Oral Systemic Health, the Larkin Protocol, and a Shift Toward Longevity with Dr. Thomas Larkin

Hi everybody.

I'm Dr. Sanda Moldovan, periodontist and nutritionist. Welcome to the Holistic Dentistry Podcast, the show that gives you the tips and tools to detoxify your mouth for a healthier body as we explore together the root cause of disease. Remember, you're not healthy until your mouth is healthy. So take care of it in the most Welcome to another episode on the Holistic Dentistry Show. I'm your host, Dr. Sanda, periodontist and nutritionist.

And with me today, I'm very excited to have a special guest from Lexington, Kentucky.

That's right, Dr. Thomas Larkin.

Dr. Larkin, welcome.

Good afternoon. Great to be here.

Nice to see you. And I'm excited to talk to you about oral systemic health.

Okay.

It's a passion of mine and it has been for many years, and I'm glad to see I can see that it's a passion of yours. So I want to get started with the beginning. How did you get really passionate about oral systemic health?

It was, it was at one of the earliest meetings of the AAOSH organization, American Academy of Oral Systemic Health. I think it was their 2nd or 3rd meeting. And I just happened to sign up and go out to Las Vegas and just kind of like, oh my gosh, this is like amazing, right?

Something we don't talk about.

Yeah, I know. I just, I just didn't know. And the person that really kind of drew me in personally was Dr. Bale of the Bale-Doneen Method and talking about cardiovascular stuff. And I was like, oh gosh. And then I've told in my lecture earlier how I became curious enough, curious enough to become a patient, curious enough to take their preceptorship. And then I knew that I could contribute to him because I knew the first time that I had seen about salivary diagnostic testing. And I knew that that was going to be a confusing conversation for general dentists. And I had used the microscope decades before, and I said, I can contribute to this conversation. And that was kind of the two things that happened.

I love it. And were you practicing at the time in Lexington?

I was at the university.

I was teaching. At the university? Okay. You were a professor there?

Yes.

Were you teaching general dentists or dental students?

Correct.

Okay. In what department?

I was in Removable prosth of all things. Yeah.

Okay.

Very hard.

It's very hard.

Yeah. No, it's really hard.

I admire people who can do good removable prosth. And did you refocus your practice at that point? Or how did you start incorporating oral systemic health? Because I know we have a lot of dentists that are listening to this podcast. And, you know, they go to a lot of courses. They don't really know. They go back to their practice and nothing changes. Correct.

Yeah. So what I saw the opportunity You know, I have some skills and gifts as a teacher, and one of them is— and the students love me because I take complex and make it simplified. And I, you know, I don't try to impress people with what I know with big words and whatever. I always kind of like simple stuff.

Perfect.

Yeah. And so I said, you know, I kind of need to create this path. Okay, what does this look like? And then I did— I left university and started doing startups, scratch starts. With students that I had taught, and one of them was a holistic practice.

Oh, I see.

And that's where everything kind of came together as a— and it's like, okay, here's a model, here's a template. And all of the ones that I did had a focus in hygiene. It was kind of a— I kind of threw that in kind of because it was a passion of mine. I knew that it worked, and I like working with young dentists and young hygienists because there's a lot of— it's difficult to start from scratch, right?

There's a lot of Yeah, a lot of protocols that they have to put together, training of their staff.

Right. So it's just been a progression. And then it got to 2020. I said, you know, I'm going to do my own training live event. And then I started doing this live event. And then that's when the whole world is kind of like, whoa, it got very cool.

Yeah.

Kind of like this event.

Yeah, I love it. And I love the shift in philosophy. So let's talk a little bit about that. You're going from traditional dentistry, like probing, Yeah. Right? To a more preventative, systemic-based approach.

Yeah. So one of the things that I talked about today, and it was kind of funny where I was talking about the periodontal probe and the why are we doing that? And I call it the notch metal stick kind of jokingly. But it's really— I'm trying to make a point. Okay. Is this the best that we can do since 1890? You know, and if we're really going to get involved in our patients' overall health, Which some people are not interested in. Some people are reactive dentists. They just want to do implants and fix things. So it's fix or prevent, you know, which one? And, you know, the preventive one is a little, it's a little nicer path. I find the people that find me are more purpose-driven. They're a little more grounded. They're, you know, dentistry, number one, from a stress standpoint, is just like, it's as stressful as anything there is to do. So you're going to have to balance a lot of things. But having purpose in your life, helping people, that's not everybody. I'm not, you know, I'm just saying. But I've got a nice tribe of people, purpose-driven people.

