When to Sell Your Company? – An Interview with David Biernbaum - Episode 35

Foreign.

Welcome everybody to this edition of CPG Insiders. It is 2021.

We made it.

I'm your host, Marc Young with my co host. What was your name again?

Aha.

Justin's right.

Yeah, there it is. He got it right this time.

And today we have a special guest, our good buddy and friend of the podcast and just one of my dearest friends, David Berenbaum. And folks, if you've listened to the podcast before, you know who David is. He is like the master broker genius of cpg. And you know what we're going to jump into today. So David, thanks for being with us.

Hey Mark. Hey Justin. Nice to be here.

And what we want to jump into today, David, is we get a lot of calls from people, and you do too, that they're building a company, they're building a CPG company because they want to sell it or people are starting to inquire about their company. And so the questions become, how do I know when it's time to sell and how do I price a company? So let's start with, let's start asking questions. What is the market? What's the appetite out there right now for buying CPG brands?

Well, the appetite is a little bit unstable, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing because I think it's going to start improving again. Like everything else during the COVID era, especially the first several months, everything kind of came to a halt because even major multinational consumer product companies just had no clue what was in the near future. So everything just kind of stopped for a while. But usually even when an economy slows down a little bit, that isn't necessarily a bad time for selling because major companies, the large ones, large brands aren't really inventing anything during those times. R and D is usually not that active. And so they're really looking to acquire entrepreneurial type brands in order to make their numbers.

Yeah, we've seen a few deals fall apart in March and April that were kind of. There was a few deals we were as close to and everybody kind of lost their interest in the deals. But I do agree with you. I think some of that is starting to come back.

And I think if you have a brand right now in a category that appeals to Amazon consumers and really still appeals to Walmart and especially Target consumers and supermarkets. HBC items for supermarkets are doing extremely well. Chain drug is struggling, there's no doubt about it. But that may or may not come back, you know, after everybody's vaccinated. Not real sure it'll come back at Least somewhat. But I think that with Chain Drug probably doing the vaccinations, I think their business this year could be really good in the back half, which means brands that appeal to Chain Drug could make a really good comeback.

Now, I think personally, and you will get a letter from me this week with some 2021 predictions. One of my predictions based on behavior is I don't think that brick and Mortar is ever going to come back to what it was pre Covid.

I agree.

No, and one of the big reasons is because once a consumer's behavior changes, it's very difficult to change the behavior back. So I'll give folks a quick idea. Let's say you have a grocery store, and we've been down this road. You have a grocery store, and construction starts in front of your store for six months on the road, and your customers all have to start going to another grocery store because yours is too hard to get to. When that construction's finished, you're only going to get about a third of those people back because their new shopping habit becomes a habit. And what has happened now is so many people have shifted their shopping habit to Amazon and to online that it becomes the new norm. And I don't feel compelled to go back to it. Especially when you start to think about people start to get in the mindset of, geez, I don't need to go to CVS because I can just tell Alexa to order more soap and shave cream and tight detergent, and it'll just magically show up tomorrow.

Well, and I think that's, to David's point, that's one of the biggest hits to the chain drugstores is going to be there because all those convenient items which they have built their business on now are more convenient to click a button. So they're not going to get those consumers back.

You're right, Justin. They're not going to get them back. Plus, you know, let's face it, even before COVID those businesses were declining a little bit because millennials like yourself.

Don'T.

Shop in brick and mortar very often. An exception might be like Target, because they mastered how to appeal to millennials. Almost nobody has done as well as they have done in accomplishing that, at least not in cpg.

You know, Target. Target really does a poor job in, you know, beauty, you know, health, beauty, cosmetic. Yeah, I mean, think about them in, in the typical, you know, personal care products and medicines and stuff, they're not that important in the, in the grand scheme of things, they're really more.

They replace Their drug business with having CPs in the stores now, right?

Yeah, they're really more of a fashion and home decor.

They are market.

Yeah.

But a lot of that's not going to change. So anyways, we'll get back to our topic here. So first off, David, when somebody's looking to sell their brand, these brands, they need to reach certain dollar amounts before they're interesting. So what's the dollar amounts that you look at when somebody's telling you they want to build a brand and I want to sell it, what's the magic number that they need to get to? And isn't there levels of these numbers?

