The Science of Persuasion

This is CPG Insiders, the podcast that helps consumer packaged goods companies survive and thrive in business. Now your hosts, Mark Young and Justin Gerard. Welcome everyone, to this edition of CPG Insiders. I'm your host, Mark Young with my co host and colleague, Justin Gerard. Yes, that is his name.

That is it.

And today we're going to talk about neuropersuasive advertising, neuro linguistics programming and hypnotic language. So, Justin, you're going to kind of be the interviewer since I happen to be the expert in this particular topic.

Yes, yes. And if you could quickly hear for maybe some of our new listeners, kind of. If you could run down a little bit of your background so they can get an understanding of your expertise.

Well, as odd as it sounds, I started out in the career side as an engineer, so I am a licensed engineer, which kind of makes sense if you know me.

It does, yeah.

Because I'm a tad slight. Bit of a nerd.

A little bit.

And I became fascinated with neuro linguistics programming several years ago. And this actually happened from an encounter I'd had with Tony Robbins, who happens to be just a world class hypnotist in neuro linguistics programming. And what had occurred to me, what he'd said to me was that he was an NLP practitioner and hypnotist. And he says, and you and I have the same job. And I well, how could we have the same job?

Right?

And he said, I use words and images to cause an immediate change in people's behavior. I'm like, oh yeah, I do that too, but I use mass media.

Exactly.

And you do it one on one. So that's what intrigued me with it, because he was able to demonstrate to me that simple words, cadences, the order of words, the tonality of voice, using one image over another image, how these things have literally dramatic impact on the response rate to advertising. And I want to remind people that when we're talking about that our job in advertising is not to sell products to people who don't need the product.

Right.

So if we're selling a product for hemorrhoidal pain, we're not going to sell it to people without hemorrhoids. Our job is to tell people about another option that they have for their issue or for their desire to let them know what the features are of that option and to help people overcome their own resistance and fear of making a bad decision. Yep, because people have a fear of change. They have a fear of being embarrassed, they have a fear of making a bad choice, they have a fear of being taken advantage of. And I don't want to be foolish, and I don't want to fall for this and buy this product and find out it's not any better than anything else, because then I'm going to feel stupid.

Yeah.

So our job is to get people past that. I'll jump back to the background thing for. Just to wrap that up. I am now a neuro linguistics programmer. I now have a master's degree in neuro linguistics programming and hypnotherapy. So that makes me a psychotherapist, which I have no intentions on going out and practicing.

Thank you.

I will practice on you after this. And I'm currently in a PhD program and will eventually be a doctor of neuro linguistics programming and hypnotherapy. And yes, I will be requiring you to refer to me as doctor after that happens.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Get the piece of paper first.

So what, we won't make you call me doctor for today, but at any rate, also just to elaborate on that, I. And let me tell you why the hypnosis came involved.

Yes.

So neuro linguistics programming is really.

About.

You know, using words and images to cause changes in behavior while someone is not in a hypnotic state. Okay.

Okay.

But so when you look at hypnosis and nlp, they're kind of like they're two sides of the same coin.

Mm.

NLP is me using hypnotic language to cause a change in your behavior. Without me putting you into a hypnotic state.

Yeah.

Informal hypnosis. I'm going to sit down with you, I'm going to put you into a hypnotic state. I'm going to have you out, and then I'm basically going to use NLP on you to change your behavior.

Right.

So one is more clinical, one is more conversational. That's how I ended up on the hypnosis side, because as I was learning the NLP side, I realized, okay, this is kind of the same thing. And I also find that the hypnotic language, which is a little different than the nlp, does come into play in advertising copywriting from time to time.

Okay.

It does fit.

Okay, so let's start at the beginning. Okay. Again, for most of our listeners who may have never heard of nlp, give us a. I guess a broad definition of what neuro linguistics programming is.

Best way to describe neuro linguistics programming is first, let's break down the term neural brain linguistics. Words programming, how someone behaves.

Okay.

So what we're really talking about is affecting the brain with words. And we can do that with images and tonality, all these things come into play. All five senses come into play. And changing programs in people's brains. Because what we have to keep in mind is people don't realize this, but we're all running on programs. We all have these programs. You get in your car in the morning and you drive to work. That's a program. And when you do get in that car, you don't get in and think, okay, where does the key go? Now, is there a lever here that I have to pull? And now what do I do with these pedals down here?

Right.

You get in, you know exactly how it starts. You hit the levers, you hit the gas pedal, you pull out of the garage, you drive to work. And what's even more interesting is you drive to work on autopilot.

Absolutely.

So that right there is a hypnotic state. So let me add to this. There are people who say they cannot be hypnotized. I will say there is no such thing as someone who cannot be hypnotized. There's only bad hypnotists. Everyone is hypnotized. When you go to the movie and you really get wrapped up in a Star wars movie, that's a hypnotic state.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

When you're driving to work and you're thinking about all the things you're going to do when you get there, that's a hypnotic state. You're not driving down the freeway saying, oh, wait a minute, the car next to me is too close. Maybe I should move. And to give you an example of how the unconscious mind operates, let's say that you're driving down the freeway, you're thinking about going to work. A car swerves into your lane. You automatically, your unconscious mind jumps in, swing, looks in the mirror, swings that car out of the lane, avoids the accident. Before your conscious brain says, what the hell was that person doing? That person's an idiot. They almost hit me.

Okay. That's all that fight or flight mechanisms, all that lives in that unconscious part of your mind. Correct.

It does exist there, yes. So when we think of that, when we think of how people's brains work, I want people to envision, so I'm going to create a visual. First off, I want you to visualize a grape. And that grape is sitting on top of a beach ball. And between the grape and the beach ball is a dime.

Okay.

That grape represents your conscious mind, which can process about seven bits of information per second, plus or minus two. And this is why telephone numbers are seven digits, because research showed that that was the most numbers that people could on average, remember. Also from advertising. If you think about this, Justin, how many words. What's the maximum number of words you put in an ad headline?

7.

What's the maximum number of words you put on a billboard?

Seven.

There's two reasons. One, it's the most people can remember. And two, seven words is actually something that the human brain can read as a phrase before our eyes actually start to go left to right and read word at a time.