Yeah, I love that. Because we can really make a difference in someone's longevity and health. Not just how beautiful their teeth look.

No, that's the new conversation. So once again, I'm a student. I'm studying everything around me, studying the functional medicine doctors and what they're doing. And I'm changing, as you know, as we speak, because they're focused on longevity and healthspan, and the dentists haven't gotten involved in that. And I'm really kind of shifting towards that, because I think it's a better conversation. I think one of the first things we did with this oral systemic was try to scare people. Your gums are bleeding, you're going to have a heart attack. Well, people don't react to that. People just don't, you know, they're, they're People are complex, but what do people want? Okay. And I don't think there's anyone that doesn't want better health. Okay. Overall health. And I think everyone is discouraged. They know that our healthcare system is broken, probably not going to be fixed. I was, you know, I've talked about that. Our dental healthcare is kind of broken. The model is kind of broken. So they're discouraged and patients now, and I see that with, with Dr. Riley's holistic practice, they're, they're seeking, they're taking this into their own hands. So it's an organic movement.

Yes. How is the dental practice broken?

Well, it depends on what you choose. So, and once again, poor students who graduate today, you know, I'm not a big proponent of social media because it's a giant distraction. You have a lot of noise. Okay. So what do you do when you graduate? Well, I got to go work for corporate. I have to work for corporate. And then someday I'm going to do a startup or I'm going to buy somebody's practice. But they have so many conflicting messages, so many conflicting messages that they don't— they get away from who they are. Why did you want to become a dentist to start with? Okay, why? And so this whole concept of self-awareness, who you are, what motivates you, what makes you feel good, and then the money thing just goes— they get the big loan and then they get scared and then they start making decisions and stuff. And then it just turns into like a hamster wheel, right?

Mm-hmm.

I got to go make some money. Well, you better go start doing implants, you know, and then you just get so focused on restorative reactive care. And then there seems to be an unlimited amount of people that need implants. And, you know, it's a sad testimony on dentistry in general. The amount of disease today has not changed in 50 years. It's just, it's just awful.

Yeah.

And I hope that Facebook is not representative of it. I'm afraid it is. I've been to a couple of Facebook groups of, and I hate patients advising. I hate those groups the most. But you know, 50,000 people in an implant group going, what are you doing? And I was like, oh my gosh, are there really that many desperate people out there? And I think there are.

I think there are. And you know, one thing I've learned after practicing for 20 years plus is that if we do what we love, money comes.

Right. Oh, and that's, yeah, I try to. So, so when someone comes to me and the first question is, hey, Dr. Clark, I hear you do this, that, and the other. What's the ROI? Wrong question.

Yes.

You know what I'm saying? So if you're not asking me, how can I give better care? Because, you know, and I know this is kind of old-fashioned, but just the money follows. You just take good care of people and things take care of themselves. You know, that's, you know, that's, that's an old principle that goes back, you know, 100 years.

And I've known that to be true.

It is true. So when I see misery, when I see young people, and I hate it. I hate people now that are quitting. You know, there are people quitting after 5 years, 10 years. And I'm, you know, and I see it on social. Maybe people have always quit, but you don't know it because it's not on TikTok or they're saying how dentistry is terrible. You know, maybe you see it more now.

Yes.

But it's supremely sad because it's such a huge investment in time. And one of the things I always say, To me, I consider it a privilege to be a dentist. It's when you're a physician or a dentist and you can place your hands on another individual in a healing manner, that's a privilege. That's a God-given privilege, okay? Because if I put my hands on you without permission, that's assault. But if I put my hands on you in a healing manner, it's a gift. And they're just kind of throwing that away and they've lost that perspective. You know, you went to 8 years of freaking school and all you're doing is complaining about this, that, and the other. And you know, Yeah, and I can't solve that problem, but I, you know, I just know that the people in my world are, they're kind of cool. You know, they're kind of like, they kind of have figured it out. And, you know, yeah, I just, I can't, I can't brag enough about the people that I've encountered in this whole movement.

I love it. Yeah. Let's talk about the Larkin Protocol.

