How to Improve Product Sustainability to Win Retailers and Consumers - An Interview with Christina Lampert - Ep. 44

Foreign.

Welcome everybody to CPG Insiders. I'm your host, Dr. Mark Young with my co host, Justin Gerard.

Hello. Hello.

And we are here to talk about all things consumer packaged goods all day, every day. That is what we do all day, isn't it? We're going to depart a little bit today. So a lot of times we're talking about marketing, advertising, nlp, the psychology of the business, the retailers. Today we're going to talk about sustainability and packaging and where some of the trends are. And we have a great guest today. It's Christina Lampert. She's the director of innovation for the How Good team. Yes, it's an interesting name. I mean, not that Jekyll and Hyde isn't an interesting name. Also, maybe the How Good Team says more about them. Well, maybe Jekyll and Hyde says a lot about us too.

Yeah. If you know us personally, you know that's the truth.

It is true. People often ask me, are you Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde? And I'm always like, it depends how you came across me. And I can switch on a moment's notice. Anyways, Christina, welcome to CPG Insiders.

Hi, Mark. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Amazing. Thanks so much for joining us. We want to really get into this as Mark's talking about sustainability has become a really hot trend in the CPG segment and every category. And so How Good has done a really fantastic job to really help brands out with sustainability, which we'll get in in a little bit. But Christina, you, you've, you've done a really fantastic job recently and you've written some content on the first educator advantage. Can you explain to our listeners what that is?

Yeah, absolutely. So in short, the first educator advantage is when a CPG brand educates the consumer on an impact topic that does not yet hold mainstream materiality. What I mean by that is we'll probably get into this, but we're seeing on materiality assessments coming out left and right that sustainable packaging is being ranked very high. That's obviously very material and consumers are getting pretty educated on that topic. And so the first educator advantage is kind of exploring and educating the consumer on a new impact topic.

So it's very similar to what we would call first mover advantage in marketing. And when we think about a first mover advantage, that would be an example like Apple bringing the first flat screen smartphone to market.

Right.

So there's lots of other phones that look just like it, but they were the first mover. They own the space in as much as a lot of. A lot of times, iPhone has become synonymous with smartphone, Right? Or as Kleenex has become synonymous to facial tissue.

Right.

Things of that nature.

Right. You know, Marcus talked about first mover and whether it's marketing or technology, if you will. So. But getting back to educator advantage, because this is more of. This is really education is information. So. So how does that translate to value for brands and why is it important?

Yeah, absolutely. So something that I often reflect on, right. Is in my last six years of learning about sustainability, I often reflect and I say, okay, who are the influential bloggers that I have followed for six years, right? What is the first thing that they said or that they posted that that made me stop in my tracks and say, hmm, I never really thought about that before. Right? So that's one thing I reflect on. And then the other thing is I think about the first time I ever learned about the environmental impacts of red meat, right? And I stopped in my tracks, and I have never given another dollar to a red meat company ever again. And I say, who was the person or the branch that educated me on that? Right? And it was beyond me and impossible me from a lot of the work that they've done. And so, yeah, those are just a few. Few examples of that in action.

Interesting. And so what we're seeing a lot of, and I'm assuming this lends right into it, is especially with the millennial and younger generations, that they're really starting to create different types of relationships with brands. They are really more concerned about the culture of the brand, the message, the social impact, if you will. Is this kind of leaning into some of the same space here is kind of just leaning in. More to there, but in more of an education piece?

Yeah, definitely. We've been seeing so many studies come out that millennials, 75% of millennials right now, are purchasing food with the environment in mind. And so that's something that I think a lot of brands are, yes, looking to align upon. But it's getting very crowded in the space. And that's why I think this opportunity is so strong to a study where the environmental impact actually is coming from within your organization, and then B, take measures to reduce that environmental impact, and then C, communicate that to the consumer and have this unique value proposition that is not yet present on the market. Right. And kind of cuts through all of that space and kind of positions the brand as a trusted educator and someone that they want to stay loyal to as an appreciation for that information. Right. Changing their life.

So Let me ask you to expand on that behavior of the millennial. When we say they're buying food with the environment in mind. When we say the environment, is it the impact that the packaging will have? Is it the impact on animal welfare that they're concerned with? Is it their own health they're concerned with? Can you drill a little deeper down in that?

