Character Outlasts Achievement (ft. Umar Ansari)

20-some years ago, you know, you decided to go computer science and now you're heading this. Like, how did that happen?

I'm never going to know everything that I need to know about this. How do I surround myself with the right people? It's not about really what you know, but who you know at this point when it comes to this type of industry. The biggest challenge to overcome when it comes to clinical AI is that kind of that trustability when it comes to artificial intelligence. At the end of the day, the clinicians are still the experts, right? What we should be doing from an artificial intelligence perspective is being able to give the right data for those physicians to make sure that they're making the right decision.

Welcome to Digital Voices, where healthcare and life science leaders explore the real work behind transformation. This podcast is about people, leadership, and the conversations that move healthcare forward. Now your host, Ed Marx.

Welcome to another edition of Digital Voices, and thank you so much for listening. I know you have a lot of choices of what to watch, or some of you may just be listening, and you've chosen Digital Voices, and I'm so honored and humbled by it. And I know the main reason you have is because the amazing guests that we have, and this episode is no different with a friend of mine, Umar Ansari. Umar, welcome to Digital Voices.

Thanks, Ed. Good to be here.

So we had— we met a couple years ago. We had this opportunity to work together. on a big project. We got to travel all over the world. It was so much fun. It was so trippy. But obviously when you spend so much time with people, you get to hang out and not only see them professionally, but you see what they're like personally. And I was like, man, this Umar guy, he's pretty cool. And he's got this amazing story, right? Because, and we'll unpack that as we go, just all of your travels and things that you do internationally. So happy to connect with you, Umar. But Tell us about some of the sports that you played. I know sports has been an integral part of your upbringing and tell us a little bit about that.

Yeah, you know, I was one of those guys that I was never good in anything, but just good enough to be able to at least hold my own. But I was never part of like any major team or traveling team or anything like that. But, you know, growing up, obviously I played basketball, you know, more from just for fun, for recreation. And when it comes to like proper sports that I played and organized sports was in high school, I was a swimmer and I played tennis. So I swam all 4 years in high school. I played tennis all 4 years in high school. I wasn't really the best at either one of them, but good enough to be on the team. And then in college at, I went to Augustana College for my first 2 years. It's a private liberal arts school in Illinois. where I played lacrosse and soccer. Again, not good in either one, not really that good in either one of them. But yeah, but later on in years, I got much more into golf. So these days I'm much more of a golf fanatic. Again, not really good. I'm about a 15 handicapper, but I like, I enjoy playing, like I enjoy getting out there and yeah, it's something that it kind of gets my mind away from things as well. And interestingly enough, actually, You know, when I play golf, you, I play with friends, but I also enjoy playing either completely by myself or just meeting random people on the course and just getting, you know, getting put into a, another threesome and me being the 4th player in that, in that, into that 4-ball and meeting new people. And it's honestly, I've met so many people just playing golf and I'm really enjoying it. So more than the sport itself, it's just being able to like meet these new people and make new connections.

Yeah, yeah, that's really cool. And it's great, right? You don't have to be the best of the best when you're in junior high or high school. It's just about a lifestyle and staying active and things like that. So that's pretty cool. And you do get to meet neat people along the way and get to be active, which is awesome. So what about life message or mantra? Are there words that sort of guide you how you live?

As I get older, not only in life, but also as I progress more in my career, I started to understand that character outlasts achievement. And when you're younger, you're always striving to get that next promotion and to move up, and you're trying to be the smartest person in the room and those types of things. I realized that character matters a lot more and is a lot more long-lasting, right? Yeah. I always say I want to be the one that's known for being respectful and being the individual that can help and be there at a moment's notice for anyone. So I really, really changed on actually my dynamic and even how I work. And it's actually brought out, I think, a different type of leadership than what I had originally been even exposed to with the leaders that I had been, that I had worked with previously as well. So I would say, you know, focusing on the character is much more important and outlasting than than focusing on actual achievements and accolades to accumulate.

Umar, we're going to jump into this, but you're this world-class world leader in clinical AI. But who are you at first? Like, where did you grow up? Because I want to hear the journey. Like, how did you become this icon in clinical AI? How did that happen? So like, where were you born? Let's start there. Where were you born? Kind of tell us your story.

