Never Split the Difference w/ Chris Voss

Foreign. Welcome, everybody, to this edition of CPG Insiders. I'm your host, Mark Young. My co host, Justin Gerard. Justin, we have a really special show and a great guest today.

I couldn't agree more. This is going to be a different show. I think it's going to be a very different show than what our audience is. And I am so excited for it, truly am.

So our guest on today's show is a friend of mine. His name is Chris Voss. Now, Chris is a not the type of person you would normally expect to hear on a show about consumer packaged goods because he is a hostage negotiator. He was actually the. The hostage negotiator or a hostage negotiator for the FBI. Now, I will admit that some of you who have ever sat across the desk from somebody at Walmart or CVS or something may have felt like you were in a hostage negotiation at that very moment and you were the hostage in this particular case. But Chris, welcome to the show, buddy. And if you would tell us, tell our audience a little bit about who you are so they understand it. And I want to really encourage people to get your book at the end of this show, which is Never Split the Difference.

Thank you. Yeah, yeah. Well, former FBI hostage negotiator wrote a book after I left the bureau, went looking for legitimate employment. You know, never Split the Difference. Business Negotiation book, Principles of Hostage negotiation applied to business and personal life tests drove the concepts in a couple of different business schools with business school students who had actual jobs where they needed to get better every day in their negotiations, really for several years at Georgetown and then at USC and then put the book out. The students did well, made more money, were happier. The book has been really successful and it's been a great business and personal guidance book for negotiations for everybody across the board. I mean, literally globally. It sells well in China, it sells in Pakistan, it sells in India, because negotiation is kind of a human experience regardless of the circumstances, regardless of who's across the table. And it's about. It's about applied emotional intelligence and what it really is.

So let me paint the picture for you, Chris. Our listeners are in the business of selling consumer packaged goods. So they sell stuff that is sold in big brick and mortar retailers, right? So they have to go meet with buyers at all the big retailers. Now, in today's world, that list of people is getting smaller and smaller because of consolidation. So nowadays five buyers represent over 70% of all the retail products sold in America in the CPG class. So that would be Walmart, Walgreens, cvs, Rite Aid, Target, and now we put Kroger Albertsons in there and then we get a few regionals. So in the grand scheme of things, their entire world operates by negotiations with probably 12 individuals. 12 people. So 12 people in the, in the world, in this country will control their entire future. That's kind of stressful, isn't it?

Yeah, it's a little bit being taken hostage, isn't it? Yeah.

So, and it's kind of like, you know, we talk up here, it's almost kind of like having an IRS audit because as an entrepreneur, Walmart might say yes to your product and your product might sell $10 million a year in Walmart, which is a big deal for you, or $20 million. That buyer isn't making $20 million. That buyer is a working person, but is a working person that controls your Future during that 30 minute meeting. And I think what happens is as, as young entrepreneurs, when I say young, I'm saying new to cpg, where you haven't done a lot of this, getting across the desk from one of these buyers is a pretty high stress meeting.

Yeah.

For the CPG customer.

Yeah.

And, and the CPG vendor kind of comes in that thing knowing that they have no choice but to make a deal, which I think is very similar to you in hostage negotiating, because as the negotiator, you, you couldn't have a, you couldn't have a loss.

Right.

A loss for you was probably a life.

Right.

So you, there was no not winning or splitting the difference, was there?

No, no, no. And that's why, you know, the subtitle of the book negotiating is if your life depended on it is really applicable.

Here, isn't really is because for many of these people, for our smaller entrepreneurs, their entire life savings, their family's life savings, their future is better on this company. And a no from one of these people can be a devastating day. So start us off with is there anything that somebody should do before the meeting? Is there is. You know, obviously you want, you know your product and you know who you're selling it to and you know the numbers and you know the profitability. But what do you need to know on a human basis before you get to that meeting?