Absolutely, yeah. I think that's a great question. And this is something that really posed the conundrum that I think is happening today where it's like when consumers think about the environment, Mark, to your point, we're seeing that what's resonating most is sustainable packaging. That's what's showing up like we talked about. However, consumers are now becoming obviously quite aware of climate change. And we need to understand where the root cause of those greenhouse gas emissions are coming from within a given CPG product. When we look at the life cycle assessments that are completed where greenhouse gas emissions are typically coming from, we can see on Hershey's sustainability report, Nestle's sustainability report, that the majority of the impact isn't coming from packaging. It's coming from the raw materials and the ingredients and things that happen during the on farm stage, which is not being educated to the consumer today. And I think I myself was very surprised when I found that out. And I think a lot of consumers would be as well.

Well, yeah. I mean, you think just from a foundational level, the packaging is the one thing that the consumer actually interacts with.

Exactly.

They don't go to the farm, they don't sit in the factory, and they.

Don'T notice that, oh, this is on a truck. And the truck has to be refrigerated, which takes more power, which makes more gas. So it's actually cost. It costs more, yada, yada, yada.

Right. And it's also ironic because it's like, okay, if a CPG has X amount of capital at hand to invest, do they apply that to what is material right now to the consumer? Sustainable packaging yet doesn't really tackle the root of their environmental impact. And not to mention, it's in a country, if we're talking about the US where in 2018 only 32% of packaging was actually recycled or products. So many CPG brands are kind of talking about compostable packaging, which is great. But then we look at the stats and, and municipal curbside composting is only offered in 0.01% of cities. Right. So I think that's a conundrum a lot of CPGs are facing right now it's like, okay, we know consumers want sustainable packaging, but how effective will that really be in terms of reducing our impact from that standpoint?

Now, what about carbon footprint? Are the millennials also looking at things such as, does the company, is the company manufacturing in a zero carbon environment or something of that nature?

Yeah, I mean, that's a great point. So I've been reading a lot of studies on this, right? Particularly in the restaurant industry, where it's like, for restaurants that have the carbon footprint next to their menu items, are consumers actually paying attention? I think it depends on the consumer. Right. But a lot of consumers aren't necessarily going to be sustainability students who understand what CO2e actually means, carbon dioxide equivalent. And so we're working with a lot of partners to, yes, assess what the carbon footprints are, but compare them to things, right? Like how does this carbon footprint compare to a conventional CPG product? How do these ingredients compare to conventional ingredients? And so I think that comparison is key. So in short, yes, Millennials are paying attention, but CPGs really need to do a good job of understanding their current understanding and then adding some sort of comparison or visual or something so that they can truly ingest it and add value to their decision making.

So how important is the sustainability story to the retailer, to the buyer? How important, you know, how much does Walmart care about this or Walgreens care about this? Because that's obviously what our listeners are thinking they're looking for. What's that edge to get on the shelf in retailers?

So this is a key question that I have had and I went ahead and I surveyed. I worked alongside with my old team at a company called Wiser, which services CPGs as well. And I really wanted to understand, like, are consumers more likely to purchase something if they have a third party sustainability certification on pack? Right. That's visible at that first moment of truth on the shelf. And what I found was not super surprising, but I think very helpful from a retailer perspective is that brands who do have either the USDA organic certification label on PAC or fair trade certification on pac, consumers are more likely to purchase those and those are the most recognizable. I don't know if that's helpful, but I think it does streamline the vetting process for retailers to be able to deduce some of those sustainability heuristics and also mitigate decision fatigue for the consumer shopping in their stores, which is helpful.

Where I was heading was when a brand is presenting their product to a buyer at retail, so the employee at Walmart that's going to make the decision, how much of an impact? If you know the answer to this, how much of an impact does that sustainability story have on the retailer? Because we know the retailers have their own set of goals for what levels of sustainability they want to reach as a company.

Yes. So this is another great point. So what we're seeing is a lot of retailers are setting greenhouse gas emission reduction targets. Encompassed within those are Scope three emissions. And Scope three emissions would be accounting for the carbon footprint of all of the products that they sell. And so if you, as a CPG branch are able to go to a retailer and say, hey, here's the carbon footprint for all of my products, we can calculate based off of your purchase volume, I'm able to give you this number so that you can account for the amount of greenhouse gas emissions derived from selling my products. That takes so much work off of the retailer and is something that we have heard is extremely valuable for helping them with that. And as more and more CPG brands start to calculate this, the retailer will be able to essentially say, oh, wow, their carbon footprint is so much lower than this competitive SKU we're thinking about allocating shelf space for and things along those lines.