Yeah, so I was born in Rock Island, Illinois, just a town right off the Mississippi River, right on the border of Illinois and Iowa. And then when I was young, when I was about 2 years old, my family moved to Saudi Arabia and we lived in Saudi Arabia for about 2 years. My father was, my father's a professor at a chiropractic university, so he had an opportunity to teach in Saudi Arabia for a few years. So we moved to Saudi Arabia and then 2 years later we moved back. Back to the Quad Cities, which is again right on the same area as where I was born. And then I grew up in Iowa. So I grew up, I did elementary, middle school, high school. I did university in Iowa. So I'm a graduate of University of Iowa Hawkeye. And then, you know, once I graduated from college, I moved to Washington, DC, where I was working for a nonprofit organization before I joined my first company. Uh, which is Cerner based out of Kansas City. Um, when I joined Cerner, the healthcare EMR company, now that have— they have been acquired by Oracle. Um, but I was living in Kansas City and I had the opportunity at that time to potentially move out to the Middle East. We had just opened up our offices in, in Dubai and, and kind of got our first, uh, Middle East contract out there. So my wife and I was just newly married at the time. And my wife was actually raised in Kuwait. And when she moved to the US, she moved into the US when she was like in 8th grade. We got married in the US and she was kind of on me about, you know, hey, let's move back to the— let's move to the Middle East. And I was, you know, American born and raised, red, white, and blue. And I was like, why would I want to leave the US to live international? And I was like, no, I didn't. And then I spoke to my dad. And my dad was like, you know what? Why don't you go for a couple years? Maybe brush up on your Arabic a little bit and and and come back at least being more conversational in your Arabic. At least you'll learn something. It'll be a good experience for you. So I said okay. We ended up moving out to Dubai, and 21 years later, four kids later, we're still in Dubai. It's funny. I talk to my dad now, and he's like, look, look, I said two years. It's time for you to come back now. You know, and I'm just like, and we're loving out in Dubai. So yeah, I've been. Um, kind of did different roles, um, all in healthcare, all in healthcare IT. Um, but yeah, I've been, uh, uh, and now I've just kind of thrusted myself into this world of, uh, clinical AI.

Yeah, that's pretty cool. So do your kids speak Arabic as well? Like, are they multilingual? I suspect.

So they're all literate. I mean, they can all read and write. We can all read and write Arabic. Um, they are definitely more conversational than I am, um, just because they were raised there. So they do have some friends that speak Arabic, and the school systems that they go through has a heavy Arabic education in there. So they do enough to get by, but I mean, English is still our first language, I guess you could say. So we speak mostly English at home with each other. Yeah.

Umar, along that journey, was there like a pivotal moment in life that fundamentally changed your direction? And maybe that was definitely one of them, like was moving out there. That's a pretty big pivotal moment, which has led to, again, a stellar career. But is there anything else along that journey that Sort of like, wow, you know, looking back, it's like, wow, that was a big, a big pivot point.

So yeah, and I talk about the story quite a bit. So my sister, who's 6 years older than me, she's a physician in Chicago. You actually, she was actually a guest on one of your podcasts, I think about it a year, a year, a year ago. Um, so she's a rheumatologist in the Chicagoland area. And, um, she was in, she had just graduated from medical school. I had just finished my second year of undergrad. And I was preparing to take the MCAT. She went to the same liberal arts college that first 2 years that I went to, Augustana. She graduated and she went to Michigan for medical school. And as I was preparing for the MCAT, I was talking to my sister just to kind of get an idea like, hey, how's medical school? And those types of things. And she said something that I don't really think she knew the impact of what she said, but she told me something. She said, listen, if there's even 1% of you that's doubting going to medical school, don't do it because it's not going to be worth it. It's going to be— it's going to be so much time spent for something that you're not going to enjoy. And that is when I transferred to the University of Iowa and started doing my computer science degree. So I ended up getting my biology degree. I did take the MCAT. I did get into medical school, but then decided to completely change track and go into the IT realm and graduate— graduated with my bachelor's in both computer science and biology. And turns out I'm in healthcare IT. So I was able to kind of marry the two. Uh, not a doctor. Um, did end up getting my master's in healthcare informatics from the UK. Just continued on this journey. But I think that was, I mean, I did a complete shift, you know, and back then talking in the early 2000s, like computer science was still a little bit more new age at that time. Um, so the liberal arts school that I went to at Augustana, they didn't have a computer science program at that point. So I had to transfer to University of Iowa and healthcare IT was just kind of coming on. onto the spectrum of businesses and industries. So I think, at least in the mainstream. So I think it was a good move. It was, I mean, I'm happy where I'm at today because of it. So yeah, that was very, very critical. And I still don't think my sister really understands the impact of what she said and how that completely changed my trajectory.

