The Nutritional Power of Organ Meats

Hi everybody, I'm Dr. Sanda Moldovan, periodontist and nutritionist. Welcome to the Holistic Dentistry Podcast, the show that gives you the tips and tools to detoxify your mouth for a healthier body as we explore together the root cause of disease. Remember, you're not healthy until your mouth is healthy, so take care of it in the most natural way. Hi everyone, welcome to today's show on the Holistic Dentistry Podcast. I'm so excited to be talking about organ meats today. I know maybe some of you are not so excited about organ meats, but I am because I am Romanian and I grew up with organ meats. We were eating organ meats as a young child. And with me today, I have an amazing guest, James Barry. He has 20 years in the culinary field, started as a private chef cooking for celebrities such as Tom Cruise, George Clooney, Gerard Butler, and so many more. Written a few cookbooks like Eat Naked, Clean Seven, The Naked Foods Cookbook. And also you have your own podcast, Everyday Ancestral, if you wanna find more about organ meats. Thank you so much, James, for being with us today.

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Or should I say Chef Barry, actually?

Oh no, it's all good.

I'm excited to talk to you about this because in dentistry, being the Holistic Dentistry Show, organ meats are so important. And I do talk to my patients about the importance of organ meats. Studies with Weston Price back in the '20s and '30s have shown that children who eat organ meats actually have healthier teeth and healthier jawbones. So I'm excited to talk about your passion with organ meats. Like, how did it all start.

Yeah. It's really fascinating by the way, cuz you mentioned, you know, you didn't grow up in the US and it's like most countries eat organ meats. They eat the nose to tail. I mean, if you think about it, never really in the history of humanity would we kill an animal and not eat the whole animal. You know what I mean? Like really it wasn't until like the '40s on that, that people started being more selective around the cuts and the parts of the animal. But before then, no one could afford not to eat the whole animal because if you slaughtered an animal, first of all, in the early 1900s and before, there was no refrigeration. So yeah, you had to preserve the animal. So a lot of canning and/or salting and/or storage in some way, but they also did not waste it. And usually the organs were the first to be eaten because they don't store very well. If you don't have a freezer, for example. Yeah.

So it's a lot of work, you know, actually being a whole animal. I remember my grandparents, you know, we'd had pigs and we would slaughter one right before the holidays. And we're just about around this time, November, beginning of December. And it was like a labor-intensive thing. And I remember watching this and just helping out, but you're absolutely right. We were using everything. Everything.

It's very luxurious to say I'm going to slaughter an animal, but only eat the ribeye. You know, it's like, it's very luxurious. But you know, it is interesting because here in the US we don't practice eating as much nose to tail and we're kind of suffering for it. There was a 2015 study done. It said 93% of Americans in 2015 were nutrient deficient. My assumption is that that's now closer to 95 or 96. And it's got to be— it could even be higher. But the issue, while we're nutrient deficient, we are not calorie deficient. And that's a very important distinction because it's not an issue of we're not getting enough food. It's clear that we're not getting the right foods. And it's fascinating to me because despite best efforts, everyone is trying to eat nutrient-dense foods. They think they're into— they're eating nutrient-dense foods. They think that if they eat vegetables, they're nutrient-dense. So even if they're frozen, they're even more nutrient-dense. But yet this is still not the case. We're dealing with agricultural systems that are broken. We're dealing with depleted topsoils that don't create nutrient-dense foods anymore. And they've been tracking this since the late 1950s in the US. They are literally tracking the nutrient load of the produce, and every decade it's lower and lower and lower. So the tomato of 1950s is not the tomato of 2024 or 25, you know, since we're now indigenous tribes, but it's, it's just, it's sad to me because I believe everyone is doing the best they can, but it's just not enough anymore. And we have to look towards the foods that are nutrient-dense. And while a lot of people are supplementing, they're trying to take capsules. I truly believe that we are not designed to eat as many capsules as we are. And I've heard horror stories and I don't know if they're fully true, but I have heard stories that there are cadavers that are being found now that have undigested capsules in them because of how many capsules people are swallowing.

That's scary, James. And I, I know what you mean because it is when you look at the capsule, right? It's got that outer layer. And a lot of times I look, it's like, what is it really made of? And is it digestible? I don't think we have any studies on that. If that's cellulose layer on the outside, it's supposed to be gelatin, right?

