Leadership, Complexity, and Why Trust Reduces Complexity with Dr. Tobias Bartholomé

You're listening to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most with Outfluencer, Dr. Wayne Pernell. Welcome to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most. I'm Dr. P, Dr. Wayne Pernell, your host, guide, and coach on this journey. I am honored to bring my guest today, Dr. Tobias Bartlmeier, who has built a remarkable career helping leaders and organizations navigate transformation, uncertainty, and growth. Dr. Bartlmeier and I have a lot in common. A psychologist by training and a strategic workforce leader by profession, Tobias has spent more than two decades helping Lufthansa and the Lufthansa Group tackle some of their biggest organizational challenges, including leadership development, large-scale transformation, workforce planning, and navigating the humanity behind change. What makes Tobias especially interesting is his ability to see both the people and the system. While many leaders focus on one or the other, he understands that organizations perform best when human potential, organizational design, and thoughtful decision-making work together. Today, he is helping to shape the future workforce of one of the world's largest aviation organizations in the world while exploring the opportunities and challenges created by AI, shifting talent markets, and increasing uncertainty. We'll talk about leadership under pressure, what organizations often misunderstand about people, and what it takes to stay resilient in our rapidly changing world. Dr. Tobias Bartlomej, welcome, or shall I say willkommen, to One Sharp Sword.

Yeah, thanks a lot, Wayne.

Wow, it's cool, right? Like when you hear yourself, when you hear all that stuff about yourself, it's kind of like That's—

I'm flattered, I'm flattered. So, uh, thanks a lot. Actually, my Outlook, uh, calendar says around that time of the day, because in Germany it's the late afternoon, it's, uh— I have a reminder, I want to thank the Academy. So I, I try to end every day with a thank you.

Very good.

So I, I end this day with a thank you. Wow, that, um, yeah, I'm, I'm honored to, uh, to to be here too. Some people also call me Dr. B. That might be— so if you're Dr. P, so that might be another thing we have in common. And yeah, oh, very good. Forward to the conversation, right?

So people greet me with, hey, Dr. Wayne, and then they'll call me Dr. P. And I imagine that you're Dr. Tobias, and then it's, hey, Dr. B. So welcome to the Dr. B and Dr. P Show. Let me start by asking you, like, here's what I want to do, uh, Tobias, is I want to ask you about the work you're doing now, but also, and also the path that got you here. So in terms of, you and I had a chance to speak ahead of time, it was a week or so ago, 2 weeks, um, and it's clear that you operate in environments of huge complexity. You've done that for decades at this point. Talk a little bit about a leadership identity. In order to lead effectively during complexity, and now we're seeing more and more complexity, how do we integrate this new technology? What's— what is the new technology? Do I as a leader need to know enough or need to know more if I've got experts, subject matter experts who actually know what they're doing? Right, so there's, there's this, do I have to be as smart as the people I've hired kind of thing. Then there's the growth of the organization. So talk a little bit about— I, I like to frame it as leadership identity, like who are they. And okay, you've got this answer brewing, I can see it.

I love it, go for it. Yeah, interesting, right? I think in In former times, or when it was more about management and not so much about leadership, it was that the leader might have thought of themselves as the know-it-alls, right? I'm the best one at what I do. And unfortunately, still some promotions are based on, hey, she or he is the best at this job, let's make her, let's offer her or him a leadership position. And I think it's not like that, right? I'm actually, I'm a big fan of watching mostly American TV series. I'm a big fan of Ted Lasso, for example. And he's a very good leadership example from my perspective because he brings no domain knowledge, right? I don't know, for those who aren't familiar, he's like in American football coach is brought to, uh, uh, English football team. So totally different sports.

Very.

But he is a coach, right? And, uh, that makes him in this way superior maybe even to, to subject matter experts who, uh, who develop leadership as a, as a, as a side competence. And then I love that, and I think it, it's in, in times of complexity, it's It's on leaders to shape an ecosystem where the intelligence of the many can really unfold and where growth can happen, right? I always had— I had once had a boss who said, my aspiration is to have my people, like, I don't know the English word, right, to over— do you say overtake? Yeah, to drive faster than me on the— to surpass me on the career ladder. And, uh, The day I'm most, uh, I'm, I'm very sure that I did a good job is when some of my directs will have surpassed me in the future. And I love that picture, right? And I love that, that it's, it's kind of, yeah, Simon Sinek stuff, like leaders should not create followers but create leaders.

