Unlocking the Power of Laser Therapy: A Comprehensive Guide for Chiropractors

Welcome to the Practice Builders Podcast hosted by Dr. Vince Leone and Dr. Kyle Pankinen, your source for building cash services. Let's dive in. Okay, welcome everybody to the Practice Builders Podcast. Uh, my name is Dr. Vince Leone.

I'm Dr. Kyle Pankinen.

And today we have a special guest and it's Joe Kenreck from MLS Lasers. Joe, how you doing today?

Good. How you doing, Dr. Leone? How you doing, Dr. Pankinen?

Doing great.

Fantastic. Yeah, we're excited because, um, we're going to talk, uh, high-level, you know, lasers in general, and then— but we'll also drill down into the MLS laser as well because this is the laser that I use in practice and Dr. Pankinen uses in practice currently. And so it's, um, really by, by and far The— our most recommended laser. And so we wanted to, um, you know, get a, a good sense of, you know, what the technology is, uh, how does it compare to other, um, types of lasers in the market? What are some pitfalls that doctors fall into, um, either when thinking about investing in laser, um, integrating it into their practice? And, um, and then best practices, you know, in terms of from a clinical standpoint, and, you know, ultimately how to get a good return on your investment. So I think that should be a good kind of, uh, intro to— intro and, and, and even a pro level to lasers. So let's go ahead and dive in. And, um, Joe, you're the expert on the MLS, so let's look at a high-level look at The MLS and from a technology standpoint.

Well, all right, I appreciate that. I think it's interesting when you take a look at lasers in general, the fastest adopters of lasers of all the specialists has been chiropractors. They were the first into lasers. They started with Class 2 lasers. Which, and then class 3 lasers, which were a little bit superficial in terms of benefit to tissue. Here's an interesting fact. Insurance companies used to actually reimburse for lasers back in the day. And somewhere along the line, they looked at a doctor's practice and some doctors bundle services, right? So they might do an adjustment, they might do laser, they might do a massage or a rolling table. And the insurance company said, you know what, we're not going to reimburse for lasers any longer. And that is a godsend because at that point, doctors could actually control their revenue for their practice by bringing in lasers, determining their own price instead of worrying about reimbursements and the fact that reimbursements continue to go down. So doctors started bringing in Class 3 lasers. A lot of them really like the concept of a laser, and they understood what a laser should do. They just weren't seeing the results that they wanted to. So lasers went from Class 2 and Class 3 to Class 4. Now, if you've ever had LASIK surgery done, that was done with a Class 4 laser. If you've ever had a wart removed, that was a Class 4 laser. Class 4 lasers are known for being hot. And so even when they developed Class 4 therapy lasers, those lasers could create a lot of heat on tissue, and there was a concern about thermal damage. So some doctors went down that road because they wanted the power to get deep into musculoskeletal issues. But they also were a little concerned about the amount of damage they could do, especially if they delegated the treatments to a staff member. Who wasn't necessarily paying attention to the thermal damage that could be developing. So what makes us unique in the world is we are the only Class 4 laser in the world that doesn't create heat. And because of that, we developed a robotic laser that could actually treat patients without a staff member being in the room. So the laser will actually work off an X and Y grid, trace out the treatment area over tissue, The staff just need to aim it at the body part that's needed to be treated. They hit the start button. They can now walk out of the room, and you no longer are paying for a staff member to deliver the laser energy. So you're saving there. And number 2 is you have no risk. So there's never a reputation issue or a liability issue, which you might have seen with some of the other handheld Class 4 lasers.

Yeah. And so really quickly, what is the difference between Class 2, 3, and 4?

Power levels.

Okay.

So the more powerful the depth of penetration, or is that hand in hand? Yeah, well, they tend to go hand in hand, but also depth of penetration is also tied to frequency nanometers. So a lot of doctors get lost in— if they're looking at lasers, they get lost in this one has 605, this one has 635, this has 808, this has 905 nanometers. Right? And they're trying to figure out what is the best. And there are specific nanometers that go deeper into tissue and great get better results. But at the end of the day, it's not about wavelengths per se; it's about efficacy. So if I can get an effective treatment from a patient, and that patient then is not only willing to pay for that treatment because they're getting relief. But now that patient is actually going out into the world and telling their friends about what they just had in terms of a treatment and who their doctor is. That's more important than anything else. Bringing effectiveness to the patient, getting the results that you want as a doctor for your patients, and those patients reimbursing you and paying you for those services, and then referring friends and family. That's how you build a practice. So, you know, doctors kind of get lost in nanometers and wavelengths and color of the spectrum. But really, that's the least of your concern. Efficacy is your concern.