Several things simultaneously. First you got to understand human nature. Then you're looking at the human across the table and look at them first in terms of, you know, what's their job asking of them and then what is the nature of their regular interactions. Now you get a tremendous advantage regardless of the circumstances. When you understand human nature. And then the third level, the nature of the regular interactions, the regular interactions are generally combative, you know, and the buyers, the supply chain side of this, they got a tough job on, on their side. And how do you apply empathy? Start out by telling them they're a tough job. Like if you're a buyer for Walmart, like Walmart expects you to be the expert on everything from paper clips to drones, and that is just not possible. So their first default is going to be on price. Well, what they're really looking for is making a better deal. The person on the other side of the table is always looking for a better deal. Now, one of our rules involving price is that price may break deals, but it doesn't make deals. Which means you can hold your price and make a far better deal for them if you're patient, if you allow it to play out, if you don't take yourself hostage. One of the individuals that runs a company that sells to all the people that you're talking about, is that our top level of negotiation clients? Yeah, I mean, he's at the very top level. We refer to him as cohort. And they've been taking our training and they got, they're now involved in their whole organization and learning our training. He went through our cohort last year and he raised his price on all of these buyers far in excess of what he hoped for. He told me personally that moving from cutthroat to collaborative made him more money than being cutthroat ever did, because he taught his people to take the time with the buyers and focus on what terms would make a better deal for both sides. They started discovering these gray areas that made money for both sides. They got out of the normal aggravating price gouging, price attacking conversations that a lot of the supply chain people get into because they don't know how to be an expert on everything from paperclips to drones. So when a seller starts becoming a trusted advisor, being honest with them, giving them the straight scoop, and then seeking for the changes in the terms that leave them both better off. Now that's a scary thing to do because you don't know where you're going. As human beings, we're not really wired to think that way. We're wired to think about a goal and then how do we get to the goal. And this is putting the goal, the better deal, in kind of a gray area, which scares a lot of people. But if you can make the jump from cutthroat to collaborative, especially with these guys because these guys got a tough job and become their trusted advisor and not cut their throat and genuinely look for a better deal. You'll find that both of you are better off.

I always tell our listeners kind of a Dan Sullivan kind of thing, which I always tell them and get. Get your input. I always tell them to walk into that meeting trying to find out how they can be a hero for that buyer. How can I walk in?

Yeah.

How can I be the buyer's hero? And. And knowing that it's easier, it's safer for a buyer to say no than it is to say yes.

Yep.

Because no doesn't get me fired. But the. But a lot of bad yeses can get me fired.

I was going to ask you, Chris, you. You said something and maybe you already explained it, but it really stuck out to me. You used the phrase don't take yourself hostage. Yeah, that really stuck out. Now, did you. Did you already talk about that by going in? Was that the whole concept of going in and being more collaborative than cutthroat, is that the thought process behind that statement, or is there more to that? Because that's very interesting to me because I think that a lot.

Yeah, I'm glad you're digging into that because never be so sure what you want that you wouldn't take something better. What are the things that you can say to yourself on a regular basis so that you don't take yourself hostage? You know, there's a variety of things, and the first one is the acceptance that there's actually a better deal out here for both sides and you don't know what it is. That's really hard for anybody over the age of 25 to wrap their minds around, because along up to about your mid-20s, you're still discovering the world, and the world is this great adventure and you're genuinely curious. And then there's some neurological changes happen in your mid-20s, and you also start to get a little. A bit of a past reflect on, and you start making predictions about the future and you start having a certain success rate. You know, when you were 21, you didn't know what the hell the future was going to look like. You're 26, 27, you start being able to predict it, and that actually starts to narrow your focus. So one of the, you know, be gen being genuinely curious is a superpower. Like when we're coaching people, our phrase all the time is be curious. Because you're open to new things, you see things faster, you're in a positive Frame of mind. You're 31, smarter in a positive frame of mind. It's impossible to be curious and negative at the same time. So Mark, you know, to use Dan's phrase again, be a hero to the other side, then just layer in on top of this, you know, how can I be a hero to the other side? I'm genuinely curious as to what the opportunity is here. You know, there's an opportunity here. I'm here to tell you people that we coach are making better deals or more profitable deals with these buyers regularly. And the first move is, you know, I'm wondering, let me talk to this guy. I don't gotta cut a deal in a first conversation, but let me be genuinely curious as to how I can end up being a hero to the other side. Now you're in a completely different conversation with them. You're not defensive, you're not negative, you don't have blinders on in the conversation and your counterpart, whether it's Walmart, Kroger, whomever, they're going to notice a difference in you. And your approach is going to be from being defensive to defending your own territory, to actually helping them out. They're going to resonate with this on a subconscious level and they'll start to open up.