Interesting.

So when we see a seven word headline on a billboard, we can look at the entire phrase and we know what it says without our eyes going.

Across, which is a good thing when you're driving.

And this is why I complain so much about. The majority of billboards are done by creatives who have no idea what they're doing. Because if there's more than seven words up there, you're wasting your time. Yeah. Or you're just trying to kill people on the freeway. So this conscious brain handles seven bits of information. Seven numbers, seven words, whatever the case is. Now we have the unconscious mind, and that's the beach ball. That beach ball can process thousands of bits of information per second.

Okay?

So that beach ball, we're back on the road and we're driving and that person swerves in into our lane. That beach ball knows to apply the brakes. Look, the person swinging on the left, apply the brakes. Look in the right hand mirror. See that? Nobody's there. Swerve the car out of the right hand mirror, look in front to make sure that when I jump in that lane, I'm not going to hit another car. Jump back in the lane that I was just in and look in the left hand mirror to see how much room I need to miss the car that almost came into me. It can do all those processes and it can do them in less than a second. It can do them in a flash. Now, I told you there was a dime involved.

Yeah, yeah.

That dime represents what we will call critical faculty.

What?

That's called critical faculty.

Okay.

Seven bits of information.

Yeah.

Thousands of bits of information. And the dime represents your ability to process the data.

Okay.

Okay. Now, when we're working with people, whether we're trying to help someone quit smoking or whether we're helping, trying to help them buy a new pain medication, Our job is to get past that conscious brain, get past the critical thinking and speak directly to the unconscious mind.

Okay.

And let me add one thing to that. Priya's question.

Yes.

I want you to think of that grape as a spam filter.

Okay?

So when I say, you know, and this is going to be the greatest car you've ever owned, try a test drive today. The conscious mind is saying, it's a bunch of crap. It's just another ad. The conscious mind is there to protect me, to stop my unconscious mind from falling for this. Okay. My unconscious mind is looking at this video of this slick Corvette and it's saying, oh my God, that car looks amazing. And I'll bet it's really cool to drive. And I would love to go drive that thing.

Yeah. But hold on. First question is that conscious mind. Isn't the conscious mind really where more of your rational thinking occurs?

It's where people think their rational thinking is occurring.

Okay, so it's not.

It really isn't, but it's where people think it is. Think of your brain very much like a computer. If we look at a computer, you have. What do you have? You have flash drive or hard drive, which is where the memory is. Then you have ram, which is that short term memory of the computer. And then you have the processor.

Right.

Okay. How big is the processor?

Right.

That's the dime.

Yep.

The beach ball is the hard drive or the flash memory. And the grape is the RAM memory that you're currently working in at this second.

Okay.

It is amazing, by the way, how similar our brains are to computers.

Yeah.

Just as we can always have this as another conversation. Just as when we look at the actual coding of DNA of the human body, it looks like code. It looks like computer code.

Yeah. Interesting. So my understanding of nlp, at least what most NLP practitioners do now, and what this practice is mostly used for is for lack of better term, self help or professionals are starting to reach out to NLP practitioners to help them, whether that's self management or managing other employees. So you started getting into how it is applied to advertising. So let's jump back into that. I get it. We've got the grape and we're trying to get to the beach ball. Why are we trying to get to the beach ball? Is the first question I have.

Because the beach ball is actually where the buying decisions are made.

Okay. Explain that to me when you decide.

To go buy that new Corvette or buy a bottle of Tylenol.

Yeah.

All of the data, all of the life experience you have, every opinion you have about aspirin, about analgesics, about pain, everything you've ever known, everything you've ever been exposed to in your entire life exists in that unconscious mind. Because keep in mind, every memory you've ever had in your life is still in there.

Okay?

And even though you can't recall necessarily what you had for lunch on October 3rd. Yeah, the memory's there. And when we start accessing data, all of those little snippets of memory go into our collective decision. So an example, to give you an example of that, think about. We can have a phone call with a client, and a client could start to tell us about a product, and before they're finished talking, I can tell the client, look, the issue is this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. Yeah, that's because the collective data in my brain of the ad industry for so many years brings those conclusions to the executive.

Okay.

Okay. So it brings it to that critical faculty, that executive thinking. All of those thoughts, all of those memories bring it to the executive as if it's intuition, when in reality, it's stored collective experience that is delivering the answer. So when you go to the store and you decide to buy that bottle of Tylenol, I want to impact your experience. I want to change your core programming so that you can now come to the conclusion that, yes, I can try something different. Yes, I can overcome my fear of change, which is one of the problems we have to overcome when we're selling. Because again, folks, and this topic is so big, and we can apologize if we run off in different directions, but when we're talking about humans, the number one fear that humans have is fear of change. It's not the fear of public speaking. It's not the fear of death. It's the fear of change. And if you don't believe me, go talk to a woman who's in an abusive relationship and ask her why she didn't leave him. Yeah, go talk to a drug addict and say, why aren't you quitting? Talk to someone who smokes and say, do you know smoking is bad for your health? My guess is they know this. So ask them, why haven't you changed? Well, they're going to say, because it's addictive. No, what they're really telling you is I'm afraid of life without this. I'm afraid of how I will feel if I don't have this. I'm afraid if I leave him, will someone else ever love me? How will I support myself? If maybe that's important. So it's fear of change. Well, that same fear of change comes into play when we buy a new product.

Yeah, absolutely.

Justin, have you ever found yourself at a retail store and you're looking at the shelf, and you pick up 2, 3, 4 items in the same category. Like, which one of these should I get?

Oh, yeah. Happens all the time. All the time.

Right. So what's the issue there? The issue there is you already have one that you probably have one that you use, and you're making a decision. Is this better?

Yeah.

So our job in advertising is to get you to one, understand it is better. Why it's better now to reach into that unconscious mind, literally at an emotional level, and help you overcome your fear of change so that we can help you make your life better.

