Changing Lives with Data (ft. Dr. Neal Chawla & Peter Marks)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation, challenges, and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now, your host, Ed Marx.

Welcome to Digital Voices. This is Ed, and I have the honor to be the host and get to talk to cool people. Today, like Pete Marx and Dr. Neil Chawla. Welcome, Pete and Neil, to Digital Voices.

Thank you.

And really, Pete, right, I should be calling you doctor as well because you have a PhD. What's your PhD in?

Uh, it's in management information systems and medical informatics from the University of Pittsburgh.

That's cool. So I really appreciate both of you being on, and I know that you've done Awesome program similar to this. And I wanna highlight Bill Russell in particular, This Week in Health IT. So if you wanna hear about the— more about the dynamic duo of Pete and Neil, please listen in. Bill does a great job with all of his podcasts and different programs that he puts out into the industry. But we always like to start off with like the first time we ever met. And Pete, I think it was when you were still in the Army. And I think we're gonna talk a little bit about that in a second. We did probably like a Chime boot camp or something, so we got a chance to become acquainted. You have since left, but we'll get into that, and are now the CIO at WakeMed. Neil, I'm trying to remember. It's such a small world out there with CIOs and CMIOs. We must have met before.

We did, actually. This was, man, must have been 7, 8 years ago. We actually had dinner in Dallas with Jim Burton, when we came to visit Texas Health Resources. And I think you were— I think you were— you had left, but you were back in town for something.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Very cool. Uh, was it a helpful visit?

It was a great visit. Yeah, we were, uh, we were looking at work from home, where I think Texas Health Resources had a, a big work from home program. And so we had come to check it out and try to understand what y'all are doing down there.

Yeah, you know, it was funny because we started work from home a long, long time ago when I was at Texas Health. I wanna say it was like 2008 and '09, and I got such a hard time. And then sure enough, you know, and I would use this fake scenario, you know, across a highway they were building what's now AT&T Stadium for the Dallas Cowboys. And there's a major off-ramp. And sure enough, one day a gas truck, you know, a big freighter rolled over, shut everything down as a result. And we kept IT up and running like it was nothing else. And shortly after that, we then had a snowstorm and it was the same thing. Everything shut down. And then finally the organization embraced work from home like many years ago. And so we've had good success with it, and obviously the rest of the world has as well now, sort of forced to do that. So yeah, I do remember that. So the other thing everyone wants to know is songs on your playlist. So maybe Neil, we'll start with you. Like, when you just like to— like, if we were to listen, look at your playlist, what might we find?

Oh man, you'd probably find like sad acoustic singer-songwriters who had good voices, you know, or sometimes bad voices, you know, from From Bob Dylan and other more sad singer-songwriters.

So kind of bluesy. Um, yeah, I, I can, uh, like there's some Bread songs, like if you go way back, uh, David Gates and Bread, like they had a few, they had some sappy songs but some sad ones too. Uh, what about you, Pete?

Um, almost anything from the '70s. Uh, so The rock from the '70s, the folk from the '70s, the soul music from the '70s. Anything from the '70s is good for me. I think it was the greatest decade in music. I like the early '90s for the grunge. I can remember exactly where it was when I first heard Smells Like Teen Spirit. I remember precisely where I was. So the grunge, grunge, punk, all that kind of stuff is good for me.

I was so shocked the other day because I got this email. So we belong to— in Dallas, Texas, there's like a You know, a theater, and we belong to this theater, and they just announced that Kansas was coming through on their 50th anniversary tour. 50 years. I mean, talk about a '70s band, right? And, uh, it's like, wow, 50 years. Of course we bought tickets because—

Absolutely.

'70s is where it is. And yeah, I looked up— sometimes when you see the older bands, they don't pack quite the same punch, but often they do. So it's, it's fun to go back and, uh, relive those moments back from when we were in high school or college or whatever. So what about life passion or message? Is there something— and Pete, we'll start with you— is there something that sort of drives you, maybe a quote or something that someone has shared with you in the past?

Yeah, not a quote as much. I mean, I came to WakeMed because it's a place where I think folks who want to be part of the patient experience and be on the front lines of patient care, no matter if they're administrator, physician, nurse, respiratory therapist, you can do that here. And so I grew that passion when I was in the Army, and, um, I was always looking for it, and I found it here at WakeMed.

Very cool. What about you, Neil?

Um, I'll give you 2, I guess, if that's all right.

Yeah.