Yeah, so I was talking about that in the lecture and that it just kind of evolved as far as like, You know, people will ask me, you know, Dr. Tharkar, I know you're very hygiene-centric. What's the sequence? What's the sequence?

Yes.

And so about 10 years ago, I was just, you know, I'm kind of a creative guy. I'm really dangerous when I have downtime, like when I'm on vacation or something, I have time to— and you're probably the same way. We don't have much time to think.

Yes.

But when I do have time to think, it's super creative.

Yes.

And I was like, okay, here it is. It's, it's test, teach, treat, repeat. And that's it. We're going to biologically test people. We're going to teach them what this all means. Take the time. We have to go slow to do it. Go slower. Test, teach, and then treatment. And the treatment part has just evolved in the last 3 or 4 years because of all the people I've been blessed to come to my meeting and, you know, learn about air polishing and all these different things, ozone and different stuff. So that— and then the repeat is—

Recare.

And that's personalized care, meaning everybody's different. Everybody has a different treatment plan when they come back.

So let's say a patient that comes in for a hygiene visit, how do you apply the Larkin protocol? Do you start salivary testing first?

Yeah, so it's so so the easiest, the easiest, and I have a kind of a sequence there. The easiest is the microscope because you don't have to charge for it, and it's the most emotionally impactful. Okay, when people see bugs on the screen, the vast majority of people freak out. And once again, I'm not doing this so much on a scientific basis, but it's a behavioral. You know, how do we get people's attention? Okay, it gets people's. People are different, but it consistently motivates people because they say, "I didn't know that the film on my teeth was alive." Yeah, see those little bugs? That's alive. That's a big moment for them because they come in wanting a cleaning, knowing one thing: that their teeth will feel smooth when they leave. That's their entire deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now we're changing that and saying, no, you know, I'm seeing some stuff there that concerns me. And once again, you know, I'm very cautious in what I say. Scaring people is not a good— it's not a good thing. Teaching people is a good thing. Okay.

So do you pick the plaque like off the teeth or close to them?

Yeah, it's subgingival. It's a subgingival sample. The depth of the pocket, it can be anywhere. Generally, if you go like the distal of a second molar, somewhere that's kind of hard to clean, you know you're going to get something. Thing, especially if somebody's really good. And then put it on a slide. It's a minute and a half. Just slide it. Big screen. It's all camera. I was telling somebody earlier, this microscope configuration is my custom configuration, and I did some things intentionally. I took off the eyepieces because the eyepieces are intimidating, and I'm trying to train as many people as possible. And I remember histology class in dental school, and I freaking hated it. I'm looking, I go, I have no idea what it is I'm looking at, you know. And then you have an exam where you're going from— oh my gosh, right? So I go— so I told the guy, um, Miller Precision Optical, they were such a blessing to me because they let me make a custom configuration. I said, can you take those off? Just leave a camera and just put it on the screen. I just want to look at the screen.

Yeah.

And they did. So they've kind of created a custom configuration for me and brought the cost down. It's Everything, everything that needed to happen happened.

Amazing. Do you also do any other, like, oral DNA testing? Right.

So, the newer test is the Oral Fitness Test, and they've been new as to the past year. And once again, I spend, I spend time with people that are new to my world because, first off, I need to absorb it just kind of viscerally. Like, when something comes new to you, you have to go, okay, where does this fit? Does this make sense? And I hesitated a little bit. I love point of care. Okay, point of care is everything to me, meaning I go home with the results. I think that's going to revolutionize. And at my meeting next year, I'm going to be showing point-of-care pathogen testing. Okay.

I love that.

And then, and then now we're coming home with everything. Okay. Because mailing out tests is— there's a, there's a point of disconnect with there, whether it's a Zoom meeting, or you got to come back. I didn't get the email. What's the login? You know, it's the whole stuff, right? And I don't like it. So Point of care got my attention, and then as I met Dr. Lazara, I physically went to Florida to meet them. Okay, I you know we had Zoom meetings, but I said I gotta go meet you. And Dr. Lazara is like an icon in dentistry. You know he's been around in the implant world and everything, and we we kind of hit it off. And then I understood that this is a quantitative measurement with a number, and we're talking about collagen. And I love, love, love. The collagen conversation, because women are the primary decision-makers in healthcare for their family, for themselves, and for their spouse. And they understand the word collagen. And you say collagen, and they think skincare.