Yeah. And I would, I would obviously totally agree. Is, I mean, is Class 2 even used anymore? I mean, it seems kind of an old technology.

It is. Every once in a while, if I go into a practice and I talk to a doctor and I'll say, have you ever owned a laser? A lot of times they'll go through their drawers or they'll open up a closet and kind of go through the shelf and pull out their one or two different lasers they've bought in the past. And they've just gone through a process of updating their laser as they realize it's just not getting me what I want in terms of patient outcomes. And then I'm— then I don't— if I'm not getting outcomes, I don't feel comfortable charging my patients. So they realize I need to take it up a notch to take it up a notch, and then they ultimately end up getting to us somewhere along the line.

And MLS is a Class 4, correct?

It is a Class 4.

Yeah. Yeah.

How does, how does it differentiate with other Class 4 lasers in the sense that other ones produce heat but the MLS does not? I think doctors probably want to know how that technology works. How do you, how do you accomplish that, in other words?

Sure.

No, that's a great question. So we use 2 different wavelengths. One is SuperPulse, which means it's up to, uh, used to be 25 watts of peak power. With the new M7, we're now at 50 watts of peak power. And then 808, which is on half the time, off half the time. This would be a good time for a graphic, but if you can visualize the sine wave of a light pattern, right? So you have, you have the hill and valley of a light wave. All of the energy is being delivered on the front end. Of that wavelength, so all the energy is being delivered on the front end. The body responds as if it's been heated, but the second part of the wavelength, the valley, allows for thermal relaxation. So we put energy into the body, and then the body has time to relax and release energy before the next pulse comes with more energy. So every once in a while, you'll feel you know patients will say. You know, I feel a little warmth, but when they put their hand on the treatment area, they realize, oh, there's nothing there. Right. So for most patients, they're not going to feel anything. Some patients will feel a gentle warmth, but there's no risk to the patient at all.

Is the warmth due to the increase in blood flow?

It typically is.

Right. So here's the simple way I always explain to patients, like, what is this going to do? I'm like, first, you're not going to feel anything. So I just want to tell you that now. Because if I do this and you're like, well, why am I not feeling anything right now? You may think it's not working. That's actually a good thing because some lasers have a thermal effect that can be uncomfortable. So you're not going to feel this, right? So that's always— I found really, really important to pre-frame the patient because a lot of times people, if they don't feel anything, they think it's not working. So that's the first thing I always tell doctors. Hey, Pre-frame the patient, let them know what they are and are not going to feel. Um, and then this, like, the really simple is like, hey, what is this gonna do? It's gonna increase blood flow, it's gonna decrease inflammation, and it's gonna accelerate healing.

Okay.

If you can just like get those 3 things through the patient's mind, it's gonna increase blood flow, which brings all the healing nutrients. It's gonna decrease inflammation. And it's going to accelerate healing, then they can start to be, oh, okay. So I can kind of get that. And I think doctors are sometimes confused on what the primary talking points are around laser. And that's, that's what I, you know, keep it simple, high level. 3 things is how I is what I'd recommend there.

Right. You last thing you want to do is start going down the Krebs cycle with a patient, right?

Oh my gosh. Like talk about putting them to sleep. So keep it super high level, guys. When, when talking with laser. Um, but the, the key thing, everyone wants to get better faster, you know.

Right.

Do you want to, do you want to, you know, do you want to get better slow or fast? Fast, of course, as soon as possible. So that's the big thing with laser that I've seen and Dr. Kyle's seen is because, you know, we talk about adding it into even all your chiropractic protocols because we use laser as, as kind of the backbone of our high-ticket niche protocols, decompression neuropathy and knee pain. Um, but you can add it to the practice with all your chiro patients. Everyone's a, everyone's a laser candidate as long as there's no contraindications. And we talked, we talked about this before, Silver Plan, chiro only, Gold Plan, chiro plus laser. So, um, so I think that's enough on the tech level. Um, how would you compare and contrast your laser with others in the market?

Yeah, I think the easiest way to look at it is, um, A, we take the risk out, right? Because doctors are getting to the point where they want a Class 4 laser, they want deep penetration, they want to get good results. But the, the risk again associated with that is thermal damage tied to too much energy being delivered to the body, uh, in, in a too small of an area.

Mm-hmm.

And then the other side of that is a lot of times doctors look at the price of the laser as opposed to the price of delivering the treatment, right? So if you're paying, let's call her Becky, $12 an hour, that's $25,000 a year. If you give her any benefits, it's $30,000 a year. So now you're paying Becky $30,000 a year to run a laser that might have cost you $20,000.