Correct.

And leadership, right, isn't, isn't the rank, doesn't come with a position, it comes with the responsibility that you take, and it comes as a service that you give to those, uh, being led.

That's the humanity, isn't it? That's the humanity where, where as a leader you show up in service to not just the organization, but recognizing that the organization is full of people. So you're in service to people.

Yeah.

That's great.

Yeah, it's just right. It's just— and maybe that is something that people get wrong when, when thinking about the people or the HR function, right, as, as something soft and not inherently related to business. In the very end, business is people buying products from people, so it's inherently human Right. As long as— let's see how AI develops, right? Right. AI gets true agency and AI buys things. But understanding people and people's needs is at the very heart of business. And most topics that are thought of as soft— I'm not into, for example, the hard skill, soft skill distinction. I don't think there's something like that. Uh, I think it's human skills, and they might be the hardest, uh, to, to master in, in, in difficult times, right? Giving feedback, passing on truth that are uncomfortable, and doing that still in a, in a, in a safe environment. Um, That's nothing soft. I think that is something very challenging.

And, uh, yeah, I heard one business group call it, and I've adopted this for myself, the durable skills. Durable, right? That, that it's like these are the ones that will remain, you know, they're part of us as humans. We'll learn how to do the next computer thing, whatever that is, you know, when When, uh, spreadsheets became a thing, that was like, oh, now we have to learn spreadsheets. And then it was, you know, learning the different ways that they work. And now it's so far beyond that, it's amazing, right? So, but, and what remains is how do you engage? Who are you seeing in front of you? And I think, you know, you, you actually answered a question that I I was— I had brewing, which is, uh, what are leaders— and maybe you want to refine it or, or add to it— what do you think leaders are getting wrong about people?

We may be getting wrong that employees are adults. Right, I think some, some, at least when you think about management and that whole Theory X, Theory Y thing, uh, right, are people intrinsically motivated or aren't they? There are still a lot of practices and that, that are still there in, in today's leadership and management ecosystems that are pretty much Theory X, right? Uh, How do I motivate people? You do not motivate people. You can never motivate people, right? Uh, you can shape an environment that is motivating, or that is, that, that helps self-motivation, but people can only motivate themselves. And then maybe that is something that we get wrong also in, in huge transformations, right, that currently we are job-wise, there's so much transformation. I've never seen that much transformation in that little time than is going on now. And people and leaders try to grasp that and sometimes oversimplify and say, okay, we, hey, we cannot talk to everybody about this because we need to shape this in a small circle. And then sometimes, like talking on— I'm not quite sure how much psychologists in the audience, right? Like Transaction Analysis, right? Who am I speaking to? Am I speaking adult to adult? Am I speaking eye level?

Or I love that you're bringing this up. I teach Claude Steiner's work all the time.

Or am I speaking critical parent to the child, right?

This is so good. This is so good, right? So, so just for really quick Really quick, inside each person lives the parent, the adult, and the child. And, um, and you see it in kids. Like, what's really remarkable is that you can see it in a 3-year-old that carries around their, their little doll, and they'll go, 'Now, little dolly, you stay there,' and they're going from parent to child when they're speaking to their little— yeah, uh, their, their toy, which is phenomenal. And we do that when we engage with each other, and it's often subconscious. And I think, you know, our work is to bring the subconscious to consciousness so that people actually have intentional— they're intentional and they have choices in the way they engage. So this is really great. Creating an environment that's motivating and remembering to meet people at the adult level versus being the authoritarian parent, or, uh, and, and producing a child response. Really good, really good.