That's right.

And so, I'm not saying, well, we're going to do an oral DNA. We're going to say, hey, I'm going to take a collagen test. And they're going to, what? And go, yeah, we have a collagen test in the mouth that shows in the collagen around your tooth, which holds your tooth in, is it breaking down or is it healthy? It's a simple test. I'll have the results in five minutes. They go, yeah, super. Let's do it. Right?

And it's relatively inexpensive.

Yes. Yeah. So it's an introductory. It's an you know. So once again, I'm I'm concerned of any barrier to conversations. You know, cost is a barrier. Complexity is a barrier. Mailing out a test is a barrier. So can we break those barriers down? Okay. So now we have a number. Now we have a super simple explanation. The word collagen, and then. And then here's your result. And then, okay, it's normal, low, or high. And then, okay, where do we go from there? Right?

And yeah, good point. Where do you go from here? Because there's some people that were really high scores and very little plaque, right? There's people with a lot of plaque with low scores.

So I'm gonna look at the microscope too, because I showed it in my presentation. You know, sometimes plaque is not, you know, that'll trick you.

It's not an indication.

It's not, it's not an indication at all. So I want to see consistency, meaning, so if I see dysbiosis with the microscope, high score, now I'm going to go straight to the health history.

Okay.

Hey, Mrs. Smith, you know, we're looking at the bacteria in your mouth. We're looking at your microbiome. Collagen score is a little high. Concerns me. I see some bugs here. You, in your health history, you have a family history of dementia. There's diabetes and things. We need to do a more advanced test. We need to look at the actual pathogens, the bacteria. So it's a progression. See, and so what I knew in 2012, When I went to that AASH meeting and they were talking about pathogen testing, I knew— I don't want to say this— I knew it was not going to be successful because they were just kind of starting from scratch and like jumping into a $200 out-of-pocket test to someone that doesn't know left from right, you know. And so you see my progression. I'm always thinking about what's a natural progression. This is a natural progression. And when you have a natural progression, you're going to get least resistance. Person say, yeah, go ahead. You know, yeah, 100%. So health history, massively important, comprehensive. I'm always playing off of the health history because that's, you know, that's your lifespan, healthspan. Your mother had this, your dad had this. You know, it's in your best interest to really kind of get some baselines. And then I talk, I talk to them about the concept of, you know, longitudinal, meaning over time, every time you come in, we're going to do this. We're going to do this, is so that they know that you're following them. Just like you get your blood pressure checked by your physician, get your cholesterol checked, and you're doing something. So what this does to the dentist, it immediately separates them out. Because all the dentists are concerned about new patients and retaining patients with her. Who's going to leave your dental practice if you're giving this quality of care?

Absolutely. Do you ever get patients that come back and say, My diabetes got better.

100%. Yeah. And, and so one of the things is, it's almost a continual goal of mine, is a closer collaboration between medical and dentist— dentistry on information exchange. And I mentioned that I was working with one of the AI companies. What I would, what I would love to have, because I know, I know what I want to see, but I don't have the technical ability. And hopefully somebody can help me someday. Physician has a patient, He does, he does a login and all of the data that he needs, you know, A1C cholesterol is in this column. But when he logs in, he's going to see all the things that you did. Okay. All right. And then there will be like, you know, the, the yellow, green, red, or whatever, the things that are— that you're working on. And then I can simultaneously look at the things that, that the physician side is working on. That's a, that's a collaboration.

That's powerful.

Yeah, it's super powerful. But what are those things? Okay, and that's what I've—I've kind of already storyboarded it. I mean, I know what I need it to look like. So what I did was I went to AI, and I said, "What are the at age fifty? What are the top ten health concerns in order?" Okay, well, number one's cardiovascular. That that was pretty simple. But when I went through the ten, seven out of the ten had an oral component. Not not all equal, right? Cardiovascular is probably like number one. Cardiovascular diabetes and dementia. You know, those are those are pretty easily connected. But there are some peripheral pancreatic cancer, rheumatoid arthritis. You know, there's some peripheral stuff. Okay, if I have arthritis, I want to know PG. You know, you better test for PG, right? So so we start looking at that. And so I I just want to get this. I just want to get this interface. You know, built where and once again, all of these things, these are. Areas where AI is going to change healthcare because it's going to be faster and more efficient. And like I said in my presentation, so what do we do with this newfound time that we have? Well, what we're going to do is we're going to work on relationships.