Right.

So the most expensive part of the laser—

and sorry, just to interrupt. So that would be an attended laser. Yeah. Because those are typically cheaper, whereas MLS is robotic, which is unattended. So I just, just want to clarify that for the listeners.

Yeah. So that's a big thing, right? So you have your staff is tied up doing the treatments. There is risk of thermal damage if the staff is not paying a lot of attention to the patient and the treatment area. And they do create a hotspot. Now you have liability and reputation issues. And worse, sometimes that staff member doesn't want to use that laser again because they burnt somebody, right?

100%.

And so now it's in your hands, the doctor's hands, and you as a doctor should be doing doctor things for doctor pay, not holding a laser. So if I can take a— if I can take a patient, lay them down, aim The laser at a treatment area, have the X and Y treatment area laid out so my staff can see it. And then all they got to do is push a button and 8 to 10 to 12 minutes later come back in and help Mrs. Johnson off the table. That is much more effective and cost-effective. So the laser gets better results and the cost to you as a doctor diminishes.

Yeah, so how we used that was we had a tech— usually had one tech for 2 table decompression tables and one laser, so, uh, or 2 lasers, but usually one. But the point being is they could set the laser, go take someone off the table, get them prepped, bring them back, take the patient off laser, put the other patient on laser. So you can see that they're— they can be in and out of the room. Now, we don't have visual on the, the laser, but It's a very— what I like about the MLS One, it looks cool. I mean, I know that that's very simplistic, but it is pretty, pretty sexy looking, um, because it's significant, right? It stands about 4 feet high.

Right.

And so, when you program it, you'll see there's, I think, on like lumbar, for instance, or I think there's 6 points that it goes to. And so, you put it over point 1 and then it's just going to, you know, every minute or 2 minutes, whatever the timing is, You'll just, you know, move to the next one, move to the next one. And so it's getting, you know, the full coverage area. And, you know, oh, by the way, I think, you know, perception matters with patients when it comes to if they're going to invest because it's a cash-based service.

Right. And I think here's the other side of it. Getting great results is tied to dosing, right? So we've all doodled somewhere along the line. We've all scribbled. If you can imagine yourself with a 3 by 3 square of paper in front of you and you're just trying to color in That with a pen, you would recognize that some areas would be white, some areas would have one loop of ink, and somewhere in the middle would be a high density of ink. Right? That's a visual explanation of how treatments are done with a handheld laser. Right? So Becky is just going back and forth over tissue. But what she does on Monday is not what she does on Wednesday is not what she does on Friday. So the dosing is constantly changing, and more importantly, there's a hotspot. So even if she doesn't get to the point where she's raised temperature enough to burn the patient, most of the energy is getting in one small area. So your dosing is not controlled. With the MLS, you actually have a 3 by 3 grid, and it starts in the corner, and it's going to treat back and forth, back and forth throughout that grid. If you know, and get the results that you want, and the dosings are exact, whether it's Monday, whether it's Wednesday, whether it's Friday, whether it's Becky and then Sally on a different day, the treatments are going to be the same. And you can adjust the size of the treatment area appropriately. So a knee might be 3 by 3, whereas a lumbar might be 4 by 6, right?

I that is super important to me, right? When you're trying to kind of systemize your Delivery and your outcomes having the same dosage on a regular basis. Dr. Kyle, what do you feel like are the— some of the pitfalls doctors fall into when thinking about investing in a laser and then actually integrating it into their practice?

Yeah, so the biggest pitfall always is the financial hurdle, and I think Joe did a great job of addressing that. If you have a robotic laser, that staff is freed up. You're freed up to work on other things. And so your bottom line is you can run more people through therapy. And if you have more than one laser, which I rec— almost every doctor I've talked to that got the MLS laser, once they got one and, and revved it up in a sense and started using it on people, they almost all like, oh, I need a second one because the The revenue that they're generating on one, and the patient satisfaction, the patient success rate just demands they need a second one. And they're they're happy to get a second one because they see the results. They see their bottom line increasing. And we started in 2016 with one laser. Now we're up to five lasers, and I know Dr. Leone had four in practice, and it just. It snowballs year after year. So don't worry, people are listening. If you're investing thousands and thousands of dollars, you'll easily recoup that if you use it right. And that's the big other pitfall, is doctors need to realize, as Dr. Vince said, that every patient that walks through your door, basically, with few exceptions, is a— potential laser candidate, especially in a chiropractic office, because they're coming in with some kind of pain 98% of the time. And whatever you normally were— are doing up to this point in your practice, just add laser into it.

Mhm.