Yeah, and I think it sometimes happens, or, or it's something that, that is— you— yeah, there's a danger that, that you get there, right? Once when organizations grow, they kind of distance themselves just by, by evolving from their original purpose. And sometimes you then think not of people but of functions, and right, and if you have, I don't know, I don't know the correct number, but we have over 20,000 flight attendants, for example, in our organization, and that is a huge bunch of individuals, right? So they are maybe often thought of as function or as, okay, how can we increase productivity? But they are like, as I just in a short chat, as I just told you, we are celebrating 100 years of Lufthansa and I'm still suffering a bit from it. We had a really good party in Frankfurt with pretty much a lot of people and also a lot of flight crew staff, right? And yeah, and I, my backstory with Lufthansa, I started recruiting flight attendants, so I pretty much know them or the, the type of people. And they— it's like the most diverse group you can think of, right? Back then I hired the bassist of a hardcore band, as well as a vicar who wasn't into church that much anymore, architects, lawyers, and so on, right? Who just said, hey, I have a calling to do service to people. And I have a calling to be traveling and to be connecting with different cultures. And there is so much in this huge group that you neglect when you think of them as just a function. And, uh, but so it's— you have to constantly remind you, right? Uh, it's the same with big factory workers, right? The— those are people, and they bring their whole selves to work. Let's not forget that.

No, I think that's excellent. You know, the audience spans, uh, people who are in fintech, people who are in logistics, people who are in, um, you know, just a variety— healthcare, um, and, uh, consumer goods and retail. It's incredible. And so the truth is, people are people,. And it's not people are people are people, like everybody's the same. It's people are people, not their job function. And I think that is huge to underscore. Um, I do want to talk about some of the ups and downs that Lufthansa's had, but I think, uh, and I think now is a really great time to kind of go back into your own story since you started talking about You joined Lufthansa, you were doing some HR work, you started by— I love that— you started by recruiting flight attendants and you saw how diverse a group that was. That's amazing. So talk a little bit about that. When did you get your doctorate?

Yeah.

How did you find Lufthansa? How did they find you? Just bring us into your story.

Yeah, actually, I'm, as I said, psychologist by training and really love that, yeah, that domain. So I loved it so much that I couldn't really— it took me some time to figure out which branch of psychology I would like to get into. So in the studies, I focused on organizational psychology and clinical psychology. I did my doctorate then in, in, uh, more, uh, cognition and, and education psychology. So it was about learning back then, learning with multimedia, whatever that is, right? Uh, so learning with some, some multimedia artifacts.

It means paper and Play-Doh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's like that, right?

Multimedia. Yes.

And, um, yeah, when, when finishing up, I, uh, I kind of got I said, okay, I don't want to be in that deep work cycles. And the scientific communities, they have something very special that I like in a way, but also they were a bit circling around themselves. And even though it is, I think in America it's a bit different. Education and psychology in America is a bit more actionable. In Germany, it's more education system, it's more political and not so much science-based. So that was a bit I said, okay, that I loved the perspective, but I have to go somewhere else. And, uh, summer was love that, uh, brought me then to Frankfurt because my, my then girlfriend, now wife, uh, has already moved to Frankfurt. I said, okay, I looking for work in the Frankfurt area. And yeah, uh, then I was getting like self-employed as a, as an assessor for, uh, for different customers. And Lufthansa was one of them, and the first group was flight attendants there. And that was even when I was in the last days of doing my doctorate. And that was nice, right? On the one side, I was writing a book and trying, trying to think in relations that span like 3 years, 3 and a half empirical studies and so on. And then I had a day and I had like 11 interviews a and 11 decisions taken and no strings attached. And, uh, and, and that with those very inspiring bunch of people, that was, that was cool. So I was doing, um, work as a freelance recruiter trainer for a while. And yes, somehow they, they started to make me offers, uh, and, uh, the, I think the second or or third, I said, hey, yeah, okay, maybe that's something. And I started with Lufthansa Cargo as a people development manager for the operational staff there at the, at the cargo hub. That is also something, again, very different from flight attendants, right? Those are logistics people, building pallets, breaking down pallets. And but it's really cool. I really love that. It was like being at the pulse of Germany as an export world champion, right? 30% of the values that Germany is shipping to the world is going through air freight. So you can— and that is very much at the Frankfurt hub. So if you go to the logistics halls there, Luft und Lager, you could like watch the pulse of what's going on in the world, right?