See, I think of some of our clients. I'm going to use an example. I'm going to use Absopure as an example. Absopure does a remarkable job of making their plastic bottles out of recycled plastic.

Right.

And then Absolute Pure actually has their own recycling facility to recycle that plastic. So I'm going to guess and say that we could certainly talk to the client, talk to Frank, but I'm guessing that that has an impact when they sit down with Kroger or Walmart or whatever the case is, and they have that ability to say, look, you as a retailer will be responsible for less waste by carrying our product.

Right. Because the other items you were mentioning, Christina, the USDA Organic and Fair trade, those, I think those really speak to the consumer, but those speak to the consumer and performance matter as well. So those sold do a purpose, I believe, for consumers. If it's usually organic, they think it's a better product for them. Right. As opposed to the carbon footprint, which is really strictly about sustainability. It doesn't quote, unquote, directly deliver anything to the consumer. So it's about. It's a value proposition to them as opposed to performance aspect. And so it's interesting to understand from the retailer perspective, is it important for them, because as you stated before, to do all this work to possibly have to redo some of your manufacturing infrastructure or processes, that's a cost. So for our, for brands, we need to make sure they understand the value that they're getting out of it. If it's going to be that you walk into a meeting with Walmart we haven't been able to get into, and they see this, they may say, yes, that might be worth the cost.

Yeah, most, most CPG brands and it doesn't mean that they're bad people, they're great people. But most especially younger, smaller brands, when they make an investment in things, they need to figure out how that investment's going to come back to them.

Right.

Is it going to come back in the area of more distribution? Is it going to come back that I can charge a little more money? Is it going to come back that I can sell more product because I'm more appealing? We always have to figure out where's the benefit out of it. Not that making the planet cleaner shouldn't be a benefit, but.

No, no, no.

Yeah. And what we're also seeing right now, that kind of interlace with the carbon footprint, but is external to the consumer, is once you calculate a carbon footprint, let's say, or assess the ingredients, we are able to help you understand if you qualify for a climate friendly attribute. Right. So if you go grocery shopping online or even in store, you're probably going to start seeing heuristics and labels that say this product is climate friendly. And that does that same thing for the consumer. Right. It helps them ensure that they know that they're making a purchase that is in alignment with their values, which quite frankly are becoming very strong.

Now, is there a climate friendly verifiable source or is just something people put on their package?

Yes, so that's a good point. So a lot of the retailers that we work with at howgood essentially use our definition. So at how good? We've rated over 2 million grocery products on shelves already for impact. And so what we do is we say, okay, we're going to evaluate this skew. If it has a carbon footprint that's lower than 70% of the 2 million products we've evaluated, we believe that it deems climate friendly. And so as long as that definition is used universally throughout the child brands and things along those lines, we've seen that become really widely accepted and kind of a great threshold for that.

So say that again for me. You said 70% less than the category.

Average, so I will. Okay. So basically it means that the carbon footprint of the product is lower than 70% of all of the 2 million products that Howgood has assessed. So its carbon footprint is lower category, right?

Yeah. So it's in every category. It's every product.

We also do category benchmarking too, but from a retailer perspective, they just kind of want to evaluate everything.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So I've got two questions really that I want to roll into here. So we've talked a lot and I think that you've really brought a lot to light about this. And I'll call it an up and coming trend of sustainability. And I think it's going to really take off probably here in the next six months, I guarantee it. So how can brands, what process should they go into to understand how they can execute this first educator advantage, if you will, for their category, for their product to really make sure that any, as Mark stated, that any of these possible sustainability upgrades they make, as well as being good for the environment, also helps their bottom line because it's helped to run a business.

Exactly. Yes. So much opportunity here and I think it's so exciting the stories that can be told from a marketing perspective. I think the first step that I would recommend as a CPG is understanding the impacts of your ingredients and your products. Understanding, okay, which products are emitting the most greenhouse gas emissions based off of my sourcing practices and the ingredients in itself, which products are as well or on the other side, which products are scoring like incredible and have a really low environmental and social impact. Right. Either way, understanding and assessing and getting that baseline, then I would leverage an ingredient sustainability platform such as how goods and I would start to say, okay, what are some other ingredients that I could use that have less of an environmental and social impact. Right. And start to model out what those switches might look like. Then after that, once those switches are reformulated into the product or sourcing locations are changed, whatever it might be, I would say to marketing, hey, we made these switches. Here are all of the environmental and social impacts that have been reduced. I think we should tell a story on this. Right? And then my recommendation for marketing would say, okay, great, let's say you switched a kale ingredient to Moringa, right. Moringa is known to be more nutritionally dense than kale and it's also a very drought resistant crop, which is great from a water usage perspective as water scarcity increases, whatever it might be, I'd say to marketing, hey, okay, now we should do some market research. Let's get a base of average consumers across the country, hold focus groups, qualitative surveys and get an understanding of what they understand about this new ingredient already and the impacts. And then from there we'll be able to deduce what are the gaps that we can serve as an educational resource for them and kind of come up with this really strategic, motivating, educational campaign on what we've done.