I've always found. Tell me what you think, Chris. I've always found that if I ask the buyer for advice, the buyer is usually quick to give it. And what I mean by that is I'm selling whatever, aspirin. And if I ask the buyer, what would be your advice to me on how we can best bring value to Walmart, as an example, how can I best bring value to Walmart? What, what would, if you were me, Mr. Buyer, what would you do? So first of all, technique work.

First of all, what I love about that to start with is you did what, how, what in a sequence. And you asked the same question basically with three different trick, two different trigger words, but three times. What, how, what? Any open ended calibrated question that you want to ask somebody. If you find a way to ask the same thing three times, you add depth to your listeners thinking, you help them think around it three dimensionally and you give them the opportunity to really give you an in depth answer. You give them time to think about it, you stimulate their thinking by hitting it three different ways simultaneously. That's completely different. Completely different from the yes trap nonsense, which anybody out there should get out of it. You know, asking three different yeses in a row, the S momentum yes of all agreements, the Momentum selling, you know, that's, that's crap and that is a really bad habit. And your buyers, sophisticated buyer on the other side smells that trap and immediately distrusts you if you try to get three different yeses in a row. This momentum selling nonsense has been sold at EGS as a tie down. And they got to ask, you know, do you like, would you like to make more money? Would you like to be happier? Would you like to live longer? That's three different yeses and that's a trap. And sophisticated buyer immediately distrusts you when you do that. Now your approach is the three different open ended, three different ways of asking the same open ended question three times. That's vastly different and they love it. Now the kicker is you got to listen to the answer because they're used to people asking them sellers, they're used to sellers asking them questions and then not listening at all. And they're going to smell that also. So you ask that question three times, you're gonna get an in depth answer and you better listen and you better show them that you listen before you move on to your presentation. Otherwise you just condition them that you can ask great questions and simultaneously not listen to the answer. And they're going to pick that up really quickly too.

One of the things that I try to do, it's not easy to do, but I try to do this. We all have a tendency to start creating responses as we're listening to people. And I've tried to train myself to not create responses while someone's talking. And part of that is having enough faith in yourself that I'll know how to respond when it's my turn to respond. So you have to have enough confidence to do that.

Yeah.

But if you will stop trying to formulate your response and put all your focus on the speaker, you'll get way more out of that encounter.

Yeah. Now how do you, how do you, how do you bridge that gulf? You got to practice it in your daily life. Like and I, and I love and we, you know, you know, maybe I learned it from you, from osmosis. Because we've actually given people a specific technique of three different open ended questions. Three open ended questions, asking the same thing, three different ways. Bad depth to somebody's thinking and then shut up. And actually if you listen, your brain will produce the response.

Yes.

Now if you're not used to that, you got to practice it in your daily life. Small stakes practice for high stakes results. Practice it with your spouse now, which is a great way to practice because your Spouse is conditioned probably to you not listening.

Right. Watch the relationship start to improve.

Exactly. Actually listen. And then if you start doing it with your spouse, your kids, your colleagues, your co workers, people that you interact with on a day to day basis, then when you're in that big game, high stakes conversation with the buyer on the other side, with so much of your life on the line, you'll be able to do it because you practiced it.

Now we're always told from the typical negotiations. First off, I want to, I want to say I totally agree with you on the compliance set, on the yes set. Those were. And I always tell people that that whole yes set thing goes all the way back to Encyclopedia Britannica. Do you remember that man?

That, that, that was. They were around for a long time when I was born and I'm old, I'm a last century guy.

And Encyclopedia Britannica used to have door to door salesmen and they were trained to get 27 yeses. That was the actual pitch. And it started with somebody answers the door. Are you the lady of the house?

Right?

