Sustainability, Inflation, Looking Ahead - an Interview with Julie DiNatale - Ep. 55

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Hi, everybody. Welcome to this edition of CPG Insiders. I'm your host Marc Young with my co host, Justin Gerard. Justin, we're going to, we have an expert on today and we're going to talk about sustainability.

Yes. It's a huge movement as we know going on right now, not just within consumers, but on the product side. This is a huge movement. Consumers are looking for it. Brands are looking for, how can they get deeper into sustainability. And as we know, retailers are really looking for it right now.

And it's funny because when we, when we look at statistics and in fact I sent you some this morning.

Yeah.

And you probably read those.

Yeah.

I'm assuming you read them. I sent them to you. One of the things that jumps out at me is the behavior that people claim they have and the behavior that they really have is not the same thing.

Well, I mean that's normal, but the gap is huge. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So when we interview people for like in studies, we see that, you know, like 60 to 80% of people say, yes, I would love to buy a eco friendly or sustainable product or product with, you know, less packaging. Whatever the case is, they claim they would like to buy that. But then we look at their shopping cart of those same people and we see that their decision making was much less than what they claimed. They claimed somewhat of a moral high ground, but it didn't translate. So one of the things that, before we get started, one of the things that I want our people to know when we're talking about sustainability, one is sustainability is good from a standpoint of it's the right thing to do.

Yeah.

Let's not fill landfills up. Let's not try to kill everybody off with glyphosate or whatever the case is. But at the same point we need to find ways of communicating this message to the consumers in a fashion that is more than just saying sustainably made or eco friendly package. That's not enough. We have to go past that and we can talk about that more. So let's get on with our guest. Our guest is Julie Di Natale. I got it right.

Dinatale.

Julie Di Natale. She is with. Now that's called Triterra, which is really part of Land O' Lakes. Is Land O' Lakes like the parent company of.

Yes. Yeah. Trutera. Yep. Trutera is the sustainability business of Land O Lakes.

So tell us a little bit about Land O' Lakes and Truteura. Land O' Lakes is obviously everybody knows who Land O' Lakes is. Everybody's got Land o' Lakes Butter. Tell us more about the company because it's a lot more than just some butter.

Yeah. Thank you for having me. This is really excited. I'm anxious to talk some more on this topic and have this conversation. So, Lana Lakes is a cooperative system working with farmers and farmer communities throughout the ag system, the agricultural and food system. We have four main business units and many people are familiar with our butter and our other dairy food ingredients with cheeses. And we are a major dairy ingredient supplier to some of the largest CPGs in the world. We also have an animal nutrition division called Purina that is feed for. Mainly for animals that don't live in your house.

Right.

So horses and cattle.

And so you are not the Purina home brand.

We're not the Nestle Purina that is for pets. That's called Nestle Purina Pet Care, which we actually work very closely with that group at Nestle Purina. But that is.

You guys make the Purina Monkey Chow, not the dog chow.

Yeah, I'm a fan of the horse chow as a horse person myself, but, you know, Purina Senior Horse Chow keeps a lot of old horses going for many, many years. Pass with the husband. Wouldn't like, let's just put it that way.

Is already planning on buying me some, obviously.

Yes, yes. So Winfield United is our crop inputs and insights division where we're helping farmers directly that are on the farm through our affiliate network of cooperatives. So we work with another thousand ag cooperatives throughout North America, working with open field or row crops and some other crops as well. So that's, that's where we're providing agronomic insights, helping with efficient nutrient management and essentially, you know, the access we have at Trutera being the sustainability fourth business unit at Land O Lakes, we work with our United, our Winfield United partners to help promote and encourage stewardship, conservation, ag and regenerative agriculture.

So when we look at Land o' Lakes, the business itself, we're not talking about just this one giant buttery conglomerate. We're talking about a co op of potentially family farms, farms all over the country, that you're actually helping not only them become sustainable from their practices, but also helping them stay in business, I'm assuming.

Yeah. So, you know, the whole mission of our division at Trutera is farmer first and helping with moving more of agriculture both in the crop side and the dairy side and livestock side into practices that make sense not only for the environment, but, but as important for the resiliency of our food system. And the profitability of our farmers. We really need that to be the whole ecosystem of the projects and changes. But it's not something that just happens overnight. I mean there's costs involved, there's education that's needed and that's what Trutera has been built for. And we've been doing this since 2018 to support these projects and not only bring sustainability to our own family of products, but we work with CPG partners in helping them make interventions or in setting changes or some of the lingo there to their own supply chains.