So to run that back to you to make sure listeners get everything, first step is just understanding your process, your products, your ingredients. Just get a baseline of how do we do this and what do we do it with. Then connect with a partner such as how good, which we'll get into in a second, to really understand the sustainability effects that are there and also possible changes that they can make to, to improve that. Then it's all about getting with your marketing teams to start getting some more data on, hey, what do people actually understand about these possible changes we want to make and what's the hottest button that we should go after? And then let's build the story.

Exactly. And those stories are gaining so much traction with retailers as well. We see it all the time in Whole Foods. There's so many shopper marketing opportunities as well in store surrounding some of these changes. And yeah, I think it's really exciting.

So talk to us more about, about how good. So tell us what, what, what is how good, what do you do? What resources are available for brands?

Yeah, so I can speak to the brand side. Absolutely. Typically when we work with our major CPG brands, their R and D team say, hey, we really want to understand like what is the impact of our ingredients as they stand today and can you help us understand what changes we could make? Right. So the platform that our CPG brands use enables R and D to do just that. Explore new ingredients that are less carbon intensive, use less high risk water, whatever it might be. And so that's really educational and exciting from an R and D perspective. But then, as you may know, if you source a tomato from Florida and a tomato from California, both of those ingredients have very different impacts based off of that sourcing change. Right. From a geographic perspective. And so we're seeing that a lot of sustainability and Procurement teams within CPGs are also leveraging the platform to model out. Okay, great. R and D picked this ingredient. We know that it's really trendy in the market right now. Where should we source it from that has the least amount of impact. And so they can use our platform to do that too. And then marketing teams use it to say, okay, great, now what attributes does this qualify for from a product level and how can we communicate that to the retailer. And so we, we kind of put all of that into an exportable form for the marketing team.

Do you get into the transportation of the products? Possibly. So be on a train instead of a truck or whatever the case is?

Yeah, that's a really great point. Those are widely accessible through the EPA and a variety of other sources to kind of understand that because it's such a small percentage of the overall impact, we typically don't focus on that, but we do have partners who let us know what their mileage is, what their supply chain looks like and then we'll just build that into a dashboard for them to account for it.

So is the, is the team and how good just to try to get an understanding brands what their experience might be like? Is this like a self serve platform? Is this for the team that at the How Good team says great, what's your problem? And then we'll come back to you with a report. How, what exactly is the interaction?

So it is software specific service essentially part of my role is really understanding a few things. Right. Does your sustainability have environmental targets put in place that you're trying to reduce.

And track sustainable sustainability?

Exactly. So you know, that's one factor. We'll want to understand that. Another factor I always ask is what is material to your consumer and where are the opportunities there? From an educational standpoint, we can start to build a story around that. And then once we understand those couple of things, we just kind of upload all of the CPG's ingredients products. Right. So those are already available to view in the platform upon launch. And then it really kind of depends from there. But a lot of our CPG partners typically want to track greenhouse gas emissions, of course, water usage impact, biodiversity impact, land use. A big one is exposure to labor risk. Right. So they don't want the Guardian coming out with an article tomorrow on their supply chain and something that they investigated that they didn't know anything about. So we're able to kind of say, oh, this ingredient based off of where you sourced from, high exposure to labor risk and poor working conditions, if you source from this location, that risk will be mitigated for sure.

What about health concerns? When you're looking through these formulas for sustainability, are you also looking at things like products that could become possible carcinogenic or different impacts that they can have not just on the environment, but on human health?

Yes. I love this topic so much. Yeah. So that is something we are building out and is something that is certainly more material in the personal care category. To your point, yeah, we absolutely are accounting for that. That is being asked for in terms of a metric to look at as well. From the food perspective, I would say typically our partners want to look at classic nutritional metrics or the Nutra score roll up in Europe to try to get that overall sense of nutrition. So we have all of those available. It's just dependent on what the CPG wants to track and measure and look at on a day to day basis.