Yes. 1. Do you have children? Yes. Too. Now anytime you got a no, you left the porch, you went to the next house, you laid in the house. Yes. Do you have children? Yes. Are you interested in your children getting a better education? Yes. If I could show you how your children could get a better education and it wouldn't cost you anything, would you be interested in knowing that? Yes. That was their program and we all got trained on that stuff as young salespeople and, and negotiators, we all got trained on this, that a thing in motion tends to stay in motion. Now these techniques work in things like a TV commercial. Because in a TV commercial there's no dialogue going on.

Right.

So for me to say, you know, are you a senior citizen? Are you currently on Medicare? Are you, you know? Yes. Because I can keep saying yes in my head and that yes in my head will just keep me engaged with the commercial so that I get more information. There's no one to have a dialogue with.

Right.

But you're right. When there's, when it's, humans, it's different. I had a guy come in, come in to see me to sell me something and he was using that sales technique. And he got right down to the sales technique where you, you take the contract and you say, all I need is your endorsement here, not a signature. All I need is your endorsement here. You put your pen, you slide your contract over and then the, the training tells you don't do anything, wait for the other side to respond. So I just went like this and I put my, my hand up and I just sat there and I sat there and this guy's not saying anything and I'm not saying anything and I'm watching him just start to move in his chair and he has no idea what to do. And finally I like, look, I'm screwing with you. I know everything you're doing. And I can tell you what your next three steps are going to be. Stop, Stop selling me and start talking to me. Because you're reading a script to me. You've memorized a script, right? The other thing, I think that happens when we go in to see these buyers. The buyer is, the buyer knows that you want something from him or her. You want to get your product on the shelf in that store and it's going to, it's going to mean an enormous amount of money for you and you want something. I think when you flip the script and yeah, I'm, let's not hide the, the reason I'm here. I want to put my product in your store. But when you flip the script and say, what are the needs? What are your needs and the needs of Walmart right now and how can my product help meet those needs? And if you were me, what would you do right now to have to really bring value to Walmart? When you throw those questions out there, I think it's a bit disruptive for the buyer. And you force the buyer, I mean, is this true? You're forcing the buyer into a different headspace when you do stuff like that?

Well, those are the steps, absolutely. And then some of it is start laying out to them what your understanding of their position is. Because the thing that you talked about before, asking for advice, when you ask somebody for advice, essentially if they give it to you, they've stepped around the table there on your side of the table, they're helping you, correcting you. It's enormously satisfying to give advice.

And they told you exactly what they want.

They've told you what you want. Now a similar satisfaction which works the same way is correction. Because effectively advice is correction. So if you start laying out to the other side what their world looks like, which is the definition of empathy, you either nail it or they correct you, which again triggers the same advice giving thing. So you can lay out what they want. Look, of course you want the best price you could possibly get, but you also know that you need a reliable vendor. You need somebody that will consistently provide a product for you. That is not going to embarrass you because of its quality. And your turnover costs of changing out vendors all the time is extremely expensive. It's just like firing bad employees. Why don't we fire bad employees? Because it's so expensive to replace it. So you need a vendor that you can rely on that will consistently deliver a reliable product and it will deliver it on time. And your real costs are an unreliable products that you have to back up or you're embarrassed by. Your real cost is in a turnover event. Now that's what they're looking for. And that gets you immediately out of the price discussion. Now either you're going to nail it on the head, which they're going to find enormously satisfying and see you differently and connect with you or whatever you left out, they're going to add, which now they're in this, they're in this advice giving mode and they're no longer on the other side of the table, they're on your side of the table trying to solve a mutual problem.

I have a tendency when I, when I meet with the buyer, let's say we're selling shampoo to the buyer and this could be good or bad, you tell me. I have a tendency to, you know, you do your introductions and you get to meet people and we'll sit down and I will say, well, we're, you know, we're here to talk about XYZ shampoo. And I'll say, because exactly what Walmart needs is another bottle of shampoo in the store.

That's perfect. I love that because that's, you know, that's self effacing humor that breaks the ice, that changes the dynamic in so many different ways.

And I usually find the buyer will laugh and agree with me. So there's actually an agreement. Yeah, but there's laughter. But I think it also lets the buyer know, okay, I've got something else in mind here. I realize, okay, this seller realizes I don't need another bottle of shampoo. So they must have something else in their toolbox.