Where's the biggest challenges for you? Is it changing the mindset of the farmer? Is it funding the technology and getting return on investment on making these changes? Where's the biggest roadblocks?

Yeah, I think it's, you know, the farming systems are built for efficiency and productivity and it's important to understand that changing everything in one season with the capital cost and without the education of what are the right cover crops to use, what is the right equipment that I need, how do I manage my in season nitrogen plan? I think it's a lot of, I think there's willingness at the farm gate. I think we have the right talent working throughout our cooperative system with both the livestock operations and the cropping operations. But it's overhead, it's capital and it's on average it might cost 60 to $70 an acre to make these practice changes. And that's not taken lightly and it's careful consideration and it's a new way of doing things in operations that are highly efficient and don't want to have any risk with their cash crops. So we work to educate them and to bring them along and support, support them. And we consider our CBG partners, truly partners and collaborators because we are working to support their supply chain and change it to regenerative agriculture.

And as we know right now, supply chain is a huge issue across every.

Client we have is complaining about their supply chain right down to I can't get a plastic cap to put on my product or whatever the case is.

It is unbelievable. So when we're looking at some of the current challenges that we're facing, do you have any sense of in your space, what does the future look like? What's coming here? Where are we going?

Well, I mean many of your listeners probably know the major CPGs have made these climate claim commitments, whether they're aligned to the science based target initiative, they're like at their greenhouse gas accounting balance sheet and connecting farmers with the understanding that regenerative ag and these Conservation practices. I'm just going to keep picking on cover cropping and no till eventually within two or three years, with the right support, the right education, actually then change their soils to higher performers. So, you know, we have companies that have made commitments to their stakeholders and we have farmers that are willing to make these changes with the right support and the right platforms and the right information feeding back to them. And I think, you know, to answer your question, the business case for the farmer and the business case for the downstream partner, the CPG makes sense. It just takes some time and support and you know, there's, there's a scalability that is happening now. Right, right. You know, every season. But I have confidence that, you know, with the farmer being incentivized with the, there's some grants coming out from the usda, hopefully this fall to jumpstart this even further, that we'll be able to integrate these improved advanced conservation practices with the support of scientific rigor and environmental modeling that will give us not only more reason to feel that the right thing is being done, but truly bring more resiliency in the farming system and the supply chains for our CPGs.

So just nobody's up there, science involved here than planting some crops and I own some cows.

Isn't there.

There's way more, way more involved here.

Yeah. And I just would say, you know, nobody is up at night more caring about their animals or their soils than farmers and their trusted advisors, which are our cooperative system, you know, agronomists and seed, seed specialists and nitrogen management specialists, etc. So it truly is, is at the heart of their livelihood to protect their, their land and their animals.

So we're heading a lot of, we're running into a lot of headwinds right now and those headwinds are at a very rapidly increasing cost of living, rapidly growing fuel prices. And we on our end, and I'm going to guess you too are now starting to see consumers at the shelf starting to make decisions on do I spend a little more money for this product or do I put gas in the car? How is that affecting your efforts? Is that slowing your efforts down? Is it, is it making it more challenging for you? How is this current run in the economy altering your business?

Yeah. So as we look at the CPGs and where they're made commitments to reduce the carbon emissions from their supply chains, that is something that they can't completely go back on. Is the pace possibly going to slow down because of the commodity prices and inflation? That's yet to be determined. It has not even before we've had this run up in fuel prices and other commodity prices hadn't quite yet been, and you mentioned it earlier, tied together with is a consumer willing to spend X dollars more and how many x dollars more for sustainably sourced product. But what we do know is that the awareness is there and that the tying in to the investment stakeholders, to NGO groups, to aligning to science based target initiatives, which is a major global organization, commitments have been made and companies have milestones and ultimately goals to become carbon neutral, so to speak. So that's not going away. Are we seeing everyone running to the grocery store ready to spend more and more and more? I think we're in the middle of trying to sort that through. But there are, there are consumers and there are brands that are finding that impact spending and socially responsible spending is very important. And I guess I'll tie it back into, we know that efficiency and regenerative ag and caring for the soils and caring for the animal operations is all tied together and improving profitability for our, our farmers and our producer livestock producers. So just think about it as, you know, if we're planting a cover crop and I guess what my point is is do we necessarily have to have everyone spending more on a CPG product at the store or do we need CPGs, major companies to come in and say, I'm going to sponsor and I'm going to collaborate with Trutera and their network of farmers to say let me fund some interventions and help you get the COVID crops you need and the equipment you need and in three or four years you're going to be sequestering carbon, you're going to have a healthier soil that's going to protect your crop from frost in the spring or a flood in the fall. That organic matter is driving more risk mitigation to these weather fluctuations that we're having. So there's more to it than just someone writing a bigger check at the grocery store for the incentives for these changes to happen to our food system.