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Well, and even going along the same thought pattern, when you talked about that humans that we are, we are pattern machines, I think back to any time I go to the store when I'm purchasing anything. Now, I'm a very organized person, so I usually go with a list. So when I go to the store, I've got my list put together. So when I'm going down each aisle, there are hundreds of products. I don't see any of them. I don't see any of it. So I'm assuming every shopper is exactly the same way. They go there, and maybe the product they're looking for might stick out, but it's because they're on that pattern. They're on that autopilot. So somehow we have to break that pattern for them to go and find a product that they weren't going there originally for, potentially, or it's brand new to them. Right.

And there's two issues here. One is there are certain people that we want to create a new pattern.

Yeah.

So let's say that we're selling people on the idea of prepared side dishes, and they're a family that's never bought a prepared side dish. So now we're trying to create a new pattern. But let's say that we're handling a spaghetti sauce, and you go to the shelf and there's a hundred freaking brands of spaghetti sauce.

At least. At least.

And your family has been buying ragu, Right. For the past 10 years. And I want you to not pick up that jar ragu. And I want you to pick up the jar of prego. Right now I have to change a behavior, change a pattern that's very entrenched in your mind.

Yeah. That doesn't sound easy to do.

It's not always easy, but there are ways of making it easier.

Okay, how are those?

Well, that's using, you know, obviously using different techniques.

Okay.

So one of the things we want to do. I'll give you an example. I'm going to grab some notes here just so I don't screw things up. And where did I put my notes?

That's never happened before, Mark. So.

So one of the things we want to do is we want to use things that are. That as an example are like power words.

Okay.

These are words that cause emotional responses. They cause visceral responses in people.

Okay.

So some of those words are words like money, save, results, health, easy, love, discovery, proven, new, safety, guarantee, free, fast, secrets, power, announcing benefits, solution. Stuff where people, you know, when people hear new, guaranteed. So I hear new. Oh, I've never been exposed to this. This might be better. Guaranteed.

Wow.

They're going to take the risk out of my trying this. Proven. Huh? So someone else has already done the work to make sure this is going to work for me. Results. Well, great. I want results. So look at the results these people got. And then we lean into such things as, you know, social proof. So look at the results these other people got. Well, why is it important? Because I want to be like other people. I don't want to be your guinea pig.

Right.

And I believe that the collective. And it's just funny because on the conscious mind, you don't believe the collective is smarter than you, but on the unconscious level, you do believe the collective is smarter than you.

Yep. So. Right.

So I'm going to lean into that. So that's. That's kind of the first place we start. Then we do things like implanting.

Implanting, yes. That sounds invasive.

So let me give you an example of an implant. What I would do with an implant is I would actually give you a phrase to create a momentary trance in your mind. Just a split second trance. So split second trance would be, wouldn't you love to get pizza tonight? The thought of marinara sauce and melting cheese. Now, when I start to do that, you get a visual of that.

Yes.

So when I start saying the thought of marinara sauce running down the edge and the melting cheese on the top of the pizza, you start to see it.

Yes.

When I start to create that visual, I start to hijack your unconscious mind.

So that's what I was wondering. Besides the visual, what else is the reason for the trance?

I am putting you in this slight emotional trance. And when I do that, the conscious part of your brain goes offline.

Okay.

So now I've got the spam filter turned off and I've got my hand right inside the hard drive. And now I can play around with the big Memory.

Yeah. Okay.

Okay. So does that make sense?

Makes sense.

Now the next thing that we'll talk about is something called a because statement.

A because statement?

Yes.

Okay.

So, people, it is the nature of humans to crave reason.

Yeah. I need to know why.

I need to know why. So when I tell you, Justin, XYZ Pizza makes the best pizza in Detroit. Okay, you like pizza?

Absolutely.

You're interested in the best pizza.

But why?

We don't have a relationship.

Right?

Because you might just trust me because you know me, but we don't have a relationship. So it's a radio ad saying this is the best, best pizza in metro Detroit. And you're going to say, oh, yeah, why?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I can resolve that by doing something called a because state. So a because statement is that. Here's how a because statement works. When I give you the first part of a sentence and then I follow it with because, you. Your brain just totally. In that split second, your brain totally focuses on because. Aha, here it comes. And the first part of the sentence that I delivered you bypasses the conscious mind and goes into the unconscious mind. Okay, so let me give you an example. Back in 1989, a great researcher by the name of Dr. Ellen Langer, and she's done numerous research, she did this research, and this was amazing. So what she did is she went to college campuses where kids were standing in line to use the copy machine. Okay, you did that in 1989.

I was too.

And she had paid actors go up to cut in line. So you're talking about a long line.

So people sitting there for.

People are standing there for quite a while waiting to make their copies for their school papers to turn in. So she had actors go up. And the first thing the actors did, they went up and they said, do you mind if I cut in line? And over 70% of people said, yes, I mind. You're not cutting in line. Okay. Now the same actors, so always the same actors right now, they started going up saying, excuse me, do you mind if I cut in line? Because I'm going to be late for class if I don't. Almost 80% of people said, sure. Okay. Now that seems like a pretty good reason though, doesn't it?

It does, yeah. Yeah, it does.

Okay. She then had people say, do you mind if I cut in line? Because I don't like standing in line.

An awful reason.

The same percentage of people still allowed it.

Why? I don't understand what's because.

Whatever my because statement was, was irrelevant because I gave you A reason. And the first thing I said to you went straight into your unconscious mind as if it was an order, as if it was a command. Just. You mind if I cut in lines? I don't. I hate lines.

Well, okay, now I'm thinking about it. So.

So we crave. We crave these. These excuses. We crave reasons. I'll give you a thing you could try with. With small kids. And I proved this to my wife one day with our daughter. So my daughter's room, like any kid, was a mess.

Yep.

Never cleaned a room. I walked in the room, Andy, need to clean your room tonight because we're going to go to dinner tomorrow. Well, why would going to dinner tomorrow be a big deal?

Yeah, it means nothing.

But guess what? She cleaned a room because I gave her a reason. And what happened was, andy, you need to clean your room tonight because we're going to go to dinner tomorrow. Andy, you need to clean your room tonight. Became a command.

Does this work on spouses as well, or is it just kids?

It can.

Okay. All right. Well, we can talk after the show.

We'll need to talk off here for that.

Yeah. Yeah, I need to get those secrets.

But these things work. Now, let me give you another example. I know you have some questions there, but let me give you another example.