Yeah, there certainly is nothing official about the number I'm going to give you. But just from experience, I think minimally, unless the brand's doing about 50,000, it's not going to get a lot of attention. I'm sorry, 50 million, it's not going to get a lot of attention. But I would say minimum, to get any attention at all, it's got to be doing around 25.

That's kind of the number I usually tell people and I kind of offset that with I look at a couple of things. One, is it at least doing 20 or 25 million and did it get there in three years or did it get there in 30 years?

Very good point.

Because if it got there in three years, if it went from 0 to 20 million in three years, that's growth. If it went from 30 million to 20 million over 20 years, that's decline. So I think there is an interest on the part of companies to buy brands that are on the way up and to look for brands that have some kind of IP too. Not just a me here, me too production.

Well, that was my other question too. Is, is there any caveats to these numbers based on IP? If they have this unique IP, does that almost say, okay, you're only doing 10, but this IP is worth x$, so maybe you should think about selling possibly.

Justin, you know, everything in this discussion, you know, has to do with other variables. But yeah, if the IP is really special, really unique, then a major company might look at it and say, here's an innovation that now we don't have to do the R and D, we don't have to invent, but with our clout and our money and our organization, we could take this $10 million IP in quickly, make it a 150 or $250 million brand. The large companies, I don't want to mention names, but there's a few a Handful of gigantic CPG companies. And that's the way they look at it. They normally don't buy anything that's doing less than 50 million because if it's not doing 50 million, it means it doesn't have a lot of ACV, all commodities volume, doesn't have a lot of distribution. And one of the main things that the super companies acquire with a brand is distribution that's already on the shelves because it's very expensive even for large companies to get distribution. If it's already out there, all they have to do is make sure initially it doesn't get discontinued and then grow it. So there's big companies and there's also, you know, investment groups that aren't, you know, they're not consumer product companies at all. They just own them. And they're more likely to buy a 10 million or an IP because they know that if they put a little money into it, they can sell it for a huge profit.

Right.

Maybe within two to three years.

You remind me of something Arnold Schwarzenegger once said to me one time. If you can't win Mr. America, seriously, if you can't win Mr. America without steroids, then you can't win Mr. Olympia with steroids.

Okay, okay, that's a great point.

So his whole point was if you can't get to this level first, then it doesn't matter what you do, you're not going to get to this level. David just brought that to mind for me because it sounds like if you want this brand to be viable to sell, if you can't get reasonable mass distribution first, then you're probably not, you're not a sale target. It's almost like that's the cost of entry, if I'm hearing you right.

Yeah. And it's expensive. Yeah.

So that makes sense.

So the idea that I've invented something and I've got $2 million in business on Amazon really doesn't mean much unless you've got some kind of breakthrough piece of technology. And now I'm buying the ip. I'm not even buying the business, I'm buying the ip. So, Dave, when we look at buyers, there are what we would call strategic buyers. So that would be a company that can, you know, that maybe is in the same space, can blend. There's these private equity buyers who, personally, I can make no sense out of most of the buys that they make. And they usually immediately buy the brand and destroy it. And you've seen it. And then you have, of course, the big multinationals that do the Buys, I'm assuming when you're saying the multinationals, that's where you're saying you need to. For P and G to look at you, you need to be 50 million bucks minimum.

Yeah, yeah.

And don't they get rid of brands that they have internally? That.