Your package, and you're going to see your results improve, and you're going to see your bottom line improve. So the pitfall is The laser is sitting in the corner and gathering dust because you're not recommending it. So, if you recommend it, people are going to do it and they're going to love the results.

I think really quick, another thought on that is, uh, pitfall-wise, they get a little scared on the price point, um, but they, they don't really think about, am I keeping up with the general community and, and being at the forefront of, of, you know, healing. So in other words, you're— it's $1,000 a month for, for the laser, right, until it's paid off. Um, and obviously there's different price points, but it's usually like $1,000 a month. So the way I would look at that is like, one, I'm investing in my practice, so I'm keeping up with technology and the ability to get patients better as fast as possible and help people that I wouldn't normally be able to help with just chiropractic. But also from a dollars and cents, it's like, well, hey, okay, that's $1,000. Well, if you charge $100 and you're doing 12-visit plans on like, you know, just your regular shoulder, knee, neck, that type of thing, well, shoot, I mean, you could be at 5x your monthly very, very quickly and easily if you just start, uh, recommending it with your normal chiropractic flow. And that's not even considering it adding it into your you know, if you're doing like spinal decompression or knee or neuropathy, not even considering doing that because it's actually more visits for when we're in those protocols. So, um, I, I, I, I just advise doctors, don't be shortsighted when it comes to the investment because you, uh, you need to invest to stay with the, the curve. Uh, otherwise you're, you're falling behind. And these days people want They want the latest and greatest. I mean, it just is what it is.

Well, and here's another thing. When you say it's $1,000 a month, a lot of times doctors think, hey, that $1,000 is coming out of my pocket, right? I have to pay for that. And then I have to hope to recoup that somewhere down the line. The reality is we offer zero down and zero for 6 months, and you need 1 to 2 patients a month That more than covers the cost of the laser. If you have, you know, one to two patients a week, you're looking at generating fifty, sixty thousand dollars with just a few patients. And if you're seeing, let's say, a hundred patients a week, just for easy math, and I know most of your chiropractors are seeing a lot more than a hundred patients a week, but if you had two percent, two patients, you're making significant revenue. And then if you go down specialty like you gentlemen are talking about, whether it's knees or neuropathy or decompression, that number explodes. So I have a lot of doctors that are making north of 6 figures with just one laser, right? And they start bringing in multiple lasers, then things just go from there. The other thing to keep in mind is if you are a busy chiropractic patient or practice, you don't necessarily want more patients per se because you're already busy adjusting. Right, all day long. But when you have patients that you're adjusting and they also have conditions, let's say plantar fasciitis, carpal tunnel, uh, tennis elbow, things that can be treated with a laser, now you're adjusting them, you send them to the laser room, they get treated with laser, they go home and tell their friends and family, and the next thing you know is you have people on your doorsteps asking for laser treatments Who have never considered going to a chiropractor, but they've been through every other specialist and they're still in pain. And and a friend said, "Oh, I had this laser treatment," and they're saying, and they're coming to you saying, "Can you tell me about the laser? Can you treat me for the laser?" You're not picking up another chiropractic patient; you're picking up a new pain patient that the laser is going to address. So now Sally or Becky. Is, is no longer a cost center for you because she's running your laser center and she's creating new profits for you. So you're increasing your workload in terms of patient population, but you're not increasing your workload in terms of what you are physically doing to patients, right? So the best way to make more money is not increase your workload, but actually delegate to your staff and technology. to generate secondary incomes in the room down the hall while you adjust patients in the other room.

Yeah, I mean, Jay Abraham said it best. He's like, the easiest way to make or to increase revenue in any type of business is add an additional service and offer it to your existing patients, clients, customers, whatever. And so this is actually a true passive revenue stream if you can, you know, have the staff to do it. So that, that's a good Segue into kind of best practices of how to integrate this. And the first thing I would say is you need to be thinking of it as, as its own little business within the business, right? So that you can say, hey, so it's going to— the investment is X per month, and then so-and-so is going to be running it. And then what, you know, what do I need to do to 5 or 10x that particular investment? And it's very easy to do. But So that's— that would be my first thing because like Dr. Kyle, we've been obviously working together for a long time and he knows the stats like he knows exactly how much he generated in revenue in 2023 in just laser. So that would be the first thing is really identifying and thinking of it as a separate revenue stream. So you have chiropractic and this is how we work with clients. Okay, we have chiropractic, we have decompression, we have laser. And so that way You know, you can think of, well, what's my total target revenue? Say it's $100,000. Well, I want $50,000 to be chiro, you know, $25,000 to be decompression, or $25,000 to be laser. Or if you're like, well, I want to work less and make more, I want 25% to be chiro, 50% to be decompression, and 25% laser. That way, like Joe was saying, you can, you know, you can add revenue without adding work because that's our whole thing, right? We want We went with our niches. It's like, hey, staff systems and technology is going to deliver patient care. So then it's less wear and tear on the body and time too. So, Dr. Pankinen, what, what is another best practice in terms of integrating laser into the, uh, chiropractic practice from your perspective?