Yeah.

Another example would be embedding a command.

Okay. I mean, you're saying it so I can see how it'd be important, but embedding a command.

What if I said, go to CVS now and buy product X.

Okay.

Now, you notice I said that in a very direct fashion.

Yes.

And if I just said to you, go to CVS now and buy X, you may or may not listen.

Right?

But what if I said, imagine how you'll feel tomorrow when you go to CVS now and buy X, and I might wrap it up and feel the difference. Now, what I would do is I would say, imagine how you feel when you go to CVS now. Now notice how my voice inflection changed because I took that soft voice. Imagine how great you'll feel tomorrow when you go to CVS now and buy that voice. That tonality changes to a direct instruction. It directs to an order, because I buried it in the tonality of a friendly sound, and I close it on the tonality of a loving, friendly sound. The direct command makes it pass, in many cases, makes its way past the unconscious, the conscious brain. Now, keep in mind, if I'm telling you, if I'm trying to sell you a pain product, and I say, you're going to feel great when you go to CVS now and buy product X and feel the difference. I'm not going to sell it to you if you didn't want it.

Absolutely. Right.

So if you didn't have a pain, forget it. You're tuned out.

Right.

But if you had the pain, I'm going to help you overcome your own fear by giving you a direct instruction to go do it.

Okay, that makes sense. So here's a big question, and especially within advertising and marketing in this day and age, everybody, it doesn't matter what your product is, who you're trying to sell to, Everybody's overstimulated right now. We have access to too much.

Yes.

So are there any techniques that can help when we're working on creative to help kind of break through the noise, to actually engage that. That viewer or listener, that consumer?

So there's a couple things we need to do when we're dealing with people. We need to. First off, we need to remember that humans operate within a framework of reference. So I want you to envision for a minute a picture frame on the wall. And inside that picture is all of your human experience and everything that you believe is inside that frame.

Okay.

When I talk to you inside that frame, you and I have rapport. I have credibility. He's like me. We think a lot alike. We have an ethos with each other. When I drift outside of your frame, you now must question me. And when you question me, then you may not believe me, depending on what kind of rapport I have with you. And keep in mind, brands have rapport.

Absolutely.

Harley Davidson has rapport with their owners.

Absolutely. Especially with the emergence of social media.

Right. So just like you would have rapport with a human, you can have rapport with a brand or a product.

Yep.

So I need to work inside that frame. So the first thing is I want to speak to you in universal truths.

Universal truths? What do you mean?

A universal truth is something that you're going to agree with.

Okay. So.

So if I was to say to you, Justin, you know, I think that the political climate today is just too angry.

Yeah.

You would say. Yeah, that's truthful statement.

Yeah.

And I don't need you to be a Democrat or Republican to agree with me.

Right.

So notice I didn't have to take a side. No, I just said the political atmosphere in this country is too angry. If you're a Democrat, you might say the President's too angry.

Right.

If you're a Republican, you might say that the Democrats in Congress are too angry. I don't care. Because I stayed inside your frame and you filled in the blanks.

Right.

So you and I automatically agreed. And by the way, chances are you now believe that we share the same political belief. Interesting, because you will assign that to it. So I'm staying inside the frame. I'm speaking universal truths. We have this, we're creating this rapport. The next thing I want to do is I probably want to say a series of comments to you that you will constantly say yes to. And again, I'm giving you ideas. This isn't in every piece of creative, but this is one way. So Newton's second law. Newton's second law. A thing in motion tends to stay in motion until acted upon by an outside force. That same thing happens to humans. So if I can get momentum in your brain, in your thinking, that momentum will stay with me. So if I have a TV commercial that says, attention senior citizens over the age of 65, if you are a senior citizen over the age of 65, you will say okay. In your brain, you raised your hands. And people that are concerned with getting the best Medicare coverage.

Yep.

Okay. If you have a concern about getting the best Medicare coverage.

Yep.

I raise my hand. So attention Americans over 65 years old that are concerned with getting the best coverage in best Medicare coverage. Okay, great. Yes. Yes. Would you like to learn how to lower your premium costs while reducing your out of pocket expenses?

Yes.

Are you right? You said yes to the first two. Can you possibly say yes, no to the third one?

Right. I'm already in motion.

I can't say no to it.

Yep.

Okay. So we want to try to get at least three of these. The greatest example of this was done, believe it or not, back in the 50s and 60s and it was by a company called Encyclopedia Britannica. So way before the Internet and before you were around, many of us as kids used to have this enormous collection of encyclopedias in our house. And these books would take up a table, all these books, because you'd have the book A and B and C and so on and so forth. And I, for recreation one time actually read the entire encyclopedia.

And you were popular as a kid.

Oh, I was. That's a whole nother show. That's a series. So anyways, the salesman, they would sell these encyclopedias door to door now.

Yeah.

How they sold them door to door. They used to. Door to door vacuum cleaners, door to door, encyclopedia salesmen. I mean, that's hardcore selling.

Yeah, I saw it on Mad Men once. They Sold windows.

All right.

Yeah.

And here's how it worked. Good afternoon. Are you the lady of the house?

Yes.

If yes, go to the second question. If no, get off the porch and stop wasting your time.

On to the next one.

Good afternoon, ma'. Am. Are you the lady of the house? It's great to meet you. Do you have young children? If no, get off the porch. If yes, continue to. Next question. Are you interested in learning how your children could improve their education and their prospects for being successful adults?

Well, if you have the children, it has to be yes, right?

Right. Because the next question is no. I'd really prefer my kids to be morons.

Right. No, I like them dumb in the basement.

Exactly. And if I could show you how to do this and it wouldn't cost you anything, would that be something that you might give me a few minutes of your time to learn?

And done. You got me.

Now, at the end of that, now I'm in the house and I'm only asking questions that a reasonable person would say yes to. The more times you say yes, the more likely you are to keep saying yes. Thing in motion tends to stay in motion to like the bomb on outside forest.

Yep.

So this works in advertising. So that's why you'll see some of us are familiar with seeing TV commercials that says, you know, attention people. You know, people born before 1949. Oh, I was born before 1949. That's why that works, because I'm getting this. This yes statement.