But the question is, is, is how in integrity are all these capsule companies? I have to imagine some of 'em do have plastics in them. And to your point, are they fully getting digested? Stress lowers hydrochloric acid, which is what supports, you know, the breakdown of all the foods in your stomach. And most of us have very low hydrochloric acid. That's why there's so much— so many people eating like Tums or antacids because they have acid reflux. And that's because they're not properly digesting the food they're eating with the, you know, having enough hydrochloric acid. So there is a deeper issue of stress, there's a deeper issue of modern lifestyle impeding upon our health. And so I do believe that it's integral that we really do focus on these foundations, you know, and they're very ancestral foundations, you know, the foundation of nutrient-dense food. So the food you eat, the foundation of movement, the foundation of sleep, and then of course keeping a lower stress state. Now, this is, this is what's very fascinating though, is that if you think about it, we are in a Homo sapiens body, right? This body was developed, you know what, 300,000 years ago, something around there. And if you think about it, the foods we're currently eating are what, 70 years, 80 years old.

And some of them even like ultra-processed foods, even less than that.

Yeah. Right. So, so if you think about it, we are in a body that's 300,000— that was developed, the communication pathway was developed, the, the nutritional needs were all developed close to 300,000 years ago. But the foods we're eating that are very foreign to this body are within the last 100 years or so. So it goes to show you that if you are predominantly eating processed foods or ultra-processed foods, then you are out of congruence with this very ancient biological body. And for my money, that's why we can't— we have to focus on these foundational foods, these very, what I call, very basic kind of foods where the food has flavors that are found in nature. So not natural flavors, but food— foods that have flavors that are found in nature, foods that are nutrient-dense. And then the third part is we just have to mindfully eat those. So we have to not be in a stress state. We have to be in a state of taking a breath before we eat. We have to be in a state of joy when we're making that food. And we can't outsource our health because, because restaurants and grocery markets are businesses. They're not designed to— they're not in the business of our health. They're in the business of making money. And so if you are thinking that you're going to get healthy eating out all the time, I'm sad to report that it's, in my judgment, impossible. And I know this because I've been in the industry a long time. And if if you're in the business, I used to have a meal delivery service and I would go to places like what we call Restaurant Depot. Restaurant Depot or— Oh, that's nice.

You have one?

Have you heard of Restaurant Depot?

I've actually been in there.

Okay. Yes.

And I couldn't believe, like, you know, like the tomatoes don't even look real sometimes.

No, because they're conventional. So there's Restaurant Depot, Jetro is another name. And then Sysco is not a place where you would go to buy. Sysco delivers to you. And then US Foods is another one, but these are the predominant distributors of restaurant foods. And when you go to these restaurants, there isn't like that small artisanal brand being sold there. They're all the big players like Kraft, Best Foods, you know, all these big players that are using ingredients that are cheap, that are not conducive towards our health. And these are what are also being served at the restaurants. They're just not in the bottles. Like you're not seeing, you know, Kraft mayonnaise or Best Foods mayonnaise, but I guarantee when they serve the mayo on your food, that's what it is. It's, it's one of those providers that is not as, as dialed in with their, with their ingredients. They're dialed in, in distribution and shelf stability, not, not our health.

Yeah. I love that you bring this up because, I have friends that actually eat out most of the time. You know, my husband and I, he's Greek, I'm Romanian. We love to cook at home. It's like a, a nice family activity. And how can people, if you have advice, how can they make cooking fun?

Yeah. I love, I love it. I love this question because it is really important. You know, we're not just trying to identify the problem, but we're trying to provide solutions. And so what we want to think, focus on is now, now I'll just say that just because we're human does not mean that we need to love to cook. So just because we have to eat doesn't mean you have to love to cook. There's so many people that don't like cooking. So I say, let's embrace the fact that we don't have to love cooking. So let's just honor that. It's okay. And then, so stop putting pressure on yourself. Second thing. Is focus on the environment. So create a joyful environment. Put on music, put on your favorite podcast like the Holistic Dentistry Podcast. Put on your favorite one, like, just make it a joyful experience. You know, talk to your best friend while you're cooking. Focus on— focus not on recipes because sometimes recipes are stressful, but focus on formulas. So you know that you have to have a protein, you have to have some fat, maybe you have vegetables, maybe you have a resistant starch. So just focus on pairing those.