Amazing.

Rally cars from Rally Dakar, racing horses, Olympics. But back then there were some Olympic Games also that day. So there was— I still remember vividly when I did my onboarding week there, there were Olympic supplies, a pallet full of Swedish beer labeled as Olympic supplies being shipped to the— well, you know, the Olympics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's legal, the doping. It's not at least after the, after the matches. Um, yeah, and then I started there, and what I really love about Lufthansa is the opportunities that you have, right? And I've traveled in the HR function for all, for all my career so far, but I never did, uh, the same thing more than 3 years in a row. So it was like then starting out there and then taking over the team and doing change and transformation work. A lot of digitization project, uh, projects were started then, back then at Lufthansa Cargo, and I had a chance to, to kind of shape the HR part of that. Then I went over to, to the group, and there was some efficiency programs.

When you say the group, talk a little bit about that. Where, where was that? And how did that differ? Because you were doing flight attendant training, you were with Lufthansa Cargo, and now the—

now it's then to the, to the head office, so to say. Yeah, right, the corporate office. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's really a big group. And some, in some of the stations, my job was to figure out how big the group is because it's, uh, sometimes it's subsidiaries that again have subsidiaries. So you have to count, uh, count your eggs Uh, and I'm not quite sure how many there are right now, but back then it was more than 550 subsidiaries. Uh, so 105,000 people in the world, and, and very, yeah, very, very different branches that all related to aviation or to, to the airline, uh, to the airline business. So there's also a technical—

how many people total in, in the group?

110,000? 105,000, uh, between 105,000 and 110,000. So we are We have been downsizing a lot, uh, during Corona, and then now we are, um, inhaling, right, and, and, and growing again, and also growing, uh, with new partners in the group. ITA is just joining, so the, the former— that's the former Italian state airline which got privatized and now is also part of Lufthansa Group. Very, um, yeah, very interesting part of the group. Very new. So Rome as an airport is joining, a lot of Rome to South America routes are joining the group.

Is that a merger or is that a partnership?

That's a, that's a merger, that's an acquisition.

Yeah. Okay, I got you. Okay. Yeah.

And, um, yeah, then so it's like getting more, and, and Lufthansa evolved, right, from, from a German state airline to— it was fully privatized mid-'90s and then split to branches all centered around customer groups. Lufthansa Lufthansa Cargo, Lufthansa Technik for all the maintenance overhaul. Back then we had a big catering agency, IT consulting, blah, blah, blah. And but now it grew more into a European airline group. So it's, it's the Belgian, the Belgian airline Brussels, Swiss International Airlines, part of the group, Austrian Airlines, part of the group, ITA from Italy. And some German airlines too, right? We have Lufthansa.

Are you helping to manage? Are you helping to manage across, uh, countries as well? Because I would imagine the—

yeah, but some in, in, in some functions I did. I once had— we, we, when we had a functional matrix, I was, uh, responsible then for recruiting processes. So process owner for recruiting in Lufthansa Group. And that was then of course, uh, across countries. Back in cargo, it was also an international development team with people in Atlanta for the US, people in Singapore for APAC. And, um, yeah.

So I am curious, uh, when you've got an, a multinational international group with various cultures— Italians are pretty different from Germans, um, some say so, yeah. Just the way, the way the business is done, the interactive style. I mean, how does that work for you? What did you bring? What did you— how are you seeing the integration happen? Is there pushback? Is there, you know, because I've seen, I've seen some organizations that are very dictatorial, you know, you're part of our group now, you will do it our way. This is our way. There's no room for you. If to do it any other way. And I've seen other organizations that are, hey, this is our culture, we want to honor the culture you have. And without saying it this way, it's basically like you need to adapt to our culture the best you can while we honor the culture you have. So what are you seeing and how does that work?