I love that because community is so important. That's community with our patients, community within dentistry. I believe that with this relationship.

So our primary care doc who's got 8 minutes by the clock, right? That's their world that they live in. They see a jillion patients a day. The DSO practice where the hygienist is seeing somebody every 30 to 45 minutes, they're quitting, they're burned out, they hate. You know, it's just, it's just nonsensical. It doesn't make sense. So the patient knows better. The patient in the, in the Jiffy Lube lane, they know better, but they don't have an alternative. They're choosing and they're looking. Absolutely. Yeah.

So after the testing, do you do airflow ozone therapy?

Right. So then, so then the part of the sequence is testing and then disclosing. I love, I love disclosing because air polishing is the guide. Okay, so we disclose, and that's an educational moment. So I'm constantly looking at how do we teach the patient. Okay. And disclosing is a great teaching tool. You know, you see that stuff there, you're missing that. That's, that's those germs up on the screen. Oh, okay. And then, and I love air polishing is a lovely procedure. And then underlying everything, including the irrigant in the irrigation, I mean, with the airflow, is the ozonated water. I think ozone is just massively underutilized.

Yeah, I love ozone, and I do want to talk about that. But I want to go back to the disclosing because we have some consumers listening, they have no idea what disclosing is. Just explain that a little bit so people know what we're talking about.

So it's a dye. And I will say, in Dr. Rylie's practice, There are some patients that don't want it because there's a dye in there. I don't have an alternative for that. So what happens is when you have what we call biofilm, which is the bacterial film on your teeth, you brushed, you flossed, and you missed, and you paint it on there and it turns purple if it's old, it's been there a while, pink if it's newer, and then they have a tricolor, which is teal colored, which is the bacteria that causes tooth decay. You can see that. So it's 3 colors. Okay, so it's a color indicator, right? So I haven't come up with a solution for the person that's like, you know, because because you know there there are some there are some holistic people that are super hardcore.

Yeah, but the dye doesn't exactly get absorbed in the cells; it just sits at the surface.

And then that that automatically brings me to the conversation of SDF. Okay, silver diamide fluoride, which you know which is a which has a place. You know it's an interesting. Once again, we're all talking about tools, and it's like, oh, it has the word fluoride. Like, oh no, you know, it's like, yeah. So I struggle with that, as I'm sure you do. I don't have, I don't have all the answers, but those are kind of little things that have come up. But once again, there's a thing, there's a thing that's called disproportionate focus, and it's when we worry too much about something that isn't significant. So if you want to be a, you know, a worry Nelly and worry about everything in the freaking world, Okay, you can be that person, but I'm I'm not that person.

Yeah, and I do think disclosing is important because plaque is not just on teeth. That's the thing. It's actually on. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. On the tongue. It's everywhere. Yeah. Yeah, and that's one of the things I love about airflow. Now it's just with erythritol. Is glycine still available? Yes, it is available. Okay, do you prefer glycine? I've seen enough research.

I think. Erythritol has a medicinal— I've seen research that it's medicinal in addition to being a low particle size, 14 microns. And obviously the lower is better, right? So it's more gentle. I think there's some medicinal purpose with that.

Yeah, it has antibacterial properties, which is great.

Correct. So I'd put these in gums, right? So if I had a choice, you know, that's the one.

Yeah, I like the glycine as a periodontist. I like to use it like peri-implant defects or subgingival where it actually stayed and had an anti-inflammatory effect.

Right.

But I think the cleaning with erythritol is much more effective.

Right.

Black.

I agree.

And you love to use ozone.

Yes. Yeah, I just think it's this— I call it— I use the word holistic. It's a natural antibacterial, antifungus, anti-everything. Okay. So let me tell you, I haven't told this story. You're going to get the privilege of an anecdotal story. So a week before I'm to come here, I get into some poison ivy outside in the garden, you know. I mean, and I mean, and I mean, like, major. Like, I'm, I'm, I know better than to do that. And I'm like in a panic. And so I, and I, I jumped from not going to Walgreens and getting cortisone. I went right to Dermatosa. I need a script. So she sends me over the script of the prescription strength, and I put it on my legs, and my legs are on fire. And I just happened to look at my desk, and my ozone tumbler is on the desk. So I immediately, immediately wiped it off, took the ozone spray, put it on the poison ivy, and it was the most soothing. It stopped itching instantly, and it was cooling.