Yeah, they sure do. Yeah, they sure do. And there's companies that actually buy the brands they get rid of because they were P and G brands and at one point in time had a household name. And if that's what you have, if your company is that you've been around for a long, long time or you're just looking to buy an established name, sometimes you can buy those brands or sell those brands at pretty marketable prices because a lot of the questions have already been answered about the brand itself that are pretty well established. There's so many factors, but the first thing is you got to make sure that it's a good time to sell your brand. There is no perfect time. I don't even know that there's a definition of a right time, but there definitely is a good time to sell the brand. If you're an entrepreneur or a family business, I really recommend finding the right investment group or investment banker because let them do a third party valuation because candidly, your own valuation isn't going to be believed by potential buyers. Because it's your brand, you might have invented it, you've been really close to it, you know, you might be second or third generation, they know that. So once a third party, a reputable, credible third party gives your brand evaluation, it suddenly has a lot more credibility. I would also recommend only working with investment groups that have CPG consumer products experience. I've seen through so many cases where a brand gets a hold of an investment company that really doesn't understand CPG or they don't really understand retail, the causes and effects, and they really do have a tendency not to be as accurate with valuations. But there's a lot of good investment bankers and groups that are involved in cpg and those are the ones I would definitely go to because they know what to look for. If your brand has had a consistency of growth even for two years and you're a small brand, like 10 million or 20 million, if the last two years, I think, as Justin or Marcus you had pointed out, you know, starting to form a pretty good bell curve, that's a, that's a good time. That's one of the variables that makes it a good time. Your ebitda, of course, if you're selling your Whole company. If your brand is a company, you know, there's other factors to consider. One of be very frank here. Another reason to go through an investment banker is because of your emotional ties to your brand. You don't want to be the obstacle to the brand actually selling. Your emotion really can't be part of the selling because most entrepreneurs will repeatedly say, no, I'm just not going to sell it because the company buying it doesn't know what they're doing or they don't know what they're talking about or they're going to change it too much. So you've really got to let somebody else handle that. The value of your brand's not liquid until during the selling process. So that's another reason. And I think there really are two general buyers. One is the investment buyer and the other is the big mega company. When you're selling to a big mega company, there's a lot of benefits to that. Sometimes along with getting paid and you get paid quickly, you also get stock in their company. So there's a real benefit there. The benefit to selling out to an investment group or to another entrepreneur is that sometimes there's more discussion and flexibility.

How do you evaluate these companies? Now, is there any kind of formula as far as multiples of gross, multiple and net?

Yeah, you know, as far as selling price or valuation. If you know consumer products, you do look at what were the sales, factory sales this year, what were they last year? That's part of the formula. What do we think they're going to be next year based on credible information or credible predictions? What's the demand for the product? How you, how unique in the category is the product, or is it a me too? Distribution definitely has a lot to do with evaluation of a brand. I can't, I can't overstate how having distribution established at Walmart, Target, Kroger, Albertsons, some of the other major players, how valuable that is and how it adds to the value of your brand. That just means everything to an intelligent buyer. So those are all factors. And then of course, what kind of inventory are you sitting on right now? You know, what kind of velocity do you have? What type of ACV do you have? All those things are factors. It's like I can make a worksheet with probably about 10 or 12 of these most important variables. In order to make evaluation, the brand.

Has to be profitable or the bottom line. When I'm evaluating a CPG company, you.

Know, it depends on the buyer, but I'd say more top line.

So hitting that 20 million is probably more important than having the 2 million.

EBITDA for selling a brand? Yes. Top line. If you're selling your whole company, then it's bottom line.

Although for some brands, it is the whole company.

For a lot of brands, it's the whole company. A lot of times those are synonymous.

So is there a multiple that one would look at? I mean, I've seen three times gross. I've seen five times net. Seven times net.

What type of. I think three is the minimum.

That's a multiple of net or a multiple of gross.

Multiple of for a brand. Gross. And I'd say for a company, net sophisticated buyers, they also factor in what impact they have the resources to make on the brand that the existing owner probably doesn't have. And that goes a long way. And we use the example of Procter and Gamble earlier, you know, or Colgate or Johnson and Johnson or. Or Glexo or somebody like that. They know the impact that they will have with all their resources on a brand that's only doing 25 million right now. They know that they can do 250 million with that same brand in a pretty short period of time. So that's part of it as well, is what is their own, you know, factor? How does that come into the valuation?

Always keep in mind that there is always someone out there who thinks they're smarter than you.

Always.

Yeah.

So no matter how well you run the company, there's somebody out there who thinks they can make that company more successful than you can. And in some cases that's true, and in other cases it's not true. But take the money and run.

Exactly. Yeah, that's true. And, you know, if you get the right offer, that's where you have to put your emotion aside and say, hey, this is a great offer. That's what I was looking for. Take it.

I always tell people when they're talking about valuing your company is when an offer comes in, when you see an offer that you look at and say, I wouldn't pay that to buy my company, that means you need to take that offer. Otherwise, you did just buy your company for that amount of money.

Sure, Exactly.

Sure. Well, and you've mentioned it a few times here, David. We're talking a lot about the numbers and nuts and bolts here. But for an entrepreneur who built this place up, they have to do a real evaluation emotionally. Are they ready for that? What is the next stage of their life? You know, what is their passion? If they're not passionate about the business Anymore, that's a factor that says now it's time to really think about selling. But if your heart's still in this, and we've talked about it before with the factors of retirement and how it affects people's health and beyond, so you have to consider that when you're talking about this, even if you see that number, like you're saying, if the passion is still there and you say, absolutely, it's still worth this, then you keep going. But if not, it's time to move on to the next stage. And what is that?