Those.

And like, like sometimes if I'm creating a more Asian style meal, I'll choose, let's say chicken and I'll choose tamari and I'll use coconut oil as the fat. And then I'll use like a bok choy for the vegetable, you know? So I'll just, I'll just kind of focus on foods that either go together or that look really attractive when I'm at the grocery store. You can, you can, you know, pick the foods based on how they look. It's okay. You know, it doesn't have to fit some specific design. Because if you think about it, we put so much stress on cooking. Like, I always use an apple, for example, as an, you know, as a good example of that. Even if you cut the apple, it's still an apple. Like, you don't have to worry about it being perfect. You just gotta— you just gotta create really healthy fuel for yourself. And once you start doing that, you— it's amazing how much better you'll feel. Most people don't realize that they're not living and feeling optimal And that's because their body, if you think about it, so those Frankenfoods or those ultra-processed foods we identified that are very recent, these are foods for the most part that make, put our body on alert. They create inflammation. They create indigestion, gas, that basically our body, when our body is on alert, it's, it's, it's like you feel tense, you know, you almost feel stress, right? You don't feel good in your body, but then just like, you know this. So how did you feel when you would eat organ meats or if you've ever had bone broth, How does your body feel? Like when I drink it, I feel like my body is curling up in, in like with a warm blanket in front of a fire. It just feels so calming and safe. And that's what we want our food to create. We want our food to feel safe. And when we choose these kind of real foods or these ancestral foods, that is how your body feels.

Yes, absolutely right. It's a comfort food to have, like you said, bone broth. And let's talk about spices. Because you know, there's, it's so important to have the right spice. And you are the founder, CEO of an organ-based superfood seasoning called Pluck that I use myself. I love both the garlic and the original.

Nice.

And nobody can tell that I'm using organ meats in the food, which is the amazing part of what you created. Like, how did you choose these flavors?

Well, I am, so I am a chef of 20+ years, as you mentioned at the top. So for me, flavor is everything. I really do believe like, what's, what's the difference between, you know, Italian and Mexican? It's the flavors. They're different flavors. They're different regions. And they, with them, they, they have these beautiful, abundant regional flavors. So for me, that's what makes food interesting is the flavor. But I'm also a father and I want to get the healthiest food in my kids because I want them to thrive. And then in turn, I want to thrive because I want to be I'm not going to, you know, be around long enough to walk them down the aisle should they decide to do that. And so for me, it became imperative when I became a father, it was no longer like, oh, let's just create healthy food or let's, let's be a foodie and eat what we want. It was imperative that it's like, no, no, no, no. I need to get these foods into my kids and I need to get them into them without a fight. Cause as parents, we already work hard enough. I don't want more work after I cook, you know, I don't want to make something in the kitchen and then have my kids refuse to eat it. And then there's this fight at the dinner table. I want to just know they're getting this nutrition and that they like it and that is flavorful. And so that's why I went to seasonings, because I knew we already have organ meats freeze-dried and powdered and they're being put in capsules. So I already knew that that existed, but organ meats are a food, as you identified at the top of this, that you ate them as a kid. Like, why are they now in capsules? Like, why can't we bring them back to being in their food state? But I get it, we're in this modern society, we've lost the taste for organ meats. We think they're icky. We've lost the culinary knowledge. We don't really know how to cook them anymore. And then for many people, they don't know where to source them. So I was like, let me solve those. So I took liver, kidney, heart, spleen, pancreas, because they're all, you know, they're all really great organs to get in. I'm hoping to add lung to this mix in a few, in a few months in the new year. And then I combined them with organic spices and herbs and salt. And I made getting that organ meat nutrition as easy as just salting your food. And the beautiful thing for people like me who, who are parents and live in and have a family, so one of the hardest things with anyone's diet is changing their diet. So it's really hard to remove someone's safe foods, like the foods that they feel, you know, that they just feel safe with, right? With Pluck, I don't have to change your diet. I just have to add this to the foods you're already eating. And so now it's no longer this hurdle of like trying to get your kids to like, change what feels safe to them. You simply add it to the mac and cheese. You simply add it to the pizza, to the, to the ketchup with the nuggets, you know, the chicken dino nuggets, whatever they're eating. And then you slowly start to adjust their palate because pluck is an umami flavor. So there's 4 flavors we grew up with. We had salty, sweet, bitter, sour. The 5th one is umami that was discovered in the '90s in Japan. And they're all unique flavors. And so typically when you have a picky eater, you have that, that person is kind of stuck in salty sweet. So the way to help get them out of that picky eating and to adjust their palate is to incorporate the other 3 flavors: sour, bitter, and umami. So Pluck is very umami, and we get lots of testimonies of people who simply just add Pluck to the food the kids are already eating, and the kids start to get more adventurous because the umami is Bringing new flavor to their palate. Another trick you can do is you can add, like, for example, sauerkraut juice or fermented vegetable juice. Not the fermented vegetables, just the juice is sour. And so you can simply add a little bit of that to like the ketchup the kids are eating and, and just slowly add tiny bit at first, but then slowly over time increase it and you will start to bring more sour to the child's palate and start to recalibrate the palate there. But it's amazing how much you can do by just recalibrating the palate, pulling out certain foods and reintroducing. Introducing newer foods that ha— hit those flavor profiles. You can literally change a kid from picky to adventurous. Wow.