You know, you also use what I have come to refer to as the Bono method of negotiating Bono from YouTube. And you know, the point is getting somebody to laugh with you early in a conversation, laugh with you and a little bit at your own expense. That's a point of self effacing humor. No matter how tough the adversary is on the other side. Now how is this a Bono technique? Bono and Bob Geldorf negotiated the forgiveness on the Millennium project of literally hundreds of millions of dollars of Third World debt, African debt, they got, they got the holders of the debt to just forgive it, forget it, wipe it off the books. And Bono has been criticized for pictures of him meeting with Vladimir Putin and laughing with Putin. Like, how dare you laugh with the devil, with this evil man, with this person who only wants to hurt people. He got Russia to forgive a bunch of the African debt.

Right.

And he knew that no matter who was on the other side of the table, if he could get them to laugh with him early in the conversation, the chances of making a deal was extremely high. And that's why there are pictures of Bono laughing with Putin. And to your point, no matter how treacherous, how tough, how cutthroat the adversary is on the other side, you get him to laugh with you very early, the chances of you making a great dealer jump exponentially. Yeah.

And that's how I'll do that. I'll say, you know, well, I'm here to talk about the XYZ shampoo, because exactly what Walmart needs is another bottle of shampoo on the shelf. And they'll usually laugh. And then I will say, but what I'm really here to find out is I'm here to find out how I can help you and Walmart make more money in the shampoo business.

Boom. Boom. Exactly. You know, and what you get out of that as a response, not a yes, but a that's right.

Right. You're here for the right reason. Now the buyer is going to say, okay, this person actually understands what my job is.

Yeah.

Because my job as a buyer is to get more money out of this category.

Yep.

And it's not to promote your product.

And it's not just based on price. There's so many other aspects that make something valuable and it gets you out of that price conversation, which puts you in a position to hold your price.

Now, we usually tell our clients, and you don't know this, Chris, but we usually tell our clients in the consumer space, if at all possible, be the highest priced product in the category or almost the highest priced product in the category. And here's the reason we tell people that Walmart doesn't need the fifteenth $5 bottle of shampoo. What they need is a $15 bottle of shampoo that former five dollar buyers will trade up to. Because it's so Good.

Yep.

Because 32 points of margin on $15 is a lot more than 32 points of margin on $. So you get completely away from the pricing. Now here's a question I want to ask you. We're all trained by experts, so called experts. Not you, but other experts in negotiation. Never go into a negotiation that you're not willing to walk away from in this world. You're not willing to walk away just one account. Walmart. 40% of retail sales of almost every category of consumer packaged goods in America. Walking in and saying, well, you know, I don't need Walmart, I can walk away. First thing, Walmart has 148,000 SKUs in a Walmart Super Center. They can live without 148,001, but you can't live without your one. So you really do walk into there in a, in a life, you know, do or die, live or die mentality. So.

Right.

How does one gear their brain up for that? Because you had to, you had to be in environments where if you screwed up, somebody was going to die.

Yeah.

The challenge between not walking away and not being abused, you know, just because you're not going to walk away doesn't mean that you can't stand up for yourself gently. It doesn't mean you can't say no to certain aspects of the interaction. And they're, you know, they want to test you because, you know, can you respectfully and gently stand up for yourself? That's the mark of a vendor that's going to be there for the long term. If you can't stand up for yourself with them, you cannot stand up for yourself with anybody. Which means you're not going to be there long and they might as well pick your pocket because you're going to put yourself out of business anyway. They're really looking to see people who can continue to be determined to collaborate respectfully and deferentially. As a hostage negotiator. I wasn't going to walk away, but simultaneously we could make it clear that there were certain types of behavior wouldn't put up with. We're coaching a kidnapping in Columbia a number of years ago. Child is kidnapped, we're coaching the mother. They're starting to threat the child, threaten the child. We coach a mother to say, I'm going to do what you ask, you're going to get the ransom. But let me be clear. I can never deal with somebody who would threaten a child. And that. Which is a contradiction in statements logically. But there's this long period of silence on the other end. Kidnappers, killers, and they never threaten a child again. It's maintaining respect and deference in a conversation, being insistent on making a good deal. I'm not walking away and simultaneously I'm all I'M going to stay collaborative and we're going to make a great deal. It's a fine line. It's a tough psychological leap to make. I made it early on just because I had faith in my process of being able to stand up for myself. And I knew that if I approached approach people in an emotionally intelligent way that the threats and the hostage taking and the negative things they could do to interfere with the deal, that was the best chance of success, of getting all that to fall away. And it worked well enough that we saved a lot of lives.