Okay.

Another thing that runs down that path is called a compliance statement.

Okay?

So a compliance statement might mean where I actually give you a set of instructions. So I might say, just imagine, if you will, the marinara sauce running across the pizza with the bubbling cheese and the pepperonis on top. Now, what I'm doing is I'm creating a picture, but I'm also getting you to take orders from me.

Okay, you told me to imagine, so.

Yes, Imagine for a moment. Okay?

Right.

Marinara sauce, Jack. Bubbling mozzarella cheese, crisp pepperonis. I'm not only creating a visual picture, I'm actually getting you to take orders from me.

Okay?

Now, when I tell you to go buy said pizza, what's going on, thing in motion tends to stay in motion.

Okay?

So that's some of the things we do. Now, we also do something, too, that we'll refer to as closing loops.

Okay?

So closing the loop would be everyone wants to live pain free. Isn't that true? So instead of letting you answer the question, I actually close the loop for you. So you have to agree, right?

Okay.

So I just. I just loop those ends in there, right? And I close it.

Okay?

I stop. I stop. Any opportunity for you to have another thought on this subject. Now, we use another thing which is called prepositions, similar to how you would see it, but we actually call this presupposition. And the way we use them is this. We can presuppose something so we can recreate the past in order to future cast what's going to happen.

All right?

So I want to recreate your past. Recreating your past, I might say. Can you imagine the inconvenience it is to stand in a long line at your favorite grocery store? Now, maybe you've never done that.

But.

I could actually make you think what it would be like. But at store xyz, you're always the next person in line, okay? So there's never waiting.

Okay?

So I create the pain. Whether the pain existed or not, I just create it. And now I give you the solution to it. You know, isn't it terrible to stand in a line for 20 minutes just to pay you to pay for your groceries?

Right.

What's the answer? Yes. And you can feel it whether you've done it or not. Now, at store xyz, I could even make it stronger. At store xyz, you're guaranteed to be the next person in line.

Okay? Those power words.

And I created a pain and I took the pain away all in one slot. So I can recreate your past.

Yes.

Another thing we do, and this is very NLP ish, is to speak to people in metaphors.

Oh, yeah.

Now, when we think about the Bible, the Bible basically is a book of metaphors or parables, right? So it's talking to people and delivering information to them in such a fashion that I'm going to cause a change in their behavior, even though I'm not even talking directly about the product or the problem that they're even having.

Okay.

Because I can create a story through words and visuals.

Interesting.

So as an example, here's. I'm going to give you. I'm going to give you a therapeutic answer. A therapeutic answer. Somebody comes in and I'm talking to them, and I'll tell you what the problem is in a minute. And this. I'll tell you the problem. So somebody comes in and a woman comes in and she. Let's say she sits down and she says, no matter what I'm doing, I can't get my daughter to do the right thing.

Okay?

I put her in the Best schools. I did all these things, but she's still partying and using drugs, and I'm really struggling with trying to figure out how to get her to do the right thing. Now, I might tell her. I might just tell her a story. I might say, you know what? I'm going to. I want to tell you. I'm going to tell you a story about a bumblebee. You might think it's a little weird, but I just want to tell you the story. This is called Bumblebee number 158. And Bumblebee 158 goes out, and he leaves the hive one day, and he flies all over the place until he finally comes across a meadow that has the biggest collection of the most beautiful flowers you could ever think of. And he flew in this very odd path to get there because he didn't know where it was. So he flew north, he flew south, he flew east, he flew west until he finally came upon it. Now, what bumblebees do is when they find something like this, they immediately go back to the hive and they tell everyone else. They tell all the other bees where it's located. So Bumblebee158 goes back to the hive. He tells all the other bumblebees. There's. In bumblebee language, there's this beautiful meadow full. All the flowers, all the bumblebees take off out of the hive. They head directly to the meadow to go hit those flowers, right? But Bumblebee158 doesn't do that. Bumblebee158 flies north, flies south, goes east, goes west, and goes through all the patterns that Bumblebee158 did in order to find it. Now, what we're telling that person, when we're giving them that story, we're telling them, you can go tell somebody how to get someplace, but have you figured out how to tell yourself how to get there? Maybe you need to stop worrying about what your daughter's doing, because you can't change other people and focus on figuring out how to change how you respond to her behavior. So we create these metaphors of being able to help people, and you don't tell them what the metaphor means, just like you don't tell them what the story in the commercial necessarily meant either. But these are ways that we have impact on people. So you had some questions. What were some of the questions you had?

So a lot of the questions I had, you've definitely touched upon a lot of them. You know, the biggest thing that we deal with Every day in advertising right now, as we talked about, is that there's just so much of it right now. Yes.

You were talking about that clutter.

Right. There's so much clutter right now. And so, especially with a lot of the clients that we get to work with every day, and we talk about this on other shows all the time, is they don't have the budgets of the big brand, so they can't just sit there and say, hey, I'm just going to have the biggest megaphone, so no worries. I'm louder than everybody. I'm going to win. They can't do that. So we have to find creative ways to be able to, again, break through that noise.

So getting back to that, thank you for bringing me back there. We want to, first off, deal with those people in the framework of their. Of their beliefs, get them into rapport, get them into saying, yes, I dig these folks. These people are cool. They're like me. I trust them. And they're not saying that in their head. It's a very unconscious thing. And then what we might do is we might want to do something to cause what's called a PGO spike in their brain.

PGO spike.

So PGO spike, and what that is really causing is causing a momentary flash in the occipital lobe of the brain.

Okay, what's it doing?

What's it doing is it's shocking the person. So when I shock the person for this momentary second, I can deliver a piece of information directly to the unconscious mind that fast. And I can get it in.

Okay?

So here's an example of how to use PGO spike in real life.

Yeah.

Your wife comes, comes at you, okay? She's upset, she's angry.

Please.

She's going on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

She would never say that.

And as she's doing that, you look her right in the eye and you say, you know, I like Popsicles, too.

Oh, she'd hit me.

She won't hit you. You say that for a split second, she's going to freeze. What exactly. What happens is a PGO spike. The brain can't make sense of what was just put in front of it. She's coming at you. She's going crazy. This is a big one. She's really crazy.

