Celebrating Women in HIT (ft. Donna Roach)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marx.

Welcome to Digital Voices with Ed Marx. Really excited. I know I always say that, but it's really true. We have so many awesome guests, it's hard not to be excited. It's just my favorite part. of what I get to do every week is to host Digital Voices and interact with you. And today it's gonna be super fun because we're gonna be talking with Donna Roach and she's one of the, I think one of the pioneers of healthcare tech as a woman leader leading the way, right? Donna, when you first started, it was pretty dominated by males.

Oh, it still is a little bit. But, uh, yeah, there weren't many, there weren't many female leaders in, in the industry. So yeah.

You've been a pioneer and a mentor and setting the stage and in your own right, just as a leader, woman or man, just a great leader. But in your case specifically, right, because there have been hardly any women in health IT leadership, and like you even said, even today we, we're not there yet. It's definitely a journey. But anyways, before we get like way too deep, Megan, I wanted to ask you as our producer, what do you think is the mix of female and male leaders that we've had on Digital Voices?

So I went back and I counted the amount since I started producing the show. It was about 40, 45%. I agree. I would echo with what's just been said. Is we've done a really good job of getting a good mix, but I think there's room for more women.

I like it. But I say, I, I just put my— I make myself accountable too, so I also talk about it. I'm like, we're reporting out the statistics. And yeah, we, we do strive to, to definitely give everyone a great opportunity on Digital Voices. So Donna is the Chief Information Officer at University of Utah Health, but you've been all over the country previous to that. When I think about you, Donna, 4, 5, 6 words come to mind: innovation. I already mentioned pioneer, digital transformation, you know, leadership, and, uh, being a woman in leadership. And so, uh, I'll let you tell your own story in a couple minutes, uh, just sort of how you got to where you were. But before we get there, I was trying to think when we first met. We've known each other a long time. Yeah, we didn't spend a ton of time together just because different geographies and stuff, but we've known each other through Chime.

Mainly Chime.

Yeah. I'm gonna go out there and throw it out, like maybe 20 years.

Oh, easily. Yeah, it's right around 20 years because that's about the time I joined Chime.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, me as well. I was early 2000s, and I, I know we met each other then. And then I'd see, you know, I'd watch it, I'd read things that you're doing, and you're always someone that I admired. And it's like, hey, I'm gonna keep an eye out on, on Donna there and see what she's up to, steal whatever I can, and, and leverage it. Yeah, isn't that the coolest thing though, right, amongst the CIOs in healthcare? Everyone's— I don't think I could even think off, off top of my head of one person that didn't wanna share, you know?

Yeah, they kinda stand out when they don't wanna share.

Yeah.

They kinda exclude themselves from the group, which is a little sad because we're all about like rising the level of the water to improve health to our communities. And if I've got something I've done really well, I want others to use it. I don't— it's not proprietary in that respect.

'Cause at the end of the day, Right? We're saving people's lives. It's not like we're tires. I always pick on tires, and for different reasons some other day, but it's not like we're trying to outsell tires. We're trying to help each other save people's lives ultimately, right? So it's a great community. But Donna, everyone wants to know— in fact, they're anxiously waiting for this question and the answer— and that is, what songs are on your playlist? What kind of music do you like to listen to?

Oh, kind of— I'm a folk songy person, so like Jason Mraz is my favorite. And did you know that he is like the top producer of avocados? So I just— I have to put that out there because he's a— I think he's a vegan by heart. But yeah, he's a— I love his songs. I followed him very early on. But James Taylor, I'm more of a— I love it when it tells a story and I like the tunes that go with it.

Yeah, I love JT. A little bit of Fire and Rain, one of my old favorite songs. What about any sort of life message or mantra or quote, you know, that you particularly lean into?

It's interesting because early on and, you know, raising my kids and stuff, we all kind of did, you know, what's your values, right? What's your family values, but what's your personal values? So mine were— and you really have to put some thought into it.

I—

it's not an easy thing to like come up off the top of your head. But way back, I went back to just growing up. What are my values? So I'm a loving, trusting, and creative woman. And then just recently, just because as I get older, physically I want to be stronger, you know, just physically. But also I feel kind of stronger, you know, in terms of the stance I take. Yeah. So I added strength or being stronger to that statement. rattles in my head. I say it every day. And, you know, people can say, well, that's a little corny. But, you know, look at— I love Brené Brown, and she talks about, you know, understand what your values are.

Yes.

Because if you don't, you quickly don't understand when you're leaning in or, or following your values, and you can quickly get out of step with your values.