So I think from the professional side and the informatics side of my life, you know, I've always approached— you know, I tend to be a simple guy, and I've always approached IT and informatics with kind of a continuous improvement on, can we do things better, safer, and faster? And that's always kind of the general big picture I try to go in with. And then I think from a more personal side— and my wife probably disagrees with the concept a bit, but I'll say it anyway— is I've always been pretty good at finding magic in the ordinary. And just enjoying the regular stuff of life and finding Just the wonder and magic in it versus having to try to do big things to find it. But that's just me.

Yeah, no, I love it. It's part of that intellectual curiosity, right, that if it drives us, it helps us to discover new things. But yeah, you just walk onto an airplane, right? We take it for granted. But to your point, the magic in the ordinary, it's like if you think about the fact of this thing, this huge thing is going to fly up in the air and carry you safely one place to another. Safer than sometimes healthcare. It's pretty amazing. So tell us a little bit about each of you. So we'll kind of do an abbreviated format, but you can go personal or professional. Neil, we'll stay with you. You know, something that would be of interest and obviously how you came to be a CMIO.

Yes, interesting. I mean, there was definitely— there was no grand plan. I mean, I think probably 5, 6 years before I became a CMIO. I'd never even heard of a CMIO, you know, so there was nothing there. And, you know, I think, uh, you know, I was, I was an attending my first year out of residency in the emergency department, and, you know, about 6 months in, I just got a, a random email about a fellowship in informatics. And, you know, I was like, man, I've always loved computers. I'm kind of computer dorky. I like the clinical world, And even pre-med school, I was on the verge of going the IT route and not even going to med school. And so it seemed an opportunity to combine the two. And I ended up going down that road. And once I finished— I'll try to be brief. One of the neatest jobs I had was when I was still in the emergency department. And I had kind of a third of my life was clinical, seeing patients. And a third of my life, I was a medical director for 2 of our freestanding emergency departments. And a third of my life, I was kind of our IT physician lead back in the EMR best-of-breed days when we had just a small ED EMR where, you know, the fun part was it didn't touch everything else. So we could do project after project after project quickly and not have to worry about breaking so many things. And so in, in some ways, Those were the fun days where you were just wearing multiple hats, doing multiple things. But, you know, from a safer, faster, better, it wasn't always safer and better. And so I think we're in a different world now that it's a bit slower sometimes, but in a often a cautious and better way.

Yeah, no, that's really interesting, uh, especially, you know, the ED doc background. And you're right, yeah, the CMIO role hasn't been around all that long, and you were definitely one of the earlier early pioneers of that role. What about you, Pete?

So, I was one of the original computer nerds, 1982, with the VIC-20, Commodore VIC-20. Took some computer classes in high school the first time that they offered them. Wanted to be either a physician or a computer scientist, but when I was getting ready to go to college, my grades weren't quite good enough, so I got a Bachelor of Arts in English and went in the Army. And I was doing kind of real Army stuff, going to the field, leading troops, those kind of things, but still liked to hunt and peck. At that time, we'd gotten up to 286 laptops. And after about 7 years in the Army, I got a call from the Army saying, would you come in and do this computer stuff? And I told them I really didn't want to do it because I just thought it was kind of nerdy. But they said, nope, it's really part of the business now. And so I took a chance and— I've loved it ever since.

That's awesome. Were you part of the— did you go straight into the, like, the Medical Service Corps, or what, what sort of branch off of the Army?

Uh, I was Medical Service Corps from day one. So as soon as I graduated college, I was Medical Service Corps officer, platoon leader, uh, operations officer, company commander, all those kind of things.

Yeah, very cool. Yeah, and thanks for your service, by the way.

They did more for me than I ever did for them.

That's cool. So you all have a really great relationship. Again, I point back to some of the other podcasts, like with Bill Russell, that you've been on. But, for those who don't know, share a little bit about the structure of the relationship because the CIO-CMIO relationship is so critical to the functioning of a well-run hospital or health system. So, curious how you all structure your relationship.

I never think of it as structured. I mean, From an evaluation standpoint, I'll write Neil's evaluation, but he really just writes it himself. I really think of it as a partnership where over the past 5 years, we have developed a tremendous amount of trust in each other. We have the same kind of goal focus on patients and families. It's quite easy. We even disagree on a lot of things, but we're never disagreeable. I think the coolest thing about our relationship, and frankly, with all of the directors in IS, is that we have super hard conversations And we are never afraid to say, I don't know, I'm not sure where to start. And I think we have evolved, not just Neal and I, but all the directors, to a point where we go, hey, I got these vulnerabilities, there's tons of stuff I don't know, and everybody else just fills in the gaps. And so, it's really an awesome opportunity. It's an awesome feeling to be here working on this team.