Fascinating. That's a great tip cuz I know a lot of parents listening to this are, are struggling. What is one of your daughter's favorite foods that you, you know, you're making for her or using Pluck?

Well, I didn't know this when I created it. I didn't realize how versatile Pluck was gonna be. I thought, well, you just put it on beef, for example, cuz it's coming from 100% grass-fed cows. So I thought, well, would You just stick with beef, but I quickly realized it's actually incredibly versatile. Like that umami flavor just brightens everything. So over time, I mean, we put it on our eggs. I put it on salads. I put it on fish, any poultry, or I'm sorry, any protein, like poultry, fish, beef, of course. But the one that's, we do a lot that a lot of people don't, it's not obvious for people, but it really does. It kind of, it really elevates the food is popcorn. It's really good. So when we have family movie night, we put it on our popcorn and the kids love it. And they, if anything, they actually want it. Like they request it. And it's super cool. Like I've gotten my kids to eat broccoli because I said, well, how about I put butter and pluck on it? And they were like, okay, but they wouldn't do it just with the butter. Like they wanted it with the pluck because it's bringing that flavor that they love. And honestly, I don't think it's just the flavor that they love. I think on a certain level, the kids are also responding to what their bodies are craving. You know, when you introduce an ancestral food or a real food to kids that they're missing in their diet, their body knows what it needs. And we've gotten reports that kids have tantrums when they run out of pluck, which I, which I think is, you know, kind of funny, but also like is, is, is a real testimony of like, oh, this is This is clearly what their bodies need. If they're having a tantrum over a seasoning, then their bodies are really needing what's in that seasoning. And fortunately, it's, it's organ meats, you know, which are Mother Nature's multivitamin.

Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about that multivitamin concept, because a lot of people don't even know this. They just think, oh, it's just an organ, throw it away. What kind of vitamins are in organ meats?

The best way I can, you know, I try to always explain this as easy and kind of simply as possible. And the simplest way of explaining it is, you know, all the vitamins that the science and doctors will say that you need to create life, you know, B vitamins, iron, folate, magnesium, you know, vitamin D, vitamin A, of course, right? So all of those vitamins that the science tells us, this is what you need to create life. It is all in Orgamates, all of it, all the B vitamins, lots of iron. And what's beautiful about it. Is it's all in the most absorbable form and it's all synergistically paired because something we learned a long time ago, anyone that was taking iron pills, you know, in the '60s, it was just straight iron. And what we learned later on was like, oh, this iron doesn't absorb without its synergistic, you know, mineral kind of sister, you know what I mean? And so it's like, we've tried to recreate food in the laboratory, you know, whether it's vitamin C and then realizing, oh, vitamin C is not getting very absorbed until you add the rose hips and the other parts of that you would usually find in the real food. Well, the beautiful thing is that the organ meats are real food. So it's literally as nature intended for us to get the most absorption of those minerals and vitamins. And if you think about it, when people used to hunt these animals, usually when you hunt, you would fast. And you did that because it heightened your hunting skills. So you were sharper with your hearing and sharper with your eyes. It's just anyone that's fasted knows what I'm talking about because you just feel more sensitive. To everything around you.

Interesting.