No doubt. No, that, that— I don't think it's corny at all. I love it. And I love the whole concept of the strength or getting stronger. That's really cool. And so, uh, talk a little bit about your— you personally and professionally, but you already mentioned you had some kids. So how many kids do you have and what—

3. We had, we had 3. My, my oldest son passed away, but now I have, um, my middle son and we— and my daughter, and we just came back from Hawaii. So it was, uh, quite a good— we've been doing this now on a tradition just to— okay, this is your holiday present, your Christmas present. And so we found this time, and, and, you know, like with kids in your family, it's like But they live in all corners of the US, and getting them together and then spending a full, you know, 10 days when you're almost on top of one another, yeah, it's not an easy thing. You know, it's like you learn quite a bit about what you tolerate and what you don't. Yeah, but it's been fun. Um, we've done this a couple times now, and I'm— I think we have created a pattern to do that. So yeah.

So what's your favorite island? Is there— in Hawaii, is there a favorite?

The only island we have not been to is Maui, so we need to get there, but We just this fall, we went to Kauai and my husband ran the half marathon. I was supposed to run it with him and didn't follow through on my training, but was there to support him. I kind of let him out on it. I have to say, Kauai is like an amazing island with all of the vegetation and the snorkeling and the spots for snorkeling. I really, I like it. Hawaii is probably second just because it's not a touristy island and you can really enjoy just the lushness of it and be kind of laid back and take it easy. So yeah.

I won't let my wife listen to this episode, Donna, otherwise she's gonna be like, all right, we gotta get back to Hawaii. I'm a Kauai person as well, Princeville in particular. Yeah, north side. And, uh, yeah, it's very beautiful. But tell us a little bit about yourself and also kind of your journey to where you are today because a lot of listeners will be like, wow, how did she rise to where she is?

Yeah. I'll tell you, I never intended to be a CIO. I just didn't have that as a career growth or career pattern. My education is I have a bachelor's and a master's in health administration with a focus on systems. Family members who were like, get into healthcare. They were actually, get into the clinical side. And I'm like, oh, it's not really my thing. But the health administration side was definitely something I enjoyed. So I did that. Coming out of school, I, you know, did a fellowship at the VA up in North Chicago, which is the largest long-term care psychiatric VA, which was quite the experience. But I learned so much from that and then went along and just kind of worked my way up. I actually went back to school or went— worked at Rush. I went to school at Rush in health administration, but I went back there and kind of started working my way up. I was a manager and then a senior application analyst. I did networking and gradually just, you know, from Rush, I Went and did work at Resurrection, which is a— now it's, you know, all of these places have been kind of taken over. But I was at Resurrection, I was at Condell, I was at Advocate, all in Chicago. Then went up to Michigan. I've actually been up to Michigan twice because I moved up there with my husband when his job took us up there, and I worked at Foot Hospital. which is now part of University of Michigan. Came back, then went back, back up, worked at Bronson, which is in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Actually went to work for the competitor, which is Ascension Borges across the street, as the CIO there. And so just gradually kind of grew my career and expanse. And I'll tell you, one of the best things working for Ascension gave me Great opportunity to move around because I was in Michigan. And then they said, we'll take— we, you know, one of the New York hospitals in Binghamton needed help. So they're like, we'll just add that on to your job. And I'm like, oh, that's okay. So I went back and forth. And then I was promoted down to the Wichita, Kansas market. That was the Daughters of Charity. So the 12 hospitals there and managed that. And then went— to the Gulf Coast for a little bit. So I had the 5 hospitals in the Gulf Coast and Alabama, and then finally within Ascension went to the system office, which is in St. Louis. And so St. Louis, oddly enough, is the headquarters of Ascension, but there are no hospitals located in Missouri or right there. So that was fun. And, you know, I learned a lot. I mean, I, I was given great opportunity to dig in and understand how do you make this work in a big system? How do you do things with different other CIOs and kind of network with them even though they may not be on the same systems? I met Tim Stettheimer. Well, I knew Tim before that, but he eventually became my boss as one of the regional CIOs. I reported up to him. I had great experiences and great learnings. I still draw on So much of what I learned there. I did leave. They had a big reorganization and it was just kind of time to go, right? And then did a little consulting on my own, went to work for BJC and WashU Medical School before I came here to the University of Utah. And love— I absolutely love academic medicine just because it's— I'm a learner at heart. And kind of marrying those 2 up, like, always the basis of the organization is to create that learning environment, and that matches really well with who I am.

