Embracing Chaos and Uncertainty in Healthcare (ft. Michael Hasselberg)

Thanks for tuning to Digital Voices Podcast, where we chat digital transformation challenges and opportunities across healthcare and life sciences. And now your host, Ed Marx.

Hey everyone, it's Ed and welcome to Digital Voices. So excited for 2 reasons. One, I have an amazing guest, but before we get there, I just wanna thank the audience for tuning in. By the time you hear this, we will have exceeded 1 million downloads. I don't know, this sounds like a big number. Michael, what do you think? 1 million, it sounds like a big number.

That's an amazing number. That is an amazing number.

I don't know what to compare it to, but it took a few years to get there. But we're number 8 right now on Apple. It changes every week. So, on Apple for tech, number 8. So, I just want to thank the audience because it's all about the audience and great guests. So, let me formally introduce Dr. Michael Hasselberg. Again, Michael, thanks for being on Digital Voices.

It's so great to be here. I'm so looking forward to the conversation.

I am too. You're like this icon in the industry, and you're just— you know what's better than all the accolades, which we'll put in the show notes, and I think people already know about you, but you're just a really good human, and I appreciate you.

Well, thanks, Ed. I feel the same about you.

Yeah, so we were talking off script earlier about the first time we met. We can't really remember, but we definitely known each other for a long time. I should have looked at, you know how LinkedIn has that capability to figure out when you first connected on LinkedIn, and that would give us some clue. But it's been many, many years. We'd see each other at conferences, stuff like that. And, you know, you're a prolific writer and you're just a smart person that I follow. But Michael, the most important question of the entire podcast is, What music do you listen to? What songs are in your playlist?

Oh, that's a great question. I have a very eclectic taste. It ranges from the Beach Boys and Queen to country music, Luke Bryan, Kenny Chesney, to Dr. Dre and Jay-Z. So I have eclectic music choices, all dependent on what's my mood for the day.

Yeah. I like that. And I can relate to a lot of the music you mentioned. So in honor of Brian Wilson, who recently passed, so we're recording in June of 2025, favorite Beach Boys song?

Kokomo.

Oh yeah.

Kokomo. Always when I need to like think about another place, you know, love Kokomo.

Yeah. It's got a really nice rhythm. It's very chill. I like that. And let me ask you, what about Queen? Like favorite Queen song?

Ooh, you know, I've got lots of favorite Queen songs, but, you know, Under Pressure, you know, is one of my favorites. Of course, you got Bohemian Rhapsody and We Will Rock You. But yeah, you know, I could listen to Queen all day long.

Yeah. Talk about innovative. Both Brian Wilson, both— I mean, it's funny you picked those bands in the first couple that you selected because They were truly innovative. I mean, you don't think of Beast Boys as innovation, but Brian Wilson, definitely super innovative. The music he came up with, how he did it. And then Queen, of course. So yeah, that is super interesting. What about life message or mantra? Are there words that you live by or quotes that you like?

Yeah, it's always been driven into me, you know, you work hard, you know, if you work hard, good things will happen. And, you know, I've lived by that my whole life, instilled by my parents. And I truly believe that, you know, if you work hard, you do the Right things, good things will happen.

For sure. Yeah. So, yeah. So, tell us about grow— where'd you grow up and tell us, I wanna know about your parents.

Yeah. You know, born and raised in Rochester, New York. You know, I've lived here my whole life and so proud of my community and so proud of Rochester. You talk about a town that innovates. I mean, Rochester, in my opinion, put innovation on the map with, you know, the Eastman Kodak Company. And we would not have digital technologies if it wasn't for, For Eastman Kodak, but you know my parents did not have the opportunity to go to college. So I was the first in my family to go to college, and my my parents were very hardworking individuals. You know, I were you know they worked multiple jobs, and they really had a strong emphasis of they they wanted me and my brother to have the opportunities that they did not have, and education was extremely important to them. You know, we needed to you know do well in school. School was always a priority, and you know I just remember how hard. They worked. You know, my dad, my dad is my hero. You know, he is this really unique, brilliant guy. You know, he's this guy who, you know, when he was a teenager, he built a Model T from scratch. He went to junkyards and built a Model T. He went on, he became a pilot and flew Cessnas and taught people how to fly Cessnas. But the really cool thing, you know, and I started off with the Eastman Kodak Company because it's a It's a staple in Rochester, is the Eastman Kodak Company saw something in my dad. And when he was in high school, he did an apprenticeship there. And despite, you know, not going on to college, you know, they hired him right out of high school in essentially an engineering role. And my dad was handpicked by Steve Sasson. And so Steve Sasson is the inventor of the digital camera. Steve Sasson had essentially an innovation R&D team, and that was the team my dad worked on. And so my biggest things that happened to me very early, Kodak had their Take Your Kids to Work Day, and I still remember going into work and seeing the innovation team that my dad worked on and all the kind of cool stuff. And yeah, that left a lasting impression on me. So I had a great childhood and great parents. And yeah, it's again led to that mantra. If you work hard, you do the right things, good things will happen.