Yeah, if you can get one staff— we have one main staff person and her name happens to be Sally.

Is it?

It is Sally. She's— she is a godsend. And she, she just embraced the laser, the technology, and she just loves it. She watches videos about the laser and on YouTube and stuff, and people receiving it and testimonials and stuff. But the bottom line is, if you can get one strategic staff person behind it, and that's, that's your laser gal, your laser tech, and She's talking about it to patients when they're having laser and explaining those, the things we talked about, what it does to the body, and answering questions they have about it and telling other people about the patients, about so-and-so patient, this, they had the same condition and they got, they got better from it. And it's just, it snowballs. And the laser, you, you're right when you say. Patients will come in and they, they don't even sometimes really want to even see me. They said, I want that laser that I saw, or that my friend told me about, my neighbor told me about. And I'm like, oh, I'm not insulted by that. I'm like, great. Hey, go back for laser then. And it's the revenue that you can generate off of that is tremendous. And so, In our clinic, we have one gal that's our primary laser gal, and she has another one that works with her, helps out. But we just kind of made that her baby, right? She just took it and run with it. And she's— and so as a doctor, I don't even touch the laser, right? It's all staff-driven.

Dr. Kyle doesn't even know how to turn it on.

Well, hopefully you know a little bit about it.

So, Joe, from your perspective, what's another good best practice for integrating laser into a practice?

Well, you know what, the first thing I think is you actually have to, like, elect a pantheon and say, treat it like a business. Find somebody to identify, you know, this is going to be my laser center, and then let your patient population know about it. Too often, doctors are so busy adjusting that they're— they don't go through the process of marketing. But here's a perfect example. We had a doctor who was, was 100% chiro. That was his thought process, and he ended up seeing the laser over a couple weekends. We happened to see each other at different trade shows, decided to buy the laser, and he had just opened up his practice 4 months earlier. So he thought, well, I'm gonna send out an email. So he sent out an email to 300 people, not 300 patients, just let them know I've got this new technology. I'm pretty excited about it. This is what it does. I have a special promotion. If you sign up by this date, you're going to get this type of discount, right? So he had a little bit of a discount. He was working 3 days a week as a chiropractor. He ended up working 6 days for the next month. Because he had so many patients reach out to him, buy not only one package but 2 packages. And so he made $18,000 his first month with a brand new practice just out of the gate with a list of 300 people who then, you know, bought themselves, bought a second time, started referring patients. He bought a second laser within 45 days of getting his first laser. And that's just a matter of letting your patient population know. So if you're not collecting emails, if you're not collecting cell phone numbers and some means of letting your patients know what's going on in your practice, you know, that should be part of your best practice going forward, putting a marketing strategy together, right?

Yeah. And I think that's a great segue, right? So how do we market this thing? So let's, let's kind of dive into that just a little bit. Um, I think, you know, email marketing is great for this, and I would say that, um, it— everyone should be, as Joe said, you should be— have all your patients' emails and phone numbers on some type of deliverable system, right? Some type of CRM, whether it's ActiveCampaign or GoHighLevel or ReviewWave or whatever. So, um, and the easiest way to— like, when you first get the laser, what we do with our clients is, you know, We go to ChatGPT. We say who we are and what we do and what how we help, and we say we have this new technology called deep tissue robotic laser. Can you write me three emails and three texts? And so then we send that out like a Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and you can have a some type of special offer. But that's the the that's the first thing, right? Is is like Joe said, like let your patient base know that you offer it. And then I think Joe, don't you guys also give some good signage that you can put into the reception area? Because Dr. Schaffer, he's a client of ours, and he's in Naples, and, um, he just bought an M7 at this Decompression Summit in September, and he hasn't done anything except put a sign in the reception area, and people are just asking for laser.