Big one.

And you say, you know, dear, I just want to let you know I tried to put my shoe on my left elbow tomorrow, and I did it three times and it wouldn't fit. And now she's taking in all that information. She's like, what the hell are you talking about?

I feel like you've used that one actually.

Yes.

Yes. Oh, yeah.

What the hell are you talking about? And you say it's not important. Worry about it. Now, let's talk about what's bothering you.

Right.

You will bring that whole conversation down 10 levels because their brain was in a cycle. So the brain was in this cycle. It's in this. The particular brain is in this anger cycle.

So same momentum you might get with the yes set that you're talking about.

Being in motion tends to stay in motion. Acted upon by the outside force. Trying to put my shoe on my elbow tomorrow three times and it not fitting is the outside force.

Yep.

I just stopped the rock from rolling down the mountain.

Right.

It just hit a barrier.

Yeah.

And I bring the people down. Well, you can do this in advertising, too. You can create that momentary odd event that makes people's mind go, er.

Right.

What?

Okay, now are you talking within creative? Are you talking. You know, because the one thing that this kind of brings me back to, especially with the emergence of social media, is the Facebook feed. Right. Just the non stop scrolling of random stuff. How do you break that pattern?

So let's say I'm dealing with a toenail fungus product and I'm scrolling through Facebook and all of a sudden a story pops up that says, the dirty little secret your nail salon doesn't want you to know. Okay, that's disruptive. That's a pgo spike. You're going, whoa, what the hell? What is that? So now I'm going to go read it because you jammed me up, you jammed my brain up when you said that.

So that's the secret in our minds, especially when we're talking about. And I want to make sure this is clear when you're advertising, specifically in that really crowded space of social media that you need to have, that it's really about that disruptive creative. If you're trying to drive an ad.

Exactly. So another example, a product sticking with our fungus model. Another example, a product that is, pardon the term for jock itch.

Yeah.

Okay. What was the ad we created? We created an ad with a hot girl.

Yes, we sure did.

You know, I think a referee shirt.

Yep, it was.

And I believe she was holding a couple of soccer balls or basketballs.

Yep, yep.

And the headline said, scrub the funk off your junk.

Yep, sure did.

Now, your brain, your young man, your brain says, did they just say that?

Did she just say that to me? Yes.

And after your brain. Now Think about it. After your young man, after your brain said, I don't believe they just said that, then what does your brain say next? I get these guys. They're cool. I have an ethos now. I'm building rapport. Even though I jammed up your thinking, I went straight into rapport when I did that. Because you're a 25 year old guy who's a gym rat, right?

Yeah.

And the third thing I did was I also got you with the universal truth. Yeah, Yeah. I do get the funk on my junk. And yeah, that's probably a really good idea. And hot girls probably don't dig it.

Right? Not a big fan. Well, and you bring up another good point too. And this is something else that we always emphasize with all of our clients when again, we're advertising specifically in this space. Because another really powerful tactic is video. Video is huge right now. And as soon it's very engag. We constantly are making sure that clients understand that they need to make sure that that first two seconds, two or three seconds of their ad has to do exactly what you're talking about or you've lost them.

And that's where sometimes you even getting a little bit off nlp. But you may be bringing a celebrity. So we have TV commercial running right now for Bob Evans side dishes. And it has Alfonso Ribeiro.

Yep.

Who was from Fresh Prince and does a game show. And another comedian by the name of Jerry o'. Connell. Most people know if they see him.

Yep.

And you see Alfonso in a grocery store. Okay. Now the reason that's disruptive is because that's not the setting I'm used to seeing him in. So I recognize who he is, but the setting makes no sense.

Right.

Then I see Jerry o' Connell crash into his shopping cart with another shopping cart.

Right.

Okay. Now there's another guy that I recognize. And they're crashing shopping carts into each other. What's this about?

Mm.

So now my mind is going, okay, this. This isn't making sense to me. I want to see what this is about.

Yep.

Now they start. Now they go to the potatoes. They sample the potatoes. They sample the Mac and cheese. And now a fight ensues because they want to buy, they want all of them. And security ends up throwing them out of the building, which now brings the customer to say, wow, this stuff probably is really tasty. And it seems really easy to make. And by the way, these guys are kind of cool.

Yeah.

I have a rapport with them. I get it.

Right.

I like them. So remember when we're doing things like humor in a commercial. We're not doing humor because we want to be entertainment. Let television shows be entertaining entertainment. We're here to sell product.

Yeah.

We can use humor as a way of establishing more rapport, and that is nlp.

Okay.

It's getting that relationship.

That makes sense. That makes sense. And just like what you described there, that, that, that one spot talking about it disrupted, you brought in a frame of reference. Because now we're in a grocery store, they're talking about the product. So I'm a scratch made kind of guy. Okay.

Yeah.

Sometimes I do that too. Well, we got this stuff. You can make it in six minutes. Da, da. Oh, that would be great. You've everything that you needed to to sell a product using these skills.

Now I'm gonna give you another example of NLP done. Right?

Okay.

On tv.

Okay.

Tony Robbins. Now, I want people to understand this has no reference to whether you love President Trump, hate President Trump, or don't even know who President Trump is. President Trump was taught a lot of NLP tricks by Tony Robbins.

Yeah, yeah, you told me that. Yeah.

And Tony's best at it. During the debates, Donald Trump used NLP to wipe out 16 other people competing.

Who were more qualified to be president than he was.

He was. He'd never even held any office.

Right.

And I mean, mowed them down like a lawnmower.

Yeah, yeah.

So here's what happened. I'm gonna give you this example. Megyn Kelly is hosting a debate. She says, Mr. Trump, you've been accused of calling women dogs and pigs. Okay?

Yeah, yeah.

Now here's what Donald Trump did. He says, yes, I did. PGO Spike.

Right.

Cause your brain goes, did he just admit that?

Right. There's no way he's gonna say that.

Because what you expected was him to say, Megan, Those words were taken out of context. Cause that's what a politician would normally say.

Right?

Right, Megan. Yes, I did say that. And then he goes, but I was only talking about Rosie o'. Donnell. Now what he did is he caused a PGO spike. He brought in humor. He brought in someone that most people don't like and transferred the feelings that were fired at him onto Rosie o'.