I think that's interesting. One of the things that we were writing down and I think Mark, you alluded to it in the beginning of the show with some of these statistics from the consumer side as far as what they say and what they do. So we know that consumers buy products based on value, not price. Okay. The price is not what they're buying. They're buying the value.

So they're always buying the best value.

Exactly. The best value is what they're paying for. Right. So brands are still consumers Just a lot of them creating one organization. So when we're talking about this concept of now shifting over to what you're saying, it seems that we have reached a point, and you correct me if I'm wrong, Julie, that we've reached a point where now awareness is not the challenge, but it seems that education may be the challenge now.

Yeah. And commitment and execution on it.

Right.

And it's funny because I think the business world takes a lot of bad raps. We hear people in the media and politicians oftentimes trying to blame business for not moving fast enough, for not lowering prices or not doing the case. But in reality we look at companies like Trutera and Land O' Lakes and for the most part companies are doing the effort, they are spending money, they are trying to be better citizens. I mean, is that a fair assessment to make, Julie?

Yeah, I think you can look at almost every substantial company has some sustainability report and specific efforts and showing a pathway to progression with many different fronts. Not just their carbon inventory, but also water quality, water efficiency, waste reduction, etc. It's fascinating how much work is truly being done. I think as we find ourselves wanting more engagement from the consumer on rewarding companies for this, it's around the corner. I mean it's going to be something that folks are going to be looking for. It just takes some time. And we do know that consumers are aware of, maybe they're not getting as much education through marketing programs as what will be coming, but quality matters. And we're going to find that the supply chains from CPGs. A CPG has also a benefit of doing this with their supply chain to improve the resiliency of that supply chain, supply chain so that land or that operation is not only more profitable and more efficient but also more again resilient through extreme weather events or extreme market fluctuations. So I don't think we have a choice. I mean we all want to go to the store and have options and consumer choices ultimately so important. But you know, we have it. We have the ability to reach about 50% of the US harvested acres.

Wow.

And Trutera through our Winfield United system. You know, we truly believe in creating an environment that brings sustainability downstream to the consumer and upstream to the farmers and the rural communities.

So how much pressure? Because remember, a lot of our, most of our audience are in the consumer packaged goods industry. How much pressure do you see from the major retailers on the brands, on the manufacturers? Is Walmart, is Kroger coming to you and saying we expect this, we expect that we Want this by certain dates. How much of that are you seeing?

Yeah, so there is many different projects going on. Cross functionally with the Walmarts, the targets, the major retailers, Kroger with their brands. Walmart's had several that have been going on for many years. The major CPGs have been involved and I'm sure others can talk about their involvement more than I can. They've done great work in not only baselining carbon emissions from agriculture, but also helping reduce them and sequester carbon as well. And we haven't even talked about how farmers can really be the hero and not only improving sustainability in our supply chain, but also drawing down carbon and sequestering it and storing it in their soils for photosynthesis. God created it and they can utilize it and make major changes. So yes, there are many different projects going on and the consumer product good companies that are leading edge of this have been aligned to those programs and there's just a lot going on. It's just not always tied to the package. Do you know what I'm saying? Nestle Purina Pet Care is doing a tremendous amount of work. Nestle Global is doing a tremendous amount of work. There's other ingredient suppliers to the CPGs that are heavily involved from start to finish in these projects. Campbell Soup Company. Many, many, many. And you can see their statements online and see their progress. But again, it's not always slapping it on the label for a consumer, but farmers. You know, we are a farming organization and we have access to the farm gate, like I said, in both livestock and with harvested acres, photosynthesis is out there. And the more farmers we have using it and not tilling their soils, just we're pulling carbon out of the atmosphere very quickly and storing it. Also helping with water quality and water efficiency because that organic material in the soil acts as a filter and a moisturizer and a absorber when it's needed.