Now there's a flip side to that passion, too. And the flip side is, and David and I have both witnessed this, there are times when an entrepreneur can take a company to a certain level and he gets there, and that's his glass ceiling. And if he stays with it and he stays at it, he will ride that company back down in value. So there does come a point when you look at that brand and you say, you know what it's worth the most money it's ever going to be worth under me right now?

Mm.

Know when it's now.

Right.

Right. Because. Yes. Just because Glaxo could buy this and make it bigger doesn't mean I can't.

Right.

Then it's fair.

Absolutely, it's fair.

David talked about all the resources that they have that you will never have.

Right. You need to be honest with yourself and say, this is. This is the farthest I'm going to get this, and this is the time to take the money.

Yeah. A big mega company will have a larger advertising budget than you probably have in total income for the brand.

Well, they have more lawyers than you have employees.

That they do.

You and I, a few years back, watched what was an actual, probably appropriate sale on a product.

Yeah.

On a company. And ego got in the way of it.

Nature did.

Because my brand's worth this. No, it's not. Your brand is not worth double what they're offering you.

Yeah. And you really cannot if you watch the show Shark Tank. One of my favorite discussions that they try to have with entrepreneurs. When entrepreneurs start with, well, I went through a lot of time and sweat and, you know, I had all these problems that I solved and I work 24 7, blah, blah, blah. And the sharks will try to tell them, I hate to tell you, it doesn't matter.

Right.

All that matters is the now.

Right.

Nobody's going to pay you for what you went through to get the brand to where it is today.

No.

They're only going to pay you for the results. But think about it. When you get a job someplace, is somebody paying you for all of the strife in your life or are they paying you for being able to do the job?

You don't want me to answer that today, right?

Can you do this job? I don't care if you had to go to school for six months or for 20 years. Maybe you're just slow. It took you that long to get here. I just care. Can you do this job right now? Which is the same thing with buying the brand, right?

What is it going to do for me?

So what is it worth? The last thing I'll leave people with. When you, when you're pricing your brands, here's things to look at. One is, what's the hard value of the brand? So do we have equipment? Do we have machinery? Do we have buildings? Do we have inventory? Yep, that's a hard value. Then we have what's the earning value of the brand? Okay, what did it do in gross? What did it do in net? And when you're looking at your net, you want to remember to add back in all the owner income back into that adjusted net. Because the new brand won't have an entrepreneur that's taking out his car and his second home and everything else, salary and his kids on the payroll or whatever he's got going on. You put all that back in to the net because it'll be there when you walk out the door. The third thing you have to look at in your price is, and this is the place where everybody gets screwed up. They can all figure out how much the building's worth. They can all figure out how much money it made. But it's. Now we get into the blue sky conversation, what is the future of this brand worth? And the future of the brand is going to be very dependent on what is the current trajectory of the brand. So if this thing is growing at, you know, 50% a quarter or even 50% a year, and it's on the way up, it has way more value than it's on the way down. The second thing is, does it have a unique IP that can't be quickly knocked off?

Yeah, exactly.

So do you have, do you have a secret formula? Do you have a trade secret? Do you have some celebrity name on your product that you can't steal? My celebrity, because my celebrity is part owner or something of that nature. What is it you have that people can't take away from you? So like if you look at a Kardashian or Jenner's Daughter.

Yeah.

Huge brand based on her name and her looks.

Right.

Whether the product's any good or not, you can't steal her.

Right, Right.

So that's going to have a big bearing in what the value of this company is.

But another point that I want to make because I've seen it done well and I've seen it done not well. When you're selling your brand, you need to keep working on it until the day that you sell it. Don't play a game and say, well, I'm going to cut all my advertising now and cut all my expenses so that the numbers look exactly right to get somebody to buy it, because you're going to really get more money for it and more buyers if it's hot at the time that you're selling it. So I would say if anything, turn on the juice more than ever. Turn on the advertising, turn on the marketing. So that it, David? Yeah.

I always tell people, run it like you will own it forever.

Yes.

Yeah.

Up until the day you toss your keys to somebody. Run it like you're going to run it forever.

Yep. Yeah. And first of all, who knows, if you don't sell it, you are going.

To run it forever.

You are going to run it, at least for some of forever. But yeah, don't cut back. That is such a, such a mistake. And I see companies do it all the time.