Wow. And did both your mom and dad get to see you get your PhD?

They did. Yeah, they absolutely did. And, you know, the biggest accomplishment when I reflect on the things that I've been able to accomplish, the thing that is most— that I'm most proud of was I was asked several years ago to come back to be the commencement speaker at the School of Nursing that I received my PhD, and my parents were in the audience.

Wow.

And it was just a wonderful experience for them to be able to share in that moment with me. And I was so honored to be able to come back to my alma mater and to have the ability to speak to the future nurses around, you know, where I thought healthcare was going from an innovation standpoint and how they were poised be the leaders in driving that.

I love that, man. You're making me tear up a little bit. That's cool. I mean, because yeah, your parents, I kind of relate with on the parent side, you know, they make all this investment in you and, you know, want you to have a better life and have this education. And then you get, you know, your doctorate and stuff, and then you come back to the school and you're doing the commencement address. I mean, that's pretty, that's pretty rockstar stuff right there. So how did you get into healthcare? I don't think your parents were, certainly your dad wasn't. So How did you get into healthcare?

Honestly, it was a girl. You know, I, I was chasing a girl who, you know, I had a crush on in high school who was a year ahead of me. And she knew exactly what she wanted to do with her life. I had no idea what I wanted to do. She was going to be a nurse and she graduated the year ahead of me and went into nursing school. And the year after I was— when I had to start applying to colleges was You know what I'm gonna do? You know, nursing. Yeah, that sounds like a great path. And, you know, it was, it was the best decision that ever happened to me, you know. So yeah, I, it was, it was a girl from the start.

And did anything ever happen with that particular girl?

No, no, no. She, you know, I mean, we lost touch, you know, very quickly. And she suspect has gone on and done Great things. And yeah, you know, got into nursing school. You know, again, I was the first in my family to go away to college. And actually how I ended up in psychiatry was, you know, I had to figure out a way to pay for college and the University of Rochester at the time, I did not go to nursing school there, but they had a program at the health system that if you worked your summers and weekends and holidays as a nurse's aid in the hospital system, they would help pay for nursing school. It didn't matter where you went. And I took advantage of that program. And you were at the mercy of, you know, them deciding where they needed you the most. And I got put in, um, while in nursing school and coming back home on my weekends and holidays, I got put in inpatient psychiatry. They had the biggest need. And that's kind of how my career just ended up kind of staying in psychiatry was that early experience.

Yeah, that's super interesting. And obviously you had this tech background in a sense, right, from your dad. So eventually these 2 things come together. So tell us, what was— was there a catalyst that finally moved you just from this clinical practice to the digital side? Because today, you know, I think everyone knows you're Chief Digital Health Officer. Yeah. So was there a moment in time that made that happen?

Yep, absolutely. So You know, after, you know, working as a nurse's aide and working as a nurse, I ended up going on and becoming a nurse practitioner. You know, it's actually started my career in a very rural part of New York State because at the time I finished my psych nurse practitioner, the NP movement was still new.

Yeah.

Like, people didn't know what to do with nurse practitioners. And so there were no jobs really in Rochester for me. So I had to drive 1.5 to 2 hours one way to go down to a very rural community in New York State to deliver care. And that was the first experience that essentially really drove my why.

Yeah.