Wow.

So I'm like, okay, I get it. And I was spraying on their day, you know, it was like 2 or 3 days, 6, 10 times a day. It was gone.

That's amazing.

You know, all that stuff's anecdotal. But I, but I, the minute I thought about that is because I've seen some stuff with MRSA, you know, when BioSure showed, and, you know, it's like, we're talking about some of the most nasty, serious infections that there are. And, and it's— so the bad news is, and I hope I'm correct in this understanding, so BioSure is going through FDA process. They're going to get FDA clearance for use in water lines. Okay. And then at that point, it will be the standard for water lines in the office. No biofilm at all.

We actually tested our water lines because we use ozonated water and they were pristine. Yeah. With ozone.

Yeah. I have a I have a slide that I that I showed them, and this was an office which was an older office which was an acquisition, and I was helping with that. And you know, I used ozone water top to bottom. And when the hygienist sends me a picture, she's like in an absolute panic. She was cleaning a vacuum line, vacuum side line, and she pulled out this thing. She didn't know what it was. It was like a it was like a snake that had shed a skin, and I mean it was long and it was it was. It was like 2 feet long, nasty. And I said, you know what that was? That was a water line that over 20 or 30 years had had every chemical on earth put through it, but it would build a biofilm. And what the ozonated water did over a period— it wasn't instantly, it was over several months— broke it down. And now the inside of that tube was pristine.

Wow. That's a good story.

That's a heck of a story.

So do you Recommend to use ozone water or ozone gas or the ozone water?

So, I'm not trained in gas. And, and like I said, I have nothing against it, but, but as you can tell by talking to me, I'm trying to affect as many people as I can. So, so what happened was during the COVID period, I looked online and I saw that gas and water, as far as training went, was, was kind of joined together. And I go, you know, I wish it wasn't because water is super simple. And gas is gas. You need training. Okay. And I wish it wasn't. So when when BioSure became available, it's like great. I'm going to focus on the water. But I know plenty of people that use the gas very effectively through a host of you know mechanisms: carries disinfection and perio with trays and everything. It's just you know it's just yeah it works.

And if we look at the studies on water, it's actually very effective also when compared to gas. Yeah. So, and then you talked about lasers as well as part of the Larkin protocol, right? How do you use the laser?

So, so I'm talking about diode laser in hygiene, you know, so, you know, the big boy lasers is kind of a different subject. But through the course of time, I've had to get someone who trains in it, found a really great laser. Dr. Jim King has a laser called the Beamer 980. And the reason I landed on that laser is I was having an office trained, and I hired a trainer from the American Academy of Laser Dentistry. And she came and she had that laser, and it's kind of an industrial thing. It's not pretty at all, right? And you've seen some of the pretty ones, the sheet of glass, whatever. And I said, tell me why you're training with this. And she said, because it's the only thing I could put in carry-on luggage and fly all over the country. I said, done. That's the one I want. Because, because in an office, you know, it's going to be jostled, moved, and Dropped on the floor. You drop one of those little glass plate ones on the floor and sayonara, right?

You're out thousands of dollars.

This is industrial strength and it doesn't have a bunch of presets. You know, I think, I think when you get into too many presets, it's kind of a crutch. I mean, you don't really understand wattage and all that good stuff because you're just pushing. I'm doing this, right? And it does some, you know, presets have some advantages and But it's just a basic dye laser.

Yeah, and I love that you're keeping things simple.

Yeah, that's no. And like I said, I'm just a practical person, and I try to I try to navigate to what is a practical something, right? I definitely would never complicate anybody's workflow.

Okay, so the patient has the airflow, they have the ozone, the lasers, and what happens?