Yeah, I think we also may have evolved in the, the style we do it, and I think it's really much on eye level and, and valuing the— we call it Vielfalt, so it's, it's the German word, is not exactly diversity, it's a bit— it's the manyness, right? Uh, so, um, of, of cultures that we bring and Right, our customers are from all cultures, and to be able to offer a good service to them, we are, uh, yeah, it's, it's just essential to, uh, to be open to different cultural, uh, parts of, of your, uh, of your employees. And I think we have the track record of really integrating other European carriers is quite good lately. So we've, we've learned, right? And, and of course there have been pushbacks where, where maybe, you know, when we integrated Austrian, and back then I was at cargo, it was more like, okay, now it's Lufthansa Cargo and Austrian Cargo. Come on, you, you are part of Lufthansa Cargo now. That's how it works, which at some of the other pushback. But I think we also like learned how it's, how it's been done. And I think with ETO, it's a good example. From, from the beginning on, it was said, okay, this is really making us truly a European airline because— airline group, right? Because we started out with all the German-speaking countries as home markets. So Germany, Austria, Switzerland. Then we have Belgium, but also in Belgium there's a German-speaking community and it's quite culturally relatively close. And as you said, right, Italy is a different culture, a culture that is, that we very much value. And I think we're, yeah, we're doing a good job there, right? Of course, there's someone from Lufthansa side to the board, but also we have Italian people on the board of ITA, and then it's really about learning from each other and, um, and not, not dictatory in, uh, in style. I don't think that it, that it works, right? Because it— and that's why we also, we keep the brands, right? It's, uh, we, we, we would never, uh, transform ITA into Lufthansa. That wouldn't work because Italian customers, right, they want to fly with ITA. And, and like, or the best, I've been working for Swiss International Airline in Zurich, which is the, the maybe the most over the long, over a long distance, it's, it's like the most successful part of Lufthansa Group, right? Switzerland is a very successful country with a very proud airline, which somehow got into a struggle and then was acquired by Lufthansa Group, which wasn't easy for the, for the Swiss people, uh, because already it's, it's a small German-speaking country, which also yeah, with— would like to keep the German part at arm's length, uh, and then were then part of Lufthansa Group. But I think that really grew, uh, together, and, and they are a very proud and, and, and strong part of, uh, of the group. But they're part of the group, and they bring their— they bring their, uh, aspects into there. And then they— I don't know, a lot of the kind of the commercial heartbeat of Lufthansa Group is taken place in Zurich, for example.

Amazing. I want to call out some things you said. I want to underscore a couple of things you said. The first is Vielfalt, which is— it is— viel means many. So I think that that is— it's a really great root of the word for diversity, and as it translates, multiplicity, right?

So that it's— it is— it is so many different things across across a broad area.

So I love the concept of FÖFAHT. Um, you said you gave— it was a throwaway line and I, I wanted to capture it, and it's, it's about learning from each other, right? So that when you've got, you've got representatives of Lufthansa and of ITA on the board, it's not about it's our way, it's about learning from each other. We're here to learn and grow and support each other. That's fantastic, right? That's the— there's this kind of, um, drive for support, which is amazing. You also said it's important to keep the brands. I watched two majors— there was a period of time a decade and a half ago that two major airlines, uh, went through. One of them I was flying all the time, and it acquired another one.. And for 7 years they have union, uh, representation. And for 7 years there was a lack of real integration. And it was really easy to say, oh, you're with this old group that no longer exists, right? You're with— you're with these guys. And, and the flight crew would go, how could you tell? Like, it's, it's a different culture.

Like, it's obvious, right?

Yeah, yeah. So, uh, they were all about not keeping the brand. And I think that that's, you know, if it's a, if it's a true acquisition and you're taking it over, then yeah, the, there needs to be a solid blend. But here it was an acquisition where it's important to keep the brands. That allows for diversification, which is, which is fantastic.

Yeah, I think we, we have in, in strategy, we kind of differentiated that out. We said Everything that is— I would differentiate nowadays between guests and customers, uh, everything that is guest-facing, so that is the single person entering, being our guest at one of our planes, that is truly decentral. And truly, if you fly with Austrian, you will get the best coffee in Lufthansa Group because they have coffeehouse culture in Austria, and that's what they stand for. And they play Vienna Waltz when you into the plane, because that's what you expect, uh, and, um, and what you value about it. It's something different in, uh, in Lufthansa, right? A lot of people say, well, I— that it feels— whenever I entered— those who have, I don't know, grew up in different countries but have a relationship to Germany in a way— that was feeling at home whenever I entered a Lufthansa plane. So Lufthansa is, as representative of something positively German. And so we want to keep— we want to differentiate and want to spark all the individuality at that guest-facing level because that's the human part.