Because I was it. If you needed a psychiatric medication, I was the only person prescribing those meds for 6 counties. So, I did the outpatient clinic, I did all the nursing homes, I did the jails. And so, right out of school, I was kind of getting thrown to the fire and I loved it. And what I also loved was how grateful the communities were that I served and how much they persevered. And they loved that I would come down and care for them in those communities. And I quickly realized that if there wasn't a person like me who was willing to make that drive, these folks wouldn't have got care. So that was my first why. But while I was in my MP program and before I graduated, I had a professor who came up to me and said, you're really smart. Would you consider getting a PhD? I wasn't considering it, but I said, sure, why not? So we'll give it a shot. So I started my doctorate the semester before I graduated with my master's in my MP. And I loved learning and super inquisitive. What I was really passionate about from a doctoral standpoint was pharmacology. in Alzheimer's disease. So that was from my experience as a nurse where I worked on a geropsych unit. And I was just appalled with the way we managed Alzheimer's disease and felt like there's gotta be a better way we can find a cure for this disease. And I became really interested in pharmacology and I was trained as essentially a clinical trialist. And I was gonna find the next, you know, be a part of finding the cure for Alzheimer's.

Wow.

So when I started my PhD, realized like, hey, most doctoral prepared nurses, their careers are working in schools of nursing and teaching at the graduate level. And so that's when I said, I gotta learn to be a nurse practitioner. I took a leave of absence, went down to work in this rural community, missed the PhD and said, I'm gonna go back and continue my PhD while working. And my wife gave me an ultimatum. She said, Either you gotta give up your rural practice or you gotta give up the PhD 'cause you can't do both.

Yeah.

So gave up the rural practice, came back to Rochester to finish my PhD, and I worked in the emergency department 'cause it allowed me to work overnights and weekends and do my PhD work during the day. But when I graduated with my PhD, the School of Medicine really embraced me and put their arms around me as probably because Not a lot of nurses at that time did pharmacology research. It was mostly physicians, and those were my colleagues. And so I was, you know, one of the first and only nurses at Rochester that ended up taking a primary faculty appointment in the School of Medicine. And my secondary appointment is in nursing. However, the chair of psychiatry at that time said, you know, listen, our health system is growing its geographic reach. I know I'm not going to be able to get psychiatrists out into these rural communities. I want to have you join faculty, but your Alzheimer's pharmacology research, I want you to put that up on the shelf. I want you to develop telemedicine for our department. And I knew nothing about technology, nothing about telemedicine. This was way before telemedicine was cool or even reimbursed in my state. And I really wanted an academic appointment, so I was like, I'm your guy. And that's how I ended up into the tech space.

Very cool. That's right. I forgot to mention you're a professor as well.

That's cool.

That's still on my bucket list. It's like, ah, what else do I want to be? A professor like Michael. So do you still practice clinically? Do you still see patients or anything?

No, I had to give up. And that was probably the hardest decision that I've had to make in my career thus far. I had to give up my clinical practice. you know, about 6 years ago. And it was mostly because I'm driven by impact. Like what gets me really excited is, you know, I want to transform healthcare at, you know, big scale. And like, that is what keeps me going every day. And I was a great clinician and I love seeing my patients, but I, you know, I wanted to reach more people.

Yeah.

And clinical work always bled into, you know, the transformation stuff I wanted to do, the academic stuff I wanted to do. And it really, I wasn't able to fully kind of invest myself on that side. And as I continue to grow in my leadership in my system, I had to make that decision of, you know, I gotta put the clinical side, I gotta take a break from that, and I really gotta focus in on the transformation stuff. And so it was a tough decision and I miss it quite a bit. I still get to keep my fingers in and get to participate in some tele-mentoring you know, clinical roundtable stuff, which helps me kind of feel like I'm still, still a clinician. But, uh, yeah, no, that's when I had to give it up.

Yeah. And it sounds like you have a great supportive, uh, partner in your wife, you know, who's helped you with some of those, uh, decisions and helping prioritize. Yeah. 'Cause it, and it, 'cause it's hard to do so many different things. And, um, so that's always good to have a partner like that. Let's pivot a little bit into, uh, digital. So some of the digital things, what are, What are one or two cool things that you're allowed to share that you're working on today?

