutions to get the, the value and the size and the quality that a family wants and that adult and child flavor component, you can't, can't get crazy with Your flavors.

No, no. But I think to your point, what you said earlier is if you can find a way to communicate to the consumers that this is a modular meal. Maybe some things they didn't think about before, but here's how you can customize it for the kids to love it and for you to love it at the same time.

Yeah.

That could be two sauces, right? Who knows? Who knows, right? Or just add this, add more cheese and the kids are gonna love it for you. You add more pesto or whatever and then boom, here you go. Just, you know, something like that in your communication, showing the versatility of the product. Again, going back to our risk mitigation, but also we're not forgetting about the parents. We still want them to eat something good.

Yeah.

Something to look out for in the food space. They are the buyers, right? They are the buyers. So you've got to pay attention. Wow. Well, again, thank you, Sarah. I know I've taken a ton of your time. I really appreciate coming back. I'm sure the audience has loved everything. Again, any last minute things you want to say? Any last thoughts before we close it out?

Not that wouldn't open up a whole new conversation. So let's call it. Let's call it good.

This means we have to have you back again.

I wouldn't mind that.

Oh, man, that's the worst. Well, again, thank you so much, Sarah for your time. This has been a fantastic show and again we are going to have all of Sarah's information in the show notes. So if you want to get a hold of her at Murphy Research, we'll have her LinkedIn email, we'll have all of that. So please reach out to Sarah if you have any other questions and as always, you can reach out to Mark or myself. Here at Jekyll and Hyde, we love talking to new brands, new clients. It's totally free. Love to answer any questions that you have. So you can email us or reach out to us to jnhlabs.com please go to iTunes and leave us a five star review. We love hearing your feedback and also it really helps us reach more people and help more brands. That's what we want to do. So again, thank you so much for listening today and have a great day. If you're looking to greatly increase sales on your CPG product, don't hesitate to contact us at Jekyll and Hyde Advertising and Marketing. By the way, the only advertising agency.

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