Yep. So we bring in brochures, we bring in a wall sign, we bring in pop-up banners. Yeah. And we also have a DVD That has other doctors and other patients talking about lasers. So if you have patients waiting in—

Joe, what? What's a DVD again? I haven't seen a DVD in years, but that's great. I mean, whatever. So I'm sorry, go on. I had to—

No, no, no. You can also get it more digital if you'd like it. But the point is, while patients are waiting in the waiting room, they're hearing about the laser. They're hearing about doctors and patients talking about their results. So then, as soon as they see you, the question is, can the laser help me for this doctor? Right? They're gonna start that conversation, or even better, they're gonna say, hey, you're adjusting my back or my lumbar, but my husband has rotator cuff. That laser talked about treating him. Is that something he could do? And now here she's, you know, Mrs. Johnson's bringing in her husband who's never had chiropractic work. But he wants the laser treatment because he's got a bad shoulder.

Mm-hmm. Right. I love that. I think the signage is like the easiest thing in the world. It's like if you have— if you're seeing like 20 new patients a month and you just put a sign in the reception area that, you know, it's professional looking and it's like, hey, ask about this laser, you're going to get new patients. I mean, it's just— are you going to get new laser patients? Let's specify. You get new laser patients just from signage alone. You add in email marketing. Um, you start adding it to your chiropractic, your silver and your gold plans. Um, I— those are the 3 things that I would do, you know, before you run any Facebook or Google ads or anything like that. Do those cheap and easy things and you will start making money right away. You'll create kind of some momentum in the practice. You'll start to get some results and you will get excited. You're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe these patients are getting these results. And so when you're excited and your team is excited, Then that energy translates to patients, and it will grow from there. You know, yeah, go ahead.

So one of the easiest ways to market your practice is the laser is actually invisible to the naked eye, but many cameras on cell phones today can pick it up, right? So if you take the patient's phone and you point it at the treatment area, and you let them see what the laser actually looks like through video, and you video the laser treatment. They'll move their phone out of the way. They'll look at their knee, let's say, and they can't see the laser energy. They put the phone in front of them again, and there's the laser energy, right?

Mm-hmm.

So now they are armed with an image of the laser. They're getting results, and they go and start talking to their friends on Friday night at the bar, on Saturday at the picnic, and Sunday at church. They're telling all their friends that they're getting an, you know, a treatment with a laser for their knees. And look at this. Well, where did you get that treatment? Oh, Dr. Pankinen, right? So it becomes a marketing piece that your happy patients are using to grow your practice, and it costs you nothing. Just take their phone and video the treatment area.

Yeah, that is a phenomenal recommendation. And by the way, Dr. Shaffer did that, and he got patients from it. So it's people just like, I think, It's like the curiosity factor, you know, combined with actually getting results, I think, is how that, right, uh, you know, manifests. But Kyle, Dr. Kyle, any, um, thoughts on the marketing of the, of the laser from your perspective?

Whenever I have a new patient come in and I, and I think they're a good laser candidate, again, which is almost all of them, I always, if I'm not going to do a treatment the first visit, sometimes I'll do a day 2 report of finds, but I always send them home With information about the laser, I have a couple two-page handout, and then Cutting Edge has a nice brochure that we send home with them. And I say, Mrs. Jones or whoever that we're—I'm thinking that you're going to be a good laser candidate. We'll talk a little bit more about it at your follow-up visit, but I want you to read this information, and it goes through. You know, if it's going to be a six-visit protocol, a twelve, a twenty-four. Common questions about the laser, a little bit detail about how it works. But you know, they read that, they read the brochure, they come in for their second visit, and they're like, it's just 80% of the time, let's let's go with that laser, Dr. Kyle. And right, you know, you recommend it to them with confidence. And the other final piece I would say is this: You know, I've been keeping statistical track of every single laser patient I've treated since 2016. And year in and year out, it never fails. The success rate is between 85% and 91%.

Hmm.

So you, you can confidently tell a patient, whatever we treat with the laser, your odds of success are in that range somewhere. And to most people, it's like, well, that's better than anything I've been offered because I've tried a whole bunch of other things and it hasn't helped me a whole lot. So if you have this technology that can produce these kind of results and you, and you tell it to 'em as a doctor with a degree of confidence because you've seen it, you know it can work, more times than not they're gonna agree to whatever package of treatment that you're offering them because they see real hope that it's gonna really help them.

Right. Yeah, 100%. So let's, we're gonna wrap up here in just a second. Let's talk about price points. Joe, what do you typically see range-wise of what doctors are charging per visit?

You know, we see anywhere from $50 a treatment, and then you put it in a package of 6 or 12 or 24, like Dr. Pankin said. But I also have doctors that are charging $115 per treatment. So really, it's a wide open range. I usually tell my doctors, you know, whatever you're comfortable with, feel free to start with, right? So I usually recommend $60. per treatment. But I'm also going to say to the doctor, and you tell Mrs. Johnson, this is our introductory pricing. That way, you know, 6 months from now when you realize, okay, I'm getting literally no pushback at $60, you can take it to $65 or $70, right? You can continue to take it up. And that's, that's a better way of doing it than just picking a price and thinking that you're, you know, that's your price for the rest of the, you know, your time. Adjust your pricing accordingly. If you get no pushback, you're probably a little low.