Okay, so now we're talking about— and then the last part is what we're going to talk about, supportive care, right? So what can we do at home? Probiotics, prebiotics. That's a conversation that I think needs to be had because, you know, you've gone through this whole process. And the whole thing with dysbiosis is, you know, you're, you're kind of pushing things back and then they're going to come back. But hopefully the pathogens are— less pathogens come back, more commensals, you know. And it's, it's a pretty straightforward process. I know one of the things that I've seen in social media the last few years, which I hate, hate, hate, is I'll see like a— this will be a functional medicine person— don't use mouthwash, you know, because you're getting nitric oxide. And I go, crap, that's just really bad advice. That's a bad social media look, right? Don't use mouthwash.

Does mouthwash affect nitric oxide?

And, you know, in my understanding, it's more nasal and, you know, whatever. But, and once again, they're selling nitric oxide supplements. And, that's a whole nother conversation that— and, as you know, because you're on the same journey that I am, you have to process this. You have to figure out what's real and what's not and what you're going to deploy. Are you going to recommend a nitric oxide supplement or say don't use a mouth rinse? Because— and, I'm going back a long time, I'm irrigating at home with diluted bleach. Okay. And, I don't recommend that for patients. I'm fine myself.

Right.

And that, that's strong. It is strong. And that's what we started with. You can't use it anymore. It was called chloramine T. And that's what Dr. Keyes taught us about chloramine T. It's, it's worse than, it's worse than chlorine. And we use it. It tasted terrible. It was, it was awful.

It's got to be acidic.

Yeah. And it worked, you know, and it worked. But so this whole concept of pushing back, or you're just kind of nuking stuff, and then it, you know, it does, it does rebound. There is a rebound after that, right? So what— and you just made me think of something that I want to talk about, and it keeps coming up consistently, and that's antibiotic usage. Okay. So, and, and as you know, I'm going to express personal opinions. This may be, you know, evidence-based opinion or, you know, popular opinion, but I have a perspective on it. One of the mistakes that the testing companies did from the beginning, from the very beginning, and I'm not singling anyone out, But they would say they would give you a test, and then they would give you an antibiotic recommendation. Okay, I've seen that on the dentist thing. Now I'm a novice dentist who's just saying, "What's this oral systemic?" Well, I'm just going to go do a test. Okay, I mean they have no knowledge, right? And they're used to following instructions. Dentists like to be told what to do. They know they're kind of engineers that are do this, this, this. So they get the test back, and it's like metronidazole and amoxicillin. I'm going metronidazole. That's. You know, so that's inconsistent. A functional medicine doctor will say that's kind of— do you realize how the long-term effect— is it justified to use metronidazole in just like any garden variety periodontal disease? Well, if you go by the testing company, this is their protocol. And so I have— I hate to say this word, but I call it kind of cheating. Meaning, is it going to work? Hell yes, it's going to work.

Temporarily.

Yeah, temporarily. But did you do too much? Okay, so here's here's my spin, and it's been that way from the first day. I am going to do everything progressively conservatively, and then I'm only going to throw the kitchen sink here when it's indicated. And if I'm not making any progress, and this just is things are not fitting, you know, Mrs. Smith, we've done everything conservative. We're doing irrigation, and da da da da da da. You know, we may need a course of antibiotics.

Yeah, I agree with you on this. I see it on every oral DNA test panel, and I've never used it.

Right.

Because we can use other things like ozone and airflow and probiotic care for post.

And the majority of people are going to do just fine with that.

Yes, that's what I'm seeing as well.

So, and as we learn more about the gut, and that's why I kept saying is, I look at what functional medicine has progressed in the last 10 or 15 years. And it's gut, gut, gut, gut, gut. And I'm like, you know what a course of metronidazole does? You know, you're talking about 6 months after effect. Okay. It's, you're just going, you're going to the nuclear weapon right off the bat. So, and once again, though, that's training and information. So they got a rapport and they did. So, so you mentioned oral DNA. So I will tell you this because I know the hygienist who did this. So Pacific Dental is, was at the time, I don't know if they are now. The largest customer of Oral DNA, and their head hygienist, her name was Jan LeBeau. And Jan was a great person. I did a microscope project with them. And but anyway, Jan made them change the wordage to say antibiotics or laser therapy. I love that. They had to put or in there. That was that was. But the newer tests, they're still doing it. The new tests, and I'm not going to mention tests, but they're still.

And I think that's the problem with the testing. Some of the testing out there, dentists don't know what to do with it.