Very cool. You both, uh, you know, you're, you're well known in industry for, for your leadership and your style and how you collaborate and communicate, uh, with one another. So thanks for setting that stage because it doesn't happen everywhere. Uh, so it's good for people to have a model. Neil, I noted in your story that you have served on the vendor side, probably a short amount of time, and it was just consulting, but you've had some vendor experience. Was that helpful to you in your career today? Do you recommend such a— such opportunities?

Yeah, I would say definitely. You know, it's, it's always worth it, the more perspectives that you can understand. And, you know, again, short stints in consulting for vendors, but still understanding what it's like on the vendor side where you're kind of the purveyor of software to a paying customer. And, you know, you, you want it to work for them, you want a partner, and, you know, you get the sense that, hey, these aren't just some software folks who are trying to line deep pockets, but they actively want to do what they can with their skill set to improve patient care and outcomes. I think, from that standpoint, you do get that side of it from working for a vendor. Even now, here in our health system, I guess it's a little bit of a different type of vendor, but we extend our own EMR to some independent practices.

Right.

From that standpoint, we've got that similar— you can see the similar piece on Do they look at us as just a vendor or hopefully not? Hopefully they see us as a health system who's trying to extend software so they can partner with us. We share patients and we can all improve patients' outcomes in the end.

Yeah, Neil, I never thought of it that way, but you're right. Yeah, many health systems, whether it's like a connect program of some sort with their EHR, are extending themselves in one way or another. And then I just wish now that I'm on the vendor/partner side, when I look back on my career, I was like, oh, I would have benefited, I think, earlier in my career to have worked On the vendor side and come back. And so I just kind of think, wow, if I could start all over, you know, or give career advice, it might be, hey, work a little bit on both sides because it's an ecosystem where we need each other. And I think it's a good gift. Now, I want to go back to the Army with you, Pete. And I know you already said how much the Army has helped you more than you've helped the Army. But what are one or two things that the Army did to help prepare you? You know, because you left the Army and you're now— you're a CIO at WakeMed. So I'm sure there's a couple of things that the Army helped you with.

Yeah, on the practical side, they really will educate you. And so, um, they paid for half of my bachelor's, most of my master's, and a PhD. And so you're never going to get rich in the Army, but they're going to educate you. Uh, and so I didn't expect that. I didn't know that going in, but I was deeply appreciative of that. On the other side, I think that they teach you to take calculated risks, and they remove any fear that you can't take the next job because every 2 years, you're moving to a new job in the Army, one of which you've never had, and you've had some base-level training for, but you're nowhere near qualified for that job. And so I think it creates an environment where People say, oh, I think I could do that, and they're not afraid to take on that next position, that next responsibility, even if they don't have the formal training. So it's a great place to grow and learn, and I think it builds a lot of confidence in a lot of people.

Yeah, that's another thing, right? If you were to start a career from scratch or like counseling a high schooler that wanted to do like health IT, some military experience for the reasons that you just talked about, And, and Neil, uh, on the vendor side, a little bit of vendor experience, a little bit of that, that would make for a really nice mix because you do, you know, you get to learn from a diversity of, of, uh, opportunities, uh, that just make you better at whatever you do. So, um, that's why I asked the question, you know.

There's no way I'm qualified for this current job, but I still signed up for it.

Yeah, I, I always say, and I, I don't want to— I'm not trying to get religious on the program or anything, but I always say that Um, you know, God or whoever you believe in, the universe, uh, calls, calls, uh, okay, here we go. Let's see if I can remember this. Uh, calls the— qualifies the called. Here we go. Qualifies the called, not necessarily the qualified. Um, so I think, and I think, you know, again, I don't want to over-spiritualize, uh, healthcare and technology. Um, but I think there's a, it's a I look at it as a ministry, like what we do. We could get rich doing this, uh, you know, at a different type of company, different type of industry, but we've chosen this for a reason. Because, you know, and I don't want to speak for you and, and Neil, but, you know, there, there's a reason why we got into this, right? Uh, on a, on a deeper level.

So anyways, and I think we need to bring that to other people. We need to always turn to people who think for whatever reason that they can't do a job or a position and say, well, why can't you do it? You know, you're probably one of the most qualified people I know. So take the risk. It's only a, it's only a calculated risk. It's not a full risk. You can do it. Yeah.