Yeah, I would totally agree. I mean, we were always— other doctors were shocked when they knew what we charged for laser per visit. You know, we were— we started with Cutting Edge back in, gosh, I think it was 2012 or 2014 or something like that. And there was this Laser Pain Management Association. It was a really cool group of doctors. All types of doctors too. There was, uh, orthopedists and chiros and PTs and, and vets and all this type of stuff. Anyways, um, and we'd go around, everyone's like, you know, we're charging $50, $60, $70, and we're like, we're charging $150 a visit. And everyone's like, what? And that was, that was a decade ago. So the point being is, if you have the confidence, you can charge whatever you want. Um, frankly, because it works and people pay for what works. So, I would probably say if, you know, if you're in a smaller town, you know, and maybe middle income— well, actually, I like blue-collar middle income, but I think $75,000 to $125,000 is your range. And then it kind of comes down to your comfort level. But I like what you're saying there, Joe, is like, you know, you can start a little lower and then as you get some more confidence with it and if there's not a lot of pushback, then you can, you know, increase your price point. But, um, you know, if you charge too la— too little, then that will have a reverse effect on you because patients won't value it. You know, if it's like $35 a visit or $45, well then they're going to equate it with, you know, uh, whatever, e-stim or, or, you know, some old tech like that versus, oh wow, this is, you know, in other words, if someone gave you a Ferrari and said, hey, you can buy this Ferrari for $20 grand, you'd be like, what's wrong with it? Same thing with laser. Same thing with anything you charge. Like doctors charging like $50 for decompression. Well, that's what people charge for traction. There's a, there's a reason why decompression should be charged more than traction because it's doing much more. So, well, and I think you got to rely—

If you rely on the technology, if you walk Mrs. Johnson past the room where the laser is and they see the laser, In operation or just sitting there, they're going to realize it's a very sophisticated device. And when you say it's X per treatment, they're going to understand. Okay, I get it because you like you said it's four feet tall. It's a very sophisticated device. If they've been to an MRI, that might be the only thing that's more sophisticated in terms of what a normal patient will see in the course of their life. They see that laser. They see it moving, raising, lowering. They're just amazed by it. And and so that helps you with your price point because they're not going to argue against that technology. It's very obvious that you invested in their healthcare by bringing that technology in, and they're willing to participate in that because they want the treatments. They want the outcomes. Hundred percent.

Okay. So Joe, where can doctors reach you now? What your region? What is your your your Michigan and what else?

I'm Michigan, Ohio, and Kentucky. They can reach me. I'll give you my cell phone number.

Sure.

It's 313-590-0048. Or they can see me on LinkedIn under Joseph Kenreck. I do a lot of videos there. I'm very open to talking to doctors, answering questions. So feel free to just reach out and connect with me there. And I'm happy to talk to you.

Yeah, absolutely. And if you're outside of those states, you can always, you know, send me an email at support@drvinceleone.com, and I always connect them with Harold, the co-CEO, and he'll always get kind of best terms, best prices for you. So any parting words? Go to you, Dr. Pankinen, first on laser therapy and if, why, when doctors should think about adding it.

Yeah, I, I just have seen it in my own practice. I'm in a small town, 850 people, and our laser part of our practice has been the one of the biggest parts of our growth. It's the centerpiece. And if you're in a chiropractic practice, you already have all the patients you need in your door that are laser candidates. And If you implement some of the strategies and things we talked about today, you're gonna have success with it. There's there's no ifs ands or buts about it. It's just is how far you want to take it, and you can grow in a great big city with it or in a little itty bitty town like I am and anything in between. And embrace the modern technology would be my parting words.

Yeah, absolutely. How about you, Joe?

You know what, I think in terms of the pie, right? So we talk about what percentage of patients will go to a chiropractor, right? And so you have that patient population already exposed to chiropractic, and you can start to differentiate yourself from other chiropractors in your area and to attract some of those additional patients that are already in that chiropractic slice of the pie, right? But the bigger slice of the pie is the 80 to 90% of the patient population that have never gone to a chiropractor, uh, but they're in pain. And so the easiest way to grow your practice is offer something that those patients also want. So differentiate your practice from the other chiropractors in your area, bring in new technology, start to attract more patients who already understand and appreciate chiropractic Chiropractic, but then also go after the larger patient population who are just looking for pain relief. And the laser allows you to do that.