Donnell.

Because now the pup, the population, the public at this point isn't thinking about Donald Trump calls women dogs. They're thinking, Rosie o' Donnell's a dog. Now, Megyn Kelly comes back at him and says, but it's been said you've called other women that.

Yeah.

Now what does Donald Trump do next? Does he deny it?

No, we can't. Right?

He didn't deny it.

But.

Do you want us. But is he gonna raise his hand and say, well, yeah, I kind of call women pigs and dogs.

That's not what you expect.

So he points his finger at Megan Kellett. By pointing his finger at her, he's reducing her. He's. He's turning her. He's subjectifying her to being less than him.

Okay.

Because he's pointing at her like scolding.

Okay, all right.

And he says, megyn Kelly, check your facts. Check your facts, Megan.

So now people are doubting.

Now, what did the audience hear? Oh, Megan Kelly doesn't check her facts.

Right.

They never noticed ever that he completely dodged the question.

Yeah.

That'S the correct way to use nlp. And I'm not saying that it was NLP used for good.

No, no, no.

I'm saying he learned how to use it.

Absolutely.

He took what was a very flammable situation of I'm running for president and I call women pigs and dogs. Not a great plan, right?

Not usually, no.

I threw it at somebody else, and when it came back at me, I threw it back at another person. And I immediately kept taking the public and moving their eyes to where I wanted their eyes to go. So I want you to think of the old trick of the pea under the shell. I've got three shells and one pea, right?

Yes.

And I'm moving the shells back and forth and back and forth, and I. All I want you to do is guess where it is. And you can never guess where it is. Right. Three card Monty.

Yep.

Now what if I can do three card Monty with words?

Okay.

Because that's what he did. He did three Card Monty.

Yeah.

With. With words.

Right. So the reason that again, we apply this practice and we've talked about a lot of techniques so far, we don't.

Call anybody pigs and dogs.

We don't call anybody pigs and dogs. Not in the air.

Except. Except Rosie o'. Donnell. You're supposed to call him.

All right, all right.

I'm just trying to follow.

So what we're trying to do, as you said, the goal is to educate consumers that have a problem and help them get past their fears and their barriers in order to have a new experience that could benefit them. That is the goal of what we're doing here.

And we do that by showing them problems, maybe creating the problem. Ring around the collar. Ring around the collar was never an issue until it caused. Called out.

Yeah. Right.

And Wisk was the answer.

Right.

So we point out the. We point out the problem or create the problem.

Right?

We then demonstrate the solution. We build rapport, we build ethos. I get these guys, I trust them. They're like me. Everyone wants to do business with someone who's like me. Not me, but like you.

Yes, Right.

We all trust someone who is like ourselves the most.

Right? So here's a question I have for you then. With an approach to creative that is this methodical, is it still creative? Are we losing some of the art form that is advertising by applying such a science?

Well, there are people who will argue that in both ways. There are people who are on the pure creative side who will argue that, well, you shouldn't let such structure and science get in the way of the creative flow.

Yeah, yeah, I've heard it.

Yep, absolutely. But here's the reality. The reality is you start by letting the creative knowing what you're after, letting the creative flow happen. Okay? Now we have this creative picture. Now how do we make it better using science? Okay, We've got a good look, we've got a good gag, we've got a good story. Now how can we insert power words? How can we embed some commands? How can we create a because statement? How can we do a presupposition so that we can basically frame what we want people to know? It doesn't interfere with the creative. It makes the creative. Enhances the creative.

So it's just like we always say, we can't sell a bad product, right?

All the advertising in the world is never going to sell a bad product long term. Sell it short term, sure, but it will not sell it long term.

So the scientific approach to the creative, as you said it, it only helps to, as you put it, helps to drive those results. It's not going to. It doesn't hinder the creative itself or the image or the art form of it, but it's going to help you drive that sale. It's going to help you get to the result that you're looking for.

I'm going to tell you a quick metaphor to wrap up here. And this was a metaphor that was performed by Mike Mandela, okay? And Mike Mandel is, I've learned a lot of mine has been going to Mike Mandel at University Toronto. Dr. Mandel is one of the best hypnotists, hypnotherapists, NLP practitioners alive.

Okay?

He took the entire class, and this is several years back, took the entire class on a Monday or a Tuesday. And he closes every class with a metaphor at the end of the day, you do an all day class. And he always closes the class with the daily metaphor.

Okay?

He never tells you what the message was in the metaphor. So the metaphor was this. I got a phone call from a friend of mine last week. He was somebody from college that I haven't seen in ages. We were really good friends back in, you know, in middle school, junior high. And we lived down the street from each other. And I lived about four houses from the corner. And he lived right around the other side of the corner. So his house was kind of like on the other side of the corner house from where I lived. And we would go and we would play together. And we were kids, and as we grew up, so on and so forth. But as we got out of high school, we moved into college. We kind of went in different directions. And I hadn't seen him in a long time. He called me up out of nowhere and said, hey, I'm in town. Can you meet up for lunch? I said, well, geez, that seems like a great idea, so why not? So I was teaching a class, and I left the class for the lunch break, and I went downstairs in the elevator. And as I went downstairs, I walked out the front door of the school. I looked over to the left, and I saw the university bookstore. And I saw the posters in the front window for different things that were for sale. And I walked around the corner, and I had to go several blocks over to meet him. And it was kind of weird to me because I'm looking, I'm saying this is a really seedy part of town that he wants me to meet him in. And I wonder why he picked that part of town. So I get there and I look, and he's wearing this gray tweed jacket, and he's got patches on the arm. And he's sitting at a park bench waiting for me to show up. And he has a briefcase in his hand. And I have no idea why he's dressed like this, because it's 98 degrees this day. 90 degrees. And this guy is wearing a tweed jacket. So at any rate, I catch up with him, we have lunch, we talk about the old days, and we decide, you know what? We shouldn't. We never should have parted company. We should have stayed together. And we decided we're going to not let this happen again. Okay, there's the metaphor.

That's the metaphor, okay?