Well, you know what was what I've what really intrigued me, Chris. First off, title of the book, never Split the Difference. We're always taught in most human interaction, compromise, it's fine. There's beauty and compromise, right. And you're saying, no, don't compromise.

Right.

It's okay to not compromise and still build value for both parties.

Right.

That there, that space exists. Right. And so I think a lot of what Mark's talking about too, and this is something that we, we constantly are trying to, to coach our brands, especially in this engagement, because there is so much tension and there's so much on the line is to do not compromise. Because again, they walk into those situations feeling that they don't have the power. And then maybe there is a deal presented to them that is horrendous for them in the long run, but it works for the account target, has all these fees and it works for them. So the buyer's fine and they feel they can't say no.

Right.

So again, if they flip their mindset to a collaborative environment that you can bring target value and still maintain your position yourself and sometimes maybe you have to walk away that one time, but that's only one deal in effect.

There's a couple things I'd love to touch on real quick. And, you know, it's the space between yes and no. And what does compromise mean? First of all, compromises lose loose and I don't know that anybody wants to, can survive, can thrive, can grow, can be a consistent, solid, reliable vendor. If you're negotiating lose lose deals. Now, I do avoid the phrase win win for a variety of other reasons, but just get out of lose, lose. And let's say that you can't say no. It doesn't mean that you have to say yes. There's a lot of space between yes and no, you know, so you can't make me say yes, you can't. Which means I'm going to continue to collaborate with you because I'm if my approach is, as Mark said earlier and quoting Dan Sullivan, if I'm genuinely here trying to make you a hero, try to. How can I be a hero to you and your company? Then there's a lot of space between yes and no. Just because I feel like I can't say no doesn't mean I have to say yes to a bad deal because I'm doing a bad job for you as a buyer. If I say yes to a bad deal because I'm not going to be there for you in the long run, I'm just. It's just a bad idea to say yes to a bad deal because I'm going to let you down eventually because the deal is going to kill me.

And in that space that, again, there's that patience in your book. And I think that was so critical. That piece was so critical when I was going through it was to have that patience. And when you're in these scenarios and Chris, give you more context. Most of these initial meetings are 15 minutes. They're 20 minutes. So a lot of the brands feel I'm under the gun. I only got 15 minutes with this buyer and that's all that I have. And I gotta. You've got all the time in the world. That one meeting might only be 15 minutes, or they could extend it longer or so. The concept of not only the negotiation, because I think negotiation also many times has a very negative context towards it. Many times we talk about the concept here, when we talk about what we do, the concept of selling is like, oh, it's so dirty. No, no, no, no. It's a conversation. It's education. Right. And I think negotiation has the same kind of tone that's connected to it. It doesn't. It's not a negative. It's a conversation. That conversation can last forever. Be patient. Be. Be comfortable in that, that space between yes and no, because it exists to bring value to both parties. It absolutely is there. If you have the fortitude to hold on to that patience. Are there any. Are there any techniques or thoughts or mindsets that. That you've trained on to help people, you know, kind of embrace that patience?

Well, we said. I love that you bring that up. I used to counsel people that patience is a weapon. You know, I didn't say be patient. You know, patience is an asset, it's an attribute, it's a weapon. You know, whichever one of those words appeal to you to get yourself to let the time continue and work for you instead of against you. Depending upon your type, you might Need a different word. Like, I'm a natural born assertive. So the thought that patience is a weapon, I'm like, oh, I like that. Or if I. We found in kidnap negotiations especially, you know, the family feels like they're under attack from the kidnappers and they need a weapon to defend themselves. And I could say, be patient, but I could say patience is a weapon. And they'd be like, oh, all right.