Yeah, 100%. And I know from my perspective, when we added laser— because we were heavy decompression and neuropathy— when we added laser, the biggest thing for us was the clinical outcomes. Because when you're doing heavy decompression, you get some pretty significant cases come through. Um, and so we were able to help more people and get them to a higher MMI when we added laser. And then with our neuropathy patients, which, which is, if you don't know, it's a very tough niche to— you're just getting very sick people. We got in, you know, significantly better clinical outcomes when we added in the, you know, the MLS to that protocol. So what that does, or what it did for us, it increased confidence from the doctors, it increased confidence in the team. Um, patient got— patients got better results, and, you know, our practice just continued to grow. Um, and so to me, it was, you know, and remains, uh, a no-brainer. So, um, let's, uh, wrap it up there. So, Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it. Dr. Kyle, thank you for your time today. And, uh, so that will wrap it up for this episode of the Practice Builders Podcast, where we focused on laser therapy and the MLS in particular. Hope this has been helpful for you, and we'll see you all on the next episode. Take care. Okay, that was a good show.

I liked it. Hopefully it serves you well. You've obviously done these before. I do do podcasts, yes, and I've done a lot of video myself on LinkedIn because I just see doctors struggle every day. Understanding cash, understanding, you know, patients' willingness to pay. So I think it's important to help doctors. Here's the deal. We need doctors. And too many very smart people are looking at other ways to go through life and make money other than being a doctor.

Oh, I know.

My kids need doctors. My grandkids will need doctors. I need to help doctors make money. And be successful. And the only way to do that is to bring in cash modalities and start moving away from insurance. So—

It's like the Acres of Diamonds story. You know, you're like looking out, oh, you know, I'm going to go invest and try to do a real estate deal, or I can, you know, get a side hustle on Amazon or some BS like that. It's just like, invest in your practice, grow, grow your practice, what you already know and are very good at. And, you know, And start there. I mean, when you have more money than you know what to do with and more money than time, that's when you start, I think, investing into alternative assets. But in the beginning, I think it's most doctors, I mean, they're doing like $20,000, $30,000 a month, if that.

Right.

So, I think you need to be up in that $100,000 a month before you start thinking like, oh, I'm going to go be some real estate developer or some BS like that.

Well, you know, it's funny when I talk to doctors, I'll give them a— I'll show them a dollar bill. And then 2 dimes, right? And I'll say, if you are a rock star in investing and you're getting 20% on your money on a regular basis, that puts you at the top 1%, you and Warren, right? At the end of the year, that dollar got you 20 cents. That same dollar can get you $5 to $8 on a monthly basis if you invest in your practice. And you control who you talk to, how often you talk about the laser or decompression or neuropathy, right? Instead of giving money to somebody that you can't trust and wait a year to find out what happens, you can be investing in your own practice, generating way more money much easier, and it'll have a much more dramatic impact on you. Then take some of that money and throw it in the market if you want an additional 20%, but I couldn't agree more.

I mean, you're, you're— and I don't think that, you know, gosh, I don't think enough doctors think like that, you know, where you can, um— in fact, I just posted in our group, Kyle. I was like, you know, what would it take to 10x your practice? And we, we get in this such a kind of a narrow mindset, but when you start thinking is like, gosh, I can, I could 5x, you know, revenue on a monthly basis by just you know, this one investment. Um, yeah, that's when things— that's when you start to, to really gain some momentum, is when you, when you focus your energy there. That, that's my experience personally anyways.

Yeah. And, you know, I have a, I have a degree in art, so I'm a painter and a sculptor. So, you know, for me, it's my hands, right? And I think to some level, that's the same thing with chiropractic. And let's say orthopedic surgeon, right? It's all in my hands. I know how to. So when your education and all of the reinforcement reinforcing messages that you've got from patients because you've gotten a lot, right? You adjust a patient; they get up. They go, "Oh my God! I can't believe how much better I feel," right? It's your hands. It's then hard to delegate a patient to a technology. And, and rely on that technology when you're so, uh, good with your hands and you've gotten so many positive messages. But you have to because you can only spend so much time adjusting so many patients in the given day. And unfortunately, in your profession, you as a non-invasive pain specialist hurt yourself in the process of helping your patients. So there's a point where not only do you have a time limit, but you also have a fatigue limit, whereas the technology can take over and bring in new revenues and help you with all of that.

Absolutely. Well said. Okay, well, let's wrap it up there. And again, Joe, thank you for your time. I think that was helpful. And I think it'll hopefully be helpful for our audience anyway. So good times. Thank you, gentlemen. And, um, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll see you guys.