Yeah. Yeah. Your sister's pretty special person and I'll try to remember to link the video that she and I did together. She's got a great book and I'll try to We'll throw out the book there as well that she wrote, very personal book that she wrote, is really good. And I highly recommend all that. So now you're like the global head of AI solutions for a super big company. And like, how did you get there? Like, that's pretty cool. So how did that all happen that now, like you told the story, like 20-some years ago, you know, you decided to go computer science and you got your master's also in healthcare. And so now you're heading this, like, how did that happen?

Yeah, so, you know, I've always, like I said, I've always been in healthcare IT and I've done different roles within healthcare IT, anywhere from support to implementation, very technical integration types of things. Then I went into more like project management, program management, and then I went to commercial management into country and business management altogether. And, you know, during COVID we saw kind of how especially in healthcare, how things were moving much more quicker than it had probably in the previous 20 years, right? Because people were not as mobile, we had to depend a lot more on telemedicine and the advancement of what technology can now do with things like COVID and this. And then working for an organization that was very much at the forefront already of innovation and was able to be agile enough at the time of COVID to be you know, very relevant with what was going on in the world. Um, it kind of made me start thinking a little bit differently too and say, you know, now with AI playing a big role and we didn't really have much of an AI, I would say, exposure within the organization. So I kind of just said, you know, I went to the leadership and, and, and they were more than happy and embraced it and said, yeah, let's, let's do something in, in the AI space a little bit more than we already are. Um, so we can kind of stay on that cusp of innovation. So. I, to be honest, I just kind of created it and they, they, they were on board and, and I started going to a lot of different conferences and congresses. Um, and then I did additional studies at Harvard in, uh, clinical AI, uh, from the Harvard Medical School and started, you know, going on the international circuit and following in the footsteps of Edward, uh, Marx a bit and trying to get out there and get my name out there. And. What I've learned as well, and just by being amongst this peer group, uh, has been amazing. And being able to bring that back to the organization and help kind of create a strategy of what we're doing in artificial intelligence, uh, within the clinical spaces, the, the ceiling is just endless on this. So it's been, it's been exciting time. It's been an exciting time, but it's been a huge learning curve. And I, once I feel like I got it, there's like another 10 things that just come above that just come onto the, into the environment and the industry that you don't even think about. So. Yeah, it's been fun. It's been exciting.

Yeah, you're definitely on the leading or bleeding edge there. Yeah, I was speaking recently at a conference and just talking about that even 10 years ago, you could become expert in something and probably not have to continue to educate yourself and you could ride that wave. But certainly with AI, I mean, that wave you can ride for maybe 4 weeks and you got to continuously Reinvent yourself and your understanding. And so it's kind of an exciting time and I'm so happy it's worked out so well for you. So for anyone listening, Umar, that's like, man, someday I'd like his job, I'd like his job a lot. Was there a particular role or maybe a couple of qualities that you really embraced that gave you this opportunity? And I think one, I just want to call out, Because you've already mentioned it, but I think it's really profound, is like you kind of created this. So you already proved yourself. So I'm not, I don't want to steal your answer. Like as the host, my job is like to shut up and just ask a couple questions. But I think it's really interesting. I just want to point it out, but then let you answer additional perspective. You not only were expert and well-respected already in what you did, but you saw this opportunity, you saw where the world was going. So you went up and talked to your leadership and said, hey, here's an opportunity. So I think, you know, the boldness, you know, being the consummate professional and taking risks are like some key ones. But what else in your journey that someone might benefit from and apply to their own career?