Well, yeah, it really is. But when, after you make the kill, you then are exhausted because your adrenal, you basically have an adrenaline dump, right? And so you're just shot. And so now you need to eat something and you know what they used to eat? They would eat either the heart or the liver raw right there. So right there, that tells you that that's kind of like, that is that food that really just gives you that power punch of nutrients. And to the point where we've gotten reports of people using Pluck late at night meat. So we have a pure product that is 100% organ meat, and if you eat that too late at night, you may get a surge of energy because it's filled with B vitamins that are extremely absorbable. And most people aren't used to eating food that is so absorbable, or supplements that are so absorbable. Most supplements that we are taking off the shelf, we just pee out, you know, we don't get as much as what's in there.

So true. Now you're using grass-fed beef organs. How does it get from the animal to the pluck container?

Yeah, so we are sourcing from New Zealand and we're doing new— we, we're getting them from New Zealand cuz sadly there isn't really a supply chain set up here in the US that will enable us to get the whole animal. So as I mentioned, we're using liver, heart, kidney, those three you can find in the US, but then we're also using spleen and pancreas, much harder to find. Particularly pancreas.

You never see it at the store, for example.

You never see it unless it's in supplement form, and then they're getting it from New Zealand or Argentina. And pancreas is really interesting because all 5 of those organs, they all have what we call like supports like. So they're all supporting different parts in your body. Heart, for example, has CoQ10, and anyone taking a cardiovascular supplement, guess what's in it? CoQ10. Pancreas has natural digestive enzymes. So if you're taking like a pineapple enzyme to support digestion, You don't have to take that when you're eating pluck. So it's beautiful when we use real food to achieve the outcomes, the desired outcomes that we're getting from, you know, the 5 bottles or, or 10 bottles that we have on our counter. You can actually get it if you're eating the right foods. So we get them from ranches in New Zealand that are, as we mentioned, 100% grass-fed, non-GMO, and that are meeting our qualifications. And then they're going to a freeze dryer. Where they freeze dry the product. So first it's frozen cuz you need to, you know, whenever you're kind of not cooking something, you wanna make sure it's first frozen, similar to like sushi-grade fish. You wanna make sure it's frozen for at least 14 days to basically kill any parasites or anything like that could be in it. And then once it's frozen, then it's processed to uniform size and it's freeze dried and then we powder it. And then from there it gets sent to us from New Zealand and then we are combining it with our seasoning blends that have Redmond real salt, organic spices and herbs. But then we have that one SKU that's just the Orgami. And what's kind of cool about the one that's pure is that can, A, be given to your pets. So if you have a picky eating pet that doesn't eat their kibble, 'cause the truth is kibble is not really a pet's optimal food either. So we're feeding our pets grains and that's not what they would normally eat. So, but I get it, it's expensive to feed your pet raw or to feed, feed them lots the way you would eat, you know, it's, it's expensive. So you don't have to change, you know, feeding them kibble, but you can take the Pure and you can sprinkle it on their food. And we have found it guarantees that your, your pet will eat their kibble or eat whatever you're feeding them.

So amazing. I'm gonna try, I have two cats at home and they love, you know, to eat tuna. We give 'em pretty simple diets, but sometimes, you know, they just finicky. I'm gonna start putting the Pure on them.

The Pure, it works. I, in fact, I had a cat who would not eat unless we put it on her food. She trained well. Yeah, she was very, it was almost frustrating because I would sprinkle it on and then she would eat what was on top and then she would wait for me to do it again. So I, all day I'd just have to keep sprinkling it on her food.

My cat's like this.

Very high, high maintenance cat, but, uh, they usually are. Yeah. Right. But the Pure is great also for humans. And what's cool about the Pure is that it can be sweet or savory, so you can add it to a smoothie. You can add it to a hot beverage. You could add it to brownies and no one would know. And that's the beauty of whenever I'm kind of telling people how to ease into organ meats, you know, while Pluck is a great first option because it's so easy, it doesn't have to be your only option. Another tip on how to ease organ meats in is you take a frozen, let's say, liver that you got from your local store or farmer's market, keep it frozen. Don't, don't defrost it because when it's defrosted, that's when it's overwhelming. Keep it frozen, and then every time you're doing ground meat, pull it out of the freezer and literally take your cheese grater and just grate the liver into the ground meat.