No, I love that. So what is the, I wanna go back to the collaboration that we talked about, and that is, you know, what's the one thing that makes for effective collaboration? So, you know, you know, you two obviously have it, but in general, you know, with other people that, on your teams or other individuals, leaders that you work with in your healthcare organization, what's one thing that makes for that effective collaboration?

You want to start?

Sure thing. So I mean, there's multiple things, right? And you've got to align on multiple things. But I mean, it's funny with me and Pete, I think one thing that makes us work well is the humor. I think we both like to be funny. We both like to tease each other. We both like to laugh. And so Pete talks about we can disagree without being disagreeable. teasing each other and making jokes, it's hard to be disagreeable with each other. And so I think it's good for the relationship that there's a good amount of humor. And so I'll start there. But I think underlying that is a ton of respect. I mean, I think the world of Pete. I've known him for 5 years. I see in many ways how he thinks, how it's evolved my own thinking, and how he looks at the world. And I think— Trying to always put yourself in the other person's shoes and say, hey, what's their perspective? Not only with a, how does Pete or somebody else think? But given their position and the place on the mountain they're standing, what do they see? And how can I best try to see it their way? Because people don't act in a way that they feel is illogical. They usually feel there's some logic. And sometimes, as crazy as something might seem to you, there's probably a good logic to it.

Yeah.

I'll stop with humor and respect as kind of a couple of things I think we have that make us work.

Yeah, that's great. Pete, what about, from your perspective, one thing that makes for effective collaboration?

Well, this is really a good day because I had no idea that Neal thought he was funny. It's the same. I think we mesh well, as do we with the directors and the managers in IS, and we try and spread that love, I think. First, when you're focused on the same goals, and everybody comes into healthcare because they wanna make a difference in other people's lives. And so you have that commonality that you can start with. And then I think you can build that trust through keeping your eyes on the goals, but being patient. And then I think to Neil's point, and then looking at other people who have different qualifications than you and using that as something that enhances enhances the entire team.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I'll say it, Neil is better in the gray space than I am. And I have, I think I have a very organized mind and organized approach to the world, but he will be able to live in the gray space. And when he's there, if I listen to him, I can use that to become a better leader and person and really in the end help patients and families in a better way. So it's not necessarily that one of us is right or the other is wrong. It's that if we listen to each other, we can do the best things for patients and families.

Yeah, no, that's, that's great. Do you ever have a situation where a customer might come to you, let's just say to you, Pete, and you say, uh, I know you try never to say no, but in this case, you know, you might say we can't, are unable to do this at this point for all these very valid reasons, and then someone goes Uh, to Neil or, or vice versa? Kind of like the mom and dad thing, you know, where you ask mom, hey, can I, can I stay out late tonight? Mom says no. So then you go to dad, but you don't tell mom that she already said no. Uh, do you ever have a situation where someone like, uh, tries to come to one of you, get— doesn't get the answer they like and go to the other?

No, I can't think of that. I, I, you know, so Neil has a much different skill set than I do. And so clearly in his position and because of who he is, the providers will go to him. And, and, and that makes sense because he has their background. They have a shared, shared set of backgrounds. But what we do is we spend— our offices are right next to each other, we spend a lot of time together, and so we will kick ideas around together. So he will bring in some clinical ideas of which I may not fully understand or appreciate, and I may bring in some IT things, or maybe even something from the business side that he doesn't understand or appreciate. But because we have the same values and goals, It's easy to say, well, what's the best thing that we can do here? And so I've never seen anybody bounce from one to the other. I don't perceive that we give that vibe off that anybody would even think that that would happen. I think they look at us as almost the same, but that we will look at things from a different lexicon but come to the same conclusion after a conversation.

Yeah, that's great. So let me ask you this, and Neal, we'll start with you, but it's gonna be the same question in reverse. A lot of our audience, probably half our audience, are individuals that are still developing their career. They're mid-career, and they may not have been a CIO or CMIO yet. But let's just say there is a CIO. What is your advice from a CMIO point of view to that CIO about working with a CMIO?