Do we have a farmer shortage now?

Oh, I don't think so. I think we have. The bulk of farms are still run by family operations. They're efficient, they're highly educated and they work with trusted experts to help them with the agronomic pieces. So what I mean by that, and you touched on it, there's modeling, there's in season support, there's even satellite imagery now that can alert a farmer when there might be a pest problem in one corner of their field, go out and treat that. Or there's been some additional rain on these three fields you should check it for to make sure there's Been the corn crop is getting all the nutrients it needs. I don't think there's a farmer's shortage from my perspective. I think we've got fantastic farms that are highly educated and doing an amazing, amazing job of feeding us all.

Now, Justin, have you seen the autonomous tractors? The autonomous farm tractors? No, I haven't seen them and I'm assuming Julie has. So we're now getting to the point where you can have farm tractors that are out working the crops with nobody in them because they're driving by GPS and satellite and by coordinate.

Wow.

It's actually pretty cool. You go out and see this big giant tractor and there's no one inside.

Wow.

It's out there working by itself, which does help solve some of the labor issues, I suppose. You know, I find a lot of this fascinating. Now, what is, does Trutera have, have any input into. I know you're into product. Do they have any input into packaging?

So we do have some downstream collaborators and partners with Trutera that work on some of the bio packaging that comes out of our corn and soybean crops. So we have supported projects for those, those companies, but we are not creating packaging for CPGs ourselves.

I've seen a lot of that out of Walmart where Walmart is requiring less packaging, recyclable packaging.

Yes.

I haven't been, I haven't experienced as much of what they're requiring from the food source itself, but certainly from the packaging.

Yeah, well. And so one of the questions I have, Julie, kind of bringing it back now is you are obviously so involved, so educated in this space and you absolutely understand the full impact of the work that you're doing. And again, I don't think consumers do, I don't think they have any concept otherwise I do believe there would be a higher value. I do believe the gap that Mark talked about earlier would be a lot smaller. So, trying to understand now, in your opinion, if you have any thoughts, what can brands do, what can brands do to try to educate and communicate this more effectively to, as you said, get it past the packaging. Yes, that's great. And I'm happy that there's movement so.

To get people to appreciate the work the brand is adding.

Absolutely. This probe. Absolutely.

Yeah. And I've seen, we've done some co marketing pieces with Nestle Purina Pet Care to explain how they're working with sustainability and sustainable sourcing and their supply chain telling the farmer story about using regenerative ag and the positive feedback and that it's a win, win. For both, you know, the land and the consumer. I think, you know, it's, it's one of those pieces of consumer education that goes beyond just what they see at the store and is, it's kind of an omnichannel opportunity to have more brands tell the story through social media, through their own websites, through you know, education launches of new products and sharing that story and that benefit that is meaningful from the farm gate, you know, to the fork.

I think eventually eco friendly packaging and sustainably sourced products are going to eventually not become the feature of your product. They're going to become the table stakes to get in.

Right? Right.

It's going to become the entry cost.

Right.

Does that seem reasonable to you, Julie, that eventually this is going to be the baseline?

So if you, you know, and some of your audience may already recognize this, if you look at why the major CPGs have made these climate commitments and claims it's about doing the right thing and protecting the resiliency and the, the productivity of their supply chain. But there's also been a movement from stakeholders besides consumers. So impact investing. Our CEO Beth Ford is on the board of BlackRock. BlackRock, as an institutional investor has been the leader of encouraging companies in their portfolio to align with climate goals and make a plan, hit the milestones, align to science based target initiatives and make a difference and all will benefit. This is going to happen how we scorecard it, how we put it on a label, how a carbon asset that's ton of CO2e stored in a farmer's soil is serialized and documented, registered, certified and sold. A lot of that is all being sorted out and Trotera is right at the forefront of helping CPGs guide them through it and then bring the appropriate narrative and quantitative claims that they can report on to their board, to their investors, to their consumers, to NGOs and it's ESG, it's environmental and social governance. And there's not a significant company that's not taking that very seriously and getting involved with it.

So with all the brands that are listening and lots of companies are listening to this, what would be the, what do you think is the most important message that you need them to understand? What is the thing you want them to come away with knowing?

So I think the number one thing that, and I've been in this business for quite some time. I've worked in agriculture now for nearly 18 years. My background is in environmental science and environmental toxicology. Ten years in the commodity markets before I got into working with the agribusiness side Directly. So I've been around a little bit, but I think why I'm at Trutera, why I'm at Land O Lakes.