Yeah, I had the same experience where I've worked in a lot of different healthcare settings, but academic medical center, if I went back, that would be it for the reasons that you cited. But, you know, Donna, you just dropped on our audience like 5 or 6 key points in a career, so I just wanted to Jump back in, point those out, and see— and sit here for a second and see if there's anything else. But mobility— and I know in this day and age you don't have to be as mobile, but typically as a CIO you still need to have a physical presence.

Yeah.

But you were, you were willing. You had family.

Yeah.

But you were mobile, so you were taking these different assignments and moving around the country. And, and so that definitely helps, right? It just opens up more opportunity. If you weren't mobile, you wouldn't have gotten those same opportunities.

Right. Right.

And then being part of a larger system. So there's good things. So we don't say there's nothing wrong with being a smaller system. There's benefits there. But when you are the big system, right, you got a lot of different opportunities.

Yeah, yeah. Can, can sign up for different projects that don't normally come up, right?

Yeah. So there's the volunteering for opportunities, big or small hospitals. You talked about the networking with other CIOs, even if they're not on Epic or not on Cerner, you can still learn from them.

Right.

And then the other thing I wrote down was graceful exit, right? Because there is a time When things are changing and it's like, there's a good way to leave. And so that's part of the art too. So lots of great learnings right there. So if people ever wonder, hey, how do I have a great career like, like Donna? I mean, there's like, uh, 5 or 6 key things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you'll always, that's the whole thing too, is you can't go through a career and it's always a perfect trajectory.

Right.

And you're always gonna make mistakes. I, there's no way around it. If, and if I tell people in one of the courses I just taught, it's like, don't hide your mistakes. You may— you have to own up to it, and somebody may say, well, because of that, you're terminated. Okay, that happens.

Yeah.

And it happens more and more. So, don't— you know, you can't be so devastated by it. It's not worth it. It's like, what did you learn from it? Move on. And people will respect that so much more than if you make everything into this rosy picture of, oh, I, you know, I, I did all these contributions and I was so perfect. And it's like, ah, no. Not all the time.

You could argue that, and I got this counsel earlier in my career and I needed it, where if you're not causing a stir and ever make a mistake and lose a position, you're probably not doing your job.

Right.

So you gotta push the edges, you've gotta help transform the organizations. And yeah, you could be in a very conservative organization that, and you know that you need to do digital transformation and they're not, and you kind of like push 'em, push 'em, push 'em. And so that's what you need to do as a leader. You gotta stay, it goes back to your values.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Let's talk a little bit about University of Utah. You mentioned it's an AMC, and you're a veteran. We just heard your whole story in your career, but were there any surprises?

This is kind of— it was a little bit of a funny, like, an aha, right? So when I first got here, you know, and, and, and, you know, an AMC's long runway for the interview process, right? Your patience is tested, but it's like, if it works out, it works out. But when I got here, I met with one of the executives and they said, hey, we We want you to own our digital strategy, digital roadmap. And I'm like, oh, wow, great. Because throughout the interview, nobody mentioned it. I had kind of asked and tweaked, but you also learn, like, don't go down a path that makes the interview not turn out so well.

Right.

So, he said, yeah, we have it. And I said, well, could you tell me more about it? And he goes, well, it's telehealth. Right? And, and I'm like, oh, so that was my first surprise. And I'm like, ah, okay, well, but— and, and I, and I was trying to be very graceful about it, but I said, but it's more than that, right? And you really want me to build out a full roadmap, right? He goes, oh, absolutely. And it was like, that's all I needed was that permission to go. And so, and it was, it was like, they just, they were hungry for it. We were still in the midst of COVID so it was still a nice time to introduce it easily into the organization, but it gave me less, because so much was focused on COVID, there was less friction around what I was trying to do. So I set up the governance structure and worked at the time, it was a different CMIO, but I worked with her to get that going, get our committee going, get the direction, get the initial roadmap out there, and what were we going to look at and stuff, and put those— kind of get those visuals out and start to communicate to the, you know, the— in the high-level governance group it was, and get people kind of involved early on without, without it being too disruptive. Now, as we start to hit different points, right, there's always disruption. But I think the best gift I was given, and I, and I told Our dean of the medical school, who is actually my boss's boss, he initiated a 2025 strategic plan. And in that planning, every year we do directed steps. And so I got there and he was having a directed step meeting on, you know, the— for the strategic plans. And I'm like, I need to be in that meeting. And so I kind of hounded him a little bit and he was very graceful about it. And so— I got into the meeting and I said, well, you know, what we're going to do is take the directed steps. So there were like 60 directed steps for that year. We're going to look at all of them and see what has digital in them, because that will start to inform our digital roadmap. And we did that. We had meetings with all the directed step owners, and that was probably meetings with at least 30 different executives and chairs and physicians and clinicians, and talked through what their directed step was and what we saw in in order to put it on the roadmap. And that was the other surprise. It was like, I kind of expected to get into these directed step meetings and it being a little more like, what do you think you're doing? And who are you?