No, it is so confusing. And it's the, it's the number, it's the number one thing, you know, when I, when I give my whole spiel about how we're going to change your practice wellness-based, it's the number one recurring issue is the bacterial testing. Yeah. And what does it mean? And so one of the things that I've learned too, I've learned this from the physician side, Is the concept of trending. Okay, so now, and you'll, you'll get this immediately. So, so I'm a dentist and I do my first test and I nuke it with the metronidazole and it goes from here to zero.

Okay.

This is great job, right? You know, and then you get the rebound and then it's like, oh, what, what happened here? So what my being in the Bale-Doneen— when I first became a patient and we're looking at a whole host Of cardiovascular markers, cholesterol. You know, there's a lot of markers in that panel. I learned about trending. Okay. So no, you're not, you know, and to be in Bale-Doneen by the book, you get your blood drawn every 3 months, which is a lot. I mean, that's quarterly labs. And what I learned was, as long as we're trending in a direction and not going this way, just chill out. And that's not the dentist mentality. The dentist wants to fix it. Tomorrow. They want— they just like everything else because we, you know, generally speaking, when we do a restoration, we fix it. It's done. Yeah, but health is a journey.

Yes. And we go through ups and downs, different challenges, environments, and we just have to go with it.

Yeah. So the trend is important. Longitudinal data, you know, and just having the peace of mind to know that I'm under the care of a dentist or a physician who's just tracking my trend and, you know, hey, Tom, You know what's going on here, and then now you intervene, right?

I agree with you.

This is not rocket science. This is it's so common sense to me. I know that, but you know how complicated a topic this is.

Common sense is not common. It's not. Very good, Dr. Larkin. Where can people find you on social media website? So powhygiene.com.

It's probably primarily, so that's proactive oral wellness. Pow hygiene, pow hygiene dot com is where you know kind of like the services. One of the things that I'm launching in November, and this is I'm most excited about, is a community. I want I want to get a non Facebook. Facebook is is complicated. Yeah, there's circle. Yeah. So it's a circle community. It's called Longevity Dental Institute. And so, and I'm going to get a collection of. So my faculty are going to be in there for my meeting, and then people can come in and lurk, and you know just have some. Ongoing connectivity. And, and I think, you know, yeah, that's what—

I love it that you called it longevity because the mouth is a big component of longevity.

Well, I just recently changed it. And I changed it on the advice of someone very smart. And it was the dental CEO. And let me just, let me mention this just for a minute. Yeah. This is like a month ago. I'm getting ready to launch the Oral Systemic Mastery Institute. And, you know, and I'm getting ready to launch. It's like, I'm not asking for advice. Don't ask me to change it. And he goes, Tom, he said, I think the oral systemic word is kind of worn out. And I instantly looked at him. I go, you're right. It's worn out. It is worn out. It has gone as far as it's going to go. He goes, we're really focusing on longevity and healthspan. I said, done. I went to AI, made a new logo, changed the name. And I, and the next day I had the name changed. I mean, he was, he was like in shock. I said, well, I don't normally, I don't normally accept advice. that easily, especially for my wife. You know, you're not gonna— you're not gonna— you're not gonna get that response like instantaneously. I'm gonna— I'm gonna push back and I'm gonna fight you a little bit. But, uh, I was like, it was just like, you're— you're 100% correct. So what I want to do now, and I'm— I'm presenting at the Bael Doneen Preceptorship in November, and I'm going to change— I'm gonna— I'm gonna have an influence on them. I'm gonna say, let's— let's start talking about, you know, because the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome. And so I think, I think some of this oral systemic movement has stalled. And let's go look at what the functional medicine people because they're not stalled; they're going to the moon. Okay. And they're talking; they're using a different language than we are. Longevity. Longevity and healthspan. So health optimization.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. We're going to put all this information down below in the show notes. And if you know of anyone out there who could benefit from this show, please share it with them. Uh, thank you, Dr. Park, for being here.

Yeah, thank you. You're a great interviewer.

Thank you, thank you. I had a lot of fun interviewing you, for sure.

So until next time, keep smiling. Thank you so much for joining me this week. Please make sure you check out the show notes for any links mentioned in the show. If you like today's show, please invite your friends to listen as well. That would mean a lot to me. Do you have a question you'd like me to answer? Message me on Instagram @DrSanda. This is Dr. Sanda, and remember, your mouth is the gateway to your health, so take care of it in the most natural and best way possible.