Like every health system in the country, I mean, you probably can't have a podcast without AI coming up and generative AI. And we're leaning into it and we've leaned into it really, really early. And at this point, ambient documentation is table stakes. If you don't have ambient documentation, you are well behind the curve. We, like most, have had really big success with ambient documentation, and it's made the lives of our providers much better. However, what really is exciting me, and it's actually bringing me back to my roots, is what are we going to do on the nursing side? Ambient documentation isn't really well set up for, at least language ambient documentation, for success with nurses just because We were trained differently and we don't talk through our assessments when we are seeing patients in the hospital. As a nurse practitioner, as a provider, I talk through my head-to-toe assessment, but not as a nurse when I'm going into the room and checking a wound. So, we've been spending a lot of time really reimagining what the future of nursing is going to look like to the point where, you know, we had a really fun event during Nurses Week that was just about a month ago.

Yeah.

We held a hackathon, and that was between our nursing practice, our school of nursing, our nursing informaticists, and our innovation team to really highlight what AI could potentially do and where were the opportunities and where were we going to lean in and start our strategy. And so things that we're working on and super excited, computer vision and generative computer vision. So I see that is going to be at the forefront of really supporting nurses from a documentation standpoint. We're really thinking about The stupid stuff that's been put on nurses' plates over the years and fully automating that with generative AI foundation models. And so that has been a lot of fun, super rewarding, and that is starting to bring me back to my roots because, you know, I've, I've in some ways been a little bit, you know, peripheral to nursing over the last 15 years of my career.

Yeah. Yeah, naturally. No, this is great. What, what do you do personally? Because that's always the challenge for, for leaders, including myself. What do you do personally to make sure that you don't become the obstacle, right? Because you get stuck in your ways or, you know, a lot already and you could like, you could rest on your laurels, but you've gotta be out there, especially in your role, like thinking the future. What, what do you do personally that helps you like maintain that so that you don't become, yeah, sort of that let's not change cuz everything's fine the way it is.

Yeah, you know, great question. I mean, I love being on a team. Like, I believe healthcare is a team sport. It's not an individual sport. University of Rochester. Yeah, I like— we are, I think, innovators and at the forefront, but it's not going to be the University of Rochester alone that transforms healthcare in this country. It's not going to be big tech alone or retail or venture capital or private equity. You know, it's going to be a combination of all of those things. And so, I have this wonderful opportunity at the University of Rochester, a wonderful institution that embraces me to go out and see other things that are happening in the country and to interact with other verticals like retail, like big tech, like venture capital and the startup ecosystem. Go visit other health systems out on the West Coast that are in more capitated reimbursement models and, you know, identify where we can partner and also, you know, not have to reinvent the wheel back home, you know, get to see what's working in other places. And so, you know, that is one of the things that I get to enjoy is, and I get to learn so many things from others, so many other smart people around this country. And that is most important. Like, you can't just get stuck in, you know, your silo just in the University of Rochester and you get stuck into groupthink because that's going to really hold you back from doing the transformation that needs to happen.

Yeah, no, that's good. I wanna sort of end our time together talking about leadership role. Did something early in your life like really help you in terms of develop you as a leader or set you sort of on this leadership path? Was there an early life experience?

No, you know, I think it was, you know, really a collective of, again, getting back to my roots and my parents, you know, them really wanting more for me and my brother and them demonstrating the work ethic that's needed to be successful was well instilled in me, but also again, the importance of education and academics. And I always say I'm an academic through and through. Like, I love being an academic. I believe in science. I believe in the mission behind academic work. And I really feel like, you know, academic health systems are really poised to be the platform that can drive transformation. And so when I think about my leadership journey, it was You know, always being inquisitive. And that's the other great thing about an academic setting is it's embraced, you know, creativity and inquisitiveness is a part of what we value. And having that opportunity to explore and learn new things and really work hard has, I think, really prepared me well to, to, to be a leader and being, you know, authentic and also knowing I don't know everything.

Yeah.

And finding those, those really, really smart people that, again, get to join my caravan and be a part of the team around wanting to do something that's way bigger than me, you know, way bigger than, than any one individual, that, that collective. And so I've just like have found the right people that have a very similar why, you know, and, and that has really, I think, allowed me to continue to grow as a leader.

Yeah. Well, this next question may be sort of similar answers. What would you say, and what maybe— what did you say when you gave the speech, you know, to the graduating class? What are one or two things that you would encourage the next generation of leaders? What did you tell them? Yeah, maybe we'll just go there. Yeah, what did you tell them?