Yes.

But behind the curtain, we want to of course be as efficient as possible, right? So it's like all seats are the same. They look different, but they are the same. Or all app, we just have one app. But if you use the app out of Austria, it will come in red, which is the color of Austrian, and it will come in dark blue in Lufthansa. But it's the same, right? It's a bit like Volkswagen does it with all the European car brands. Yes, basically the same underneath, right? They have like The mode is like Lamborghini. Lamborghini has something in common with a Volkswagen or an Audi. So, um, and still they keep the brands because it's right in Spain you will buy a SEAT and in Germany you buy a Volkswagen. And it's a bit like that to, yeah, keep that. And it's even, I don't know, when I was at Swiss, we had something like sense of, uh, um, of, of Switzerland. What is the, what is this, the, the, what do you send when you enter a Swiss aircraft? How, how does it smell? How does it sound? And so they, they really spend something, what, what, what does hospitality look like from our brands and our customers' perspective?

This is huge. I, I want to underscore that. For every audience member that's listening or watching this. What does hospitality look like, smell like, taste like, sound like, feel like in each of the offerings that you have? And as a, as an individual, what it like, how are you showing up? You know, I talk about my brand, I talk about values, vision, and vitality. And the vitality is how are you showing up for each of your values, for the vision that you said you had. And what's cool is the vision for each of the Lufthansa brands could be a little different. There's the overarching vision and then there's the— this is how we put it out there. That's the vitality piece. This is how we embody it. I really think that that's an important place to be spending some time. Like if you're If you haven't looked at your own organization in a while, go back and look at how are we like, what does, what is the experience? How are we bringing that experience? I think that's so important. I think that's just so important. We get used to, well, this is, you know, I'm doing my job. I'm running my company. I'm, you know, it's like, well, in, when was the last time you gave that some notice, which I just think it's really good. Can I shift gears a little bit? Can I ask you a different question?

Sure.

You ready? So Lufthansa itself, it's had so many ups and downs. It went through its own economic crises. It's— it did well, not amazingly well, but it did well enough to survive during COVID That was a huge disruption for all airlines. And yet the Lufthansa Group did really well. And now, you know, if we look at where we are these days, we're in this place of AI-driven change.

Hmm.

What did you notice along the way? What has been sort of the thing about leading through uncertainty? Was there a theme? Was there an initial breath holding? Was there a, we're going to, we're going to just go out there and keep going no matter what? What, what was sort of the sense of leading through uncertainty? What, what did you notice?

On the one hand, it's, and that is, I think, common to, to all airlines. They're very sensitive to any kind of disruption. On any level, right? Be it, be it an pandemic, be it, I don't know, a strike in some country, be it a war, be it, I don't know, fuel prices. And so, so, so it's kind of in the, in the DNA to be able to adapt in times of crisis and to develop some kind, some kind of resilience and say, okay, uh, we've— but we've seen 9/11, uh, uh, we have seen the, the Iceland volcano, right, where there was no air traffic for 1.5 weeks. And, uh, you wonder, okay, hey, I'm not able to buy fresh fish anymore, why is that? Um, yeah, or no roses anymore, why is that? Um, But back then it was Lufthansa Cargo, and it enabled them to really come back then, because it was at the end of the financial crisis, uh, 2008-9. So the volcano was in the beginning of 2010.

What's at the basis of resilience, Tobias? What's like— because it's one thing to say like resilience means to bounce back. At the basis of that, you're bouncing back to something, which means, I mean, for me it would be the vision, right? We're bouncing back. We have this vision that's going to carry us through no matter what.