Yeah. One of the things that I notice, we do a lot of nutrition.

Yeah.

And the fillers.

Oh yeah.

Can be a horrible issue with some of the nutrition with, you know, magnesium steroid and different useless fillers that they're putting in that can present health problems. Especially if you have someone who takes multiple different vitamins and they all have those fillers in it now you're getting way too much of something that you don't want to be getting.

Yeah, that's a great point. A lot of our partners want to look at and see if they qualify for minimally processed as well. So that's becoming very prominent in our CPG brand and retailer conversations too. Just along those same lines. And then a lot of our partners have internal consumer sentiment scores already for their ingredients and so they'll often just upload those into the platform as well to look at everything side by side. But yeah, I think that's a great point.

As you're doing polling data and you find out people like the, I think it was the organic label or the USDA label. How do they respond if you know this, how do they respond to things such as all natural or homeopathic or you know, in the case of over the counter medicines. Any, any feel for how people are responding to those type of terms?

Yes. So let me try to pull up some results. I actually did do a consumer study on private label sunscreen and supplements. Yeah. One of the number one purchase drivers for sunscreen was clean mineral ingredients. But in terms of supplements, 60% of consumers surveyed were looking for clean ingredients. And then the second one to that was a natural label. So I don't know if that answers your question, but yeah, around 57% of consumers were looking for that natural label.

Yeah, we're really starting to see it now and we've been talking with a lot of our clients that we know that ingredients are becoming more prominent in the consumer purchase behavior. They are starting to understand ingredients more, educate themselves more. And I also think to your point, bringing it back around, that's why I think this first educator advantage is really time the Time is right now because consumers are really starting to take more control over their purchase behaviors, over the products they consume. And I think they're placing more value on education than I think they ever have before.

Yeah. From the advertising side, one of the things we're seeing that we've leaned into a little bit is sometimes the story not being about the ingredients, but being about the ingredients that are not included.

Right.

So, for instance, I have a pasta sauce who doesn't have all of the preservatives and all of the things that you might see in some of the other commercial brands. So now it becomes an educating process of telling people what's not in there versus what's in there.

Well, that's exactly right. And that's something that the first educator advantage does. Right. It instantly enables the consumer to subconsciously start questioning all of the other competitive SKUs that it's considering and saying, well, why aren't they communicating on that? Or what's their impact? Or something along those lines. I mean, that's the classic example of, like, why Last year, a 2020 Gallup poll found that close to 1 in 4 US consumers reportedly made a conscious effort to cut down on meat and the environment was a top reason for this behavior change. They started to subconsciously say, wait a minute, I don't really want to choose something that does this to the environment. I think that is so powerful.

It's interesting that the number one reason was the environment for cutting back on meat, because I could make an equally big argument for reducing meat consumption based on health.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Health was one of them. So environment and health were among the top reasons for this behavior change. Yeah, really interesting. And who was the first educator for that?

In what? In cutting down meat.

I would say impossible. Based off of their founder, Pat Brown, being cardiologist.

Yep, I'd agree with. I would agree. So to get back to how good, just to make sure for our clients, understand. So you're helping brands with complete sustainability. So not just environmental, but also on the human side of things as well. You're providing all this information, and it seems to be, I guess, what would be the first steps if a brand wanted to start a relationship or get in contact with how good.

Yeah, absolutely. So you can always reach out to me, Christinaowgood.com you can go to our website. We also have so many wonderful events on regenerative product innovation. So you can hear from a lot of industry experts in the CPG space who are doing this today and kind of start to begin establishing partnerships with A lot of other people in the system from a regenerative agriculture understanding. Like, we have events where there's category managers and marketers, and for the first time they're being connected to the ingredients and the sourcing locations of products that they're working with every day. So, you know, I would encourage you to come to some of our events. And yeah, we're at a lot of conferences as well. We'll be at Expo East, Grocery Shop and things like that. But yeah, we're happy to kind of get together, understand what you've done so far. And we'd be happy to show you a demo of the platform whenever it would make sense.

And if you go to the Show Notes at CPG Insiders with the episode with Christina Lampert, you'll find all her contact information and the URL and her email address and all those things so that you don't need to pull off the side of the road and try to write all this down right now.

Is there anything else, Christina, that you'd like to cover while we wrap this up on the topic?