Right.

But it was very like, wow, you want to talk to me about my directed steps? You want to help me with how it fits on the roadmap? You, you're the first person who's asked.

Yeah.

And I'm like, that was just like, uh, a real big aha of if you approach it in a way of collaboration rather than saying— and we told them, we said, we don't own your directed step, but what we want to do is if we see a digital component on it, we want to be able to work with you, enable it, put it on the roadmap, bring it up in terms of visibility, make sure that we are aligned with the strategy of the organization. Out of all the people I met with, I think only one or two had kind of more like negative comments, and it was more about like the verbiage, right?

Yeah.

Like, we don't— like, you know, it was, we don't have consumers. What do you mean, Donna? We don't have consumers of healthcare? And I said, well, look at it this way, and this isn't my phrase, but you're a patient sometimes, consumer always.

Yeah.

And they're like, yeah, but we treat patients. I said, but be open-minded about it. And it's like, sometimes you have to just drop it, right? You have to Say, listen, we'll come back to that. Because the other thing was they brought up the comment, well, every time you talk about consumers or products, it sounds like we're going to Costco. And, and it was like, well, what's wrong with Costco? People like Costco. And then it was funny because a couple of people repeated it, like it would come up in conversation. It's like, well, we like Costco, so maybe we should be more like Costco. And I'm like, okay.

Donna, there again, you know what you were just sharing, you know, is really a strong leadership because there's people that would come in there and bulldog things, right? Like, we're doing this, this is digital, I'm taking over, here's the plan. And you would've gotten a plan but no support in—

Right.

We've all known situations like that. You look behind you, you got what you wanted. You look behind you, there's no one there to follow. But you took a much more collaborative style, much easier, smooth, and you still got what was the right thing for the organization. And when you turned around, you, you were supported by all these people. So yeah, I think, you know, it takes humility. That, that's what is hard to teach sometimes is it's like, I always tell people, it's like you can be humble. In fact, you'll get more if you practice humility. In the end, you'll get more. Maybe not at the first 10 yards. If it's a 100-meter race, that first 50 meters, you're probably looking like you're losing. But when you get to that 70, 80-meter mark, you know, people get it and they come together. That's good stuff. Hey, I wanna talk about women in healthcare.

So We—

because we talked about that up front and how you're a pioneer. There weren't many. How did you overcome that? And, you know, and then I want to go into advice for women who might be mid-career today, because as we acknowledge, there's still a problem here. How did you do it? And advice for those who are in the process?

I don't know if I can pinpoint any one thing. I think it goes back to my own values and sticking to it. I think sometimes you get into an organization and you go, no, this is not right. You wish you had figured that out through the interview process, but you didn't, so you kind of have to go and decide, am I going to stick it out, get the most out of it, or do I just find the next step? I think that's a lot of times— I can point to certain situations where you're working with someone or you're working on a team of executives and the leadership isn't there and there's no— you're kind of fighting a losing game. You, one, you have to exit gracefully, and then you have to also figure out what did I learn from that so I don't repeat it. Sometimes women make the decision to stick it out longer than they should, and that would be the one. And men do too. I've seen some men who have stuck it out way too long. And it's like, are you achieving what you want to achieve? Do you feel you're really a contributor in this? Because if you're not, why are you? And people will say, well, but I have great benefits, or, you know, I'm not going to leave this community. It's like, okay, but then you have to decide how you're going to move forward and really work towards it. I will tell you, I've seen some younger female leaders coming up the ranks. They are so impressive, and they've got the energy, and, and they still— I mean, they have families. I think they have very supportive spouses and partners, which that's— it takes that too. I couldn't have done what I've done without my husband, who, like, he's You know, there were times he had to step up and be kind of both parents while I was doing this. And even right now, we still have a home in St. Louis and my parents live with us. So he's retired, but he helps take care of kind of— they're both 90 and he helps take care of them. So it's like, I couldn't do what I do without having that partnership. It's also Being balanced and realizing how you're impacting your whole family when you do take on different things, because you know this: we have very these are stressful jobs. It's not unusual to get called in the middle of the night, wake up cry, you know, wake up babies, wake up your spouse, and all the systems are down, or there's a fire in the in the data center, and you're expected to go in, and because you are the leader over that area, the stress level is. Pretty high and you have to manage it. You also have to, like, almost like take a deep breath and not take it all so personally. And that's— I've had to learn that over many, many years. You're going to disagree with people. You're going to work with people you don't necessarily like. You're going to be in situations that are pretty bad. And you got to step back from it and go, this is not me. I am just a piece in this. And so— and appreciate that because you don't— At the end of the day, you don't want to destroy yourself. You still are who you are, and you have a very— you should have a very balanced life about you.