You know, there's a lot of uncertainty right now and a lot of confusion and chaos that's driving a lot fear and a lot of worry and a lot of anxiety. And, you know, what I say to my mentees is, you know, chaos is not always a bad thing. You know, it's actually during times of chaos that you can be disruptive. You can do things that are transformational. There's opportunity. It's actually when times of things are stable that there becomes a lot of complacency.

Yeah.

And, you know, driving change and doing innovation becomes really, really hard to do. You know, we all know that healthcare can be better in this country. I think everybody across the board can agree upon that. And so, you know, I tell the next generation that's coming up, embrace the uncertainty, embrace the chaos, identify, you know, where those opportunities are and just, you know, lean in, you know, let's, you know, let's make it better. And so, yeah, that's something that I truly believe. And I think it's a really, really exciting time. It's like the perfect storm that is happening from a technology standpoint, you know, where, where we are as a country, you know, where, where healthcare is going and consumerism, that like we can do something really transformative at a large scale that's going to, to make all of our lives better. And to me, like, what a great time to be in healthcare.

For sure. Michael, you're, you're a very empathetic person. You know, it just comes out in who you are. Is there something that you do has— it may be subconscious, but helps maintain the humanness as we do all this tech cool stuff, you know, the AI and all that kind of stuff. But at the end of the day, you're still very human and authentic. Any words of wisdom there? Because maybe it's natural for you, but for most people, it may not be so natural.

You know, I love learning about other things and other people. And so when I think about You know, trying to drive change, which is a really hard thing. I love storytelling. I love telling stories, and I love connecting with my audience and understanding who they are and breaking really complex things down to something that they— that's meaningful for them. They will understand. And it may be some completely disparate vertical. But taking that story and then making the connections to where that fits into healthcare and the future of healthcare, that's, I think, really allowed me to reach that humanness of others and really kind of making those connections. So I will tell stories about, you know, retail transformation and how we can equate that into healthcare and the banking industry and—

Yeah.

You know, like things that you wouldn't connect with healthcare, but people understand that because they experience that every day. And so, to me, you know, the biggest tool you can have in your toolbox as a transformational leader is storytelling.

Yeah. I love this, Michael. I myself, I hope my audience the same way, I feel like super energized, excited, refreshed after listening to you share from your heart. Thank you so much for being our guest. I mean, we talked about a lot of things. Everything from the genius of Freddie Mercury, uh, Brian Wilson. And then we talked about work hard mantra, right? Uh, our parents are, we're, we're both blessed to have parents like that that really instilled that in us. And then we talked about how your career began. It all, it all came down to a girl and, uh, you chased that girl. So we, we need to find her and just thank her as an industry for Dr. Asselberg. So, and then we just talked a lot about your career and how you sort of morphed and you changed and you had these different experiences and you, then you finally melded both Tech with clinical and bam, you're one of the leading transformers in our industry. And then talked about some of the cool things that you're doing, especially focused on nurses, cuz we, you've done great things for docs already. We can't forget the nurses cuz I believe that's where healthcare really, that's where the rubber meets the road. So I'm, I'm glad about that. And then we talked about how do you best prep and leverage transformation? And you talked a lot about, hey, make sure you embrace, look at other verticals. What are they doing and what what might we be able to bring over to healthcare? Go look at other health systems. Think of yourself as being part of a team, not just yourself. Go and see what other, again, industries and health systems are doing and just seeing what's out there in the world. Don't become insular. And we talk a lot about, again, leadership and words of advice for aspiring leaders. I will find your commencement address and then I'll try and drop it in the show notes if I could find it quickly. And then, yeah, embrace— and what you said, embrace chaos. I mean, that is so, so critical, not only for new grads, but people like us, right? Like mid-career, to late career, and then ID opportunities. And then we talk about empathy and storytelling and just being a connector of people and getting to hear people's stories. What did we miss, or is there anything you want to double down on? I'll give you the last word.

Oh my gosh. I can't believe you remembered all of that. You know, last word, you know, I'm going to double down on what an exciting time to be in healthcare.

Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Thanks for being our guest.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you for listening to Digital Voices Podcast with Ed Marx. If you enjoyed this If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe on your preferred streaming service and leave a rating and review. And most importantly, thanks again for listening.