Kind of coming into this like new environment with AI and, you know, having that technical background, I was always kind of just adjacent to it, just in the periphery, but didn't really dive deep into it. Having the understanding of knowing that I don't know, right? And I don't know everything, and I probably will never know everything. Early on in my career, you know, I've always strived to be the smartest person in the room, even though the majority of the time I wasn't. You know, when it comes to things like this, I had to, you know, sit back and think and be like, you know, I'm never going to know everything that I need to know about this. So how do I surround myself with the right people to have a good understanding? And it's not about really what you know, but who you know at this point when it comes to this type of industry, right? Being able to do that and help others elevate in that space as well, I think has been probably monumental and even my trajectory and what I'm able to do, right? I have a full team that is much smarter than me, know a lot more than I do, but make me look good, right? And it's been, and I would not be able to do it without them. But being able to even elevate them to a place where it's again on the cusp of innovation and being able to have the influence now on what's happening as a team as opposed to as an individual has been huge, right? Yeah. And being able to get the entire team to kind of move in the same direction has helped us shape what we want to do with the strategy that we've been able to put forth within the organization. And then also, gives me a lot of talking points as well, and I have an understanding and question, right? So I'm constantly questioning. I'm constantly questioning the why not, why not part of anything that comes up. And then when then I go and speak at these conferences as well, having that dialogue amongst the peers has been, you know, gives me a lot of thought process that I bring back to the team and say, hey, let's discuss this. Let's have this. Let's talk about this. And Let me know what's happening now. I heard this term, you know, recently in the last conference. What does this mean? And being able to get that feedback directly has been great. It's kind of like my brain, essentially the team is just, it seems to be one brain kind of functioning together, which has been great to be able to rely on and depend on.

Yeah, no, that's fabulous. And so obviously you travel quite a bit. You've been to many countries, what, like 60 different countries? And And what, I know it's going to be hard to pin down a favorite, but give us one or two other than the United States.

Yeah, so I get that question asked a lot. And I got to say, one of my favorite countries that I visited was Rwanda. I've been to Rwanda now, I think, 3 times for different meetings as well as some conferences. And, you know, I'll tell you something, every country is maybe very different in architecture and where they are in terms of industries and exports and whatnot. And that stuff will be different no matter where you go. To me, the main difference in the country and what actually makes the country is the people behind it. And what, and I went to Rwanda and I learned about the history of what happened to Rwanda and much more once I, when I visited there with kind of the, the, the political history that they've had in the very recent years. Yeah. We're talking like 30 years ago. We're not talking about 100 years ago and meeting the people there. Oh, it was just, I mean, it was eye-opening. And the fact that They seem to be one of the happiest populations, yet having something that, that was, you know, so tragic in the very recent history, I thought was amazing. And I got to meet a few people and I actually worked with a few people that had lived through that. Um, but one of the, one of the coolest things that I learned when I was there in Rwanda is, um, at least when I was there, I think the last time I was there was about 3 years ago. The last Wednesday of the month. From what I heard, the last Wednesday of the month in in Kigali, nobody works. And the reason why they don't work is they spend one day a month just cleaning the city. And so everyone is off on Wednesday, and they just pick up and clean up around the streets, in in public, around their houses, and it's just like a cleanup day. And I don't know if I'm. exaggerating it a bit, and maybe I am, I don't know. Maybe that's what I heard, but from what I hear, it's on a monthly basis. So every last Wednesday of the month, I guess, is when this happened. So again, it was fantastic to see that type of culture and I was very impressed and was blessed enough to be able to go back a few more times after that.

Yeah, that is pretty interesting. So What would you say, I know this is going to have to be general because there's going to be spot exceptions for sure all over, but what differentiates one country's success with digital versus another country? Okay, I know, again, we're being, it's kind of hard to paint a broad brush, but if you had to say like super general, what would you think? Who would you think?

Yeah, you know, another, this is also, I've received this question before, and I think the expectation from people is for me to say, oh, the technical advancements and the amount of money they're pouring into this industry. And I'll be honest, it's none of that. You know what it is? It's a mindset. It's the leadership behind each one of these countries that are looking for innovation and trying to bring the best of what's out there. And no matter how expensive or how advanced the technology is, if the mindset is not there, if the behavior change is not there, It's never gonna be successful. So the commonality amongst— across the entire world is that healthcare is healthcare. There's always gonna be people that are sick. There's always gonna be people like physicians and clinicians that are gonna be treating the individuals that are ill. The question is, how is the best way to do that? What's the best way that we can actually cure and care for these types of individuals in the populations across the country? And the way to do that is not by the most advanced technology. It's not about throwing money at the problem, right? It's being— having the right mindset in place to apply the technology to enable the best healthcare, right? Technology is not healthcare. Technology will enable that healthcare. So I think when you see the leadership being much more involved in ensuring that they are able to create that mindset and kind of set that standard, that's where I'm seeing where the advancements are happening the most. And you'd be surprised in the countries, it's not the ones, again, it's not the ones that you would think of off the top of your head.