And that goes back to the values again. So super important. What about men? Is there advice that you would say to, to men, you know, male leaders, like to help make sure that there's more equity?

There are some great up-and-coming men in this industry. They tend to sometimes get the first look, right, in a job, sometimes more than the women. And I think, you know, always going into it with a little bit of more humility, like you said. It is interesting. I, I have been in some meetings where I think sometimes they forget, like, there's a woman in the room, and it's like, you know what, the locker room talk, yeah, not going over really well here. But it In some respects, I can say, well, you must feel comfortable with me being here. I just think when you look at developing your own leaders and developing those around you, always look to develop individuals who, one, aren't like you, right?

Yes.

What are you going to learn from them that they're— and the give and take? Things sometimes get out of the gate much faster, but then they get to a certain point sometimes, and they look around and they're like, well, what happened? And it's like, because sometimes you kind of forgot all the people who you were working with that got you to that point. Now, that's not everybody. I mean, women do that too.

Yes, I hear you.

But it's— that's what you have to remember. It's like, okay, like, it all— this is teamwork. There's not the individual sports level. This is really teamwork.

That's good counsel. Man, there are so many more questions that I have for you, and I'm trying to pick what would be the most interesting one. How about this? How about the hardest decision you ever had to make as a CIO?

You know, it always comes down to when you have to let somebody go or you have to do major cutbacks or layoffs. Realizing, I'm impacting your life, your family. And how do you deliver that message? Those are the, those are the really, really hard things. And sometimes when you're in an organization, but like you want to do it in a certain pace and your organization doesn't, and you're like, whoa, this is not the way I would approach it, but you have to kind of work through that. Those are the hard ones. When, again, when it comes up and it smacks in the face of your own values, because To me, that's not loving. It's not trusting. It's very— it's never creative. It's just very, you know, to the point, you know, just cut them loose. And it's like, really? Like, 1 or 2 days wouldn't have made a difference?

I hear you. We have so much commonality, Donna. That's why I feel, even though we haven't hung out all that much, I, I feel like I know you pretty well because just because your heart, you know.

Yeah, thank you.

You're a heart-driven person. We talked about so much. I mean, you were dropping, uh, golden nuggets of wisdom, uh, throughout the our whole time together. So I'll just cut to the chase and ask you, did we miss something that you wanted to share or something we talked about that you wanted to double down on? I'll give you the last word.

Yeah, the only thing is, you know, we're at like this cusp of what we could really be doing great. And, you know, I'm in healthcare and I'm in healthcare IT because I love the combination of the two. And I truly feel Like you can make a difference in people's lives. I've seen so many people leave healthcare, and it hurts. It actually hurts my heart a little bit because it will impact the outcomes. It'll impact communities. You know, it's really—it's upsetting to see smaller community hospitals leave and close up when they are really servicing that community and trying to. Be a service and to, you know, those in the community and, and to that state or that area. It's like we have to, one, continue to rise up above all of this. I think we have to continue to develop our staff and our leaders. I mean, I love the fact that my organization still allows a mobile workforce. I will fight very, very hard to continue that because I know that's what they want. And I think we can deliver just as much, if not better, in this kind of hybrid structure we have. So it's just like, it's— what I want to tell people is don't give up the hope that's there. And you're in healthcare for a reason. Continue to do it. I mean, it— we will work through it. We're kind of coming through that The bumps of it. Yeah, it was really nasty through COVID and all the things that happened, but we will just persevere through it because we can have such a positive outcome for people.

Yeah, Donna, beautifully said. Completely agree with you. Just lots of heart and wisdom and leadership. If I had the opportunity to go back and work for a CIO, I'd definitely love to work with you.

Oh, thanks. Likewise, Ed.

gems out there in the industry, and I'm glad, uh, that you're on Digital Voices. So thank you for being my guest.

Thanks for having me.

All right, that's why we're top 3% in the world for podcasts. We have great, great guests, amazing guests. So thank you, Donna, and also because we have a great producer in Megan Aylesworth. So thank you, Megan, and we'll talk to you all next week.

Thank you for listening to Digital Voices podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review. And most importantly, thanks again for listening.