No, I don't think so. But I am excited for the CPGs who do engage and execute the strategy. I think it's the first time that we've seen a strategy in the CPG world, to my knowledge, that has been beneficial for R and D, sustainability and marketing and procurement all in one, which is super special.

It's certainly becoming a thing.

It is, absolutely. And it's. And as we know these type of consumer habits, they're not going away. It's better to understand it now and get on the train today and be a first educator, first mover. You're always going to be a winner.

So oftentimes, before we end the show, I'm going to do something a little different. Never know about these things.

Oh, gosh.

So on many of our episodes, we've talked about psychology and we've talked about metaphors. And metaphor. Metaphors are tremendous vehicles for being able to make change.

Well, it's how our brains process information.

And we speak in metaphors. People are incapable of having conversations without using metaphors. So, I mean, when somebody says, I spike the ball, I didn't actually stick a spike in a ball. That is a metaphor. And without these metaphors, we're kind of like monkeys trying to communicate. Well, one of the things that metaphors do is. Is metaphors also help people change. And metaphors are a great vehicle in psychology. They're a great vehicle to get people to change. And we use metaphors in Advertising. Because oftentimes we can tell people a story where the underlying message isn't completely obvious, but the unconscious mind picks up on it. And just so you understand, what we do in a metaphor is we actually create stories that create very vivid images. And the vivid images and the detail of the story often distract people from paying attention to what the real story is. So I was going to end today's show with a metaphor.

Oh, boy.

So here's the metaphor. The metaphor is it's about two lumberjacks. One is a very young lumberjack, probably a millennial lumberjack, probably drinks Starbucks. And the other lumberjack is a much older, much more mature lumberjack. He's been at this for a long time.

Are you talking about us?

Well, you don't have. Well, you are growing a beard. There's a bit of a lumberjack thing going on.

Yeah, I don't appreciate that.

So the two lumberjacks head off into the forest, and the young lumberjack decides he is going to cut down more trees than anyone in the lumberjack business ever has. And he is swinging his ax and he's cutting trees down like crazy. He's just mowing trees down. And he looks over and he sees the old lumberjack. And it's about 10 o' clock, and the old lumberjack takes a break, and he's not cutting any trees. And this guy's like, what's up with this guy? He's not even doing anything.

Boomers.

The old lumberjack comes back out, he starts cutting trees. Lunchtime rolls around. The old lumberjack takes a lunch break. The young lumberjack's like, I'm not even going to stop eating. I'm probably, you know, he's probably into. Into intermittent fasting, possibly because he's a very young, modern lumberjack. And he just works straight through lunch, continuing to cut trees. Afternoon rolls around. Young lumberjack looks over, he sees the old lumberjack sitting on a stump. He's doing something, but he's not cutting trees. And he's like, I don't get this. What's this guy's just. He's going to be so far behind me, they're going to fire him. They're going to get rid of him when they see the difference. So the end of the day rolls around and there are two piles of trees. And over here, the young lumberjack has cut 66 trees down. It's a lot of trees. That's a lot of trees. And he's like, no one's going to be able to outdo me. And Then they go over to the old lumberjack's pile of trees and the old lumberjack has 200 trees in his pile. And the young lumberjack looks over and he goes, you've cheated. This is impossible. You couldn't have cut 200 trees down. I never took a break. You were always taking breaks all the time. And I kept cutting trees while you were not working. And the old lumberjack says, well, you failed to understand one point. While I was taking those breaks and you were still cutting trees, I was sharpening my axe. And that's the metaphor. Maybe it's about you and me. Possibly.

Yeah, I see what's going on.

But anyways, you kind of get the point.

Get the point. This is the time to sharpen the axe.

Christina Lambert, thanks for being with us, folks. Go to the Show Notes at CPG Insiders. You can get all of her information. And I will tell you that this is becoming a topic, that is becoming a thing. It's becoming time. We're seeing more and more buyers asking these questions. And this is, and I'm going to preface this for a minute, this is not about your political belief of what you believe about global warming, global cooling, sustainability. It's about marketing at this point.

Yes.

Because doesn't matter what you think is the truth. There is a group of people out there that care. And as marketers, we need to appeal to those people.

Yes. And they are making their purse decisions based on these things. So you can't ignore it anymore. No matter what how you feel about it, you've got to go all in and meet your consumers where they're at. We talk about it all the time. This is just another one of those points where you're going to meet your consumer where they're at, period.

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