And I think it's something like that, right? It's being connecting people, connecting cultures, like the— I'm not sure if it's an English word— the cosmopolitanism. Cosmopolitan view of, of, uh, okay, we are in Germany, you say Weltbürger, like world citizen, uh, and, and yeah, and really embrace that traveling. And, um, and also been when I was a recruiter, I, I had that pitch where, okay, you can work for a consultancy firm, you know, that's totally fine, they pay, pay you a lot of money, or you can work for an insurance, right? Or you can work in shaping a long, very old mankind dream, right? People drew flying on cave walls. Da Vinci fascinated flying, uh, Icarus. So it's in the, it's in the ancient myth. It's, it's a mankind dream, and we have the privilege to bringing that to life. And I think even though it's strongly commercialized and it, it's a more— it's more of a commodity, there still is this— once you're above the clouds and you, you like look at the sun above the clouds, it's like, uh, it— you feel that is there's something bigger than yourself. And, um, I think there is this deep sense of purpose is in a lot of people working for airlines or working for Lufthansa Group, which makes it, I think, it's a good equipment to stand through crisis and to bounce back, right? And when we look at our employee engagement score, which we are measuring. It was the strongest in, in summer 2020, and that was when, uh, when there was a decision, uh, whether Lufthansa is going far for insolvency or not. Because we, uh, that was a tough time. That was that, and it was just one click. It was one, uh, one, uh, stock owner holding a lot of stock. And, uh, like, he was either— if, if he decided to take the, the government aids which come with certain, uh, yeah, conditions, right, uh, then Lufthansa would stay, or if it— we should file insolvency. And it's a bit different than, than in America with Chapter 11, or where, where it's more normal to, to go insolvent, and it's, it's the mechanism more easy to bounce back then. That's not that easy in Germany, in Europe. And that was when the commitment to the company was strongest. And that's amazing. It was like clear. And then people, and at that day, people were in front of the head office and they were kind of singing.

Uh, there's a, there's a sense of identity in being tied to the Lufthansa Group, right? I mean, that's, it's for what I see in, especially in American organizations, is that the loyalty isn't necessarily to the organization, it's to themselves, which, that's fine, you're allowed, and you should do that for sure, right?

A personal identity, the strongest loyalty, right? Yes.

That, and that's great. And, and at the same time, this goes back to something you said a second ago, which was there's this sense of recognizing that there's something bigger than yourself and you're a part of it. And yeah, so somehow Lufthansa has created that as desirable. I want to be part of this, right? What's kept you— let me go personal with you. What's like— you've been there a couple of decades at this point. And, and, and is finishing that second one.

Yeah.

So, so here's the thing. Are you just comfortable? Is it a comfortable place to be, or do you wake up every day going, you know what, I kind of love my job, I kind of love being a part of this organization?

Actually, it's, it's like that. Yeah, I, I really, um, love that and, and value that. From time to time, I, I take a look outside, right? I have one or the other conversation with different employers, and I think there are a lot of good employers and a lot of good work to be done in, right there, good companies or good— doesn't have to be countries, companies, right, good organizations all over. Still, maybe it's like democracy, right? You say it's among all the bad systems is the best. And maybe the grass might be greener on the other side when it looks like— if you look for salaries or— but I truly value what I have. Yeah. Also having had some tough times, right, in the bouncing back from crisis, I was at the very heart of that, having managed the downsizing program for ground staff at Lufthansa itself. Those were tough times, right? And that was where you say, hey, we all value your work, we simply cannot employ all of us anymore. So it might be the best service you could do to the company to leave, right? Uh, and very emotional stuff. People who signed their severance payment contract and, and cried, right? It, uh, yeah. Oh yeah. And still, maybe a story, um, So I did that and it was like 2 years later where our CEO is running a lecture at Munich, at the Technical University of Munich. Once a year he is giving an open lecture there and everybody gets announced publicly so everybody can come. So there's always a lot of people there. And back then I still had a strong heart and I think I even was still responsible for recruiting. I said, okay, I come along. When you are there, you may not know it, but when you are there, that has something to do with recruiting. So you do your lecture, after on I try to collect some people. And, uh, I did so. And a, a woman, maybe my age or, or a bit older, approached me after the, after the lecture, uh, and said, um, hey, um, Tobias, I know you, uh, you, you did, you were the, the lead of the, we called it back then, the program was named now. You were the project leader of now, and I want to tell you something, uh, you did a good job. I, I took the severance payment, and I felt dealt with on, on, on eye level. And I consider to come back once the, the silent period, right, in the contract, they say, okay, you get a severance payment, so you leave, and, uh, You are only allowed to apply back after some, some certain amount of time. But she, she said, hey, I'm considering to come back because really, um, that's, uh, something I loved, right? And, um, yeah, so it's, it is something that was what, what inspired me back then. I said, hey, it's, it's hard, but maybe, maybe we can do it with a bit of human touch.