Yeah, Umar, and I think what you're saying, the principles behind it, you can apply to individual hospitals in North America. It's the same thing, right? It's not necessarily how much money, how big your budget is, but it all comes down to mindset and a lot of intangibles that don't cost money. So, Yeah. Because, you know, I've seen the greatest innovations actually are not with the hospitals and health systems that people would think of if you were to just ask them. It's actually much different. And that's been eye-opening for me as well. Hey, I want to talk a little bit about clinical AI advancement. And we won't speak specific about your organization, but just generally, like, what are you seeing out there? Like, what excites you? Like, what's happening, you know, in that world out there? When we think about clinical AI,

there's

a—

I mean, there's a lot of, I would say, niche technology and advancements that are coming out. And I think the biggest challenge to overcome when it comes to clinical AI is that kind of that trustability when it comes to artificial intelligence, right? When we know artificial intelligence, there's a lot of potential for hallucinations and misguiding and those types of things. But now I mean, people who, before they even go into the hospital to meet with their doctor, they're ChatGPTing their symptoms and, you know, self-diagnosing before they even walk in. And as much of an advocate I am for artificial intelligence, I'm also an advocate of balanced AI and the balanced introduction of artificial intelligence into the healthcare system. But at the end of the day, the clinicians and the doctors are still the experts, right? And as of today, No type of AI or technology can read emotion, right? They, they, they, they would not be able to— I keep saying they, I'm referring to them in a human factor, but still, an artificial intelligence, uh, it's not something that, that can advance when it comes to feeling our emotion today. And at the end of the day, the clinicians are still the experts, right? What we should be doing from an artificial intelligence perspective is being able to give the right data for those physicians to make sure that they're making the right decisions, right? So when a lot of the things that we're seeing are, at least from my perspective, is the artificial intelligence being introduced into healthcare organizations initially is there to help optimize processes that are already there and has been made very, I would say, little advancement in the clinical space itself today. It's much more on the operational, how do we analyze the data and just get that data back in a format that then the clinician can make the decision, which is absolutely the right thing to do because we need to make sure that the artificial intelligence has the trustability behind it before you actually have it start making decisions. I do think there will be a point where AI will start making the decisions, but I don't think there will be ever a point where you can take the human completely out of the loop, right? You still need to have that. Human intervention in there, right? You know, one of the questions whenever you walk into an ED and you have some, let's say, pain, the doctor will ask you, you know, tell me your rate your pain from 1 to 10, which is a very relative question, right? A 7 to me is gonna be very different than a 7 to you, and AI will not know that. But that doctor who, you know, probably has some of your medical history and may know you more than just that one visit would be able to at least say, oh, well, 7 for Umar is probably, you know, it's severe, and a 7 for Ed is not so bad, right? Because his pain tolerance is much higher than ours is, for example. So something like that where— so the human will still always need to be in the loop. So I think we are making that shift now that operational AI is getting now fully onboarded and fully adopted. And now as we're making that transition into clinical AI and what we're doing to help the clinicians make those decisions as well is what's going to be the important piece now. Statistically, if you look out there, Ed, today, doctors, when they're making clinical decisions, they're only using 3% of the data that they have access to. Hmm. Now, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm not saying that 3%, they should be using more. What I'm saying is that, and what I'm questioning is, is it the right 3%? Right? And that's the AI, I think, where we can use AI to make sure that it's the most relevant 3% to ensure that doctors are making the right decisions. Yeah, so it's funny, funny you asked me that question because literally about 3 weeks ago, uh, um, uh, we're gonna— we're about to head out for a vacation. And one of the things that my parents made us do before we left for vacation is we had to clean the entire house. We had to clean our bedrooms, we had to make sure all the dishes were put away, vacuum. Everything, dust. And I— and back then when I was— when I was a kid, I'm like, what does it matter? We're leaving. Who cares if it's clean or not? And I found myself doing the exact same thing. When you come back into your house and it's a clean house, it's a different feeling, right? And so I had the exact same conversation with my kids literally 3 weeks ago because we were about to head out, uh, on a vacation. And I said, hey guys, all right, today is cleaning day. We're cleaning the entire house. We're gonna come back to a clean house. And they asked me the exact same questions. But it, you know, it's, and it's different when, you know, it's your own household, right? When it's your own household and you're the, and my wife and I being the head of the household, coming back and knowing that this is our home that we're coming in is different than when you're a kid, right? When you're a kid, you're just like, ah, you know, whatever. You don't really appreciate the things that you have. When you're an adult, you kind of appreciate more of the things that you have. Uh, and when you appreciate the things you have, you want to take better care of it. So. One of the things that that taught me though was that, uh, is that you leave things better than you find it, right? And I'll tell you another story as well, and it's specific to— with my, my father would always push this. It's about, you know, leaving things better than you found it. My father is probably one of the most generous people in this world. I mean, there are so many things that he's done that we don't even know about, and people who have come up to me who, who were distant relatives of mine that my father's helped out that I didn't even know. One of the things my father would do is if anyone, if someone's car broke down or anything like this, the first thing he would do is he'd offer the car. He'd be like, hey, take our car until your car gets fixed and bring it back. So I remember one time we had a huge conversion van and one of his friends was driving through Iowa and stopped by and something happened to his car and his car broke down. And on our conversion van, I remember on the right front wheel, there was like a huge gash in it. And that my dad hadn't gotten fixed yet. So he actually gave that van to his friend and said, yeah, whenever your car gets fixed, just bring it back. So he kept it for 2, 3 days and he brought it back. And my dad calls me, my brother outside, and he said, look. And we go and look and that part of the fender was completely fixed. He's like, this is what I mean. He's like, that guy had no reason to go fix this, but he left it better than he took it. He's like, And that example has sat with me since that day. I think I was probably like 12 years old at the time, but it really makes a difference in how we even approach people at this point as well.