Wow.

And then put it back in the freezer. And that, you don't need to do too much. You know, you want to keep the ratio to about 2 tablespoons to, start with 1 tablespoon, but don't go higher than 2. So that's 1 tablespoon initially to 1 pound of ground meat. And guess what? It doesn't have to be ground beef. It could be turkey, it could be lamb, it could be chicken. It doesn't matter. As long as you keep that ratio of OrganMeat to about 1 tablespoon or 2 tablespoons and then mix it well, no one will know it's in there.

Amazing. That's such a great tip. I mean, I actually love liver and I, we cook it at home with onions and, you know, we eat it. But I love this idea of grating the frozen liver. What a great tip.

Yeah. It doesn't, you know, and the beautiful thing too about it is once again, you're getting the nutrients in your kids, but then you're also helping to reshape their palate. So it's, it's really cool. I cannot stress enough. We've now been around long enough where we've seen a lot of cases studies, a lot of people responding to Pluck, and it's across the board. It's supported adventurous eating. It supports skin health. It supports hair, hair growth, hair, hair health. It supports cardiovascular health. It supports, it supports helping people get pregnant. And we hear so many stories about when people are eating their organ meats, not only do they find more success in getting pregnant, but they also have better experiences while they're pregnant. And then We get reports from midwives and doulas that tell us the placenta of the women who ate Orgami is always a better color and a better size than the people that don't. So we're seeing like hard facts of like, this is how Orgami impacts your life when you start doing that way. Improved sleep, improved brain fog, like where people start to actually like remember things better. So improved energy. I mean, the list goes on. Every biological process that occurs in your body can be supported with organ meats. It doesn't have to be all you eat. Of course you want to eat everything else, but adding these real foods, Mother Nature's multivitamin, to your diet has humongous effects. And it's natural. It's totally natural.

Yeah.

I was going to say that there's a myth of like, what if you, can you get too much? Right. Cause they're so nutrient packed. That can you get too much vitamin A or can you get too much iron? Here's the power of this Homo sapiens body that was developed so long ago. We have a neuro-lingual response. So when we eat food and we eat it mindfully, meaning that we're sitting down and we're not rushing and we're not doing 50 other things, but when we eat it mindfully, we get a communication. Like if I put salt on your tongue, is your body going to let me put salt on your tongue 4 times? I guarantee it won't. The first time it's going to say yes. The second time, third time, ugh, get out. And the fourth time, it's literally going to reject it. So your body has a communication pathway when used that will preserve it because it wants you to live. It doesn't want to die. So it's going to make sure that if you're trying to lift something too heavy for it, that it releases its grip. It's going to make sure that if you're eating organ meats, they will start to not taste good. Because if you don't need, if you have too much iron or if you don't need them, it won't let you eat too much. You just have to be listening to the body and let what it was designed to do happen.

Yeah. Great wisdom there, Chef Berry. And I, you know, the good thing is you came up with a genius way for us to eat organ meats without the texture, because this is the one of the things, you know, my friends come over when I'm cooking liver, I hate the texture. So, you know, by doing pluck on your foods and also grating that frozen liver, that's amazing. Nobody can have to deal with the texture.

Yeah. Texture is really big. It's, it's funny. I think if anything, we are more, um, we're more texture hounds than we are flavor. 'Cause if you think about it, when you eat, let's say a bag of chips, the first, you only taste the first 3 or 4, but by the time you're at your 5 and beyond, you're just chasing the crunch. It's not the flavor.

So true. So, where can people find you, Chef Barry?

You can find us on our website at eatpluck.com. You can find us on Amazon as well. We sell there. And then you can find us on our socials at Eat Pluck, and I am @chefjamesbarry.

This was an amazing conversation about organ meats, everyone. And please look in the show notes. And by the way, shortly we're going to have Pluck at our retail shop at the Beverly Hills Dental Health and Wellness. Thank you so much, James, and see you soon. Thank you so much for joining me this week. Please make sure you check out the show notes for any links mentioned in the show. If you like today's show, please invite your friends to listen as well. That would mean a lot to me. Do you have a question you'd like me to answer? Message me on Instagram @DrSandaMoldovan. This is Dr. Sanda Moldovan, and remember, your mouth is the gateway to your health, so take care of it in the most natural and best way possible.