Oh, I love it, right? It's so— that is so, so important, you know, the, the humanity through all of it. And even when it's a huge organization with over, over 100, uh, 105, 110,000 people, there's a thread of humanity that goes through all of it. I think, you know, for me, one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast was because of that message that it doesn't matter if your organization is yourself, one person, you're a solo operator, or if your organization is hundreds of thousands, there's a humanity that I think people will resonate with that makes, yeah, it makes you special. I think it's phenomenal. We're, you know, I'm always surprised when our when I interview people and time just seems to fly. And, um, I'm noticing that our time is, is at least for this, at least for this episode. So talk to me a little bit about if people want to know more, if they wanted to join the Lufthansa group, if they wanted to just reach out and, and, uh, run some ideas by you, how could they find you? What's the best way of of, of reaching you?

Yeah, as a, uh, former recruiter, I'm of course heavy LinkedIn user, so just reach out via LinkedIn. Um, I might not be the fastest in answering because the, as you can imagine, messages are, are quite a lot.

But yeah, you're a little busy for sure.

Yeah, I'm a little busy, but, uh, right But yeah, of course, feel free to reach out and yeah, maybe give it a look, right? Look at our career pages, Lufthansa Group Careers. There are opportunities to join also, right? It's right at the moment, it's again an interesting time, right? In a way a crisis, in a way a lot of opportunities. Both. Yeah, so right. And actually it's if you step back and look at the aviation industry, it's, it's been growing, right? And, and, and it will keep growing.

Oh yeah, we're going to see it because it's, it's traveling, right?

That traveling will, um, will always be an essential part of human life.

Yes, it's one thing to connect screen to screen, it's another thing to connect person to person and actually do that in person handshake and hug and have a cup of coffee across the table. It's great. So, um, this is, this is awesome. Uh, so it's on LinkedIn, it's Dr. Tobias, T-O-B-I-A-S, uh, Bartolome, B-A-R-T-H-O-L-O-M-E. And that's how you'll find him. Um, Any last words about, you know, if people were to take your kind of leadership, it's via the one-sharp-sword way, you know, cutting through to what matters most. It's if there was one thing they could take to tomorrow's challenges, what would you say that would be?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Now you saved the toughest questions for last, right?

I know, and I'm asking you to do it succinctly. It is a tough one.

Even though we— I'm just reaching inside, so I'm— it's not pretty much in, in, in— doesn't, doesn't refer to the conversation that we have, but it's one, one of the principles I run by. One of my, uh, principles is trust. Trust reduces complexity, right? Uh, it's, uh If you establish trust among people, trust between a company and its employees, it's— that's the thing that will help you.

That was amazing. I did not expect that answer, and that is like— that's gold. That is, that is beautiful. Thank you. Um, right, what, what is the one principle that people can take into tomorrow's challenges? Trust reduces complexity, establish trust amongst all your people. That's amazing. I love that. Thank you. This is great. I look forward to staying connected with you. And yeah, me too. This is wonderful. Dr. Tobias Bartelme, thank you for being on One Sharp Sword. Excellent. This is One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most. I'm Dr. P, Dr. Wayne Pernell. Your host, your guide, and your coach on this journey. We will see you here again next time. Please like, please share, please comment. Uh, this is, you know, how the message gets out, and I think what we're, what we're sharing is, is really important. So again, thanks for being with us, and we'll see you here next time. Thanks for listening to One Sharp Sword, cutting through to what matters most with outfluencer Dr. Wayne Pernell. For more information, please go to onesharpsword.com.