Because they wanted a weapon at that point. That's what they wanted.

Yeah, yeah.

Patience is a. Is a weapon. Patience is a tool. And. And you're right. Just because somebody asks something doesn't mean you have a requirement to respond in a. In a millisecond.

Right?

You can give yourself a beat to think about it, but sometimes giving them a beat to think about what they just asked is just as powerful.

Mm.

Agree completely. Yeah. Yeah. Agree completely.

So now you. You offer training. Walk us through the training. What. What if our people came to training with you? What would they learn?

Well, we, you know, we. We do a little Karate Kid stuff. You know, Karate Kid wax on, wax off. You know what the learning journey is, is a little bit different for different people, but we want you to start getting reflexive in a couple of the basic skills. We got a total of nine skills, but we got something called a quick two plus one, which is labels and mirrors, which are flexible and work under any circumstances with any person on the other side. Whether or not you got to buy time, whether you got to collect information, whether or not you got to develop rapport. They're the two negotiation skills that actually do all three things simultaneously, which makes them a great time saver. Labels and mirrors, labeling the affected dynamic. Seems like you've given this a lot of thought. Seems like you're under a lot of pressure. Seems like you've got other options. You know, those are all labels. They tend to trigger information from the other side without asking a question, which opens up the information flow because it's voluntarily. And people love for you to make those observations. So we'll start teaching you that stuff right off the bat. At. The labeling technique happens to be one of the most powerful skill. When you get really good at it, at it, like our top level people on my team, I can work my way all the way through a negotiation, only labeling and nothing else. And I got nine other tools that I can lean on if I need to. So that's what we start people out with. And then we start as we get. You get better and better at it. It's like a Martial arts skill. Then you learn, you add another move and another move. Pretty soon you get into flow.

And this stuff doesn't just work with a buyer. I mean, this works with your kids, this works with your employees, this works with your wife or husband. We're all, we're all communicating and we're all negotiating at some point on everything.

Yeah. And you know, my co author. Our co author because never split the difference. Officially, myself and Tall Ros, but in point of fact, my son Brandon is an uncredited co author. You know, Tall contended to us that every human being is hardwired to collaborate because we all inherited that. You know, the caveman that didn't collaborate died alone in the dark or got eaten by a saber tooth tiger because they went out hunting by themselves. And the cavemen that survived collaborate. And so the approach means that every human being, regardless of who's on the other side, whether you negotiate with buyers in China, they're still human, so they're hardwired to collaborate. And if you stay this collaboration route, you're going to make a better deal.

There's some. I want to encourage everybody to think about the training and I certainly want to encourage everybody to get the book. We'll have links to the book in the show notes and we'll have links to Chris's website in there also. Chris, where you run. I want, I want to ask you one other question. How in the world does someone find themselves on the path to be a hostage negotiator? I mean, clearly you didn't. You weren't in high school one day saying, negotiate with lunatics when I get out of high school.

Nah, you know, it was the cliche following your bliss like it was, you know, was one interesting thing after another. I mean, I was originally I was a police officer, then I was an FBI agent. I was a member of FBI swat. And I liked crisis response because it required decisions. Right.

But being a SWAT officer is the opposite of being a negotiator on.

On some levels.

On some level, yeah. I mean, charging the door is different than trying to talk the guy out of the door.

Yeah, yeah, no, very true. Which is why ultimately, as sexy and fun as SWAT was, when I got into negotiation as a result of a reoccurring knee injury, I found negotiating far more satisfying than I ever. SWAT was great. Negotiating was even better.

Fewer people shooting at you.

Whether the reality of being on a SWAT versus negotiation is SWAT guys spent a lot of time in laying in the rain, in the mud, wait for something to happen and negotiators are the ones on the phone making it happen. And that was one of the big differences.

Yes. I don't know if you know this now. I was a cop, so I was, I was a first through the door guy at one point in my life.

I'm not surprised.

And I would much rather negotiate at this point than. Than have to be the first guy through the door. Although at that point in my life, I enjoyed being the first guy through the door.

There are those days. Right? Yeah, that was, that was, that was.

For my youth and in my youth being the first guy through the door seemed like the fun thing to do.