Yeah. What's driving you?

What's driving me? Okay, so there's a lot of ways to measure, to watch agriculture from satellite imagery and modeling and do baselining and look at carbon emissions and pick on farmers and, you know, pick on livestock operations and say, this is our problem. What we fundamentally, we all love to eat, we all love consumer choice, We've got a lot of people globally to feed. That's. That's no new. What we need to do and what Trutera is different, why we're different and why Land O Lakes is differentiated in this entire space is we have access and we are at the farm gate, we are on the dairies, we are at the soybean and corn farms, we're at the wheat farms. We are working through our own teams and our affiliates to support and change the acre or the operation and make a substantial improvement that not only helps the environment, but also supports the farmer, rural communities and resiliency. Like I keep saying over and over again, what does it matter if we can watch and model and point our fingers if we can't support and educate and drive change that benefits us all? And that's what we do at Trucera. We have the trusted relationships with these operations to move them to these conservation practices that make sense all the way around.

It can't be easy for a lot of brands.

No.

So, yeah, and that's why we work with brands in and out of our own house. Right. So, you know, if anyone's listening here, that's, you know, challenged, like, oh, I get corn in from a, you know, a consolidated source, but I need to go to my supply shed and make some sustainability projects happen and start reducing our emissions and look at our baseline and see where then we can get a Scope three asset. A scope three carbon asset. That's what we do at Trutero. That's what we do at Trutero.

Are you seeing any core products supply shortages due to Russia, Ukraine?

I am not on that side of the house. We are primarily focused on North American projects at Trutera. I'm sure that demand for our commodities here in North America has changed based on that. But my experience globally prior to joining the team at Trutera, it's really not only disheartening what's happening to the people there, but the agriculture and the opportunity for us to feed so many people from Ukraine is just an amazing agricultural force in the globe. And again, I don't deal with that market directly at this time, but it's definitely a concern and something to watch.

Yeah. Because I've been reading some reports that are saying that with a lot of crops and a lot of core ingredients coming out of Ukraine and Russia that we could be heading into food shortages in the not too distant future.

Yeah. And again, focused on here in North America. I haven't spent time analyzing how the Ukrainian situation is impacting Africa and Europe, but it's definitely something to be watchful of. I'm sure many of your audience, the global CPGs are on that very, very tactically and carefully.

Yeah. And I agree with you on that. The Ukraine and Russia situation probably having a bigger effect in Europe and in Africa than it is here in the US because we're kind of unique when you think of us as a country. We have such diverse land, we have great crops, we have great land for farming, we have oil, we have minerals, we have so many wonderful resources here in our country.

So let's talk if we might, just about scorecarding all this. So.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

You know, how does a CPG scorecard, you know what's going on in their scorecards? Yeah, right, right. We got to keep a list here. So, you know, there's a lot of different ways that we can first monitor what's happening in a supply shed. You know, in Trutera, what we offer is a combination of a remote sense technology, combining that with years and years of direct supply shift data from our farmers. And that provides a cpg, an improved emission factor data for their sustainability reporting. And this hybrid approach makes it easy for remote sensing and what we call direct data or best available real data to work together to keep a monitoring system moving beyond just a baseline. So eyes in the sky. So you know, if a CPG gets the bulk of their soybeans from a point in central Iowa or southwest Ohio, we can monitor within 200 mile radius of that or whatever metric they want to use. And it's just a really economic way for them to start accurately understanding their supply chain. And then we actually have farmers enroll and start engaging and changing and proactively learning through our affiliates. And that's where then they obtain some real scalable practice changes in their supply shed and start to move to what is called a scope 3 carbon removal, carbon reduction asset. The key thing of those assets is these companies, all the majors, most of the majors, and many of the large to mid sized companies and midsize companies, they are going to start reporting publicly on their carbon balance sheet. What will be considered a point of measurement for that balance sheet will be tons of CO2e. Ultimately we're supporting a farmer throughout. We're checking on the supply shed, seeing where there's acres ready to move to cover cropping and no till. Not every farm is doing all these things. Like I said, that's careful consideration. There's capital costs, there's education, there's risk that needs to be mitigated to engaging the farmer, educating them and getting them to change. Then actually using our Trutera sustainability tool which has this amazing insights engineering.

To.