No, I love that. And having met both you and your sister, I'm sure your parents are pretty great. They'd have to be to have kids like you. So that's pretty cool. Hey, we talked about so much. Character outlasts achievement. I love that. Kind of one of your mantras. We talk a lot about what it takes to be a great leader and a person really, you know, the humility, elevating others, taking risks, helping, asking questions, why not? And then we talk a lot about what it's like, you know, on the global stage and to travel and what the insights from all the different countries. And as you mentioned, and I think it goes the same with organizations, it's all about the people at the end of the day, you know, no matter what country or how much money someone might have to invest or technology. And then your approach to AI, kind of this sense of balance, which was really good. And not about how much AI, but really like, is it accurate? Is it the right sort of AI? And, you know, just leaving things better than you found them. And that's the way you live and that's the way you were raised. Umar, we covered so much ground. What did we miss or anything you want to double down on? I'll give you the last word.

I think the one thing that I would want to put out there is that, you know, I feel like You know, career and those types of aspirations are very, very, very good and very important to have, but not more important than family. And over the last 10 years or so, like, I've realizing it more and more day to day as my kids get older and older as well. And one of the things that we're taught when I was young is that there's 3 stages of childhood and being a parent. And, uh, it's like the first 7 years of a child's life, you are the nurturer. The second 7 years of a child's life, you are a disciplinarian. That's when you're kind of teaching them what's right and wrong. And then the last 7 years, you know, until they become an adult, like the age of 21, you're a friend. And right now I'm kind of entering that friend stage with all my kids. My eldest is now— she's 19. 20, about to be 20. My youngest has just turned 13. So they're all kind of in that friend stage and I want to enjoy that. And it's been, you know, it's hard to be a parent, but it's nice to see when you get to this phase where you're actually friends with them. And, you know, I talk about sports and I told you I was never, you know, that good of a of a basketball player. But I'll tell you right now, as long as I'm just this much better than my sons at basketball, I'm happy. And I show no mercy. I show no mercy in that. But, but it's coming. It's coming. My boys are now 13 and 15. And I mean, they're— are they at any point now? They're, they're just gonna, you know, mop the floor with me. And but that'll be, that'll be a, a, another, uh, just an, uh, another phase of life we have to go through. So. It's, I would say, you know, no matter how much we talk about career and leadership and it, what my, I mean, the whole reason of what I am, what I am able to do and why I'm able to do it is because of what I have at home. And that includes not only my wife and my kids, but also my parents, right? And the fact that their support has gotten me to where it is, and that's the most important thing. So I think that's probably the last thought I would want to leave it, no matter what I do in the worldly life. The, the, the family is what's keeping me grounded.

Love that. Umar, thanks for being a guest on Digital Voices. You're a great person, great man, great leader.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for listening to Digital Voices. We hope today's conversation sparked ideas, reflection, and connection. Subscribe on YouTube, Apple, and Spotify Podcasts so you don't miss an episode.