On Thursday, Dr. Mandel asked the class in a show of hands how many people went downstairs to the school bookstore and bought the new CD from the band 98 Degrees this week.

Stop it.

Over 80% of the class went and bought the CD between the day he delivered it and the day that he asked. And some of them admitted they were not even a fan of the band 98 Degrees. Now think about what happened here. I went downstairs. I walked out the front door. I went around the corner, and I looked up at the windows where the bookstore was. In the window of the bookstore was a poster for 90 degrees new album. So I instructed people. I unconsciously instructed people. When you go down the elevator and walk out the front door of the school, turn to your left and look toward the window windows of the school bookstore and look at the posters. Think about it. I walked past and I looked up in the window. And I saw the posters for things for sale in the bookstore. Okay? I could not understand why my friend had me meet him in the seedy part of town. And now what else did I go? Why was he wearing a tweed jacket when it's 98 degrees out? And I gave you a very abbreviated version for the metaphor. So Mandel gives a much more elaborate version of it. And it's. And one of the things you'll notice, and he's brilliant at it. One of the things you'll notice, how colorful it is.

Okay?

I went down in the elevator. I was walking through the front door. And as I walked out the left, I looked up in the windows and I saw the posters on here. And then I went around the corner of the building. And he would. He would throw all kinds of features. And I got to the park and I noticed there was a lot of people in the park. There were some kids playing ball. There was some senior citizen sitting on a bench. He will round all this out. The reason he's rounding all that out is because he's distracting you. He's keeping the conscious part of your brain overwhelmed, occupied. That part of your brain that can only process seven bits of information.

Let's keep that busy.

Is overwhelmed. Because I'm saying. And I got to the park and there were some kids in the corner. I saw a couple line on a blanket. And there was a couple of senior citizens. One of them maybe had a walker. I felt kind of bad for.

For.

As I keep doing that, you keep creating those images. And I'm overwhelming your conscious brain, as I say. And I have no idea why my friend was wearing a tweed jacket with patches. Because it's 98 degrees. And I go straight into your unconscious mind. And I say, 98 degrees and seedy part of town.

Yep.

This is how, this is how it works. This is how we craft things that people don't even realize are part of the message. And at the best firms. Which has nothing to do with being the biggest firms.

Oh yeah.

This is what they do. If people want to learn more about this, I'm going to recommend. Besides for, you know, learning more from us, I would recommend they read books by Bob Cialdini. Dr. Cialdini has two books. One is called Influence, which he wrote 35 years ago and is still, it's a fantastic book and is still accurate at this moment.

Absolutely.

And a couple of years ago he came up with a new book called Pre Suasion.

Yeah, another great book which is really.

Getting into this PGO Spike kind of area where there's a split second between decision confusion where you can deliver messages. And I recommend people read both of those books because they're both great books if you want to learn more about the art of persuasion. But that's really what we're doing, Justin. When we bring nlp, hypnosis, hypnotherapy, other things that we, other modalities that we bring into this, we're bringing science in to be able to create these kind of effects.

Yeah.

What are the questions did you have because you had all these notes.

No, I've. You've covered most of the material I had. So you jumped the gun on me here. But I, you know, the, you know, the biggest thing that I wanted to make sure that any listener got out of the show is why we use nlp, how we use NLP or this NPA should say this advertising, it's real and it's real and it works. And you know, any, any of our clients can tell you when they experience and when they, when they are involved in the creative process with us. We sent back copy. Whether, no matter what it is and we walk through these steps and we show them now this is why we're saying it. That's the most important thing is to understanding and crafting a language in the story. And everything is intentional. Nothing is by accident when you get experienced.

With us, I was talking to a person who is from one of these super, super mega sized ad agencies.

Yeah.

This week. And she was telling me we don't do any of this. None of it. None, none of it.

Did she say why?

No time. We don't have the time to do things like that. Our job is to just keep, keep pushing out. And she's one of the things she'd said to me when a client Sits down with. When an employee in our agency sits down with me, one of the questions I say to them when they're showing me what they want to present a client is, is this how you would spend your money?

Absolutely.

She was telling me that when you sat down with someone in their agency, the question would be, is this going to win an award? What trophy are we going to win if we do this for us, the trophy isn't a plaque. The trophy is sales. Your sales, not my sales.

Absolutely not.

So what I would ask people is if you're in the business of selling consumer packaged goods, wouldn't it make sense to have all of your messaging and all of your advertising as optimized as possible to get the greatest result from consumers?

Yeah, I'd say so.

And by the way, that's using nlp because if you said no, there's something wrong with you.

Get out. All right, that's great. No, I'm. I've got. You've answered all my. Think that was a great show. Anything.

The reality is, folks, we've just spent an hour and would. The truth is we could spend eight hours on this easily because we're not even scraping the surface with it if we wanted to get into specifics. But if you do have more questions on it, I would really look into Robert Cialdini's books and we can put links to those in the show notes. There are some other things I could push you into. There's another great book by a doctor who wrote a book called Thinking Fast and Slow. I will warn you that that book is very wonky. It's very scientific. It's enormous.

It enormous.

And it's almost a book that you have to do a few pages at a time and just contemplate it.

Yes.

And go back where Cialdini's books are. Nice quick reads. You can go through them.

I agree with that.

You can always talk to us here at the agency if you have questions about how could you do this with your product.

Yes.

But the bottom line here is when you spend a dollar advertising your product, our job is to get the biggest return we can out of that dollar.

Yes.

We do that by buying the most efficient media and by not trying to win an award, but creating the most efficient message that will get the most number of responses to the people you show the message to.

Yep. That's it.

That's it for today. If you want to learn more, you can go to CPG insiders.com youm can go to Jekyll Hyde Agency or Jekyll hydelabs.com Feel free to contact us with any type of information or questions that you have. And also if you're enjoying the podcast, if you would go to itunes Stitcher, leave us a five star review because that lets us get this information out to more people and we'll see you on the next edition of CPG Insiders. If you're looking to greatly increase sales on your CPG product, don't hesitate to contact us at Jekyll and Hyde Advertising and Marketing. By the way, the only advertising agency with a guaranteed just go to jekyllhideagency.com or feel free to give us a call at 800-542 10.