Hmm. Let's see, it's a good question. Um, I'll try. I probably have a few things, but I think, you know, to start, I think the, the relationship is more important than anything else. Having the good relationship, you know, and, you know, making sure that, you know, you don't get in your head, hey, I need this 1 or 2 things and I'm gonna fight like heck until I get these 1 or 2 things. And then, man, we, we hurt a relationship and now these next 10, we're gonna have bigger problems with. So I think— Yeah. Having a good relationship off the bat is just—it's it's it's necessary. You know, as is being honest with each other. And you know, man, one thing I love about Pete is he listens. And it's kind of that you know you hear it in leadership meetings—the listen to understand. But I think you know Pete does that well. And sometimes we'll be talking about something, and it's hey Pete, here's the way I see something. And he may say. he may not agree, but if he gives me the, OK, here's what I think you're saying, Neal. Repeat it back. I get what you're saying, but we've got to go this way. It's like, I'm usually good. And I think the other way around. I think we both try to really understand each other. So yeah, I think those are some of the big ones.

Yeah.

And then I think probably not getting hung up on a position, but more always thinking, What is the best thing that we can do for our patients and families? And I think that's where us as WakeMed, I think having our pyramid and our mission and culture being so strong that everything we do is about our patients and families, it would be— it's so easy for us to get away from here. I'm not gonna— I can't dig my heels in this position that I think is right 'cause I've gotta always point, hey, what's best for the patients and families? I think, as we both look at it that way, we get to pretty similar conclusions 98% of the time.

I love that. That is great advice right there. On the flip side, Pete, your advice for a physician who is going to come into a CMIO role, how to best work with a CIO?

It's almost the same thing. I think the relationships are the most important thing that you could ever have. We're trained to look at things from our perspective because we're professionals and we understand from our classical education and our experiences. But if you sit back and you say, you know, why maybe is a primary care doc so interested in this value-based care thing, and what can I learn from them about helping patients get better? Or finance, right?

Mm-hmm.

We were assigned to finance for about almost 2 years. We went from operations to finance and now back to operations. And initially, I was like, gee whiz, why are we doing this? But I learned so much and how hard it is to work in finance and rev cycle. And so I think if you can take and have an out-of-body experience and say, why is this important to them? What are they trying to accomplish? And what are their pressure points that I don't understand, uh, and have some pause around that and listen really well, I think you can do a lot better.

Yeah, that, that's sound, sound advice. Uh, look, we, we've been talking— the big thread here, uh, is really all about leadership, and there's some great things that you've already shared. What is the— you know, if you could narrow it down to one Most important advice someone gave you. Pete, we'll keep with you. What's one important advice that someone gave you?

I heard this recently, and it resonated with me because we can get on a roller coaster of highs and lows. And I think it was in a podcast. I listen to a lot of podcasts. And the speaker said, nothing is as good or as bad as you think it is. And I think what they were really saying is, you're doing okay. Things are gonna be bad, things are gonna be good, but you're still okay. And be prepared for bad news and then be humble for good news. And so I heard that recently and I thought that was pretty important.

Yeah, that is good. Neil, what about you?

You know, it's funny, for— I was in a leadership thing a few years ago And somebody, they mentioned this concept, and they passed over it within like 30 seconds. And it's kind of, for 5 years, I've always thought, man, this is like one of the best pieces of gold that ever came to me that they didn't even realize probably. And it was the skills that got you to this position, usually when you move into leadership, are not the skills that are going to get you to the next position. And I know they were talking about kind of from a non-leadership to a more leadership position. But man, I think with every area, every position I've ever had, it's been that exact thing. It's like the stuff that got you there, at least technical or other tactical skills, that's it. They're not going to get you much further. But you've really got to have that adaptable mindset and say, I'm going to change, figure out what's needed to be successful in this position, whether it's leadership and even different levels of leadership. And then, you know, being able to be malleable, learn new things, and find new skills.

Yeah, that, that's really good sage advice because, yeah, we all know people where you wonder, you know, how they got to where they are. And there's a Peter Principle and all that kind of stuff, um, and they're not going to get to that next level or didn't succeed at that next level because they didn't adapt, they didn't, uh, get reskilled or upskilled. And yeah, you have to be in that position to always Think about what else can I learn? What else do I need? That's really good. Hey, my last question around leadership, because, you know, you're both very, very accomplished, obviously doing great things at WakeMed for your organization, your patients, your clinicians, your communities. How do you recharge your batteries? Like, what's one or two things that you do that, you know, help keep you fresh so that you don't, you know, burn out, flame out, whatever? Neil, we'll stick with you and then we'll head over to Pete.

Yeah, I think for me, it's got to be my kids. I mean, I think there was a time before kids when I used to like to ski and snowboard and play guitar. And then ever since kids, I think I've dropped some of those purely for me things, at least for now. But as I've been in kids under 5 for about 10 years or so, you know how it is. You just have to be able to find a lot of joy in my kids. And now that they're growing, they're in Scouts, and I'm kind of getting involved in Scouts with them. And so really watching them grow and watching them develop is such a joy that, you know, and, you know, and I hate to say it this way, but in some ways I often don't feel like I need to charge my batteries that much because, you know, when you're in kind of your dream job where—

Yeah.