And it's like you and I have seen, seen this happen. They bring in a banker, they start sniffing around to see if anybody's interested, and they completely take their mind off of running the business. Their mind has just shifted to finding a buyer as the business is declining.

Absolutely. And in consumer products, if you lose distribution in the middle of trying to sell it, and that does happen, you know, you have to think about the timing, when's the category review for my product, and when will decisions be made, good or bad?

How does it affect the buyers when they hear the rumors that a brand's for sale?

Well, it depends who the rumors of who's going to buy it. But normally when they hear the rumor that a brand's for sale, it's not necessarily a good thing because they expect.

Support is going to be cut back.

Yes. They know that in a lot of cases, yeah, advertising is going to be cut back, marketing is going to be cut back. There might be less personnel behind the business. In our business, it makes a big difference to buyers who the sales representation is. They don't know if that's going to have consistency or not. What's going to happen in the future. And it's a big mystery because they don't know who will be taking over the brand and what will happen to the brand. But mostly they're worried about the short term is they've seen too many times where a brand trying to be sold, you know, just cuts off the juice. Right. And then guess what? Yeah. The churn starts going down. The retailer profit starts going down. Now I can find some other product to take the space of that product where I'm going to make more profit selling it, more volume. There's a lot of factors, but in cpg, there's factors that maybe don't apply to other types of brands like it does in this one. Know when the category reviews are coming, because you really have to know when news is going to come out that might be good or might be bad for the brand.

Competitors will use it against you.

They sure will, because they'll go in.

And say, well, you know, they're for sale right now. I mean, they're getting out, or whatever the case is.

Well, you and I know that if we're competing with a brand where we know that's the situation, you know, all is fair and love and war, we're gonna make sure that retailers know that. It's part of our job.

It makes the brand appear less stable.

Right, for sure.

So you want to keep that information to yourself. You want to try to not let it get out. And as David is saying, if you're going to put the place up for sale, time it after the reviews, after.

The review, when you can make the statement, this product's going to stay on the shelf, even better, it's going to get new distribution or it's going to get expanded shelf space. But in the real world, if you just heard that the product's going to be deleted and it's usually four or five months from the point of when you hear that, you've got to be honest and straightforward with potential buyers and let them know that. And you just rained on the parade. But you don't want that to happen. So you've got to be careful about those things. You have to have honest, transparent conversations with your own retail buyers and your brokers, your master brokers, and everybody's involved so that they can guide you on whether or not your brand is probably going to be retained or not retained, expand, good or bad news, because you have to know that.

Last thing I'll leave you with too, is when you're talking to bankers and brokers, as David said, find somebody who has track record and cpg. And be careful on the valuations because sometimes they'll throw a stupid valuation at you to get them to sign a contract with them. And they know they're not going to get you that money. But everybody else is telling you the place is worth 10 million, and these guys come along and say, I can get you 30. No, they're not going to get you 30 if everybody else is getting you 10. But they're going to get you to sign a contract, and then they're going to come back to you with a $10 million offer.

If the first success story that a potential investment group tells you about is a barbershop or a restaurant, you know, our rental car agency. That's not the right group. Yeah, that's not the right group because you're not selling.

As always, thanks for being with us. How can people follow you and follow. Get all your collective wisdom because you have different things on social media people can reach out to.

Right. Well, I. We keep our website updated with current news and views and information. And that simply is beernbaum.com b I e r n b a u m.com or consult davidb.com and we'll have links.

To this in the show notes. By the way, folks, okay, if you're driving, don't run off the road trying to write down Berenbaum.

There are a lot of tips on that website. A lot of tips about consumer products.

Oh, absolutely. You are a wealth of information. You also have a Facebook group, too, also, don't you? That people?

Yeah, there's two groups. There's Consumer Products and Retail Professionals, which is a LinkedIn group that now has about 100,000 members. Combination of buyers and by the way, people looking for businesses, looking for brands. All of it's global. Probably only about 35% of it is us. So you're also reaching a global audience, which is important when you're trying to sell a brand. And then we have a smaller group, which is more of a social consumer products group on Facebook, also called Consumer Goods and Retail Professionals. So join us. You'll love the conversations. They're surprisingly transparent. You learn a lot of tips from other people and learn about their experiences while they're in the business and also trying to sell the brand, you know, no matter what.

The CPG business is an exciting business.

It is.