Factor in all the details, put together a report and then ultimately have this asset that is really transactable on a CPG's balance sheet. And you can't do any of that without being the farmers in the farmers trusted network. And we know that farmers get their regenerative ag education. You know, they don't, they don't necessarily get it from, you know, reading something in a magazine. They get it from listening to their seed rep, their agronomists, their nutrient management rep, and their neighbors. And their neighbors. So it's a lot, it's a lot to officially have something that can be reported on and then also have these narrative claims. And I think where you alluded to earlier is like we need to get more of those narrative claims. Telling that story out in front of the consumer, that is the problem.

We're not telling the story.

That's a huge problem. And so just thinking from a brand's perspective here, a couple questions. So one would be how, because as you mentioned, Trutera is involved outside of Atlanta Lake. So how would a brand get involved with Trutera if they wanted to take the next step and start doing. Yeah, yeah.

So they certainly can check out our website. They can Google trueterra Ag Land o Lakes and find us very easily. Reach out to and through our website and get a hold of one of us or reach out in the show notes here to me directly. You know, it's important that we have ways for, you know, carbon indexing and.

For.

The reporting of our, you know, carbon footprint. But you know, we're not just carbon. We're looking at ways for the metrics, modeling and quantification of water quality, water efficiency, which is also very important. But I'm sure, you know, many folks in your audience are aware that they need to change their supply shed. Maybe they're trying to do it through virtual reality, eyes in the sky, satellite imagery or through boots on the ground here and there with something that's not scalable, but that's where we can then pick up and help and guide them through leading their supply chain. And I picked on row crop farming, but we're also working with dairies and livestock operations, which are very important across the board as well and have opportunity. Let's not forget farmers are the heroes in this and they can use the tools in their toolbox, including photosynthesis, to make carbon reductions and carbon removals of what we've already emitted, change.

Well, Julie, we appreciate you being with us, folks. If you go to the show notes, you go to CPG Insiders with the episode with Judi Di Natelli. See, I'm working on that.

Judy Dinatelli, you did it.

You'll find her contact information, the link to the website for Traterra and for Land O Lakes. And I appreciate you being here. I think the real message here for our listeners today is sustainability is going to happen with or without your cooperation.

Yes.

So it probably makes more sense to try to get a little bit ahead of the curve than to be drugged down the path. And as we said at the beginning, we need to take this investment and yes, it's the right thing to do, but we need to figure out how to turn that investment into additional income or additional profitability. And we need to do that by learning how to message this better.

Yes, absolutely. Well, and it's like, and I think, Julie, I think you said it best too because again, as a business, okay, yes, I like that. It makes me feel good. We're doing the right thing. But how does it affect my business? And that's the one thing you mentioned, resiliency is the key there, is that it does affect your business. It won't affect your business today, but three, four years from now, you're going to see it on the profit sheet too. So this is not just a feel good marketing ploy that I look at statistics. I'm going, oh, well, it doesn't sell more products. We shouldn't do it. This is going to help your bottom line in the end as well. So this is much more, again, this.

Is much more than right. And that's why I encourage people to reach out to people, people like Julia Trouterra and tap into all of the experience and the wisdom that they have. Because it makes no sense to try to reinvent the wheel or to try to relearn something.

No, no. And again, I think with all the work that Julia that you're doing and Troutera is doing, I think that the more that brands will get involved, the more that they'll understand what's happening so that they can promote the narrative properly.

Yeah. And the more that will bring other brands into doing it because the more the brands go down this path, the more, as I said, it becomes the cost of entry.

Exactly.

So now it becomes. I expect you, as a consumer, I expect you to be doing something to preserve the future.

Absolutely.

Well, that's it for today on CPG Insiders. If you enjoyed today's show, please go to wherever you get your podcast. Podcast. Leave us. Five star review. Always keep in mind you can always reach out to our guests. You can also always reach out to Justin or myself. And you can find both of us@cppg insiders.com or jekyllhyde labs.com either one of those places. And we will be back with more topics and more guests. We have a lot of guests coming up over the next few months, don't we?

Yeah, it's really exciting stuff.

So we will see you on the next episode of CPG Insiders. If you're looking to greatly increase sales on your CPG product, don't hesitate to contact us at Jekyll and Hyde Advertising and Marketing. By the way, the only advertising agency with a guaranteed result. Just go to jekyllhideagency.com or feel free to give us a call at 800-500-4210 RA.