I mean, honestly, working with Pete is awesome and we're in a health system that's really focused on taking care of our patients and community. And so, you know, when you love the work you do and the work you do is, recharging your batteries as you do it, there's, there's less of a, there's less of a drain, at least that I feel.

Yeah, no, that's very well said. Uh, Pete?

Yeah, I, um, I was fortunate enough, uh, to marry my high school sweetheart. We'll be married 35 years this year. Nice. And, uh, and she really completes me. Um, she takes, uh, risks and has fun and drags me into things that I wouldn't normally do, which are just wonderful. experiences. So I just feel really fortunate, uh, that I've had that opportunity. And, uh, we enjoy each other's company. We'll go and do things and just chat and hang out. And so we love that. And then, uh, to blow off a little bit of steam, um, I do just a little bit of weightlifting.

Nice.

Which is really code for I love to pound the weights, as much weight as I could possibly lift.

You gonna show me your guns?

Yeah, no, it's— this is not on, uh, video, so I can't show you the guns, but it just It really, uh, there's something about it. I don't even, I can't even explain it. I was a 160-pound weakling growing up most of my life, and for, for whatever reason, I really, I've enjoyed doing it as I've gotten older.

Yeah. Look, uh, this, this is awesome. This is fantastic. Uh, all of your insights. Uh, I'm gonna just run down, uh, things that you, uh, said or implied just on leadership. Uh, take calculated risks, listen, honest conversations, forgiveness, laugh, missional. Culture, patients first, continuous education, adapt adapting, skilling, and the the thread through all of this you know that I pick up from the two of you. You're fantastic people. Is humility. You both are super super humble individuals. I think that's part of your secret sauce that make you who you are and you working together. What did what did I miss? Do do one of you want to close us out? Either Peter Neil and and. Just whatever is on your heart to say, please close us out.

My sense is Neil can close us out. We do a lot of things here unique that you've mentioned. But we are trying to change healthcare with data and analytics. And if you want to know anything about what we're doing, it really is focused on that. And Neil has been, frankly, our key leader in that, with others as well. And so I would close out with what we stand for in terms of clinical transformation and data analytics.

Yeah, you know, that's actually exactly where my mind was, Pete. I think we both got here 5 years ago when our EMR was probably about 4 or 5 years old. So you're kind of getting past that stabilization into optimization space. And I think the time we got here, you know, there were just increasing voices about, hey, we're putting all this data into the system, why can't we get it out? And I think it was really both of us being here for about a year Finally hit that realization like, wow, we really kind of suck at data. It's going to take a real deliberate and hard investment to get good at data. I think that's definitely one thing we've done together. I think getting good and more mature on data has led to clinical transformation and focusing on outcomes.

Sure.

It's given us a nice foundation to really actually start to do pop health where we're building the infrastructure now. And quite a lot of other things it's leading to. But I really think we got here at a time when data was severely lagging. And we've been able to put in a ton of work and effort and other in order to get to that next level of being able to do things with data and then doing all the things we can do with it.

And we have changed lives with it. It's all outcome-based things that we're doing here. It really has been one of the most exciting things that I've been a part of is the transformation of healthcare by focusing on outcomes from the data that we're able to collect and helping providers and healthcare teams provision better care. It's probably one of the strongest things that we do by far.

Yeah, you know, just to give testimony to what you're sharing, and I don't— I'm not going to remember the name as I share this with you, but I met with a member of WakeMed not too long ago. I think she's a professor And she's in the value-based care and all that kind of stuff. And she was singing your praises and what you've all done, all working together to really impact, you know, and truly do transformation. We all talk about it, it's like a buzzword, but you all are actually doing it. So kudos to you. That's why I wanted you on Digital Voices so bad. I hope, I hope all listeners can sense, though, like I do, just the fabulous leaders that the two of you are. It gives me great hope for you know, our country and the rest of the healthcare digital transformation that we're all trying to do to save people's lives and improve quality of care. So thank you so much. You got— I mean, the amount of wisdom that's coming through is just amazing. Thank you so much for being part of Digital Voices.

Thanks for having us.

Thanks for having us, Ed.

All that. All right. That wraps up Digital Voices. Thank you for listening.

Thank you for listening to Digital Voices podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review. And most importantly, thanks again for listening.