It's great. It's. It's a great business. I. I've been in it. Boy, I hate to tell you my age. I've been in it 43 years. And, okay, we're talking to this old guy. Yeah, you are. But. But 43 years of it and I've never regretted one minute. It is the greatest, especially if you like marketing or advertising. This is the greatest business there is. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

And there's absolutely. I mean, how many times, you know, I've witnessed it. There's people that have a good idea that with a lot of hard work and some luck in a few years time, turn an inspirational idea into a small fortune.

I won't mention a name of a brand or a product. I certainly won't do that. But Mark and I have worked with brands that in just three years have grown from like around $5 million in factory sales to close to 55 million in factory sales in three or four years. There's formulas that work. Don't let anybody tell you there's not.

It is somewhat of a formulaic industry. I agree with you. It's probably almost like sports, almost like football. There are certain solid plays that you need to work the basics. You need to always focus on the fundamentals and do all the normal blocking and tackling.

Yep.

And hopefully you have a star player.

Yep.

Meaning One of your SKUs is pretty hot.

Yep.

And you can drive that thing, you know.

Absolutely.

Super Bowl.

Yeah.

And cash out.

And there's three NFL coaches that got fired yesterday, so they didn't know that.

I don't even think Detroit even has a coach, do we?

Don't.

I didn't think so.

We don't.

I think we're. Aren't we out shopping for Urban Meyer now?

Look, I am just shocked that you have talked about sports for at least two minutes. This is. I am blown away at the moment.

And I didn't make it about auto racing, right?

No.

That's the only sport they knew anything about.

You talked about sports and actually all of it made sense. So. Yeah. I'm bewildered at the moment.

See, I've been holding this back. I actually do understand some sports.

Justin, I've known Mark for, I don't know, probably 15, 20 years. And I didn't know that isn't his thing.

Yeah, I've never. I like auto racing.

Hey, look, I like it too.

She said. I was proud, that's all.

Yeah.

I like auto racing. It's just because I like driving fast.

Hey, you sure do.

I know. By the way, David, I'm going to, I might add, on my race circuit. So some people know that I actually am a race car driver. There's St. Louis. What is it Gateway Park? Yeah, I might. They might add Gateway park to my circuit this year. So I might be in St. Louis racing.

I hope so.

So, yeah, so maybe I'll make it down there and you can come to the racetrack.

Yeah. Convince NASCAR to have an event here.

Well, I don't do NASCAR racing. Cause I actually Road racing. So I actually turn the car left and right. Yeah. NASCAR always gets to me because it's like, bubba, what's coming up? I think it's a left turn. Yeah, I think there's another left turn after that one. So we like to do road racing. We like to do racing where the car goes in both directions.

I hear you. I hear you.

A little more challenging than going around in a circle. And I'm not taking anything away from the NASCAR guys because they're good drivers and.

No, Danica is a good friend of mine, so I liked nascar.

Yeah.

Yeah. NASCAR guys actually drive faster than road race guys?

Well, yeah, because they're just going.

Because they're on super speedways.

Right.

So we don't always hit the speeds they hit, but what we do is more difficult in some ways. But anyways, enough about that. Okay, so that's it for CPG Insiders. Next episode, we're going to bring the 2021 predictions in.

We sure are. It's gonna. That's gonna be good. That's gonna be a lot of fun.

There's a lot to cover there, but.

That'S where I'll be tuned in. Because this year, more than ever, is the biggest mystery of what the year's gonna be like of any year since I've been in the business.

Yeah.

Well, we're going to get the doctor's predictions.

Oh, boy. All right.

Oh, boy.

And it's true. I am a doctor, so you can trust me.

Oh, boy.

So at any rate, if you have any questions, you can reach out to David Berenbaum. You can always reach out to Justin and I. You can find us at Jekyll, Hyde labs.com or@cpp insiders.com.

Yep.

Either place, happy to help. And beerandbaum.com, go to the Show Notes. We'll have links to David's website and to his social media groups.

And nobody's asked me to say this, but if you're in cpg, there's one advertising agency to use. It's Jekyll and Hyde, period.

That is very kind of you to say that, David.

It's absolutely true.

David, thanks for being with us.

Thank you.

Next episode, if you're looking to greatly increase sales on your CPG product, don't hesitate to contact us at Jekyll and Hyde Advertising and by the way, the only advertising agency with a guaranteed result. Just go to jekyllheidagency.com or feel free to give us a call at 800-542 10.