Back in the days when somebody could drop you off the top of a building and you just bounce, you'd be fine.

Exactly. I. I can imagine you were probably a first through the door guy also.

Yeah, I enjoyed that. I was. I enjoyed. I wanted to be an assaulter.

Yep, you have, you have the personality for that. And by the way, being the first through the guide door doesn't mean that you're violent, it doesn't mean that, that you are overly aggressive. It just means that you value your team and you want to resolve the problem as quickly as possible. You want to be the person that's going to resolve that problem right now and do it fast, you know, like to lead and. Yeah, and. And I will say the key to being the first through the door, which sounds kind of weird, it's to be explosive and to be violent and to be shocking and to be disruptive where you are, you are just making chaos.

Speed, surprise and violence of action.

Absolutely. Just making chaos.

Sounds like entrepreneurship to me.

Good point. Exactly.

Entrepreneurship is, is very much controlled chaos and being. And being a great entrepreneur is actually controlling chaos.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It really is. Never split the difference. Chris Moss. We'll have links to the book. I want you to go get it. Chris, thanks for being with us. It's been awesome.

Can I include the website, please?

Absolutely.

And we'll have this in the notes too, folks, so don't worry about pulling off to get it, but go ahead, Chris.

All right. Yeah, it's Black Swan Ltd.com B L A C K S W-A N Ltd.com you know, when you find your way there. We got a host of stuff to get you started with for nothing. Because once you get started, you're going to really want more it.

I'm going to tell you folks. So I personally am an certified NLP practitioner and that's part of what my education is in and that's why Chris is probably responding to some of the stuff that, that I do, because I know how to do this stuff. It's a superpower.

Yeah.

You have no idea how powerful these, this ability is. And these techniques are once you learn them. And I want to add, not only do you learn them and you. And it's like learning martial arts.

You can't.

Somebody just can't tell you, once go do this, it has to become a reflex. It has to become natural. It has to become you. But when you, when you perfect these kind of skills that Chris teaches and then you use them for positive outcome.

Yeah.

Because they can be used for bad outcomes. But when you use them for positive outcomes, you become a human being that other people want to know and want to be around. And nothing, nothing will have a bigger impact on buyers than being the vendor they're looking forward to visiting with next.

Amen.

When they, when they say, man, Chris is going to come and see me next week, I always love my time with him because we always have a great time together.

Yep.

It's still a big company. They're still making big decisions, but we're all still humans. And as humans, we like doing business with people we like.

Yep.

And I'm going to assume, and I know this because I've seen you work before, when you're negotiating with a hostage, you're working very much to be liked by that person.

Yep.

Where this guy with a gun who's holding prisoners is actually saying, well, this guy seems pretty decent. I kind of, you know, I kind of have an ethos with him. He kind of gets me. And, and that's the game. That is, that's the game you. You want to get.

Get the book.

And again, I, I cannot encourage people enough to have this kind of training. It will. It very much has the potential to change your life. I firmly believe that. Any last comments, Justin?

No, no, no. All, like, all I can say is thank you so much for your time today, Chris. The book is incredible. It's amazing. Again, people, it is a life skill. It is absolutely a life skill. Don't even look at it as, this is only going to help my business. This will genuinely help your life. This will bring value in every aspect of your life. So please go out and get this. If for nothing else, you want to create stronger relationships, no stronger impact on your personal life, read the book for that alone.

Yeah.

I'm.

I gotta tell you, I've been trained in this stuff for years, and I'm still thinking, geez, maybe I should go to Chris's program here because I'm sure he can teach me stuff. That's it for today folks. If you like the show, pass it on. And wherever you get your podcast, please remember to go. Leave us a five star review. Go to the Show Notes at CPG Insiders with the episode with Chris Voss and you'll find links to the website and to the book and everything you need there. Matt will be taking care of making sure that you can find everything and we will see you on the next episode of CPG Insiders. If you're looking to greatly increase sales on your CPG product, don't hesitate to contact us at Jekyll and Hyde Advertising and Marketing. By the way, the only advertising agency with a guarant guaranteed result. Just go to jekyllheidagency.com or feel free to give us a call at 800-542 10.